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[BW2] May and June LU tier / Future suspect discussions

Discussion in 'Gen 5 LU' started by marmoteo, May 1, 2012.

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  1. iris

    iris Member

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    Or the players truly know what they are talking about and are not just bored of a 3 day old metagame.

    The reason why I (and maybe others) did not post in the past is because it was much easier to voice my opinion on IRC and PNU than here. It is so hard to change people's opinions in suspect threads that it is usually not worth the effort to post damage calcs / common logic / etc. If you look at any suspect thread, the posts usually just go in circles with the same people advocating their opinion while no opinion actually changes no matter how well the other explains his/her point. So, after seeing this happen for years, I find it simply pointless to try to convince the masses; instead, why not try to voice my opinion to the people who actually matter? Yes, this course of action isn't best for the community and is quite selfish, but this way is the easiest way to actually get opinions noticed. Besides, suspect threads have been known to be legendarily bad: Scarf arbok in the thundurus thread was nominated (i don't know if it won) for best thread. This obviously means the community doesn't value suspect threads because of the lack of quality which leads to people to neglecting suspect threads in general.

    Also, people were really upset / disappointed with Xdevo's reasoning for banning. He uses vague references like "handful, select amount, and NU" while never actually going very in-depth. Even the new tier leaders failed to go in-depth with why sceptile was not banned. Though, i agreed with the decision, people who advocated banning need proper reasons why. The council on smogon does a very good job on this, requiring detailed paragraphs on why a suspect is ban-worthy or not. You can agree / disagree with the reasoning, but at least the reasoning is there and explained. This has not been the case for PO. I mean, you even have tier leaders who (possibly) do not even know what is in their own tier. Yes, metagross beats sceptile, but why even mention it? I find it hard to believe a tier leader cannot find one counter for one set of a pokemon that has been in LU for a long time and had the exact same counters in DPP.

    So, on topic now, i guess i will make people happy and actually talk about the suspect.

    For one, Sigilyph isn't exactly the easiest to bring in. Yes, it can come in on toxic / burn / even para, but its defenses are not the best. Especially with Wifi Clause, you know sigilyph is there so you already know what it can come in on. But, this point is kind of stupid since most people autopilot on ladder (me included) and don't really think but play the safest move. It's like when you know your opponent has heatran so you become a little more worried about throwing WoW's arounds if Specs Heatran hurts your team. Same can be said for Sigilyph, if you know LO Sigilyph hurts your team, be more cautious of what you let it come in on. This is the easiest way to avoid hurt to your team especially if you are not very confident about your team building skills. Playing like this (like practicing double switching) will greatly improve your play and you will notice results.

    Second, people need to stop this LO +4 attacks. Next to Choice band, this could be the worst set known to sigilyph. You do not need 4 coverage moves, roost is so much more important because then your amount of counters lessens and your survivability increases dramatically.

    Third, Free moltres and free omastar

    Fourth, people are forgetting that escalvier is back which is a ten times better check than houndoom, krook, and froslass. Since literally 0 sigilyph are Psycho Shift Cosmic Power (literally have only seen one where Riot Vann used it against me in POWC but jumpluff bossed), the bug / steel can easily come in on HP ground / psyshock (why run this), ice beam (again why run this), and even air slash. Megahorn easily OHKO's (70% - 83% without any investment against 4 hp). Sigilyph only does 30% - 36% to this type of Esca. Esca can also pursuit sooooooo Sigilyph is somewhat trapped.

    I can post more if people want
     
  2. Luck>Skill

    Luck>Skill Well-Known Member

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    Yes, and SubRoost Moltres loses to so many things that it's not worth mentioning it as an unbeatable set, sure, it beats Moltres' best "counter", but then it loses to so many new things...
     
  3. marmoteo

    marmoteo Member

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    I think that everyone here is still expected (by me, at least, and any sound tier leader) to present proper and solid argumentation when posting in suspect threads. While not every mediocre post will be challenged, they will unlikely be taken into consideration when making the final call as to the result of a suspect discussion. Ultimately, it is the good posts the ones that are going to be noticed by the people making the decisions. On that same note, though, you do make a solid point by expecting tier leaders to make a stronger, more in-depth post when finalizing suspect discussions, and I will make a point of changing that.

    Also, while Sigilyph is certainly a controversial topic that not everyone can agree on, I will try to prioritize the Moltres retest and such will be the first thing I will try to do with LU during this period (of course, once I manage to get a hold of 1996ITO (!) ).

    On whether I would like you to post more, Iris, I would definitely like you to expand on why you want Omastar freed, since no one has made that point here. Your own arguments on why you want to free Moltres are very welcome too.

    Last, but not least, a reminder to all users that while you are more than entitled to have discussions in regards to things being suspected in other mediums (IRC/PNU), at the end of the day, this is the place where I will be looking at every single post and gathering information to make my decisions. So if you can't be bothered posting here because you already discussed it somewhere else, your loss. At the least (if lacking the time to transport your arguments into the thread), you can just pass on the logs of an enriching discussion that took place somewhere else.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2012
  4. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    To everyone(iris) I've talked to about posting your argumentation here when I was leading, 100% this. Although I really should have had devo post a better explanation, but whatever.[/HIDE]

    Also, something to keep in mind would be an Omastar retest. I still think it would be broken now as changes in the tier have only made it that much stronger, but people keep crying about it. Of course these are the same people that didn't post when it was suspected(yay recurring themes) but I digress. Maybe the metagame is offensive enough now to check it consistently enough. I still need to get back into the tiers to really add something constructive though.
     
  5. iris

    iris Member

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    I wasn't there when omastar was banned!
     
  6. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Well other people that are bitching were!
     
  7. Halsey

    Halsey Wildstar

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    There is a reason why I haven't posted about Omastar here!
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2012
  8. Platinum

    Platinum ~tilde~

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    Sodium level!

    Well, I don't say that Sigi is broken, but it's not that easy to check either. And I agree with a Moltres retest, seem reasonable.

    However, I think Omastar is still broken, especially with Sand support, but a retest doesn't hurt anything, so whatever. Maybe its slow speed will keep it from being broken, who knows.
     
  9. WizzleKidd

    WizzleKidd Wizzlin' PO since Feb '11

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    I am all up for a Moltres retest. If you clearly look at the 'Moltres Suspect' thread and 'March and April LU Tier' thread you will see how I already mentioned why I believe Moltres can be handled in LU. But nope. With little explanation apart from 'SubToxic beats Slowking' people wanted it out, thus it got banned anyway.
    Also, sp.def Miltank not being viable, is beyond me as it tanks fire moves better than Lickilicky and has good recovery which Lanturn does not. Not saying it's better then both of them at being a special wall but it is an good option anyway.

    About free Omastar.. even though I would like it back it's just the surf/icebeam/HPgrass combo would break through everything or at least 2hko the bulky mons like Uxie. Best counters I can think of right now to Omastar is Munchlax and Ferroseed (some people may be unexpected and run HP fire though).
     
  10. monkeyeatingeagle

    monkeyeatingeagle Banned

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    well, both Munchlax and Ferroseed are terrible, but the most used Pokemon itself counters Omastar as well.
     
  11. Wander

    Wander Shitty Wizard

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    I'm cool with the Moltres retest, but Omastar is seriously a no for me.
    Slowking is the closest thing to a counter, and even that's 2HKO'd by +2 HP Grass, and we shouldn't keep something in a tier just because one Pokemon counters it.
     
  12. Halsey

    Halsey Wildstar

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    I honestly couldn't care less about an Omastar restest but people need to stop talking about Omastar like if it was at +2 +2 everytime it switches in.

    Yes it 2HKOes pretty much everything at +2, but for that it needs to set up with its terrible defensive typing, sub par special bulk (however it has a good defensive bulk) and horrible initial speed. Another issue with Omastar is that you pretty much need to run White Herb over LO, or your low chances of setting up become practically nonexistent and without LO there are a fuck ton of Pokemon capable of tanking a hit and then OHKO Omastar in return. Also even at +2 Spe revenge killing Omastar is possible. Timid Omastar can be revenge killed by Scarf Rotom or any Scarfer faster than it and Unburden Hitmonlee. Modest Omastar can be revenge killed by Scarf Braviary or any other Scarfer faster than it, Accelgor and Unburden Hitmonlee.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2012
  13. Platinum

    Platinum ~tilde~

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    Maybe setting up with Omastar is not that easy, but it's not that hard either. Its spdef is not subpar in Sand, and there are oppoturnities for it to setup vs weak attacks or resisted attacks. I speak from the experience with the Omanyte I used recently, although Omanyte didn't hit hard enough, it can setup in many circumstances.

    The revenge killing part, however, is the main problem, so if anything, revenge killers are the biggest obstacles for Omastar.
     
  14. Halsey

    Halsey Wildstar

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    The only problem with Omastar in Sand is the completely lack of synergy it has with other Sand abusers (and the fact Sand is now nothing special, because Gligar left) and even if it gets the Sdef boost it doesn't help Omastar tanking anything not called x2 Super effective Hidden Power or Adamant Entei's Hidden Power Grass.

    Personally I would use a Dual Screen Pokemon (or even Wynaut (I have never used or seen Wynaut in LU but I saw people using it with moderate success in RU)), like Uxie, instead of using Hippopotas to get an Sdef Boost.
     
  15. Machineae

    Machineae ex NU leader

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    Just wanted to add this, not to cause an arguement or stir anything up but:
    HP Electric would be the go-to fourth move if you want to hit the most pokes for SE on specsking, not grass knot or ice beam as per the standard set.
     
  16. parasect4win

    parasect4win FEAR PARASECT

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    Just to confirm I retract the statement from the quote, I'm not actually sure why you quoted me to say that but whatever. Also HP Grass>Grass knot, mostly because it hits Slowking and Lanturn harder (according to Luck>Skill anyway)
     
  17. Halsey

    Halsey Wildstar

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    252SpAtk Choice Specs Slowking (+SAtk) Hidden Power (Grass) vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Volt Absorb Lanturn (+SpDef): 39% - 46% (180 - 212 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

    252SpAtk Choice Specs Slowking (+SAtk) Psyshock vs 252HP/0Def Leftovers Volt Absorb Lanturn (Neutral): 61% - 72% (279 - 328 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    252SpAtk Choice Specs Slowking (+SAtk) Hidden Power (Grass) vs 252HP/0SpDef Leftovers Slowking (Neutral): 48% - 57% (192 - 228 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 15% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers.

    252SpAtk Choice Specs Slowking (+SAtk) Grass Knot vs 252HP/0SpDef Leftovers Slowking (Neutral): 56% - 66% (222 - 262 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    All Specs Slowking should be Surf or Scald / Fire Blast or Flamethrower / Psyshock / Grass Knot or Shadow Ball, no Ice beam and no Hidden Power anything.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2012
  18. parasect4win

    parasect4win FEAR PARASECT

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    (17:55:53) +Luck>Skill: yeah
    (17:56:04) +Luck>Skill: I thought grass knot for 60
    (17:56:06) +Luck>Skill: instead it's 80
     
  19. Luck>Skill

    Luck>Skill Well-Known Member

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    After speaking with today with Bad Romance on the server, I discovered Grass Knot has 80 BP vs Slowking as opposed to 60 as I thought, so yeah, run Grass Knot, since Psyshock hits Lanturn hard enough anyway...just wanted to say that.

    FREE OMASTAR (I don't even remember why it was banned, but maybe because the reason was stupid, dealing with another magic guard Omastar with full hazards on the opponnet's side maybe?).

    In the first place, it is hard to setup, take the top 20 most used pokes (ranked stats):

    Slowking - lol gl setting up on any Slowking set that's not Specs locked into Fire Blast
    Entei - same as Slowking, Flare Blitz/Espeed choiced are the only moves it can set up on
    Sandslash - EQ from 0 atk Sandslash does 63% minimum, and honestly I wouldn't run 0 Atk in LU...(I rarely run Sandlash)
    Rotom-C - Ok, both stabs hits its special defense andare SE
    Uxie - survives anything and Twaves
    Galvantula - Lol do I even have to explain this
    Cofagrigus - TR on its face, and even at +0 Shadow Ball will do a lot
    Tangrowth - lol, although it may switch out fearing Ice Beam, you'd need prediction with this (not accounted in suspect discussions, hence irrelevant)
    Steelix - EQ does like 60% minimum (didn't calc but it does a little less than Sandslash'), has Sturdy and can phaze it out
    Hitmonchan - Fighting STAB move
    Hitmonlee - ^
    Absol - Sucker Punches if at +2 for good damage, can Superpower when at +0, outspeeds and does A LOT of damage
    Munchlax - can take anything and phaze it out, even at +2, or para with Body Slam
    Sigilyph - Psychic from LO set destroys Omastar, CP set can't "switch in", although I guess that, if at +1, Omastar won't kill it...
    Gallade - Fighting STAB
    Rotom - Elec stab, even Shadow Ball does a lot
    Qwilfish - Can Taunt, your best bet is HP Grass (unless you run hp electric to get walled forever by Quagsire, good deal).
    Drapion - Taunt, access to EQ, Whirlwind
    Accelgor - Focus Blast / Giga Drain / even Bug Buzz does a lot
    Magmortar - Thunderbolt / HP Grass

    So yeah, Omastar HAS problems setting up in front of most things, and even with the few that it could set up on, it'd need predictions, it's not something you can send in and you know it WILL work.

    That said, it's also slow and easy to revenge kill, as it was already pointed out.
     
  20. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf Active Member

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    Hi. We recently suspected Omastar in RU. Here are what some users had to say.

    I'm sure some users will be unable to look past RU=/= LU, however at present they are quite similar making these statements from respected members of our community valid.

    Thoughts from you guys on these posts?
     
  21. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    At the time of us banning Omastar, RU was a lot more offensive(and still was at the time of your suspect thread) than LU, mainly because of both Sharpedo(banned here) and Honchkrow(UU through usage in April). A metagame geared towards offense greatly hurts it for obvious reasons. But yeah, now our tiers are similar(minus things like Clefable, maybe something else notable), and I'd give it another shot regardless.

    Also, here's its original thread. Notice how almost none of the people wanting to retest it posted in it(!): http://pokemon-online.eu/forums/showthread.php?9696-Suspect-Thread-Omastar
     
  22. Wander

    Wander Shitty Wizard

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    Okay, BR and Luck>Skill's posts have convinced me that Omastar does have problems setting up.
    I'm not fully on board with an Omastar retest, but I guess it won't be as broken as it was back then (Fuck yeah, Gallade).
     
  23. monkeyeatingeagle

    monkeyeatingeagle Banned

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    FREE OMASTAR
     
  24. iris

    iris Member

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    Yes i agree, but texas, no one trusts ginku's opinion!
     
  25. marmoteo

    marmoteo Member

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    Alright. I've had no luck finding 1996ITO in the server and he obviously hasn't bothered lurking around the forums to post in any of the LU threads, so I haven't been able to check where he stands with Moltres and Omastar. And since it's been a week since tier changes and time is of essence, I'm going to make the decision of re-testing both Omastar and Moltres. You will find separate threads dedicated to each of them soon.
     
  26. Halsey

    Halsey Wildstar

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    oh damn I just wanted a Moltres retest, but I can live with this.
     
  27. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    It's good to test both at the same time, since offensive Moltres checks Omastar 90% of the time through HP Grass anyway.
     
  28. Halsey

    Halsey Wildstar

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    has anyone else noticed the severe lack of Sand teams in this period?

    Last period they were everywhere, they weren't actually good and they relied in massive hax to do anything to a well built team. but tier hey were common. However In the 60+ matches I played in this period I haven't seen a single Sand team.

    I know Gligar left (hands down the best Sand abuser and the most valuable member of a Sand team), but Sand teams are still viable in the current metagame, specially with Omastar around.
     
  29. Endless Sky

    Endless Sky New Member

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    Shhh BR! We don't want people to realize that they are still somewhat effective! No but really I've played at least 100 or so matches this period and I've seen one sand team. It was poorly made but the point still stands. I think the main reason they arent used as much any more is because Sand teams end up stacking their weaknesses so something Slowking can come in and do massive amounts of damage. Even Cryogonal can do quite a bit of damage considering the general lack of Ice resists on Sand teams.
     
  30. Halsey

    Halsey Wildstar

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    Since no one was running Sand, I decided to use it.

    I decided to not go with the "standard" approach, i.e: Hippopotas, Cacturne, Sigilyph, Cradily, filler and filler 2.

    My two Sand abusers are Omastar and Sandslash. The idea of the team is setting up hazards and spreading para, letting both Omastar and Sandslash to set up and sweep with less effort. Hitting Sandslash while being para'd and with Sand Veil activated is incredibly hard, specially because I am running a Sub SD Version (Mini Garchomp???), also the fact Sandslash is really bulky, without much investment in its defenses, means it has plenty of chances to set up.

    I haven't lost a match yet and I am at 1284, not bad for 1~ hour of laddering.

    The sad thing about this team is that I have swept more with Sandslash than with Omastar...
     
  31. Tyki

    Tyki Change

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    BR USING SANDSLASH? WHAT IS THIS?

    Anyway, Sand in LU still has viable users even without Gligar.

    Still got:
    Cradily
    Regirock
    Cacturne
    Sigilyph
    Sandslash

    And Omastar, Aggron, Aerodactyl, Mandibuzz and Gabite still appreciate the Sand.

    I still do not think sand is broken in LU, especially now that Gligar is gone. It's just a good playstyle.
     
  32. Halsey

    Halsey Wildstar

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    I still believe Sandslash is a terrible spinner and an awful wall / tank, that is why I am using this set:

    [​IMG]
    Sandslash (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sand Veil
    EVs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Swords Dance
    - Substitute
    - Rock Slide
    - Earthquake


    This set is both viable and unique, because nothing else in the tier can do anything remotely similar. Just make sure you get rid of Tangrowth before attempting to sweep with this...

    PS: The speed is to outspeed Max Adamant Aggron.
     
  33. Machineae

    Machineae ex NU leader

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    I never used sand in LU before and didn't even think of sandslash when I made this team~

    Hippo-Sigi-Esca-Omastar-Uxie-Magneton

    Not too familiar with the LU tier still so uxie and magneton were just filler from the box of LU pokes I made. Gonna check out sandslash you posted BR.
     
  34. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Hey BR. Fuck off and stop using Sandslash so it can go into NU already.

    Thanks.

    Just so my post actually has content, that Sandslash is also laughed at by Quagsire and Mandibuzz can phaze it fairly easily, despite having a rock move. And pretty much all the common grasses manhandle it, not just Tangrowth.
     
  35. Halsey

    Halsey Wildstar

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    You are underestimating this thing. The only grass type Pokemon capable of switching in without many issues are Tangrowth, Leafeon and Tangrowth, the only person I have seen using Leafeon is iris and I am yet to see a defensive Torterra in this metagame. Other Grass types can be worn down "easily" because of Sand + SR and things like Vileplume and Amoonguss cannot use Synthesis properly and they take 60+ from +2 EQ.

    Also Mandibuzz takes 50%~ + SR is 75%, then it has to hit Sandslash with Whirlwind, which isn't that easy because of the flinch chance + Sand Veil.

    Note that I am not saying Sandslash is an amazing sweeper, but it is pretty good in Sand and with the proper support.
     
  36. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    My response:

     
  37. iris

    iris Member

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    Has anyone noticed how good primeape is now? People really need to use it; screw the haters!
     
  38. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Yes, use Primeape in every team and watch yourself climb the ladder at record speeds!
     
  39. iris

    iris Member

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    if that is sarcasm mr nerd then i would love to inform you i got to the coveted #1 spot with a primeape a few periods ago. So, yes, your ladder ranking will climb (especially if you use a modest weezing too!)
     
  40. Machineae

    Machineae ex NU leader

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    Can't tell if srs or being iris .-.

    Will try out primeape. I just want the fucker to drop to NU.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2012
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