Hello again pokemon online forum! I posted a rmt 2-3 months back, but since BW2 was released it was useless against most common threats (new genies, more rain, techniloom etc.). Since then I built a new team that has been working quite well in the new metagame.
1. Team idea:
As before I wanted 2 walls that would be able to take hits and provide enough support to switch with ease. Since rain is used a lot, the 1st poke of choice was Ferrothorn. As the 2nd wall I used Blissey, but it became obvious the crushing fighting weakness is too much to deal with, especially with Keldeo's mixed attacks. Anyway Cresselia claimed the spot and became a mixed wall alongside Ferro. I really think a defensive core like that is underused, though has nice synergy. Next I needed attacking power, so I adapted Scizor (which my previous team had some problems with) and Techniloom (the poke I hated probably the most since BW2 was released). Since I wanted additional attacking power combined with possible revenge-killer, Dragonite came to my mind (in combination with Scizor clears extremely well late or mid-game). Last but not least, I needed a versatile scarfer that could potentially serve as a lead. My last team had scarfed Hydreigon, but it loses to other scarfers every time, so I decided to go with Tornadus-T.
Yeah, not really much to explain, very bulky, sets up rocks, has a myriad of resistances and since rain is so popular works better than ever! I decided to go with bulk on both sides, since fighting is dealt with Cress and on the physical side hardest hits he needs to parry are probably Landorus's EQ. Special bulk also helps a lot taking nothing from Thundurus's Tbolt and surviving unexpected focus-blasts. With proper strategy after eliminating his counters on opponents team some can't touch him for the whole game.
Yeah, at this point seeing the most overused pokemon in BW you should already know how little originality there is to this team... Unfortunately I got to know that pokes are not overused for no reason. Anyway, U-turn to keep up the momentum, Bullet punch for late game clearing and revenge, pursuit is somewhat a risky move to pull off, but can work on Espeon or weakened Reuniclus (never on Slowbro!). Since Scizor is slow anyway, I decided to put EV's into HP (actually mid-game with U-turn I wouldn't want a fast Scizor anyway). Superpower is a filler move, rarely used, mostly circumstancial. He pretty much is summoned 2-3 times mid-game for U-turn and Bpunches everything late game, nothing more, nothing less.
Dragonite (F) @ Choice Band
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Fire Punch
2 banded pokes on a team? Yeah might seem weird, but on my last team I based offensive power on set up pokemon (SD Infernape or SD Terrakion) and I never had enough time or speed to pull off everything. That is an improved version of hit-and-run team that does not waste time for set-up turns. Extremespeed is the most important move, getting priority over Toxicroak's sucker punch and finishing off scarfers. Outrage hits everything likee a truck, eliminated opponents steeland ice-types and click outrage strategy works quite well, though is straightforward. Fire punch for Skarm and Ferro, and EQ is a filler move (I might consider replacing it with sth else, though I haven't found anything more useful).
Yeah, new Tornadus is not that powerful, but it is FAST. It outspeeds pretty much everything and serves as a great lead, not to mention Hurricane may work great on weakened opposin rain-teams. Hurricane as primary (and only) STAB move, HP ice for other genies and dragons, Heat wave for Skarm and Ferro and U-turn is a filler move to maintain momentum as a lead.
Yeah, everyone hates Cress, it's just sooo bulky. Mixed wall tanks fighting moves like nothing, on special side after one calm-mind almost nothing can touch her. T-wave is to slow down opponent, reflect serves as team support and gains additional bulk. If I decide mid or late-game that my opponent really has nothing to touch cress, I proceed to reflect, than calm mind up, set next reflect and spam Psyschock. Even without recovery it's hard to take down. What is even funnier, I managed to get to 1200 after which I realised I forgot to put leftovers on ferro and cress ;) Possible changes are: more special bulk, moonllight in place of calm mind. Unfortunately only recovery move is affected by weather, which is probably the reason why Cress is not OU, with roost or recover I am sure it'd jumo up in usage.
Yeah, I rely much on priority. Anyway spread might seem crazy at first, but I really try to get breloom in on a specific poke. Ferro can't do anything to it, so it's a perfect switch-in. With Techniloom very precise play is needed, because if you sleep-fodder sth wrong, i could proceed to sweep the entire team on mach punch if unprepared. With basic stab as priority I don't invest much in speed since the strategy is pretty straightforward: I go in on sth that can't touch me, spore, use SD and at this point the opponent probably has a decent counter, but one that can't really OHKO me. Extra HP investment allows me to 2HKO many pokes surviving first attack and proceed to spam Mach punch. Bullet Seed is obviously better than seed bomb, if you feel the opponent will switch and does not have a good grass resistance, it deals HUGE amounts of damage.
3. Closing word:
I think that team has great offensive potential, though I haven't tested it against many stall/phasing teams. The biggest change for me in defensive core is lack of cleric, which makes it much more dangerous to play around stalling pokes like Jellicent or Spiritomb. Also my only specially offensive threat is my scarfer, so with good physical walls and proper prediction that team can be worked around. On the other hand I really like the offensive advantage bands and priority moves give me.
Anyway I'd like to hear some constructive critique, thank in advance :)
Last edited by szeweningen; July 17th, 2012 at 16:49.
Well, the biggest trouble with your team is the number of choiced pokemons. 3 is too much. Go for Moonlight over Reflect on cresselia since a cm cress needs it hp to get back. You can also try normal Tornadus over Therian version since you need a scarfer, and tornadus-n has more sp atk than tornadus-t and with a scarf it outspeeds everything anyways so you don't need Tornadus-T's extra speed. Put some Speed evs on breloom to outspeed other things. And go for Focus Blast over HP Ice on Tornadus since heatran completely walls that set.
Well, they are all choiced for good reason, they have strong priority moves. Anyway:
- I'll consider moonlight over reflect, but I am very reluctant. It really helps to switch in other pokes, cresselia is to die anyway, and moonlight wont help against main threats (stab dark moves like sucker punch Toxicroak and Hydreigons Dark pulse or Scizor's U-turn) especially if the weather is up. I actually would consider switching calm ming to moonlight if anything putting more bulk to SpDef.
- I considered it before, but I like to know I can really outspeed everything, and since Tornadus (both formes) are used often, I would like to avoid speed ties with other scarfers on genies
- For Breloom you are right, I'll have to check speed tiers to find a better EV spread, maybe 16-20 will be enough? Or do you guys have other suggestions?
- I'll never trade hp ice for focus blast. First, one of the main reasons to have scarfed tornadus on my team is to threaten other scarfed genies, and as it turn out, they are all weak to ice (especially landorus), so keeping him alive with hp ice keep all the other genies in check. For heatran, I actually love when people lead with Baloontran against my Tornadus, since they all think they can wall it. I just outspeed all variants, go for U-turn, break the baloon, switch to D-nite and proceed to EQ. I really don't mind being walled by heatran that much...
Other things of the top of my hat:
- Magnezone is a threat to my team, having 2 steel types with quad weakness to HP fire I have to be very careful
- Victini or Infernape might be a bit hard to deal with
Breloom needs life orb to sweep, it's just common knowledge. Durability is not his strong point. Also, while I like the idea of your team, you have enough priority and such to forgo the choice scarf on Tornadus for either specs or just straight life orb. Without life orb Tornadus can't cause much damage, and choicing it into anything but hurricane is really just crippling it until the very end of the game when you have everything pretty much under control.
Yeah, seems like you are completely right about Breloom, but I'm not so sure about Tornadus... It is true that Tornadus does not deal huge damage, but his job is more to threaten specific pokes. Heat Wave and HP Ice are circumstancial attacks that work only for specific reasons and Hurricane destroys weakened pokemon. Also if I remove the scarf I start to have a problem with a lead. There are pretty much 3 types of leads: weather, defensive-hazard inducing, scarfed. I like to outspeed scarfed leads with U-turn (or other move if I can deal super effective damage). Thanks, I think I'll change Breloom to LO.
Toxicroak with Sub/SD variant might be a much bigger problem (though it lacks coverage), but that set is extremely frail. I can deal with it in multiple ways:
- switch to Cresselia while he SD's up, I use reflect (I really don't think anyone would SD twice on Cresselia, it'd have to be someone either very bad or extremely good with predictions) while he misses sucker punch, next turn I live sucker punch and kill back with psyschock.
- if Cresselia is dead I weaken it either with Tornadus and Scizor and revenge it with Extremespped on Dnite (but it seems unlikely I'll let go of Cresselia before opponent's main physical threat is either crippled or eliminated)
I would replace Scizor with Lucario. This is because Lucario has two priority first moves Extreme Speed and Bullet Punch. Also Bullet seed was a good choice over seed bomb because Seed Bomb would need a couple Sword Dances to OHKO. I like to OHKO with my Technibroom. Anyway pretty good team over all.
Well... Bullet Seed in worse case scenario is pretty much the same as Seed Bomb, and in best over twice as powerful, so quite an obvious choice. I don't really see the advantage of having 2 priority moves, the only possible replacement would be choice specs Lucario with vacuum wave, but without technician boost it is just not powerful enough. If anything the only usable set is nasty plot/life orb set on Lucario with Vacuum wave, but that destroys the purpose of the team, capitalise on having no set-up turns. I don't think there is a single possible replacement for Scizor (also having STAB U-turn).
Ok so your team is solid and stuff but I feel like two Pokemon, Ferrothorn and Cresselia, that really take away from the momentum of your team...I understand you need walls and such but these two mons change a fast paced, hard hitting team into a slow hazard stacking/status inflicting sort of build all too quickly. However, there is a solution. Running Mamoswine over Ferrothorn and Xatu over Cresselia will keep the hazards that Ferrothorn gives you, protect yourself against hazards (which really suck for your team atm as you can't remove them), and provide your team with more hard hitting mons as well as some extra momentum.
For this set, it's a standard Lead Mamoswine that sets up rocks, hits something hard or Endeavors something to low health, and then fires off some Ice Shards before going down. It's an offensive presence that will scare off a lot of powerful sweepers like the new genie forms.
Magic Bounce gives Xatu the ability to reflect status and, more importantly, hazards back onto the other side of the field. Since your team lacks a spinner, Xatu makes up for it with this ability. The EVs are for survivability, Psychic is coverage, U-Turn gives you momentum to switch into one of your hard hitters, Roost is to keep it from dying, and Reflect is there to a) prevent stuff like Ttar that sets up SR from killing you, and b) protect your team from physical attacks for a temporary amount of time so you can smash stuff easier.
That's all I can help you with right now. Minor nitpick, you might try Fight Gem over Life Orb on Breloom, just because it's so easy to lose and Life Orb kills it even faster.
First of all I'll try out those sets, though I've never used a hyper-offensive team, so that might be a change. Also I've never used Xatu before, but I get the idea. Actually do you think Xatu could be replaced by this set on Espeon?
Only the first one. Consider using Fight Jem on Breloom though. :)
If you're going to use Espeon, I think Morning Sun isn't very reliable on Espeon without having a Sun inducer on your team, and furthermore, sand ruins it. Also, attract isn't very useful, Hidden Power [Fire] or Shadow Ball is much better and provides greater coverage, or you could run dual screens, to allow your sweepers to sweep.
If you're running Xatu, you need to have some good prediction, because once Rocks are up, your team becomes weak and easy to sweep.
Challenge: Beat me in a game of chess. Play at: Chess.com or ICC.
Lol, I don't know how atrract got there, by accident I suppose. It was supposed to be reflect of course (though charm could also work, but reflect should be better in 90% of cases). I actually tried the set with Xatu and Mamoswine and Xatu filled in pretty nicely, though Mamo was useless for a while (I never endeavor is not that easy to pull off). I was thinking of one more change in the meantime, for a Cresselia replacement:
Also one more thing that my team does is force many switches so more hazards might be beneficial and Deoxys-D is capable of staying in. Anyway that set might be modified (probably reflect over recycle is better), but the idea is pretty straightforward. Also mixed wall with reliable recovery, speciall wall, tanks all the fighting moves with ease. Magic Coat to get on spiking Skarmory and repel hazards, recover for obvious recovery, spikes to set up in the meantime. That set has one big downside, it's a setup bait. Fortunately there is almost nothing that can OHKO Deoxys-D unless tries to set up twice/3 times. Anyway being at full health use reflect and spam spikes untill opponent is ready to sweep. Then he proceeds to 2HKO Deoxys-D and gets a red card in the face having 2-3 layers of spikes (3 if I managed to repel some earlier with magic coat). Anyway could someone run calcs on +6 Toxicroak's Drain Punch with reflect up? ;) I actually like that set pretty much and worked very nicely. So at this point I switched Cresselia to Deoxys-D. Maybe I'm just not good enough to play with Mamo+Xatu and no defensive core, if anyone would like to show me how to properly utilise them feel free to test out that team and post the log here. At this point I'm not sure why isn't that Deoxys set used more, it seems very stable to me, especially with Ferro as a defensive core.