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[BW2] A Guide to Countering Smash Pass (Ubers)

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by puregenius, Jun 6, 2012.

  1. puregenius

    puregenius :<

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    5th Gen Ubers/SmashPass

    Smash pass refers to the use of Smeargle (or Gorebyss/Huntail if that's what floats your boat) to Baton Pass a Shell Smash boost turning the receiver into a deadly sweeper. This often sweeps many unprepared teams.

    It is assumed in this guide that the opposing Smeargle will always smash first. If they do spore first, immediately switch to your phazer.

    The Receiver

    It is important to note that any pokemon can receive smash pass, but the most common receiver is Dialga. Need a list of viable recipients? Look at the entire uber tier list minus Gira and Lugia. Other recipients are best handled by priority, bulky pokemon or simply preventing the pass.

    [​IMG]
    Dialga @ Life Orb/ Lum Berry/ White Herb
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: X
    X Nature (+X, -X)
    - Brick Break/ Aura Sphere
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Thunder
    - Flamethrower

    If they pass to dialga, this is what you can expect to see most of the time, but his movepool is so big you can never really tell. White herb variants make dialga even harder to kill, lum berry can screw with some of its counters and life orb is just scary. With the above moves, only a tiny amount of pokemon can take a hit. Lugia, one of the few that can take a hit, will be ohkoed if stealth rocks are on the field

    The Passer

    [​IMG]
    Smeargle (M) @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Own Tempo
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Shell Smash
    - Spore
    - Baton Pass
    - Ingrain/ Taunt/ Whirlwind/ Magic Coat

    This is the standard Smeargle set and is, fortunately, much more concrete than the dialga set. Here's how smash pass usually goes down:

    -The opponent will clear the field of hazards
    -Smeargle will be sent in on a safe switch
    -They will Shell Smash as you take Smeargle down to 1hp or switch
    -They will use Spore
    -Finally, Smeargle will Baton Pass as you sleep

    Counters

    Note: Only counters that have other applications are listed.

    General Counters:

    Offensive Pressure + Hazards
    If you can keep hazards up with a spin blocker of sorts and maintain a nice amount of pressure, the opponent cannot pull off a pass

    Phasers:
    If you can phase (Dragon Tail is even better as it breaks sashes), you can force the opponent to Spore early. At this point, it is in your best interest to bring in your strongest attacker and murder the -1 switch in.

    Good Dragon Tailers: Dialga, Giratina/-o, Lugia
    Other Good Phasers: Skarmory, Def Arceus, Groudon, Def Ho-oh

    Specific Counters:

    Prankster Users

    [​IMG]
    Thundurus (M) @ Focus Sash/ Leftovers
    Trait: Prankster
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Taunt
    - Thunder Wave
    - Grass Knot
    - Volt Switch/ Thunder/ Thunderbolt

    Arguably the best smash pass counter. If the opponent has yet to pass, he can easily come in and stop smeargle with priority Taunt. If for some reason you didn't send Thundurus in, he can easily come in and cripple the recipient (unless they opt to pass to a ground type pokemon).

    [​IMG]
    Tornadus @ Life Orb
    Trait: Prankster
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid
    - Tailwind
    - Hurricane
    - Hammer Arm
    - Taunt

    Tornadus is usable over Thundurus, as it possesses the niche of setting up Tailwind. If Smeargle pulls off a successful pass, Tornadus cannot disable the recipient. Instead, he can set up tailwind to prepare for the sweep on a team mate.

    [​IMG]
    Whimsicott (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Prankster
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SDef
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Taunt
    - Leech Seed
    - Substitute
    - Encore

    While he must compete with both Shaymin-S and Jumpluff (ftw) in the role of sub-seeding, Whimsicott is easily the most reliable smash pass counter out of the three. It differentiates itself from Thundurus by being able to sub-seed.

    [​IMG]
    Sableye (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Prankster
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SDef
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Taunt
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Recover
    - Knock Off

    The reason to use Sableye over Thundurus or Whimiscott is that he can be a check to EK Arceus.

    Non-adamant silk scarf or Lum - 252 +2 Atk Arceus Shadow Claw vs 252 HP/252 Def Sableye: 45.07% - 53.29%
    Non-adamant silk scarf or Lum (Burned) - 252 +2 Atk Arceus Shadow Claw vs 252 HP/252 Def Sableye: 22.7% - 26.97%

    Adamant silk scarf or Lum - 252 +2 Atk Arceus (+Atk) Shadow Claw vs 252 HP/252 Def Sableye: 49.34% - 58.22%
    Adamant silk scarf or Lum (Burned) - 252 +2 Atk Arceus (+Atk) Shadow Claw vs 252 HP/252 Def Sableye: 24.67% - 29.28%

    Non-adamant LO - 252 +2 Atk Life Orb Arceus Shadow Claw vs 252 HP/252 Def Sableye: 58.88% - 69.08%
    Non-adamant LO (burned) - 252 +2 Atk Life Orb Arceus Shadow Claw vs 252 HP/252 Def Sableye: 29.61% - 34.87%

    Adamant LO - 252 +2 Atk Life Orb Arceus (+Atk) Shadow Claw vs 252 HP/252 Def Sableye: 64.14% - 75.66%
    Adamant LO (burned) - 252 +2 Atk Life Orb Arceus (+Atk) Shadow Claw vs 252 HP/252 Def Sableye: 32.24% - 37.83%[/HIDE]

    Focus Sash Attackers

    For this to work, you obviously have to be able to keep hazards off your field. Basically, you just let the sash absorb the hit and then kill afterwards.

    [​IMG]
    Deoxys-A @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Mild Nature (+SAtk, -Def)
    - ExtremeSpeed
    - Psycho Boost
    - Superpower
    - Shadow Ball

    Superpower instantly murders any Dialga or Arceus, Shadow Ball kills Mewtwo passes and Psycho Boost nails Kyogre passes. Evs can be switched to anything.

    [​IMG]
    Darkrai @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Bad Dreams
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Dark Void
    - Dark Pulse
    - Focus Blast
    - Nasty Plot

    This guy can be used before Smeargle has set up and as well as afterwards. Bad Dreams instantly breaks any sash. If he is not in at the time Smeargle is sent in, you have missed your chance and you'll have to wait for the opponent to pass before you can send him in.

    Choice Scarf Users

    [​IMG]
    Darkrai @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Bad Dreams
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Dark Void
    - Dark Pulse
    - Focus Blast
    - Trick

    Scarfrai outspeeds a max speed Smeargle at +2 and can easily Dark Void before they can pass. Outside of this, Scarfrai can act as a general revenge killer (ohkos Mewtwo after rocks), as well as being able to Trick a wall, which could bring a huge advantage.

    [​IMG]
    Shaymin-S @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Air Slash
    - Earth Power
    - Seed Flare
    - Hidden Power [Ice]

    Scarfmin is a rather risky counter. You must hope that Air Slash Flinches or you lose.

    Lum Berry + Priority

    [​IMG]
    Rayquaza @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Air Lock
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
    - Outrage
    - Dragon Dance
    - ExtremeSpeed
    - Earthquake

    Switch this guy in and then use Earthquake. If they baton pass to Dialga, you have a good chance ohko
    252Atk Air Lock Rayquaza (Neutral) Earthquake vs 4HP/0Def Leftovers -1 Dialga (Neutral): 91% - 107% (312 - 368 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 46% chance to OHKO.[/HIDE]
    If you don't kill, he is easy pray for ExtremeSpeed next turn. If Smeargle Spores, then great :D ExtremeSpeed kills next turn.

    [​IMG]
    Arceus @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - ExtremeSpeed
    - Swords Dance
    - Earthquake
    - Shadow Claw

    Exact same as Rayquaza, except EK Arceus is easily one of the most splashable pokemon. Ev spread is changeable to whatever you need.

    Magic Bounce and Coat Users

    [​IMG]
    Espeon (F) @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Magic Bounce
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Yawn
    - Psyshock
    - Grass Knot
    - Morning Sun

    The aim of this is to reflect Spore. If they happen to predict the switch, then this Espeon can still put the receiver to sleep with Yawn and then kill it with another attacker.

    [​IMG]
    Xatu (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Magic Bounce
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SDef
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Haze
    - Roost
    - Heat Wave
    - Reflect/ Light Screen

    You can try to reflect spore, but i do not advise this as you may fail and the receiver will murder you. Switch Xatu in as soon as Smeargle comes in and then proceed to Haze away boosts.

    [​IMG]
    Giratina-O @ Griseous Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 216 HP / 252 Atk / 40 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Shadow Sneak
    - Dragon Tail
    - Magic Coat
    - Earthquake

    Good prediction is vital to the success of this set. Dragon Tail if they use Baton Pass and Magic Coat if they Spore. More challenging to use than other smash pass counters, but the reward is a free rage quit :D. This Giratina-O is also an excellent counter to Deoxys-S, reflecting any hazards it may set up and ohko'ing with Shadow Sneak.

    Defensive Titans

    [​IMG]
    Arceus-Grass @ Meadow Plate
    Trait: Multitype
    EVs: 252 HP / 144 SDef / 112 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Recover
    - Judgment
    - Ice Beam
    - Thunder Wave

    Grasseus serves as an excellent Kyogre counter. The main thing reason he is here on this thread though is that he can take a hit from +2 Dialga. This is what happens in the worst case scenario (life orb + positive nature):
    252SpAtk Life Orb +2 Dialga (+SAtk) Dragon Pulse vs 252HP/144SpDef Multitype Arceus (Neutral): 79% - 93% (352 - 417 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.[/HIDE]
    This is uncommon however, as most variations will use White Herb and a neutral nature. After taking a hit, Grasseus can paralyse and you can procede to kill Dialga however you see fit. Obviously, you should be using this set in the rain, as Flamethrower will destroy Grasseus in the sun.

    [​IMG]
    Lugia @ Leftovers
    Trait: Multiscale
    EVs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 SDef
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Recover
    - Reflect
    - Thunder Wave
    - Dragon Tail

    With Multiscale, Lugia just becomes a defensive monster. Keep rocks off and you should be fine. Ideally, this should be used in the sun to avoid taking Thunders.
    252SpAtk Life Orb +2 Dialga (+SAtk) Dragon Pulse vs 252HP/80SpDef Multiscale Lugia (Neutral): 36% - 42% (150 - 177 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.[/HIDE]

    Other Arceus forms can be used, but each will only work under specific conditions, e.g. specially defensive Waterceus can only be used in the sun.

    Taunt Users

    Taunt users must be on the field before Smeargle.

    [​IMG]
    Mewtwo @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 80 SDef / 176 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Taunt
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Recover
    - Psystrike

    The obscure, but lethal Stalltwo. Taunt completely stops Smeargle and it allows you to do whatever you want.

    [​IMG]
    Deoxys-S @ Light Clay
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Light Screen
    - Taunt
    - Reflect
    - Spikes

    Dual Screen Deo-S can easily Taunt Smeargle before it can Shell Smash or Spore. If you fear Magic Coat, use Light Screen to make the Dialga recipient much more manageable (however at this point the opponent will most likely pass to a physical atker). The focus sash set is not listed here, as they almost always serve as suicide leads.

    Double Phazers

    Double phasing refers to the use of two phasing moves, along with Rest and Sleep Talk. This gives Sleep Talk a 66.6% chance of neutralising the Smash Pass.

    [​IMG]
    Giratina @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SDef OR 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SDef
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Roar
    - Dragon Tail

    Giratina can be used over its Origin Forme and Lugia due to its ability to hold leftovers and spin block. Also, unlike Lugia, Giratina is not weak to Stealth Rocks.

    [​IMG]
    Giratina-O @ Griseous Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spd
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Roar
    - Dragon Tail

    Giratina's Origin Forme is the least susceptible to entry hazards out of the three double phasers. Levitate grants Giratina-O immunity to Spikes, Toxic Spikes and ground type moves, while still taking neutral damage from Stealth Rocks. Giratina-O is also notable in the aspect that its Dragon Tails will deal significant damage (due to STAB and Griseous Orb) unlike Lugia and Giratina.

    [​IMG]
    Lugia @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure/ Multiscale
    EVs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 SDef
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Whirlwind
    - Dragon Tail

    Lugia holds multiple niches as a double phaser. It is the fastest of the three, allowing Lugia to phase uninvested base 90's and Tentacruel before they can move. Lugia's Psychic/ Flying typing gives it a neutrality to Dragon type moves, allowing it to wall the likes of Palkia (in the sun). However, if Lugia chooses to use a double phasing set, it can no longer abuse Multiscale as efficiently. Due to this Pressure is the preferred ability.

    Other

    [​IMG]
    Shaymin-S @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Seed Flare
    - Air Slash
    - Leech Seed
    - Substitute

    Sub seed Skymin must be in prior to Smeargle switching in. When Smeargle does switch in, you can either take your chances with Air Slash, or Substitute and stall out the recipient with Leech Seed.

    [​IMG]
    Jumpluff (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 252 Def / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Leech Seed
    - Sleep Powder
    - Substitute
    - Encore

    Screw the haters. I have swept countless teams with this. To beat smash pass, you should use this in sun. At 700 speed, Jumpluff outspeeds +2 Dialga and Smeargle. To counter Smeargle, Jumpluff can choose to either Encore the Shell Smash, or disable Smeargle for the rest of the match with Sleep Powder. Against Dialga, Jumpluff can use Sleep Powder and then proceed to stall with sub seed.

    [​IMG]
    Darkrai @ Leftovers
    Trait: Bad Dreams
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Dark Void
    - Substitute
    - Dark Pulse
    - Nasty Plot

    This Darkrai must be in before Smeargle switches in. Dark Void neutralises Smeargle. If you fear Magic Coat, use Substitute, put the recipient to sleep, and deal with it as you see fit.

    [​IMG]
    Ditto @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Imposter
    EVs: 252 HP
    Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
    - Transform

    This guy is probably the reason smash pass was a lot less prominent in DW ubers. After something has been killed, just switch him in and sweep the opposing team.



    Sand/Hail

    Sand and Hail are probably the greatest play styles at countering smash pass. If the damaging weather is up, you can attack Smeargle and bring it down to 1hp.

    Scenario a) He uses spore, Smeargle dies from sandstorm
    Scenario b) He uses Shell Smash, Smeargle dies from sandstorm

    Play smart and you should have no problems at all.

    Hail works similarly, but is hardly ever used.

    A jolly Excadril also beats a neutral +2 Dialga.

    Gimmicks

    [​IMG]
    Espresso (Espeon) (F) @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Magic Bounce
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Hidden Power [Fighting]
    - Psyshock
    - Psych Up
    - Shadow Ball

    The very reason I made this thread :3. I came up with this a while ago and it works amazingly. Here's how it works:
    -the opposing Smeargle uses Shell Smash or Spore as you switch in
    -if they do use Spore, it is less fun, but mission accomplished regardless
    -if they use Shell Smash, then this is where it gets fun
    -unless they're retarded, they will Baton Pass (if they use spore it's basically christmas)
    -Dialga comes in and you Psych Up
    -HP Fighting ohkos

    252SpAtk +2 Espeon (+SAtk) Hidden Power (Fighting) in Rain vs 4HP/0SpDef Leftovers -1 Dialga (Neutral): 146% - 173% (502 - 592 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.
    With white herb:
    252SpAtk +2 Espeon (+SAtk) Hidden Power (Fighting) in Rain vs 4HP/0SpDef Leftovers Dialga (Neutral): 97% - 115% (334 - 394 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 86% chance to OHKO.[/HIDE]

    -and then they proceed to be swept (most rage quit after seeing their dialga go down)

    Good. Fucking. Game.

    Final Notes

    -Feel free to suggest sets
    -Thanks for reading
    -Discuss :D
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2012
  2. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Very good threat. I haven't tried most of the methods you listed, but I have tried tricking a Choice Scarf onto Smeargle and it works brilliantly. Once any good opponent sees you have an Espeon/Xatu in your party, they'll be much more cautious throwing Spore around.

    I haven't come across SmashPass much in Ubers, but the few times I've seen it Smeargle has been the lead Pokemon. The people I've battled using it didn't try to use it late game because of the problems you listed with hazards.
     
  3. Butter

    Butter Warm, buttery goodness.

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    I think substitute users deserve a mention under the "counters" section. Also, I would mention Giratina-O as a possible receiver of the boosts.
     
  4. Donkey

    Donkey Banned

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    Decent guide, but you're missing a few of the best ways to deal with smashpass and overemphasize some ways. Whimsicott, Thundurus, those scarfers you listed, and Magic Bouncers are okay checks, except all of these pokes/strategies aren't really THAT viable in the uber tier.

    Espeon and Xatu have an undoubtable niche in bouncing back hazards, but that niche does not include beating smashpass. Running Haze, Psych Up, or even Yawn merely waste a move slot, as you will not be playing smashpass the majority of the time and both Espeon and Xatu do better with other sets. Aslo,if a good smash passer sees Xatu or Espeon on your team they will NOT use spore. They'll simply pass on the switch, and go into Dialga. Psych Up will only work if you manage to get Espeon in at the perfect time, and Haze Xatu works once but is forced out immediately.

    In regards to those three scarfers you listed, Darkrai is the only one I'd consider using. Once again, you can't assume Dialga will be at -1 -- most smash passers use White Herb on Dialga. That means that Shaymin and Mewtwo are just weakening Dialga, which isn't enough. Rather than focusing on beating a pokemon already passed the smashpass boost, it's more important to focus on beating Smeargle and preventing a pass. Scarf Shaymin-S and Scarf Mewtwo are also pretty weak both to priority, and offensively. The reason people use both pokemon is for the versatility in their sets (CM Mewtwo, Seed Flare/Air Slash/Leech Seed/Substitute set). Scarfers being locked into one move is always bad, but for Mewtwo and Shaymin is is kind of worse.

    Sub Shaymin-S deserves a mention more so than scarf Shaymin, since you can Air Slash Smeargle to death, and worse case Sub then leech seed Dialga and stall it down.

    Additionally, Sableye deserves a mention. It's way more viable than the other two Prankster uses listed. Sableye is a very good check to standard SD Arceus. As you can see from the calcs below, WoW Sableye will beat Arceus in almost every case. If Arceus has Lum, the only way Sableye will lose to it is if it misses WoW. Otherwise, the calcs below will be halved, since Prankster allows for priority WoW and then priority recover. It's a great Ekiller Arceus check, and is much more viable than Thundy or Whims.

    Calcs:
    Non-adamant silk scarf or Lum - 252 +2 Atk Arceus Shadow Claw vs 252 HP/252 Def Sableye: 45.07% - 53.29%
    Non-adamant silk scarf or Lum (Burned) - 252 +2 Atk Arceus Shadow Claw vs 252 HP/252 Def Sableye: 22.7% - 26.97%

    Adamant silk scarf or Lum - 252 +2 Atk Arceus (+Atk) Shadow Claw vs 252 HP/252 Def Sableye: 49.34% - 58.22%
    Adamant silk scarf or Lum (Burned) - 252 +2 Atk Arceus (+Atk) Shadow Claw vs 252 HP/252 Def Sableye: 24.67% - 29.28%

    Non-adamant LO - 252 +2 Atk Life Orb Arceus Shadow Claw vs 252 HP/252 Def Sableye: 58.88% - 69.08%
    Non-adamant LO (burned) - 252 +2 Atk Life Orb Arceus Shadow Claw vs 252 HP/252 Def Sableye: 29.61% - 34.87%

    Adamant LO - 252 +2 Atk Life Orb Arceus (+Atk) Shadow Claw vs 252 HP/252 Def Sableye: 64.14% - 75.66%
    Adamant LO (burned) - 252 +2 Atk Life Orb Arceus (+Atk) Shadow Claw vs 252 HP/252 Def Sableye: 32.24% - 37.83%
    [/HIDE]

    And here is what I would add, imo the best ways to defensively beat smash pass:
    - Taunt Mewtwo (Stalltwo)
    - 274 speed or higher Dialga or Groudon with Lum Berry, a phasing move, and a STAB move (232 speed evs)
    - Volt Switch Forretress or Zekrom to priority or a poke with Lum berry (since they generally always smash on turn 1 you can get away with it)
    - If Dialga is passed --> leech seed, Willowisp, basically anything to wear it down helps. Arceus Rock in sand can take an Aura Sphere, various Arceus forms in rain can take hits as well.

    Keep in mind Deo-S and Cloyster are used on smashpass so sash is not always reliable.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2012
  5. puregenius

    puregenius :<

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    Will add sableye when I get home
    Will add a section where you must be in when smeargle switches in to counter (stalltwo, sub seed shaymin-s, sub users)
    Haze xatu and psych up espeon always counters. As soon as they switch smeargle in, you switch ur bouncer in, they can never pull smash pass off. Smeargle needs 2 turns to smash and pass, xatu/espeon also needs 2 turns to switch in and haze/psych up
    The calce were done at -1, so obviously whit herb variants would have to be stopped with other Pokemon (thundurus) or stopped before they achieve a pass (lum berry and priority, espeon/xatu)
    I definitely disagree about thundurus I think he's perfectly viable
     
  6. Donkey

    Donkey Banned

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    Xatu and espeon depend on what your opponent leads with, and when they decide to go into smeargle. Sometimes Smeargle isn't brought in until several turns in. If you have to bring into an offensive poke to kill something before Smeargle is brought in, xatu/espeon wouldn't counter it. Most of the time Deo-S is used as lead, and could always carry shadow ball or something.

    Assuming they don't use Ingrain, a lum phaser always would counter it.
     
  7. puregenius

    puregenius :<

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    Well worst case scenario u don't get to reflect hazards

    Anyway it doesn't matter what turn smeargle switches in (as long as espeon is alive)
    He switches in (after something has died)
    He will most likely use shell smash while I switch espeon in
    While he baton passes, I use psych up

    Forgot to mention sand and deo s

    Wat phasers commonly carry lum? groudon?
     
  8. チャンピオンワタル

    チャンピオンワタル HYPER BEAM!

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    【天龍神】 ワタル
    Actually, Yawn is an overall excellent move on Espeon, as after it switches in to reflect a layer of entry hazards (which is this Pokémon's primary purpose), it can then use Yawn repeatedly, forcing the opponent to either keep on switching between their Pokémon and racking up damage on their team due to their own entry hazard that they set up upon themselves, or finally give up and let one of their Pokémon fall to sleep, which is a win-win situation unless the opponent has either a Lum Berry Pokémon or a Magic Bounce Pokémon of their own.

    And Haze Xatu, especially given a Focus Sash, can be useful outside of countering Smeargle, as it can save its trainer in desperate situations at times, similar to Curse Chandelure and Perish Song Arceus.

    Also, something else worth mentioning about both Espeon and Xatu as counters to the Shell Smash + Baton Pass strategy is that neither of them can have their work nullified by Smeargle's Ingrain.

    Anyway, excellent guide, puregenius. And I'm happy to see some of my own sets being listed there :)
     
  9. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Although Yawn's use is situational, it's great for forcing switches. Yawn is a nightmare for Baton Passers - they can either stay in and become a sitting duck, switch out and lose the boosts, or pass the Yawn to a teammate. It's a no-win situation.
     
  10. Butter

    Butter Warm, buttery goodness.

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    Psych-up Espeon has no niche outside of (shakily) countering smashpass, and neither does haze Xatu for that matter. I wouldn't mention either sets, as they are not viable in ubers.
     
  11. チャンピオンワタル

    チャンピオンワタル HYPER BEAM!

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    【天龍神】 ワタル
    Although not technically a counter, I believe that Ditto definitely deserves a mention as a Pokémon that can revenge-kill just about any Pokémon to which Shell Smash is passed, as long as such a Pokémon is not behind a Substitute of course, and possibly even reverse that Pokémon's sweep.
     
  12. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    If you want a Transformer, Mew does that much better than Ditto (in Wifi Uber anyway, since Impostor hasn't been released yet). Due to Mew's massive movepool and good all round stats, it's very unpredictable. You send out a Ditto, people will know exactly what you're going to do with it. With a Mew, they won't really know until you start attacking.

    I wonder what tier Ditto will be in when Imposter gets released? I'm betting OU.
     
  13. Blitzamirin

    Blitzamirin Waluigi! Number one!

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    He means DW Ubers, as Ditto can just turn into any Pokémon immediatedly, and turn that sweep upside down (Choice Scarf)
     
  14. Butter

    Butter Warm, buttery goodness.

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    Transform Mew? Don't make me laugh.
     
  15. Donkey

    Donkey Banned

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    It's probably not a good idea to refer to DW Ubers so much in this forum. Generally everything is in terms of Wifi, I notice you mention things like Chandelure, Espeon, Multiscale Lugia quite a bit. While generally those sets are good for what is being discussed, people are looking for Wifi Uber checks and counters.
     
  16. pokemon0078

    pokemon0078 Member

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    Literally every Manaphy.
    With Hydration, Manaphy heals right away from Spore, 2HKOing Smeargle with ease.

    Gliscor @ Leftovers
    Trait: Poison Heal
    EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 Spd
    Jolly
    - Substitute
    - Protect
    - Toxic
    - Earthquake
    Gliscor can Protect on the Spore, then proceeding to Toxic + Earthquake Smeargle to death.

    Heracross @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Guts
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant / Jolly
    - Megahorn
    - Close Combat
    - Sleep Talk
    - Stone Edge / Night Slash / Pursuit
    Heracross can Sleep Talk, ignoring Smeargle's Spore, and 2HKO with any of its attacks.

    Tornadus @ Life Orb
    Trait: Prankster
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid
    - Tailwind
    - Hurricane
    - Hammer Arm
    - Taunt
    Tornadus can be used over Thundurus because of Tailwind support and powerful Hurricane.

    Garchomp @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Sand Veil
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly
    - Outrage
    - Earthquake
    - Dual Chop
    - Stone Edge
    Dual Chop allows Garchomp to blow right through Smeargle's Focus Sash.

    Primeape @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Vital Spirit
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Jolly
    - U-turn
    - Close Combat
    - Stone Edge
    - Punishment
    Primeape is immune to Spore and can 2HKO with Close Combat. Primeape is also used for Darkrai.
     
  17. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Don't knock it til you try it. It works surprisingly well.

    Choice Scarf
    Jolly Nature
    252 HP, 4Atk, 252 Spd
    Transform
    Will-O-Wisp
    Trick
    U-Turn

    You can either Trick the scarf onto Smeargle, or Transform into (and revenge kill) the recipient. It's an unusual counter, but it can work very well.
     
  18. Sasha The Legend !

    Sasha The Legend ! ORAS

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    nice story pure but this threat is scary......anyway i'm banned so idc ,i just like it as it is ,at least i'll be the only smashpasser left,this is a war against smashpassers ,anyways as the best smashpasser i can say that all u need is an A deoxys with fire atks and sr u wich u lead with it can counter spinners or a skarmory in lead too......that's enough to counter smashpass........there is also seismic pink bulbs or t wave works too but u have to forget ur bulb if no seismic and softboiled.....anyone can simply counter smashpass by using one of those pokes espes with psych-up ,yawn,sash can counter too
    putting one of those pokes makes ur team weaker so the best solution is sand/standard stall.
    standard stall has 5 anti-smash-pass if u will sand stall just make ur exca jolly and leave it for late-game sweap
     
  19. Ascension

    Ascension Member

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    Just use Magikarp. Swift Swim + Splash = Unstoppable.

    No but seriously, you can't go wrong with Arceus forms. Groundeus and Fightceus take neutral damage from all of Dialga's attacks and can retaliate with super effective moves. Fireceus is similar in the sun. Other forms that take neutral damage can be designed to be specially defensive and given roar to handle Dialga.

    If you absolutely refuse to use Arceus, than you could give specslucario a shot. A +1 vacuum wave with a modest nature will usually OHKO a -1 Dialga, but this set is highly circumstantial, and really isn't practical outside of countering Dialga after a shell smash. Overall, I wouldn't recommend it, but it did help with shell smash teams.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2012
  20. .Rawr!

    .Rawr! c(°3°)כ

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    Man, your first examples of SP counters are bad:
    - First of all, the players what use smeargle like leader are noobs, it's so prevedible... a taunt and gg, u need put first rocks on opponent side (to break focus sashes, sturdies) and later sent smeargle in on a safe switch.
    - Second, i dont see how deoxys A is countering smashpass, or skarmory (ingrain is gg to whirlwind), or blissey (what can do it? seismic to death smeargle?)

    Instead your example of standard stall is a good solution: i had proved it, when smeargle is at 1 hp send ttar and sandstorm kill smeargle, or drill kill SP receivers too like u said


    Anyway, this guide looks like the only SP receiver is Dialga. I personally use Ho-oh, and it works wonders (in sun he is a beast, but if opponent sends kyogre, brave bird and EQ are good coverage too, plus recover)
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2012
  21. puregenius

    puregenius :<

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    been really really really lazy recently

    will probably update today

    (unless i feel lazy again)
     
  22. Firer

    Firer Owner

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    ok i didn't really got this... it can't work if sleep clause isn't already activated...
    If you come in before the Smeargle passed its boosts you will have either a +2 +2 smeargle against a +2 +2 dialga or a scarf smeargle against a +2 +2 smeargle...
    If you come in after he already passed to dialga you will be outspeed and ohko'd.
    So you need to transform the round he passes to dialga and need to be slower then smeargle, but that won't happen since he can just use spore...
    sleep clause must be activated, but if he plays smashpass correctly the round after he activates sleep clause he will have passed his boosts already to dialga...

    sry if i understood something wrong but i dont get it... this mew would need tremendous team support to work



    BTW even tho sucking outside of countering smashpass i just love this espeon <3
     
  23. two sides of one coin

    two sides of one coin sick of all her shit

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    Standard Extremekiller with Lum goes in, Smear SP's, you ESpeed, they stupidly Spore and Lum activated, you ESpeed again, they ragequit.
    Often Kyogre is passed to as well.
    Taunt Mewtwo with Lum, while situational, takes Smeargle apart.
     
  24. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Sleep Clause is nearly always active. I'll break down the way it works

    Scenario A: Smeargle is being used as a lead

    1. Mew Tricks the Choice Scarf onto it
    2. Mew is put to sleep with Spore, but Smeargle can't do anything else
    3. SmashPass is averted
    Note: Choice Scarf Jirachi can do this too.

    Scenario B: Smeargle has already passed the boosts

    1. Choice Scarf + Spd Mew can usually outrun Dialga (the usual recipient) even after a boost, which rarely invests in speed
    2. Mew transforms into Dialga and revenge kills it
    3. SmashPass is stopped.
     
  25. Firer

    Firer Owner

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    umm no not rly... i guess there are players who dont run speed on dialga (imo dumb cause then outspeed by scarf palk but kk)... i guess it would go like this then
    1. Choice Scarf + Spd Mew can usually outrun Dialga (the usual recipient) even after a boost, which rarely invests in speed
    2. Mew transforms into Dialga and gets ohko'd that turn by dpulse
    3. you get swept
     
  26. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    I forgot about the stat drops. Damn my being human and making mistakes! It can stop Smeargle before it sets up, so it is a counter to SmashPass. I was just trying to think outside the box. No harm in that right?

    Another Mew set which works well at stopping SmashPass.

    Nature: Timid (+Spd -Atk)
    Item: Focus Sash
    EVs: 252 HP, 4SAtk, 252 Spd
    Taunt
    Roar
    Thunder Wave
    Psychic

    Smeargle's useless after a Taunt. If one of your party has already been put to sleep, you can just phaze Smeargle or the recipient out. If Hazards aren't in play, it can cripple the recipient with Thunder Wave, eliminating its speed advantage and making it easy for a teammate to KO. Psychic is only there in case Mew gets Taunted.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2012
  27. Hobbes2

    Hobbes2 Aren't I dead or something

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    Hobbes2
    I find my typical smashpass (when i'm using it) battles play out like this ~

    1) i set up hazards with ferrothorn
    2) I phase a little bit, opponent spins hazards
    2.5) Generic Battling
    3) i bait the spinner with my ferro when they go to their spinner (usually tenta) i send out smeargle
    4) Spore the tentacruel
    5) Set up
    6) lalal sweep

    Giratina is probably the most annoying this to face for me because i can't spin away hazards for my sash smeargle to come in, making it an effective check / counter (idk really what it counts as) to smashpass. Other things like keeping offensive pressure to make sure i never get the chance to spin, or so i never get the chance to bring in smeargle effectively are good ways to stop smashpass. Once the pass occurs, stopping it is somewhat difficult. If i have enough hazards out (usually just rocks is fine, though spikes helps) i can ohko lugia and ho-oh with t-bolt (since i don't run rain but sun), the main thing that stops me is Blissey because i can't ohko Arceus without Modest Aura Sphere so i don't use brick break.

    tl;dr as long as you don't play like an idiot you should be fine

    I guess Giratina + Extremekiller Arceus (which is very common) + one hazards completely rapes smashpass because if you get even just rocks, they can't spin because spinblocker (unless they kill it first which you shouldn't let them do) and if they send out smeargle, bring on the spore fodder (or the lum arceus) then extremespeed it to death.
     
  28. puregenius

    puregenius :<

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    as long as they play u they should be fine
    its a bad idea to spore first, any player with an inkling of skill will switch to a phazer while u smash or a powerful atker which can ohko the receiver
    (not trying to be mean, i actually quite like u)
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2012
  29. Vincent R.

    Vincent R. New Member

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    I agree with puregenius, and complementing what he said:

    In such case (Spore first, Shel Smash later) you should switch in to a powerful attacker, because if you switch to a phazer your opponent could use:

    Ingrain, or Magic Coat (doesn't work against Phaze from Dragon Tail, but Whirlwind and Roar are much more commons), or Taunt to stop you from phaze.

    The problem is if their Dialga Smashed has White Herb, in this case your powerful attacker probably won't OHKO and you will die unless you have some powerful wall that can deal with a Life Orbless Smashed Dialga.

    Because of these things i guess it's better play very offensively since the beggining of the match, so Smeargle will never have a good time setting up.

    In my priority team, for example, all pokemons are faster than Smeargle with the exception of Scizor, and all of them have priority moves with exception of Dialga, but Dialga has Lum Berry + Stealth Rock. The few weak points i remember are:

    1-Let's wonder that i wasn't able to throw SR into opponents field yet, and i'm using Giratina-O at the moment, and for some reason (let's say Mewtwo) i click on the Shadow Sneak botton, so my opponent predicts it, switch in against Shadow Sneak cuz he's immune and he still has it Focus Sash untouched, so he set up Shell Smash and you all know the end of this story;

    2-Cloyster lead destroying me with Icicle Spear while i broke its Sash with Dragon Pulse, then i try to set up SR, but it rapid spins till i die from the Rapid Spin damage lol, now i'm running Thunder Wave in my Dialga to try get some parahax stoping it from Rapid Spin.
     
  30. puregenius

    puregenius :<

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    didnt see this earlier, but lay off the guy ffs
    dont jump on the hate wagon just because everyone else has and his english isnt so good
    he is skilled enough at smash pass to reach #1 on the ladder, although he may not express himself well

    also:

    but i guess i should expand on that

    anyway:

    -removed revenging as an option, due to inconsistency
    -added defensive titans (needs more)
    -added sand
    -added dw ubers
    -added other (needs more)

    will probably add gimmicks
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2012
  31. Firer

    Firer Owner

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    y np... And now im feeling bad, but again this just works if both of you send smeargle and mew out at the same time... many ppl first set hazards through deo-s etc.
    and then you will be outspeed... if your scarf or taunt or w/e


    btw while maybe a bit gimmick i think scarf deo-a can work... it outspeeds both smeargle AND dialga at +2 and ohko both with superpower while also being able to trick smeargle a scarf when it tries to spore you and sash is still active

    EDIT: at your lugia calc in the closing /hide tag a "[" misses...
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2012
  32. puregenius

    puregenius :<

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    Oh I just realised everything is released now will edit out dw tomorrow (on my iPod ATM)

    And I think that new set is largely outclassed by mewtwo
     
  33. eric the espeon

    eric the espeon is an espeon.

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    If you could add in a little more info about using smashpass to make it a general how to use+how to beat smashpass in ubers, this could be good on the wiki here: [WIKI]5th_Gen_Ubers/SmashPass[/WIKI]. If you're interested in working on it I can help with formatting and adding cool set templates like those used here.
     
  34. puregenius

    puregenius :<

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    and sure ete ill help with that, just let me ask my friends a bit, as im not particularly good at playing smash pass
     
  35. Sandglass

    Sandglass Member

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    Hey Genius :] this is ybss.
    It's pretty hard to set this scenario but yeah it works against smashpassing smeargles.
    Commonly they Smash first,Spore,and pass.I send out Genesect with Explosion there(baton pass)
    and explode~that does pretty big damage deal to Dialga
    So we can Extremespeed next turn or sth else~.+1 Explode does like 75~79% damage to bulkless Dialgas.
    :]]
     
  36. Bamarah

    Bamarah "Baton Pass Elite"

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    Explosion nor ExtremeSpeed will do anything to a Dialga holding a White Herb, I doubt it will do anything to the other 2 variants either (Depending on the EVs). Not to mention Genesect will die to a +2 SAtk Flamethrower.
     
  37. User Name

    User Name Life is a maze

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    Since this is almost a year old now, perhaps some refinements are in order?
     
  38. puregenius

    puregenius :<

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    completely forgot about this
    my bad ete
    guess ill update it when i have time
     
  39. Blimlax

    Blimlax A Silent and Serene Heart

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    Lum Berry Tyranitar needs to be mentioned here, it knocks down focus sash smeragle to 1 hp with just about any attack and then sandstorm finishes it off. Deoxys-S also should be highlighted in this guide, it's the most common (and probably best) partner for shell smash smeragle. It can lead and prevent almost anything from setting up, while also setting up useful hazards of its own for the shell smash recipent. To beat these type of teams an effective strategy I've found is to simply try and set up any hazard [after deo-s is forced out]. After that happens smeragle can't get off a shell smash without either sporing you first[in which case you switch out to a strong attacker and hopefully hoko the recipent, usually dialga] or they shell smash first for w/e reason in which case you just attack and hoko the smeragle. From that point on their team usually falls apart. Of course if you have something like lum berry arceus or priority[ex speed] then just makes everything fairly straight-forward.
     
  40. Titan Laser

    Titan Laser Ultimate Organism

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    Overlord GAIA
    A simple way to beat SmashPass: Bring Smeargle down to its Focus Sash with whatever Pokémon you have out as it Shell Smashes, and then let it Spore that Pokémon, which sleeps for one turn. Then stay in the next turn and select an attack that can heavily damage Dialga or pseudo-Haze it away. You have a 33.33% chance of heavily damaging Dialga or pseudo-Hazing it away on that turn.

    Of course, this strategy is completely luck-reliant, but who cares as "competitive" Pokémon (as the Smogon community and the Pokémon Online community both love to ignorantly call this game) is nothing more than a gambling game anyway.