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[Final] Charizard

Discussion in 'Gen 5 LU Analyses' started by Roku, Jun 7, 2012.

  1. Roku

    Roku sup nerds

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    On Wiki

    ==General==:
    Charizard is an excellent special sweeper in the LU tier. With base 100 speed, it is fast enough to outspeed most threats in the tier, its excellent SPatk stat of 109 allows it to hit very hard, and its diverse movepool allows it to hit many different threats. It is 4x weak to Stealth Rock, however, losing 50% of its HP on each switch-in, so good spinners are needed when using Charizard. Its defenses, while not excellent, enable it to take some hits, giving it some staying power in battle.

    ==Set 1(BROKENZARD)==
    Charizard (M) @ Choice Specs/Choice Scarf
    Trait: Blaze/Solar Power
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Air Slash
    - Fire Blast
    - Hidden Power [Grass]/Solarbeam
    - Focus Blast
    Set Comments:
    The choice set is Charizard’s most common and probably his best. Specs boosts Charizard’s special attack up to 474 with a timid nature. Couple that with a powerful STAB move with 120 base power, and it can muscle through most anything in the LU tier. Air Slash is used as a second STAB, as well as being useful against [[5glu|Hariyama]], as it resists Fire Blast with Thick Fat. Hidden Power Grass should be used to take care of the water/rock types in LU as well as [[5glu|Quagsire]]. Focus Blast rounds out the set, 2hkoing [[5glu|Munchlax]] and also being able to take care of rock types. Using a scarf is not recommended unless you have sun support on the team, as it is generally outclassed by other scarfers, notably [[5glu|Moltres]]. Similarly, Solar Power and Solarbeam should only be used on teams with sun support.

    The EV spread is just a max/max spread, as Charizard needs to outspeed as many threats as possible and hit as hard as possible to do his job effectively. A timid nature is needed to outspeed threats, most notably [[5glu|Rotom]]. Also, it should be noted that the extra 4 evs should never be put into HP, as it can only switch in on Stealth Rock once before it dies, while an odd number for HP allows for 2 switch ins.


    ==Set2(LORoost)==
    Charizard (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Blaze
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Fire Blast
    - Roost
    - Focus Blast
    - Hidden Power [Grass]


    Set Comments:
    A Life Orb allows you to have a similar power boost to specs without locking you into a move, at the cost of 10% of your health every move. Roost allows damage from the Life Orb or Stealth Rock to get taken off, and keeps it in the game longer. Focus Blast is used for the same reasons as the specs set, namely Munchlax. Hidden Power Grass is used for the same reason also, taking care of Quagsire. Charizard’s LORoost set is generally outclassed by Moltres, Charizard should only be run for the extra speed it brings, as well as the access to Focus Blast, providing extra coverage.

    The EV spread is just a max/max spread again, for the same reasons as the choiced set. The nature is timid to outspeed the same threats as well. Once again, the 4 HP should not be put into HP, to keep Stealth Rocks from killing you for as long as possible.

    ==Set3(Sunny Day)==
    Charizard (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Solar Power
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Solarbeam
    - Fire Blast
    - Sunny Day
    - Focus Blast
    Set Comments:

    With the introduction of the Dream World, Charizard got a nice ability in Solar Power, and this set maximizes that ability. Having to set up the sun makes it harder to get a sweep going, but is well worth it if you do. Solar Power boosts Zard’s SAtk up to specs power, while allowing for changes in moves, and has a STAB sun-boosted Fire Blast to hit like a truck.

    EVs are just max/max, allowing it to hit as hard as possible and outspeed as many threats as possible. The timid nature is necessary to beat many threats, notably Rotom. The 4 extra EVs should not go into HP, as that would only allow one switch in on Stealth Rock, while no HP EVs allows for 2.


    ==Checks & Counters==

    The most common and best counter to Charizard is [[5glu|Slowking]], which can’t be 2HKOed by anything Charziard can dish out short of a Solarbeam under the sun, then retaliate with a STAB Supereffective Water-type move or hitting Zard with a Thunder Wave, effectively crippling it. [[5glu|Lanturn]] is another effective check, as it isn’t 2HKOed by anything short of a Solarbeam, but it has no reliable recovery, meaning that it can’t switch in too many times. [[5glu|Omastar]] and [[5glu|Kabutops]] can come in on Fire Blasts and wreak havoc, Omastar gets a free Shell Smash, and Kabutops can KO with Stone Edge. Quagsire can take any move other than the Grass coverage moves and respond with Water STAB or Toxic. Munchlax checks Charizard too, taking anything other than a Focus Blast and can recover the HP back easily, then use Toxic and wait, or hit with Body Slam and possibly score a paralysis. Charizard is fairly easily revengekilled by the many fast Pokemon in the tier, [[5glu|Manectric]], [[5glu|Galvantula]], and [[5glu|Accelgor]] can all outspeed and OHKO.

    ==Other Options==

    Physical variants of Charizard can also be used, using Swords Dance or Dragon Dance for boosts. It has a not too awful Attack stat of 84, and a good physical movepool for coverage too, getting Flare Blitz, Earthquake, Rock Slide, Thunderpunch, and some others. Physical sets beat many of Zard’s usual counters, have a good surprise element to them.

    I hope this is what you want~
    ==General==:
    *Excellent special attack allows it to hit hard, especially with choice specs equipped
    *Has a good speed stat to outspeed most enemies
    *4x weak to stealth rock, so rocks need to be kept off the field
    * Decent defenses, can take some hits
    *Diverse enough movepool to cover almost all threats

    ==Set 1(Choice)==:
    Charizard (M) @ Choice Specs/Choice Scarf
    Trait: Blaze/Solar Power
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Air Slash
    - Fire Blast
    - Hidden Power [Grass]/Solarbeam
    - Focus Blast
    Set Comments(no special template needed):
    *Scarf outspeeds scarf rotom and rotom formes
    *HP Grass hits kabutops and omastar, having 4x resist to fire
    *HP should not be an even number, an odd number allows for 2 switch ins on SR
    *Timid nature needed to outspeed unboosted hitmonlee, sawsbuck, primeape, jynx, and more
    * Focus Blast hits munchlax, which otherwise can’t be touched, specs can 2hko, scarf cannot
    *Solar Power should only be used on a team with sun support, otherwise blaze boosted fire blast is better

    ==Checks and Counters==
    *Slowking can handle anything this set can dish out, and retaliate with STAB water attacks or twave unless sun is up, and the solar power set is being run, in which case fire blast and solarbeam both 2hko.
    *Muchlax can handle anything but a Focus Blast, and a fire blast under the sun, and can return with setting up curses, toxicing things, etc
    *Omastar needs to be watched, as it can get a free shell smash if it comes in on fire blast,
    *Quagsire, too, can handle anything this set can dish out other than HP Grass/Solarbeam, and retaliate with scald/toxic
    *Max/Max Lanturn isn’t 2hkoed by anything except solarbeam, and can return with a twave or water STAB
    *Easily revengekilled by galvantula if running specs, scarf manectric can revengekill the scarf set
    ==Set2(Sunny Day)

    Charizard (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Solar Power
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Solarbeam
    - Fire Blast
    - Sunny Day
    - Focus Blast
    Set Comments:
    *Requires setup, but hits hard after it sets up.
    *More difficult to set up a sweep than with the specs/scarf set
    *Needs timid for the same reasons as the other set
    *Same with the HP being odd

    ==Checks & Counters==
    *Your best bet to beat this set, if sun gets set up, is to predict what the charizard user will do, and then make an appropriate switch-in
    *Switching in something to outspeed and KO (galvantula, manectric, etc) while zard is setting up the sun can beat it
    *Like the specs set, sunny dayzard is easily revengekilled.


    ==Other Options==

    Charizard is really only ever choiced or run with sun.
    [/hide]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 8, 2013
  2. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I just removed the
    tags since you don't need them lol.

    I think there could be a mention of plain old Roost LO Zard. Although it doesn't hit as hard as Moltres, the faster speed makes it stand out and when played right causes switches anyway. You also need to emphasize why you would use offensive(specs, since reasons for Sunny Day are obvious) Charizard over Moltres - which is Focus Blast and the higher Speed stat. Also, don't slash Choice Scarf; it's simply terrible.

    Actually you could probably slash Life Orb and Specs instead of slashing Choice Scarf, since both actually play pretty identical, ignoring the whole locked into one move thing.

    For Other Options, include mentions of Dragon Dance and Swords Dance. Charizard can beat Slowking, Tangrowth and actually a majority of the things used on stall with a Swords Dance set(barring ridiculously bulky things it can't hit super effectively like Uxie), and Dragon Dance isn't completely outclassed by anything since it can still punch through things like Tangrowth and defensive Drapion. Hell even at +1 you can OHKO offensive Omastar with Earthquake.
     
  3. Roku

    Roku sup nerds

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    Okay, sounds good. But I slashed in the scarf set because it is used fairly often, so I thought it deserved mention.
     
  4. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Well...eh. I guess you could give it 2 or 3 sentences, but just say it's normally inferior since there are much better pokemon to use with a Scarf(Magmortar for one).
     
  5. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    Worth mentioning Accelgor re the Specs set alongside galv/manectric as it can easily revenge with HP rock. I would second the Life Orb being slashed in, Scarf is useful still so maybe could be mentioned in the set comments - but like pnerd says scarf is generally better run on Magmortar, Typhlosion etc
     
  6. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    IIRC the scarf set is run with sun support, I've never seen a scarfZard run without it.
    You definately need to add LORoost set, at least mention it in OO.
     
  7. Roku

    Roku sup nerds

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    Alright, suggestions added.


    ==General==:
    *Excellent special attack allows it to hit hard, especially with choice specs equipped
    *Has a good speed stat to outspeed most enemies
    *4x weak to stealth rock, so rocks need to be kept off the field
    * Decent defenses, can take some hits
    *Diverse enough movepool to cover almost all threats

    ==Set 1(Choice)==:
    Charizard (M) @ Choice Specs/Choice Scarf
    Trait: Blaze/Solar Power
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Air Slash
    - Fire Blast
    - Hidden Power [Grass]/Solarbeam
    - Focus Blast
    Set Comments(no special template needed):
    *Scarf outspeeds scarf rotom and rotom forms
    *Scarf generally outclassed by other scarfers, such as magmortar or moltres
    *HP Grass hits kabutops and omastar, having 4x resist to fire
    *HP should not be an even number, an odd number allows for 2 switch ins on SR
    *Timid nature needed to outspeed unboosted hitmonlee, sawsbuck, primeape, rotom, and more
    * Focus Blast hits munchlax, which otherwise can’t be touched, specs can 2hko, scarf cannot
    *Solar Power should only be used on a team with sun support, otherwise blaze boosted fire blast is better

    ==Checks and Counters==
    *Slowking can handle anything this set can dish out, and retaliate with STAB water attacks or twave unless sun is up, and the solar power set is being run, in which case fire blast and solarbeam both 2hko.
    *Max/Max Lanturn isn’t 2hkoed by anything except solarbeam, and can return with a twave or water STAB
    *Muchlax can handle anything but a Focus Blast, and a fire blast under the sun, and can return with setting up curses, toxicing things, etc
    *Omastar needs to be watched, as it can get a free shell smash if it comes in on fire blast,
    *Quagsire, too, can handle anything this set can dish out other than HP Grass/Solarbeam, and retaliate with scald/toxic
    *Easily revengekilled by galvantula, accelgor, etc if running specs, scarf manectric can revengekill the scarf set
    ==Set2(Life Orb)
    Charizard (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Blaze
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Fire Blast
    - Roost
    - Focus Blast
    - Hidden Power [Grass]


    Set Comments:
    *LO doesn’t lock you into a move like scarf or specs
    *Roost takes off sr damage
    *Roost shrugs off LO damage
    *Only reason to run this over moltres is extra speed, outspeeding drapion, sawsbuck, rotom, etc and access to focus blast
    *Odd HP again, same coverage moves

    ==Checks and Counters==
    *Slowking beats this set. It just beats it.
    *Lanturn can take anything
    *Hitmonlee can come in on anything but Fire Blast, fake out for the Unburden boost, and KO with stone edge
    *Munchlax can switch in on anything but a focus blast, and can take one focus blast to retaliate with body slam parahaxes or toxic
    *Aerodactyl can take anything without rocks up once, and can KO with STAB Rock
    *Easily revengekiled by Galvantula, Swellow, Manectric, Accelgor and the like.
    ==Set3(Sunny Day)

    Charizard (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Solar Power
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Solarbeam
    - Fire Blast
    - Sunny Day
    - Focus Blast
    Set Comments:
    *Requires setup, but hits hard after it sets up.
    *More difficult to set up a sweep than with the specs/scarf set
    *Needs timid for the same reasons as the other set
    *Same with the HP being odd

    ==Checks & Counters==
    *Easy to switch in while zard is setting up sun, then outspeed and KO
    *If sun does get set up, it can 2hko anything in the tier, so it has nothing that can switch in
    *Like the specs set, sunny dayzard is easily revengekilled.


    ==Other Options==

    Physical variants of Charizard can also be used, using Swords Dance or Dragon Dance for boosts. It has a good physical movepool for coverage too, getting Flare Blitz, Earthquake, Rock Slide, Thunderpunch, etc. Beats many of Zard’s usual counters, has a good surprise element to it.

    Alright, I THINK I am done, suggestions added etc.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2012
  8. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Yeah, I'll just wait for you to make sure you think it's ready for another serious read over.
     
  9. Roku

    Roku sup nerds

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    Making another post in the hopes it will get noticed now.
     
  10. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Oh. Oops. Just make sure to have a special mention of Scarf, in that it should only be used on Sun teams since it lacks power otherwise and there are better pokemon that can run a Scarf. Looks good so you get the sought after

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2012
  11. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    Just make sure to mention why one would use Charizard over Moltres, and you get my...

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    im so cool im not gonna use a seel.

    ...

    [​IMG]

    but yeah, approval, got nothing else to add, just follow what pnerd and xdevo said there. ~
     
  13. Xinc

    Xinc Time for Oras?

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    I think it is worth mentioning in Other Options that Charizard wants Rapid Spin support.

    Or else... :
    [​IMG] [/HIDE]

    I wouldn't cross out Belly Drum as a physical variant either.
     
  14. Roku

    Roku sup nerds

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    I was just going to mention in the general section that it need RS support. Other options is for sets of zard, not team synergy, I think.
     
  15. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    ...and I'm going to assume someone can take over this.
     
  16. Roku

    Roku sup nerds

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    Oh, shit, sorry. I didn't have word on this computer, and I was going to get it soon, so I put it off until I had word. Then I forgot about it until you posted. I will take care of it shortly.
     
  17. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Alright, changing the tag back to WIP then, thanks for wanting to write this up!
     
  18. Roku

    Roku sup nerds

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    Bumping due to me (finally) being done stalling
     
  19. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Just thought I'd mention that a Swords Dance boosted Crunch can punch quite a hole in Uxie. Very situational, but with a Lum Berry to avoid status, Max/Max Bold Uxie takes 44.63 - 52.54% from a +2 Jolly Crunch. A Flare Blitz off the same set also deals an impressive 49.43 - 58.47%, so Uxie isn't untouchable, far as I'm concerned.

    ...sorry if I'm just spouting useless crap. xD
     
  20. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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  21. Roku

    Roku sup nerds

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    I resent that you think my analysis required updating
     
  22. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Okay, I'll rephrase;

    Charizard's BW2 LU analysis has been added to the Pokemon Online Wiki. It had not been there previously.

    If you actually bothered to read it, instead of just 'resent' it, you'd notice that it's virtually identical to the one you posted in the OP.