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[BW2] Moltres Retest

Discussion in 'Gen 5 LU' started by marmoteo, May 7, 2012.

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  1. marmoteo

    marmoteo Member

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    Moltres is going to be unbanned in Wifi LU for a testing period. In the past, this Pokemon was proven broken, so the purpose of this Retest is to see if the changes that occurred in the metagame during those months made changes in its position.

    Feel free to talk in this thread about the effect of Moltres on the metagame, useful sets, counters, checks, and what not. Remember that you will still be expected to put some thought and effort into your posts, so good reasoning will be expected.

    No suspect discussion regarding Moltres will be opened during the next two weeks, at the least, and it will be only opened if a good portion of the community feels Moltres is suspect worthy. Otherwise, it will just become another Pokemon in the current metagame.
     
  2. Darklight

    Darklight Nothing is True

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    So, I Guess I'm starting. Anyways, Perhaps the best counter to Moltres is Slowking, as it can wall almost anything moltres can throw at it and hit back hard with it's water stab, but as many people have said, it is week to Sub+Roost+Toxic set but that set is pretty difficult to make work and might even fail most of the time. And Moltres has a hard time switching into attacks too. With being 4x weak to Stealth Rock, it need to continuously roost or else it might even die without using a single move. Being weak to Volt Switch doesn't help either as there are Galvantulas floating around everywhere. also there presence of Lanturn makes Moltres's job even harder with Lanturn resisting every attack Moltres can throw at it except for Toxic or HP Grass/Ground, even they can only 2hko or 3hko, while Lanturn can Volt Switch or Surf/Scald at it. So In my opinion, Moltres should be allowed in LU again and should not be BL2.
     
  3. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Let's not start arguing if it's BL2 material within the first hour it has been brought back into LU.
     
  4. Endless Sky

    Endless Sky New Member

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    So I've been playing with Moltres quite a bit today and its seems to fit in the metagame quite nicely. Yes its very strong but with a plethora of safe switch-ins such as Lanturn and Slowking you can check it pretty easily. Not to mention that there are all those Scarfed Manectrics and Galvantulas floating around that can revenge kill Moltres.

    Also considering most people are so anal about getting Stealth Rock up Turn 1, it makes it harder for Moltres to maneuver. Obviously they can run spinners but Pokemon is played with Teams of 6 not 1 so its not too hard to fit a Ghost on your team but I digress.

    tl;dr Moltres gud. Fits in well.
     
  5. Ghostbone

    Ghostbone Member

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    Just want to mention that sunny day Moltres can also deal with the standard Slowking decently, as Solarbeam is a 2HKO (though it must watch out for thunder wave).
    With life orb it can even do 82.23% max, so with a little residual damage it OHKOs.
     
  6. Dasdardly

    Dasdardly Uknown Bird

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    I've been using U-Turn Moltres; 3HKOs Slowking- not that it matters since you're switching out- and doesn't afraid of anything. Yeah, U-Turn on something that takes 50% from rocks is pretty silly; but I haven't had anyone get rocks up on me yet. Pretty cool Pokemon, doesn't seem all that borked. (This is the first time I've used it, btw.)

    0Atk Life Orb Moltres (-Atk) U-turn vs 252HP/0Def Slowking (Neutral): 36% - 42% (142 - 168 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
     
  7. Endless Sky

    Endless Sky New Member

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    Life Orb Moltres seems pretty interesting. I'm guessing your forfeiting Roost then? Pretty cool option honestly considering you can U-Turn out of their "counter" and then proceed to retaliate in a way of your choosing.

    Personally I rather enjoy Specs Moltres with U-Turn instead of LO(in which case I'd rather run Roost). Specs Moltres hits so retardedly hard and I know being Choicelocked into a move on a SR weak mon is bad but man its just so powerful. I'm perfectly fine with hitting like a truck in exchange for being choice-locked.
     
  8. iris

    iris Member

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    LO without roost is never worth it no matter how well you think you play. Besides, that damage really isn't much considering Slowking has regenerator and the most common pursuiter is slower than slowking and speed creeping has begun. I could understand u turn / roost / air slash / fire blast but 4 attacks LO moltres really isn't worth it
     
  9. Halsey

    Halsey Wildstar

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    So I have been testing LO Moltres, in a team "focused" around it. Against offensive teams isn't that good because spinning is a pain in the ass and if you don't spin Moltres can't switch in 99% of the time. But it eats slowish teams without Slowking (and even with Slowking if you play smart) with hazards up(I am using Suicide Lead Omastar for that (if you don't know what that is you suck for not playing DPP UU)). Granted I have played only 8 matches with a new alt (busy day + I am sleepy, tomorrow I'll keep testing), so my opponents haven't been anything amazing, but I guess this is better than theorymoning crap.

    And I agree with Iris, don't ever use 4 attacks LO Moltres, it is a waste of a Pokemon. Almost as bad as 4 attack Sigilyph.
     
  10. Dasdardly

    Dasdardly Uknown Bird

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    I'm not using HP Grass because I figured I'd just be upset by what it didn't KO (HP always has that effect on me.) So I'm using Fire Blast/Air Slash/Roost/U-Turn. I'm pretty sure I haven't used Fire Blast yet.
    On another note, I think I remember Pnerd saying something about people who use U-Turn Moltres; but I can't remember what it was...
     
  11. two sides of one coin

    two sides of one coin sick of all her shit

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    Well, it needs a spinner to function, it gets walled by Slowking among others, its typing isn't great and it can't switch into many offensive threats.
    On the other hand, it doesn't have a bad movepool(U-Turn, Roost, Agility, Sub, Toxic, Air Slash, HP are all viable) and it can run a lot of offensive and defensive sets, it can switch into things like Escavalier with no fear(and don't give me the PREDICTED approach, most players aren't that good) and it can hit hard.
    So, I think it's viable for LU, but just about.
    But God help us if Slowking gets banned...lol
     
  12. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Slowking will never be banned. There would be a slim chance if this was towards the beginning of the tier, but there are far too many (good)checks and counters to it now.
     
  13. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    I don't think Slowking ever will be banned. In the right hands it can be deadly, but it's far from broken.

    I've been testing Moltres out in LU recently. This is the set I've been running:
    Moltres @ Choice Specs
    Nature: Timid (+Spd -Atk)
    EVs: 4 HP, 252 SAtk, 252 Spd
    - Overheat
    - Air Slash
    - Hidden Power Grass
    - Flamethrower (may seem pointless, but it means I don't always have to switch out after 1 attack)

    So far, my findings have been that while it's certainly a strong Pokemon, it isn't broken. Its X4 weakness to Stealth Rock means Rapid Spin support is a must, especially since Espeon and Xatu are in OU and UU respectively. Also, even with Hidden Power Grass, Slowking can survive 1 attack and then finish Moltres off with a STAB Surf. It also faces stiff competition from Typhlosion and Magmortar, neither of which have a X4 weakness and have STAB Eruption and a much more diverse movepool respectively. To be honest, I think it's fine in LU.

    I'm going to try a defensive set next, but my hopes aren't high as neither Fire nor Flying are good defensive types.
     
  14. iris

    iris Member

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    actually, flying and fire is an excellent defensive type since bug and grass are very common attacks in this metagame. Also, moltres should never have 4 hp especially on a choice set which means you can switch 3 times into SR instead of 2. Honestly, you are going to want uturn somewhere in there since moltres really switches out only after 1 attack too many times. It won't be finishing teams but opening them up. Moltres is far too slow with modest to effectively clean teams without immense support.

    Also, moltres honestly doesn't need a spinner to function. It is beyond useful to have one, but smart players can work around it. I used a motlres a lot in DPP UU where SR was just as if not more commonly used than LU without a spinner. People think you need to have to dedicate a team slot to spin but this is simply not the case. Just something to think about if team building gets too restricted which is the case for most players with a 4x SR weak pokemon.
     
  15. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    I've never really used Moltres before so I wasn't really sure what to do with it. My Defensive set has more investment in HP and S.Def (other than Rock, most of its weaknesses are to predominantly special types). It has a Timid Nature for better speed.
    Moveset:
    Will-O-Wisp
    Roost
    Fire Blast
    Air Slash

    I havne't tested it yet, but I already know it's going to be walled by Slowking. To be honest though, almost every Pokemon has something that can wall it.
     
  16. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    I'm pretty mixed on Moltres - it seems like a borderline case for me. Currently people are focusing too much on Omastar so I haven't seen enough of it around. From what I can tell, not a huge amount has changed for it, but that amount could probably be enough. Moltres still hits hard as hell and has a number of viable sets. Personally I've been running:

    Moltres @ Life Orb
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Fire Blast
    - Air Slash
    - Hidden Power [Grass]
    - Roost

    It works pretty brilliantly at being a long-lasting hard hitter with some excellent resistances (most notably the Ground immunity, 4x resists to Grass and Bug and the 2x resist to Fighting) with its biggest issues being the obvious stealth rock and fast electric types (Galvantula, Manectric). Roost helps it keep going really well as it's going to force a lot of switches (Moltres inspires an instant switch to Slowking for anyone who has it!) As far as I can see, Specs Moltres, while being very powerful, is also painfully slow for the tier (LU has base 95s as far as the eye can see, making it very difficult for Moltres with its base 90 speed to sweep), and being locked into its STABs or HP Grass (it will, a lot, if it ever wants to do anything to Slowking, Kabutops in sand, Omastar et al) is a bummer for it because they're very easy to switch into as plenty resist them. It's also not gonna last forever - it has good bulk and typing but some common weaknesses. That said, Moltres also manages to 2hko a heck of a lot of resists even with LO. I'm gonna remain on the fence for now but to me it feels like Moltres is gonna end up being back in LU.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2012
  17. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Just been testing a new set for Moltres.

    Moltres @ Heat Rock
    Modest Nature (+SAtk -Atk)
    EVs: 252 SAtk, 4 SDef, 252 Spd
    Sunny Day
    Fire Blast
    Solarbeam
    Air Slash

    It works very well, and once the sun's up even Slowking can't stop it. Solarbeam counters most of Moltres's weaknesses; with sun and STAB Fire Blast hits for 270 power. Air Slash gets some extra coverage against the Fighting types in LU.

    It's a strong set, but I wouldn't say it's broken. Stealth Rock really shortens Moltres's lifespan, so Rapid Spin support is essential for any set without Roost. At the moment, I don't think it should be banned.
     
  18. iris

    iris Member

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    you are going to want roost / morning sun over air slash though
     
  19. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    About these suspect discussion threads, can anyone start one? I'm thinking of starting a thread to discuss the possibility of Abomasnow being allowed back in UU.

    As for Moltres, I stand by my arguments. Yes it's strong, but it's X4 Stealth Rock weakness and its limited movepool mean it isn't broken in LU. Don't ban.
     
  20. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    About the suspect threads:

    Basically, if we don't think Moltres is broken there's no need for one. Which is why people have treated this like a suspect thread.

    I think it's fine now, for reasons already stated earlier.
     
  21. Halsey

    Halsey Wildstar

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    Only tier leaders can start suspect discussion. If you want to discuss about unbanning Abomasnow in UU post here

    Not much to say about Moltres, I am still testing on the ladder. I don't believe it is broken right now, but it is obviously a huge threat in the metagame. (Unlike Omastar...)
     
  22. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Yeah, Omastar's really not the dangerous sweeper some people (mostly me) thought it would be. Moltres is strong, no denying that. But unfortunately, with higher speed and (in sun with Solar Power) higher special attack, Charizard does seem to be a superior offensive Pokemon. Moltres makes up for that it bulk, although when I tried a defensive set (Will-O-Wisp, Flamethrower, Roost, Air Slash) it didn't go well at all.
     
  23. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    BROKENZARD does better than Moltres in terms of using specs due to coverage, but saying Charizard is the better offensive pokemon isn't exactly true. While the higher speed is nice, using Solar Power isn't that ideal with the whole having less than average bulk and draining your health. LO Moltres' main draw is the fact that it just hits so incredibly hard; actually, if Charizard has no Life Orb, it hits only a little harder than Moltres. The difference is nearly negligible, and Moltres has the bulk to be able to roost on more threats than Zard.

    Also, always run sub on defensive Moltres. It should be status move/roost/sub/STAB(preferably Flamethrower), with a speedy defensive spread. Also Toxic is almost always superior, as it lets you substantially weaken Slowking among other threats with reliable recovery with Substitute+Roost stall.
     
  24. fidgety

    fidgety Active Member

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    Finnally got a bit of testing this morning, not broken, the meta is just too offensive for Moltres, to be what it once was, I've been using the usual set (More offensive Version of the sub-Roost set with Drapion for T-Spikes), despite huge sums of hazard support, a spinner, and team members capable of wearing down its checks it just hasn't been following up.
     
  25. 1996ITO

    1996ITO Member

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    So, first I wanna say sorry because I've been unable to enter the web many times (it blocked always when loading, but thanks to IFM I can now get into).
    Second, I read nearly all posts, and my opinion is much the same as others: Moltres is a strong and strategic pokémon to use in the LU tier with two effective sets, the first: SubRoost set with a STAB move (Flamethrower), and a status move, usually Toxic. Although annoying, with the pressure of this offensive tier it's not that treaten, and can't do anything against pokémon such as Lanturn, RestTalk Munchlax. The second set is the Specs one, which can be so powerful, but usually predictable and Munchlax and Slowking can switch safely into it.

    So yeah, it's a powerful poké but not deadly/broken, etc.
     
  26. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I think it's been long enough, and the majority of the people I've talked to do not think Moltres(or Omastar) is broken.
     
  27. iris

    iris Member

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    Are you sure its not broken, Metagross doesn't counter moltres.

    It's been a pretty fun metagame not gonna lie. Champion Pnerd to lead Lu to greatness with the shades
     
  28. Halsey

    Halsey Wildstar

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    I gotta agree with Iris. I have enjoyed this metagame a lot and I don't believe Moltres is broken.

    It is an important force in the metagame and you need to be prepared to face it, but it isn't broken.
     
  29. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Missed it by a day, Memorial Day weekend has me busy with things besides pogeymans.

    Speaking of which, I don't have time to post my reasoning so will do later if people really want me to, but Moltres is simply another pokemon in the metagame now.
     
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