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[BW2] Future Suspect Discussion: March and April

Discussion in 'Gen 5 NU' started by Django, Mar 1, 2012.

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  1. Luck>Skill

    Luck>Skill Well-Known Member

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    Nice double post Machinae

    All those things were used even during Bambi hera (Golbat and Amoongus specifically), Torkoal isn't used as much as it was during Bambi era (did you ever play in it?). This leaves only Mandibuzz and Weezing as "potential" counters, and both takes a lot from +2 Return. Weezing is the only "counter" (honestly, it's more of a check, without reliable recovery)

    252Atk Life Orb Sawsbuck (Neutral) Return vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Levitate Weezing (+Def): 34% - 40% (114 - 136 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

    Even assuming min damage, if it hits on the switch with Return, it's 13 for SR + 34 x2 - 13% for 2 turns of leftovers: that IS 68% damage, so Weezing might loses if not at full health, and for something with such a bad recovery, I see it difficult for it to counter Sawsbuck. Mandibuzz suffers from SR weakness, although it's a much better check for it, it still takes 28% - 35%, and has to Roost stall/Brave Bird it, risking to lose to the next switch in. Sawsbuck is also fast for the tier, has high attacck, good dual STABs, it doesn't even need the 3rd coverage move THAT much, and one of his STABs makes it regain health. It's a no from me. Oh, and Torkoal dies from +2 Nature Power

    252Atk Life Orb +2 Sawsbuck (Neutral) Earthquake vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Torkoal (+Def): 77% - 91% (266 - 316 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    +25% from SR

    I'll elaborate on Archeops and Mandibuzz later
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2012
  2. marmoteo

    marmoteo Member

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    Temptation, I think I recall mentioning to you that Sawsbuck was not going to get re-tested anytime soon. The metagame hasn't had enough of a shift to warrant it being tested, and as Luck mentioned, there's still very little things that can take it in the tier. Perhaps it'll be shelved as something to consider in the future, once NU becomes stable enough (providing there's actually a decent amounts of counters for Sawsbuck too), but at the moment there's other areas that are more of a priority.
     
  3. emac

    emac Emad

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    I don't know about you guys, but I would love to see an exeggutor test. I absolutely can not stand seeing that thing, and I feel like I really have to go out of my way to put one of the few counters for eggy on my team. It has a good movepool, can run multiple sets, and the most used set is basically immune to status because of lum berry+Harvest and is very tough to kill due to rest. Sleep powder is always an annoyance and leaf storm coming from its massive base 125 special attack Is devastating, even to things that resist it. The choice specs set is also incredibly dangerous and its leaf storm can dent every single pokemon in the tier greatly and psyshock can make amoonguss, vileplume, and special walls such as cryogonal cry. It also easily 2hkos specially defensive audino and lickylicky at full health with psychock after rocks.
    252 SpAtk Choice Specs Exeggutor Psyshock vs 252 HP/0 Def Audino: 57.8% - 68.29%
    252 SpAtk Choice Specs Exeggutor Psyshock vs 252 HP/0 Def Lickilicky: 51.65% - 60.85%[/HIDE]

    It does have a few solid checks such as regice, mandibuzz, and specially bulky skuntank, but reither regice or skuntank have reliable recovery, none of them enjoy specs leaf storms and regice and mandi are weak to rocks. I really think that it would be in our best interest to suspect eggy.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2012
  4. SensitivePineapple

    SensitivePineapple Re Member

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    I would like to see Damp Rock retested since Kabutops is gone and the only rain "Abusers" out there are
    Hydration: Alomomola, Whiscash, Lapras, Phione, Palpitoed, Dewgong, Swanna

    Dry skin: Croagunk and Parasect

    Rain Dish: Ludicolo (Wartortle, Tentacool, Pelliper?) And

    Swift Swim:
    Ludicolo Poliwrath Seaking, Mantine, Armaldo, Relicanth, Seismitoad, (Carracosta and Beartic?)

    So yeah Damp Rock would make a lot of pokes more viable and giving Sandstorm teams more "counters"
     
  5. Ghostbone

    Ghostbone Member

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    Don't forget floatzel as a swift swim poke.

    Beartic and carracosta are unreleased iirc.
     
  6. Wavy

    Wavy prince of the sea Server Moderator Server Moderator

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    Ludicolo and Seismitoad will sweep with 8 turns of rain. Rain is potent enough at 5 turns.

    Not the first thing that comes to my mind but I certainly wouldn't mind seeing a test for Eggy. He is scarily good in the right hands...
     
  7. Ghostbone

    Ghostbone Member

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    Ludicolo and seismitoad get walled, so no they don't sweep with 5 turns, rain is just really lackluster atm.

    Not to mention hydro pump misses 100% of the time, and surf isn't powerful enough to OHKO lots of stuff.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2012
  8. VuvuzelaΒzz

    VuvuzelaΒzz •Sage

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    I don't think his point was that rain is broken and sweeps at this moment, but that it doesn't need buffs. As a playstyle Rain is lackluster as far as devoting a whole team to it goes, however it is usable on individual pokes, namely Ludi, who does sweep relatively effectively.
     
  9. Luck>Skill

    Luck>Skill Well-Known Member

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    Exeggutor suspect seems reasonable, I'll talk about it with Marmoteo.

    About rain, it's not only Kabutops, as Wavy said, it's that walling rain sweepers for 6 turns is close to impossible. Seismitoad + Ludicolo are difficult to wall effectively, especially Ludicolo, especially considering the fact that even the best special walls have problem tanking Hydro Pump in rain, Floatzel is impossible to outspeed in rain (I mean, Ludicolo unless Jolly is still POSSIBLE to outspeed with a scarfer, but Floatzel runs around with 600+ speed), can run a +Atk nature and still being the fastest mon in the tier, and has good coverage with Waterfall + Ice Punch + Brick Break. You'd need STRONG defenses to deal with rain, severely limiting your teambuilding (especially if you enjoy using offensive teams).

    EDIT: How about Ludicolo? I'm talking about the LO Rain Dance version, seems nearly impossible to wall
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2012
  10. Ghostbone

    Ghostbone Member

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    Specially defensive mandibuzz walls all ludicolo variants (hydro pump does around 65% in rain iirc, which is a lot but roost, leftovers and misses allow it to stall out rain, it has to be wary of ice beam freezes though as it toxic stalls or brave birds ludicolo), it also similarly walls seismitoad and golduck. Golbat stalls out all of them as well, alot of pokes can take a hit and KO back.
    Floatzel is really fragile and thus weak to priority, so it can't even set up rain safely and basically requires another poke to sack themselves to get in safely. Waterfall isn't as strong as surf/hydro pump either, and bulky grass types don't take much from ice punch as they giga drain for the KO.
     
  11. Hot N Cold

    Hot N Cold Active Member

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    Yeah, Cryogonal is very similar to Mandibuzz with Recover+Toxic, take 60% of Hydro Pump LO in Rain but are weak to SR.

    Roselia probably its the best option against this mons, Roselia take 40-50% of Ice Beam LO Modest 252 SpAtk. Roselia its very underrated in NU IMO.
     
  12. emac

    emac Emad

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    So in this scenario, I'm assuming you switch in your "counter" of mandibuzz/golbat while ludicolo sets up the rain. Assuming that rocks are up (because its nu, rocks are always up) and that you are at full health and running a 252/252 careful natured poke (which is an awful set for both of them) after Ludi hydro pumps on the first turn of rain, each of them should be at around 10-15% hp. The two options you have after that are to brave bird and get KOed by recoil damage, or to attempt to roost stall your opponent and pray for a miss (because 2-3 hydro pumps will KO you) After this, you will have a dead or near dead "rain counter" and the opponent may have a few more turns to sweep. Nobody is gonna leave a rain abuser in on your grass type unless the abuser is armaldo who will instantly wreck you with a LO x-scissor. Rain is a decent strategy as of right now, but it makes no sense to call for a damp rock retest just because you want to run a rain-offense team.
     
  13. Hot N Cold

    Hot N Cold Active Member

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    [​IMG]

    Mantine (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Water Absorb
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Hidden Power [Flying] / Scald
    - Toxic
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk

    This mons its the ultimate counter of Ludicolo (6-8HKO) and work well against other Rains Sweepers, calcs:

    Hydro Pump and Surf none -
    Giga Drain does 23.65% - 27.84% Modest Ludicolo 252 SpAtk / 252 Spd
    Ice Beam does 19.76%- 23.35% Modest Ludicolo 252 SpAtk / 252 Spd
     
  14. Parpar

    Parpar Member

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    May we enslave Cradily?

    Ever since sand came out in NU it has been getting a lot of usage with the scary Sleep Talk/Curse set and with the help with Suction Cups it makes impossible to phaze (I take that back we got Haze but who uses that). Also, with its Special Defense boost in Sand makes it more so troublesome for it get taken down with super effective move like Focus Blast and/or Ice Beam. After Cradily gets up a decent amount of defense boosts the good physical attackers (Emboar,Sawk,KlingKlang, etc.) get rendered useless baring a crit.
     
  15. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    Coming out in favour of Exeggutor being suspected after a big discussion in PNU with a lot of people. I'm personally just on the side of it not being broken but it's absolutely suspect worthy - it's very versatile and difficult to put a stop to as wrll as its sleep powder fucking up what would otherwise be a counter. at the same time it's very slow and not that bulky - people think that sawk is free switch in bait for example but with sturdy exeggutor will take a minimum of 81% damage if coming in (assuming that Sawk is locked into close combat) or without sturdy 54%.the thing about it is it's slow and not that bulky despite its hard hittung and it will almost always be nearly killed for the switch and forced out of play by many checks like scyther. it has a lot of sets and it can be hard to play around which is why i think the discussion is worth having but i will be on the no ban side when it comes
     
  16. mael

    mael np: diary

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    So exeggutor with 125 base special attack and 55 base speed, a worse offensive typing, the fact that it can be trapped by skuntank and that it is easy to outspeed and kill is suspect worthy, but archeops with 140 attack 112 special attack and 110 base speed and with better STABs is just getting ignored?

    about rainludicolo, it is suspectworthy, on my balanced teams I usually have roselia against it and with offensive teams I try to stall the rain turns out, but I have to sacrifie at least one mon
     
  17. Machineae

    Machineae ex NU leader

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    We should definitely NOT resuspect Damp rock.
    The abusers list is huge, and as previously said it's hard to wall ludicilo+seism alone.

    WITHOUT investment, Floatzel reaches 532 speed in rain. This easily allows him to go mixed and destroy counters to the opposite set (physical/special)

    While I'd love it back for my own personal use, it's just too strong and would hurt the tier.
     
  18. emac

    emac Emad

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    Mantine is a great rain check, but there are distinct reasons why it is 129th in usage.

    Temp, can you please relax on the archeops issue. It is a very strong poke and if it is played well it can be very devastating, but it is weak to rocks and after taking any kind of hit (even many resisted ones) It becomes one of the weaker pokemon in the tier. Golem/Regirock/Rhydon/Metang can deal with it and it is weak to multiple different priority moves and has bad typing overall. I really don't think it is banworthy.

    Question 1: Who leaves Sawk in on an exeggutor
    Question 2: How is a poke that gets koed by psychic after switching into rocks considered a check?
    Question 3: How is base 85 defense and base 95 HP not very bulky? Its typing is also great against many physical attackers in the tier (not so much special attackers though)
    Question 4 (Not really a question): You seem to be ignoring the fact that most Exeggutor can rest off any damage without having to serve any turns of sleep.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2012
  19. Parpar

    Parpar Member

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    k, making Archeops suspect is pretty re..stupid.
    1) It's rock weak, which means it can't switch out more than twice on SR.
    2a) It has a ability to render it bad. Heck, if that's the case make Slaking suspect.
    2b) There's also priority to make it get into that ability. Don't even tell me NU don't have any of those.
    3) We have good amount walls to take down Archeops from sweeping. (Metang, Regirock, Rhyhorn, etc.)

    I would go into more detail but this isn't a Archeops suspect thread ' -'
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2012
  20. Halsey

    Halsey Wildstar

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    252Atk Life Orb +2 Sawsbuck (Neutral) Double-Edge vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Amoonguss (+Def): 88% - 104% (384 - 451 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 28% chance to OHKO. Secure OHKO after SR

    252Atk Life Orb +2 Sawsbuck (Neutral) Double-Edge vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Muk (+Def): 88% - 104% (366 - 432 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 27% chance to OHKO. Secure OHKO after SR

    252Atk Life Orb +2 Sawsbuck (Neutral) Earthquake vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Muk (+Def): 99% - 116% (410 - 482 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 94% chance to OHKO. Secure OHKO after SR

    252Atk Life Orb +2 Sawsbuck (Neutral) Double-Edge vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Vileplume (+Def): 96% - 112% (340 - 400 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 76% chance to OHKO. Secure OHKO after SR

    252Atk Life Orb +2 Sawsbuck (Neutral) Double-Edge vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Weak Armor Mandibuzz (+Def): 69% - 82% (295 - 348 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 56.25% chance to OHKO after SR

    252Atk Life Orb +2 Sawsbuck (Neutral) Double-Edge vs 252HP/252Def Eviolite Golbat (+Def): 72% - 85% (255 - 301 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 75% chance to OHKO after SR

    252Atk Life Orb +2 Sawsbuck (Neutral) Double-Edge vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Torkoal (+Def): 70% - 82% (241 - 283 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 62.5% chance to OHKO after SR

    252Atk Life Orb +2 Sawsbuck (Neutral) Earthquake vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Torkoal (+Def): 77% - 91% (266 - 316 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. Secure OHKO after SR.

    252Atk Life Orb +2 Sawsbuck (Neutral) Double-Edge vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Levitate Weezing (+Def): 80% - 95% (270 - 319 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 56.25% chance to OHKO after SR

    Neither of the Pokemon you named counter Bambi. The best some of them can do is beating it 43.75% of the time after SR if they are at max health. So yeah it has no counters, that doesn't mean it is broken but saying it isn't broken because it has counters is false.
     
  21. Platinum

    Platinum ~tilde~

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    ./late

    Mandibuzz is 2HKO'd after Rock, so if Ludicolo predicts right and uses IB on the switch, Mandibuzz can never switch in again. Many people tried to use Mandibuzz against my Ludicolo, but with just a timely IB, it's no long a counter. Sending in Ludicolo doesn't mean it must use RD right away, spending 1-2 turns to soften its checks is important.

    My point is if it takes only 1 Ice Beam to basically eliminate Mandibuzz from the counter list, it isn't a safe counter at all (and then Ludi can switch out and come in later to setup RD, and heal with Giga Drain, meaning hazards is hardly an issue).

    Same for Golbat.

    Solid counters for Ludicolo may be Licky, Cryo, and Mantine.
     
  22. Luck>Skill

    Luck>Skill Well-Known Member

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    252Atk Life Orb Ludicolo (+Atk) Waterfall in Rain vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Levitate Cryogonal (+Def): 73% - 86% (253 - 297 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    252Atk Life Orb Ludicolo (+Atk) Waterfall in Rain vs 252HP/0Def Leftovers Lickilicky (Neutral): 45% - 54% (195 - 229 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 3% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers.

    If rain is already up, and Ludi gets a flinch (not that impossible, especially considering your best bet is to Wish stall, or Body Slam it but you'd die in the process if you don't paralyze it), lickilicky loses, and Cloud Nine sucks on Lickilicky, since it can't get Wish/Heal Bell with it, making it a lot less useful than it would be. Mantine is the only 100% counter I can think of. More people should run mixed Ludicolo and see how much is effective
     
  23. Ghostbone

    Ghostbone Member

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    Idk about physical Ludicolo, just seems gimmicky to surprise pokes that would otherwise wall it.

    And of course the ludicolo player can predict, so can the other player so idk how relevant that is....... You predict their switch and take out their check/counter, or they predict your predict and take out your ludicolo.

    I've tried running rain, it's bad without damp rock lol. Obviously individual pokes can abuse rain, but they can't use damp rock as they have to use life orb. That being said just because it's bad without damp rock doesn't mean it isn't broken with damp rock, i'd like testing or something but meh.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2012
  24. Orcelot

    Orcelot AKA Angelus

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    You do know Ludicolo gets Swords Dance, right? I dunno about the mixed set but physical Ludiculo is totally viable. I couldn't support a damp rock retest, I think rain dance is strong enough already.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2012
  25. Ghostbone

    Ghostbone Member

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    If ludicolo is being used in rain, then it either has to set up rain itself and swords dance, which would be quite hard to do without taking significant damage, plus it then only has 2 moves for coverage, or something else has to, and it has even fewer turns to abuse rain.
    Turn 1, another poke sets up rain.
    Turn 2, Explodes, memento, u-turns, whatever
    Turn 3, ludicolo swords dances
    You have two more turns to abuse the rain, that's not enough, not with 70 base attack anyway.
     
  26. Platinum

    Platinum ~tilde~

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    What I mean is with just one right IB after SR, Mandibuzz is nearly incapable of switching into Ludicolo anymore. That's what I call a shaky counter. It doesn't take a huge amount of prediction skill to IB a coming Mandibuzz, Ludicolo has the clear advantage here. This case is different from predicting in the long run, for example you will have to predict right when Rain is up in order to stop the opponent from stalling your Rain turn
     
  27. mael

    mael np: diary

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    I do not want Archeops suspected that much, but I find it stupid that a worse pokemon is getting suspected immediatly while my post is just being ignored
    I have changed my opinion on bambi anyway when I saw the Double Edge logs, I was doing my calcs only with frustration

    And I agree that ludicolo needs a suspect, but I am unsure about it's brokeness, Rain Dance LO is just teribbly hard to wall, people need to use roselia more
     
  28. LördKX

    LördKX Archivist of Memories

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    I also think Ludicolo needs a suspect. It's reasonable attack backed by great coverage, it's great speed(in rain, which isn't to hard to set up), and decent 80/70/100 bulk+giga drain makes it a dangerous sweeper and hard to kill. If a suspect is made, I'll elaborate more and try to prove my points.
     
  29. Orcelot

    Orcelot AKA Angelus

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    I wouldn't say no to making Ludicolo a suspect, this thing is ridiculously hard for an offensive team to switch into and it outspeeds almost the whole tier under rain (which is can easily set up by itself).
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2012
  30. Luck>Skill

    Luck>Skill Well-Known Member

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    I see your points, but we aren't suspecting anything at the moment, since the tier shifts will happen soon (5 days), and we will have to see how the new meta shapes.
     
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