Post reserved for Threat List. (Maybe)
EDIT: I updated this RMT with the final version of my team.
This team peaked in the top 3 spots on the ladder. Being heavy stall, its way of dealing with threats is completely different than that of an offensive team. When an opposing pokemon begans to stat boost/setup, it is looked at as an opportunity to cripple it with Toxic or Willowisp, set up entry hazards, restore health, etc. - as long as you have a pokemon on your team that can deal with it. If not, smart switches help neutralize threats. Rather than relentlessly attacking Chansey, it is taunted and phased out (taking hazard damage), and something like Ferrothorn is taunted and Burn stalled. Its important to play conservative and not sacrifice pokes unless you have to. If played right, this team is incredibly hard to beat.
At a Glance:
OHKOgre (Kyogre) @ Choice Scarf
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Ice Beam
- Water Spout
Bringing rain to the battle, Kyogre is undoubtedly a force to be reckoned with. I don't usually lead with this; generally I lead with Tentacruel against Deo-S, Giratina-A against Deo-A (It is specially defensive so can easily handle it), Arceus-Ground vs Dialga/Groudon (it forces a switch on Dialga and can 2hko most Groudons), and I let Darkrai Dark Void Giratina-A. Kyogre works best as a revenge killer, as well as cleaning up after hazards. It also OHKO's +1 Mewtwo with full health Water Spout after Stealth Rocks. It is setup fodder for a lot of pokemon, which is why Chansey and Arceus-Ground create such nice synergy.
Possible changes: A Specs set is viable with Wish/Protect Chansey, a Resttalk CM set or Scald/Roar set would also work but both of these changes leave you vulnerable to Mewtwo, among other things.
Take A (Chansey) @ Eviolite
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Heal Bell
- Toxic / Seismic Toss
- Stealth Rock
Chansey provides incredible support for the team, and Toxic stalls almost everything. t’s a little bulkier defensive wise to take hits from Psystrike mainly, and Outrages if it has to. Now, Chansey can either work well with Toxic or Seismic toss. Toxic helps a lot on predicting switches, and Toxicing SD Arceus as it sets up, but without Seismic Toss Sub/CM Darkrai becomes a major threat to the team. I generally run Seismic Toss to be safe. Not much else to say, other than that Chansey plays an integral role on the team.
Possible changes: A Wish/Protect Chansey elongates Kyogre's life, but you either lose Toxic/Seismic Toss or Heal Bell which severely limits Chansey's viability.
SkarmPiss (Skarmory) @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 216 Def / 4 SDef / 36 Spd
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
Skarmory is undoubtedly the best defensive wall in the game, resisting Dragon attacks and only taking about 30 percent from STAB Band outrages . The only offensive threats are Rayquaza, Zekrom, and Groudon/Arceus with Overheat, but all of these pokes are taken care of by Giratina or Arceus-Ground. Skarmory has some speed ev’s to outspeed and taunt other Skarms, which really gives me an advantage playing against other stall. Taunt also shuts down Ferro/Chansey/Blissey, preventing recovery, and hard-counters standard Arceus Normal or Ghost Swords Dance sets.
Possible changes: Give it Stealth Rocks over Taunt to free up a move for Chansey (not really a good idea, best to spread out hazards among multiple pokes), switch Taunt with Counter, Toxic, or Tailwind – all of which are gimmicks, or redundant.
Testicruel (Tentacruel) @ Leftovers
Trait: Rain Dish
EVs: 208 HP / 252 Def / 44 SDef / 4 Spd
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Rapid Spin
- Toxic Spikes
Completing the hazard arsenal is Tentacruel. An incredibly bulky poke, it doesn’t need much sp. Def to take hard hits, due to rain dish and protect. Its defense when bulked up is sufficient enough to Scald and beat Ferrothorn, especially Giratina-O on switches. It absorbs Tspikes , and helps me win games by laying them. Chansey makes sure it is never burned for too long, and it obviously can't be Toxic'd. My Tentacruel is ev'd in such a way to maximize Rain Dish/Lefties recovery.
Possible changes: I’ve experimented with a life orb Ice Beam/Scald set, and this really helps break Giratina-O, but it drastically decreases Tenta’s bulk and is useless vs Arceus-Ghost and Giratina-A spin blocker. I find its best to run a defensive set and go for burns on Ferros than run the offensive set. Gira-O is easily handled by Groundceus.
Groundon (Arceus-Ground) @ Earth Plate
EVs: 252 HP / 84 Def / 4 SAtk / 168 Spd
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Ice Beam
- Perish Song
Arceus Ground is great. Since the team preview doesn’t tell the opponent the type of your Arceus, you will always have the element of surprise. You can switch into scarf Thunders or Bolt Strikes and get free KO’s or damage on the opponent. This set also reliably beats Rayquaza. When Rayquaza is +1/+1, Arceus takes an Outrage and OHKO's back. The battle then becomes a predict war, but one in which you have the edge. Perish Song is great coverage – its supereffective against every poke that’s the last alive on opposing teams. It also helps avoid PP stall. Arceus Ground completely stops BU Dialga and HC Zekrom, and provides a back-up check to SD Arceus. The 4 sp attack evs are to kill Rayquaza 100% of the time (4 SpAtk Arceus Ice Beam vs 4 HP/0 SpDef Rayquaza: 100% - 118.18%).
Possible changes: None
Phase Harder (Giratina) @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 240 SDef / 16 Spd
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Sleep Talk
Another one of those walls that beats basically every pokemon of one type of move (Phys. Or Special). It walls Groudon / Ho-Oh, Specs Ogre, CM Ogre, Manaphy, CM Arceuses, etc. It’s good to finish games by roaring and doesn’t die easily – which is why it’s on the team. Ground-Arceus + Skarmory handle most physical threats, so that allows me to use Giratina for special attackers. I also lead with this against Deoxys-A, as it takes Ice Beams easily and burns it; neutralizing it as a threat.
Possible changes: Add DTail over Will-O-Wisp; that set is always fun. DTail over roar helps against Mewtwo's but lets Ho-Oh set up. Also, the below Gira-O set can work as well.
Well, there you have it. A fairly cookie-cutter generic stall team --- until Ground Arceus comes onto the playing field. Feel free to import the team and use it, but please don't take credit for this team. I know the player currently #1 on the Smogon ladder uses this. If you have any problems laddering with it, let me know or give me suggestions in the comments! Thanks for reading.
Run this Giratina-O set:
This helps deal with Mewtwo/Deoxys-A more easily, adds more offense, and helps Gira-O outlast Tentacruel without wish support.
Last edited by Donkey; January 21st, 2012 at 23:54. Reason: Updated team
Post reserved for Threat List. (Maybe)
Just a nitpick, lol: I'd use Leftovers instead of Black Sludge on Testicruel (you're welcome, as the nickname was my idea ^^) because there's no real reason to use it, and if you're against a Trick user they can Trick Tentacruel whatever, then any other team mate Black Sludge...
Nice team, and congrats on the peaks! :D
Iced: ±Porygon: Your rank in Wifi OU is 1/99789 [1739 points / 136 battles]!
[IMP]Asn here :D
I agree wit Cat *hiii cat!* donkey *as you know* I use a variant of this team that you helped me make *thanks!* And I changed it slightly:
1. I made kyogre modest...it helps :D
2. give chansey wish/proect to get heal other team members easier *ie. kyogre* and take away stealth rocks
3. LEAVE TAUNT ON SKARMORY WHAT ARE YOU BLOODY THINKING
4. leftover on tentacruel instead of black sludge.....A BLACK SLUDGE CHANSEY IS NOT A NICE THING
5. put stealth rock on Arceus, take away perish song/spacial rend. I decided to take away perish song, I end up not needing it most of them time.
6. no more rmt's? :( please reconsider i like all yuor teams :D
7. DAT is my analysis *get it? huhu :D if you've seen me use this team you'll get it ;)
I'll post again when I see your threat list.
What do you do against Magic Mirror? I could also see you having trouble with Manaphy, especially if Manaphy is last poke and you can't whirlwind.
What's the matter trainer?
Ohai Dawnkey! So your team does look a bit generic but stall teams in general end up looking alot alike. Arceus-Ground seems like a cool choice for sure especially with Kyogre drawing in all those electric moves. Actually due to the fact the rest of your team is so standard it really that the team peaked at the top mostly off your ability to out-predict and out-play everybody on the DW WiFi ladder. The team is undoubtedly well-constructed although it really seems like Ferrothorn can pretty much come in freely on anything and start setting up barring Tentacreul and Giratina to an extent I'm really puzzled how you get past somebody who plays their Ferro smartly and doesn't let your Gira burn it.
It seems to have some slight troubles with big special walls, it needs some sort of a hard physical hitter to take care of those imo
PO NU: Number 1 - 1564
PO OU: Number 3 - 1667
PO Ubers: Number 9 - 1578
PO UU: Number 2 - 1518
[UD]charizard1065: dude, your luck
[UD]charizard1065: is horrifyingly bad
He's so right
Ice Beam over Spacial Rend on Arceus is probably better even without Calm Mind, as it has better coverage with Ground Judgement, allowing Arceus to hit Rayquaza and Flying-types while still hitting Dragon-types.
An unlikely victory through good fortune is merely a fluke.
An unlikely victory despite bad fortune, however, is a sign of true skill.
Groundon (Arceus-Ground) @ Earth Plate
EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 Spd
Take A (Chansey) @ Eviolite
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
HP always better.
Chansey is a she not a he :)
Anyway i'll try it out one of these days since i have a similar team with SkarmBliss and Tentracruel and that works out okay at times though i barely use it.
Edit: Hmm i've been trying it out for the last couple of hours, i jumped to 1200 (new name so it started at 1000) within the first few matches (so that right there says it's really good).
Now i ran into an Espeon which will really hurt this team (especially since there quite common with all the hazard teams that everyone use), however luckily Arceus can 2KO Espeon with Judgement and Espeon will barely touch Arceus and Arceus can easily switch in if low on health and recover and then 2KO it.
Also with all the dragon ubers running around Giratina is gonna die quickly unless Dragon Tail is used over Roar since even taunt will shut down Giratina without Dragon Tail. So since Dragon Tail is used that means Imprish instead of Bold.
Also i ran into a Mewtwo that had Psystrike so SkarmChanCruel is toast to Mewtwo so more reason for Giratina to have Dragon Tail in case Arceus can't handle Mewtwo and dies.
Now personally i'm gonna replace Toxic on Chansey for either T-Wave, Wish or SToss since Toxic Spikes already is Toxic anyways. SToss comes in handy for Dragon Ubers (especially Dialga) since Chansey can't do anything to Dialga thanks to SR and Toxic. Dialga can easily wear down Chansey if it doesn't have SToss forcing her to waste her Softboiled until she runs out. So if Chansey is one of the last 2-3 pokemon left and you don't have Arceus or Giratina then Chansey can do something with SToss or heal with Wish whoever is gonna switch in to wall Dialga. If u want Chansey to hit Flying Types or the ones who aren't affected by Toxic Spikes then leave her with Toxic and take out Stealth Rock and give Stealth Rock to Arceus over Perish Song.
Perish Song i like cuz it can force boosters to switch out before they can sweep or max out their boosting stats it also prevents Blaziken from taking advantage of Speed Boost if he's stalling with Sub + Protect so you can't hit it with Judgement. If Arceus isn't around before Perish Song forces Blaziken to switch out or dies then Giratina can wall Blaziken and his Hi Jump Kick / Fire Attack.
If you see a Forestress on his team then he's most likely going to leadoff with Forrestress so you should lead with Skarmory so you can Taunt it before it sets up Spikes or Toxic Spikes and you can quickly learn if it is carrying Rapid Spin.
Another thing is to watch out for your opponent's Kyogre; as Kyogre using Water Spout with Scarf/Specs does 50% to Chansey so Chansey won't do be anything to Kyogre with Water Spout until Kyogre gets weaken or if she comes in with full health to softboil wall until he runs out of Water Spout. That means either Giratina with Dragon Tail or else a leading Kyogre with Specs and Water Spout is gonna do some serious damage; and put this team at a early disadvantage; since risking your own Kyogre to use Thunder is very risky since he will go first if he has Timid with Scarf; or whichever Kyogre gets the para from Thunder will win the mirror match.
Other than this i can see why this team made it to #1 and since this is the playstyle i play with anyways i know i'm gonna enjoy using it when i get bored of my Rain Team.
Sorry for the big wall of text but i like giving as much information as i can to help out.
Last edited by Archerknight; October 1st, 2011 at 11:31.
@Minutemaid, I need the special defense, or else specs pokes tear through the core.
@wilmer Thanks for testing it! Specs Kyogre is a threat to all teams without a Palkia, Shedninja, Gastrodon, Quagsire, or specially defensive Chansey/Ferro. Specs Ogre and Band Zekrom are generally the fastest non stat boosting stall breakers; and my team was overall weaker to Zekrom, so I chose Ground Arceus over something like a Gastrodon because it balanced the team better. All stall has trouble with Specs Ogre, the best way to deal with it is to get Stealth Rocks and Spikes up as early as possible, and try to outpredict it. They are a headache for every team.
Also, adding Giratina-O (as i mentioned in the footnote) helps deal with all of the threats you've mentioned. Shadow Sneak cleans up Mewtwo, Deoxys, Scarfers, etc, and with wish support, it is a scary force on a stall team. Although Giratina normal form takes hits better, this team has Chansey and Skarm, so I've found Gira-O works better against offense, at least.
Last edited by Donkey; September 28th, 2011 at 21:56.
@ Donkey well like i was telling you in IM my Lanturn is a nice replacement to Arceus as he can wall Zekrom (you would have to give up a poke to bring in lanturn at full health or Zekrom takes it down before it sets up hax)' he also walls SpecsOgre, and all the ubers except Groudon. He's UU and walls and haxes better and trolls the opponent and isn't prone to Ice Beams, Surfs, and Grass Attacks like Arceus Ground is and gets boosted from Drizzle (especially if Kyogre is leading off). He can eat a Power Whip and parafuse right after and he takes earthquake like a boss. Haxing also allows the team free turns to setup hazards and rapid spin he's hazards away without any risk (well if he gets by the hax of course). One main thing he can also do is wall Darkrai as he can wall after Dark Void or he's an easy choice for which one of your pokemons is gonna eat the Dark Void since the others cannot always be put to sleep as they are needed awake. The more i think about it the more reason why Lanturn works better than Arceus Ground so i'm gonna add sub him in and see how it is.
Also you mention that you prefer Roar over DTail for Subs and that is true as i did run into a sub today against DTail and it didn't break it but that can easily be dealt with Whirwind and Perish Song. However when i used Roar Giratina was easy pickings (especially by all the Dragon Ubers and every uber carrying Ice Beam); or even a Giratina with Ghost Attack can relaly hurt Giratina. But the fact that you can DTail during Sleep Talk and cause even the smallest amount of damage and force a switch all in one is something not to be overlooked. It especially helps when it walls a Dragon Uber attack and drops down to 50% even with all it's bulkiness which allows it to Rest right after since the big threats was forced out.
He'll be dead weight to a Gastrodon but how many Gastrodons do you really see.
Anyways heres my Lanturn to test out:
Last edited by wilmer007; September 27th, 2011 at 03:48.
1. Never used. No one in their right mind runs Lanturn in Ubers.
2. Gets KO'd by Outrage, what do you do now?
On to my critique of the actual team.
Specsogre 2HKO's the whole team, no questions asked. Then again, there's no way to counter it bar Gastrodon :3
Great team, gratz on the ranking.
One sails the seas of life and believe
The storms will lead you home.
These open roads will call you with the promise
You'll walk the Earth alone.
I run Lanturn in ubers and i do very well as it shuts down most of the ubers. It may not work in high ratings but mid ratings it's still doable. Also your not going to leave it in for Outrage so you scout the poke to see what set it's running and when he uses Outrage you bring out Skarmory. Also theres no reason why it can't take 1 Outrage from Zekrom. If it can take a Bolt Strike like a boss (which it has every single time i have done it) then Outrage too as Bolt Strike is 10 Base Power Stronger and less accurate giving Lanturn the opportunity to T-Wave and then Confuse Ray and recover some of the HP Lost from Bolt Strike.
And like i was telling Donkey earlier. Lanturn shuts down Kyogre no matter what and can cripple Mewtwo which is a problem if he's carrying Psystrike since Chansey won't wall Psystrike. But then again 99% of all the Mewtwos i ran into today all carried Psystrike and so i had to semi wall with Giratina and eventually sacrifice a poke like Giratina for ScarfOgre to KO it.
Oh and one thing i forgot to mention earlier is that Toxic and WoW will not work on Heatran if it is using Flash Fire so more reason for Chansey to have SToss and Giratina to have DTail otherwise Heatran will also make Giratina and Chansey run out of PP's and then go to town.
Last edited by Archerknight; September 27th, 2011 at 18:20.
Alright so i've been doing some further testing if anyone wants to try some different variations which have worked out for me so far:
First off i gave Chansey Wish over Toxic so now she has both Softboiled and Wish with SR and Heal Bell. Now she's Deadly since now she has more PP's to stall when regaining her health back and healing her teammates.
Tanking Giratina works better than Giratina-O since a similar team with his own Giratina (if not an exact clone of this team) will quickly wear down your Giratina since it doesn't have Rest to heal back up and Chansey won't always be able to Wish it Back to health with hazards eating up Gira's health (on top of the free switch in that he gets to further wear down Gira). WoW works great on Gira to further wall physicals in case Skarmory goes down and burn steels, however Shadow Sneak helps deal with Mewtwo. The problem with Shadow Sneak is that it's only going to be good to wear down mewtwo or revenge kill when it's low on health and since Mewtwo carries Ice Beam it's still gonna wear down Gira forcing you to have a revenge killer handy. Maybe give Gira Shadow Tag > Leftovers to further boost Shadow Sneak (i'm testing out Shadow Spell so i'll see how that goes). Now the problem with Shadow Sneak is that Rayquaza with DDance is going to wreck Gira a new one (especially if it surprises you with being special). I ran into a special rayquaza earlier and i couldn't counter it with anyone and another rayquaza with DDance i was able to beat. If it gets DDance Up Arceus needs to quickly grab it with Ice Beam or everyone is in big trouble. And lord if DDance Rayquaza has Fire Blast/Overheat good bye Skarm and it's going to own Chansey and Giratina with any of it's dragon attacks and ice beam.
Next up i gave Skarmory Shed Shell (i should have mentioned it earlier) so he can get away and bait in a Magnezone and Probopass for Arceus Ground to OHKO it with Judgment. Even though they are uncommon i've seen my fair share of a few every once in a while and it helps when skarmory is able to get away. Since probopass will be using Pain Split he can stall out Skarmory till skarmory runs out of taunt and roost. Also if probopass has Taunt skarmory is just gonna die quicker since it can't do anything but taunt probopass since it's slower so now the mindgames over when probopass will use Taunt will quickly hurt skarmory.
Probopass has 525 BST while Magnezone has 535 BST, which is close the 600 BST benchmark of uber tier. To compare Ferrothorn has 489 BST much lower than either Magnet Puller which can be overlooked.
Probopass is an underated tanker while magnezone is an underrated trapper and special offenser with good defense and his special defense ain't so bad either. A player who fears Steel Types will use a magnezone and with all the Steel Types such as Heatran, Ferro, Dialga running around.
So yeah i'll be doing some further testing and update as needed.
Last edited by wilmer007; September 28th, 2011 at 04:19.
Donkey, max hp, max def = max def x2, max spdef
Last edited by -Minutemaid-; October 3rd, 2012 at 02:52.
@minute, First off, lmao @ "Last edited by Lamperi; September 28th, 2011 at 02:45. Reason: removed insulting". Also, I don't know what you are referring to.
@Icey, thanks bro.
Hey i know i'll probably get attacked for saying this but what about a Wobbuffet in place of say Kyogre? Since Kyogre won't be doing anything to ferrothorn or a predict counter like say using Thunder and he counters with a Ground or Water with a Dragon.
Wobbuffet has 405 BST a little low but might be manageable with the fact that he can always be full on health from wish.
Traps DanceQuaza and wrecks Mewtwo with ease and with Chansey's Wish to heal it on switch ins to set ups counter traps he can give clone team some nightmares. And he prevents status on essential poke like Cruel from being WoW; not to mention he makes the other guy waste needed PPs such as Roost and Whirlwind, Softboiled, Wish.
Rayquaza Used Dragon Dance, Encore (yay no Overheat for Skarmory) :)
Ferrothorn uses Spikes or Leech Seed, Encore!!!!
Arceus uses Swords Dance, Encore!!!!
Mewtwo uses Psystrike!!!, Encore!!!!!!
Skarmory uses all this Encore to setup Spikes and Whirlwind or Taunt and make him easy fodder... :)
Tentracruel uses Rapid Spin, Wobb uses Encore, then bring in Giratina and WoW it. No more Cruel or someone on his team eats the WoW anyway.
Last edited by wilmer007; September 28th, 2011 at 23:03.
Lanturn eats around 50% (just a quick number) from a SpecsOgre Water Spout, but Ludi only eats 25% so Lanturn counters Kyogre as it stays alive to scout, check, and counter kyogre all at once. Then he gets replaced by Ludi if needed. Ludi still checks Kyogre with a free Leech Seed even if Thunder gives para since Ludi has Lum Berry. Now i can choose if i want to bring back Lanturn to take the thunder and reheal what it lost earlier when scout checking or i can keep ludi in and wall kyogre or whatever non grass he brings out. Effectively telling me if that Kyogre is choiced or not and giving me the early advantage from the start; which is all i need so i can set up haxes and walls taking down all ubers (except Groudon) down with ease. If he brings in another uber to use Thunder ludi is getting a free scout check giving lanturn free hp reheal and gives lanturn the chance to setup another hax or T-Wave only even if it dies the next turn. No uber (other than Groudon and Arceus) can withstand constant surfs let alone free ones cuz that means a second surf with risk will wear the uber down.
Also i wasn't referring to his mewtwo i was referring to everyone else running mewtwo. You bring in Chansey to take off mewtwo's para and i bring in ludi further walling ludi with a free sub and my mono rain team just got stronger cuz now i get free surf and leech seed. Kabutops can also comes in to your chansey and gets a free swords dance + waterfall/low kick and there goes your whole team including your EQ Arceus.
When i said i have to lose a poke for ScarfOgre to come into Mewtwo to KO it, i was talking about someone like Giratina eating an Ice Beam trying to Dragon Tail Mewtwo out of there.
Also haxing is part of the game and it's a great way to troll opponents as some don't always expect it (especially from a weak little Lanturn). If i get hax with Lanturn into Kabutops with one or two free swords dance you are not surviving Kabutops assault.
Last edited by wilmer007; September 29th, 2011 at 06:33.
Lanturn won't be making an appearance on this team; it would create too many holes and weaknesses. If I wanted a specs ogre counter, I'd use Gastrodon. Thanks for the input though, but lol
Last edited by Donkey; February 12th, 2012 at 02:23.