[BW2] NEU tier discussion / suspect thread July-September 2012

Hi everybody!​

This thread is for more in-depth discussion about the unofficial NEU metagame. Talk about threats in the metagame, stuff that's overrated, stuff that's underrated, potential suspects and suspects. Make sure you have experience when talking about stuff, as theorymon doesn't help anything. If you have logs to back up what you say, even better.

Here is an exhaustive list of all pokemon allowed in NEU currently that are viable. If it's not on the list, then either you can't use it, or you shouldn't. Unless I made a mistake. In which case message me or something.

 

Zwelious could be a threat and could be an unstoppable tank.
Raichu has an insane speed coupled with a high enough SpAtk so that could be another threat and a possible suspect.
Heatmor also has a very high SpAtk.
Kingler has an INSANE Atk which can rip face if agility is set up.
The 3 monkeys could be very, very huge threats.

All in all that is a very, very good teir list.

 

Crawdaunt - able to 1-2hko the majority of the tier, even without a Dragon Dance

Dugtrio - able to trap non-flying or levitating pokemon and KO them

Mandibuzz - takes almost any attack, even if super-effective

Jumpluff - One of the fastest pokes in the tier, can excel as either a subseeder or SD sweeper with Sleep Powder

Okay, this one sounds crazy, but Stealth Rocks and/or Spikes should be suspected - there are very few viable rapid spinners in the tier, and they all get beaten by the ghost types like Frillish, Duskull, Yamask, or Banette.

I'll update with more pokemon (and hopefully get damage calcs) when I think of them and/or test them more.

 

Sigh.
I'm not even trying to be rude at all chippy but did you even read what was said? You are just saying what you think could be suspected without any experience playing.. By the way, I have not seen Zweilous in action yet but I have seen the others and they are not as much a threat compared to other Pokemon being used at the moment.

Great start to this discussion eh Aurist? XD

 

chippymunk... i put it in the very first post not to theorymon. please don't.

anyway i have a few thoughts on damp rock, not definitive ones but yeah.

as far as i have seen through playing with and against rain teams, no individual pokemon is particularly problematic per se. the main issue is that damp rock's extension very much pumps up the power of a large amount of pokemon - and all of which easily eliminate each other's counters. i've seen a lot of people try to counter or check rain, and some have done passably, but only to an extent - both teams can predict and try to beat, but rain really has a distinctive advantage. Having the 8 turns really makes a difference too - allows to switch to pokemon that beat stuff that checks almost free of consequence. I feel it may be the first thing to go, but don't quote me on that because there's a lot of testing yet to do and we may actually find viable ways to counter/check rain that aren't about totally counterteaming.

 

didn't understand the defenition in that post sorry guys my bad.

 

Okay lets start this off,
Damp Rock- I agree with Aurist on this and it has already been summed up nicely.
Mandibuzz- Could easily be a suspect imo, it hasgreat bulk and with access to moves such as Roost, Taunt and toxic and whirlwind allow it to outstall many threats in the tier and prevent setup by phasing out.
Hazards(lol)- The thing with hazards is, if it's banned it has the potential for focus sash user to run a muck through the tier, i would much prefer the hazard abusers that are deemed broken to be banned rather than hazards itself.
Also if hazards get banned and Mandibuzz does not it just makes it alot harder to take that annoying bird down.
Im not going to mention the other suggestions as i havent used or played against them enough to give valuable input.

 

Jumpluff is pretty absurd, in the few battles I've done I've been swept to the death by them. If you send in a counter you get sleep powdered. Golbat cannot safely switch in, due to Sleep Powder.

 

the thing about this is there's also a slew of viable sleep-immune pokemon that can wreck Jumpluff - Electabuzz, Noctowl, Hypno, Magmar, Vigoroth, Murkrow, Banette, hell even Delibird would if people used it.

i'm not gonna deny that Jumpluff is a really tops pokemon in NEU that can be difficult to deal with. I just think that we need to think closer about things before we go "suspect it!!!". Subseed isn't really a dangerous set, more an annoyer, only its fast sleep powder really does anything to contribute to a team's win. SD sweeper I would say would be undoubtedly its best set - but plenty wall it. You gotta remember it only has base 55 Atk- and its attacking movepool is entirely limited to its STABs - so, like Linoone, Steel-types (Mawile, Metang, Bronzor, Klang, Magnemite(?)) or Rocks that aren't double weak to Grass (Cradily, Lairon, Bastiodon, Probopass, Gigalith, Dwebble, Magcargo, Solrock) as well as many Flying-types like Golbat, Emolga, Mandibuzz, Pelipper, Togetic can take any attacks Jumpluff has to offer, even in some cases if slept, though in some with a team member slept. Sleep Powder is obviously what makes it most dangerous, but like with a lot of threats that can sleep in other metas there's definitely ways around it.

Anyway, I'd really like to see more discussion on the weather rocks. It's great to see discussion on some good dangerous pokemon in NEU but don't forget we also have an active suspect discussion here. I don't think it's necessarily "obvious" that the weather rocks are going to go - e.g. I can see only one major issue with sun (Victreebel)

 

The only thing in sun broken really is victreebel. Screw some shitty swords dance set (actually isn't that bad out of sun i'll be honest), Growth is what makes it broken. Access to weather ball, solar beam, and a hidden power give it excellent coverage and it can easily plow through teams after one boost.

Sun in itself isn't broken as the other abusers are easily played around / suck

I'll add more about rain later.

 

There's definitely a lot of things to test. I definitely like the idea of SR being suspected.

As for weather... no idea really. I imagine Rain is way abusable, and Sun less so. I haven't yet seen it in action, people need to start testing it.

Anyways, for this tier, I really wish we could get the tier into the Side Metagames section, maybe building it into a stable tier rather than a usage based one so people are less inclined to disapprove of it due to the extra attention and work that'll be required every two months.

The tier's great, but people will eventually lose their buzz on it and if there's no official tier anywhere, it'll just die unless we're REALLY dedicated to it. It's hard enough keeping a tier going when there IS a ladder.

 

Ok so, in sun, only Victreebel is good, Shiftry and Leavanny both are easily stopped. And I don't want to look as a Golbat freak but it stops almost all the sun abusers easily, Brave Bird ohkos everything without attack evs, and none can stop it, only victreebel can sleep powder it then a growth boosted Weather Ball will be hard to take. I haven't really seen rain so i can't say anything about it.

 

agreed that Victreebel is pretty much the only abusable thing in NEU sun - everything else is equally frail except also doesn't hit hard enough. I haven't found an opportunity with Victreebel to even set up, though admittedly I haven't used Sleep Powder on it yet, but it still wrecks stuff without setting up at all. Leavanny and Shiftry are both easily stopped by Golbat, other Flying types and most Steels, though Shiftry can give them issues with Nature Power. Neither hit hard enough or set up easily enough for it to be said that they are problematic in sun in my opinion - I think we should suspect Victreebel over Heat Rock. Bellossom is also cool in sun with SD/Leaf Blade/Drain Punch/Sleep Powder, but it's nowhere near as hugely threatening as Victreebel and again is weak to the zillions of defensive Flying types. Jumpluff doesn't care about double speed and doesn't benefit from sun in any way. I haven't seen Tropius in sun yet so I'd be interested to see that, nor have I seen Solar Power Sunflora which would probably be pretty hard-hitting but also so painfully slow and with no bulk. I'd be very interested to see Maractus in sun.

 

K, Suspect Victreebel it is!

 

i think you should allow murkrow as a counter to jumpluff.........if youre not going to ban jumpluff.......but just ban chlorophyll and rain. that would save us all the trouble of sun abuse.

 

Murkrow cannot counter Jumpluff, gets put to sleep then a couple of swords dance then acrobat and gg.

 

If you have another pokemon asleep already, Murkrow can prevent Jumpluff from sweeping using Prankster-priority Featherdance to screw with its attack boosts.

However, a better counter would probably be Metang, as it resists both of Jumpluff's attacks very well and can 2hko back with Meteor Mash; you would still need a pokemon to be sleep fodder or have a resttalk Metang.

 

Murkrow gets the ability Insomnia which prevents it from being put to sleep. If using that ability it is a very good counter to Jumpluff.

 

chlorophyll definitely won't be banned at this rate, but rain is a different issue. also i guess kennedy meant insomnia krow.

people are enormously overhyping jumpluff. which i never thought i'd say, because it's literally my favourite pokemon.

 

bump for BW2. a lot of stuff got important new stuff in the changes, so stuff is gonna shift a fair bit, including:

Sleep Talk Throh (it also gets elemental punches + pain split)
NP Liepard now has a STAB
Simple Swoobat + Heat Wave
Toxic Boost Zangoose
Ditto!
Berries for the monkeys + Tropius
Stunfisk, Gigalith, Seismitoad and others got Stealth Rock
Superpower Basculin
Seaking + Lapras get Drill Run

and probably more stuff too. discuss!

PS: re weather. mine and others' consensus is that rain is overpowered, and only victreebel is overpowered in sun. if nobody adds anything else of value within the next few days, i am going to ban Damp Rock and Victreebel from NEU.

 

ok, so starting as of this day, Damp Rock and Victreebel are banned in NEU. as well as this, here are the tier changes for this month:

NEU loses:

Duosion, Audino, Ampharos, Lapras

NEU gains:



Roselia, Rampardos, Rapidash


Duosion was a frequently used mon that I'm not surprised it went up, it was much more powerful in NEU and very useful but not broken.

Audino is a sad loss for NEU, it was extremely useful in a number of ways.

Ampharos was a tier favourite, especially with Agility or Specs, and was pretty good. I'm surprised it got more than 4% use as noone in NU seems to care about it.

Lapras was also common, being a good booster and one that just got even more bonuses from BW2.

On the coming to NEU side: Roselia will make spinning an even harder job and will probably make Tentacool the only spinner in the tier. It might even be a decent wall in NEU, also. Rampardos is just.... well let's wait and see, but with sheer force and its utter power it's just ridiculous, i'm surprised it's fallen and i can imagine it will be stupid in NEU. Rapidash was formerly presumed by many to be in NEU, and now it is. It will be an excellent physical attacker, and will probably be very useful with Morning Sun allowing it to abuse Flare Blitz.

discuss!

 

Roselia will definitely be a big hazard threat in the tier, esp. since Tentacool is one of the only good spinners in the tier.

Although I haven't tested it yet, Sheer Force Rampardos can probably wreck the tier, esp. with Sheer Force released.

Rapidash <3

I'm not too sad of the pokemon leaving the tier except for Audino...People need to use Crawdaunt, Mandibuzz, Jumpluff, and Dugtrio more so they can leave; I don't like them :'(

 

well, Vuvu's post earlier had summed it up.

Sheer Force Ramparados seems to me like a new top tier wall breaker, heck it could be broken, i've only done one battle with it but its fraility and weakness to scarf pokes hold it back. Rock Polish sounds interesting.

Rapidash <3

Tentacool gonna be on every team because of roselia.

 

audino is really the only decent pokemon IN NUthat can pull off a stall. she was my favorite 5th gen pokemon. she will be greatly missed. duosion was broken. idk how it even stayed in neu that long. i personally have never used/battled a lapras or an ampharos. on the other hand: we get a cute toxi spikes setter, :D a pony, :D and a dino.........thingy.................. anyways, i probably wont use any of these, because theyre likely to be banned again. but still. ROSELIA FTW! <3

 

Regigigas is actually a decent pokemon in NU. It's quite bulky, and can easily stall out the 5 turns with Substitute+Thunder Wave. Even with no investment, STAB Return from base 160 att hits extremely hard after Slow Start ends, and Drain Punch ensures it has a bit of recovery. Pair it up with a ghost trapper like Sneasel (also NEU), and you're good to go. It may not be an immediate offensive presence, but it can more than support the team and is not as bad as you'd think.

 

I agree, Regigigas is actually pretty decent, people don't use it because of slow start, but it can actually go defensive and easily stall 5 turns.

 

Regigigas is very bulky with a good BST as well as a good movepool. However, he does suffer from four-moveslot syndrome and his ability Slow Start also holds him back. Either way, he's a good pokemon to play in the tier.

 

Also, Meganium is highly underrated. It easily walls most of the attackers in the tier. Like Raichu, Electabuzz, Golduck, Seismitoed etc. and since no 4x ice weakness it doesn't have to fear HP Ice.

 

i really strongly agree with this. Meganium rules (in NU too, imho). It has definite advantages compared with Tropius (disadvantages too). I hope more people use it.

As a side note, we're likely going to have an NEU Forum Tournament soon, so keep an eye out for that.

 

While I still believe there should be at least one more near-mandatory ban (Crawaunt imo, etc.) the tournament should be entertaining.

 

anywho, in terms of spinners, SPINda can run a set consisting of rapid spin/teeter dance/retaliate/psycho cut. cut ignores it's weakness to ghost and fighting types which makes it an actually viable option on your team. however, this is plan theory (I know you said no theory).
pineco can run rapid spin and spikes in tandem, but is severly limited to in terms of needing eviolite to be anywhere near decent.
tentacool was already mentioned as a resident spinner so...
natu can carefully be used to auto bounce, but is limited to the skill of the player and not a true spinner
staryu is another weak spinner that relys on the eviolyte
baltoy i would never use (we don't use him in lc so...)
so there's six ways of dealing with hazards. personally, i would only trust spinda, tentacool and possibly pineco.

CONCLUSION: we need to suspect test hazards

 

However, spinda is really too weak to do anything. Unlike other pokemon that can spin and setup (Tentacruel, Forretress) spinda has nothing going for it. It's not bulky, not strong (Contrary Superpower really doesn't work) and not fast. So that's pretty much a spinner gone. Tentacool is really the only common one I've seen.

 

This thread has been moved to Side Metagames as it's now officially a Side meta. Please continue posting about the tier and what you think should be suspected etc!

 

I'd think ramparados. Banded head smash can 2hko almost the ENTIRE tier. The only thing that doesn't are bastiodon and metang, but both lose to earthquake. Even if it isn't banded, rock polish LO is a dangerious cleaner tthat can outspeed 99% of the tier (except for some scarfters) and hit hard with sheer force boosted moves.

 

Hazards are really bad atm. With only tentacool and a few other semi-viable spinners all blocked hard by Frillish its like NU extreme in the hazard department.

 

what would be proposed re hazards? it's hugely true that spinning is nigh impossible despite the lack of spinblockers because the spinners are so abysmal. hazards are extremely abusable in NEU. i guess there's a few options here. banning abusers doesnt seem like a thing to do as there is a fair plethora of passable pokemon that can get up spikes no trouble (Roselia, Cacturne, Whirlipede, etc) and there's no way i'd ban that many pokemon - and no one of them gets up spikes easier than the other really. I don't want to take the option of banning Spikes but it's worth considering - it's the stacking that's the main problem and SR and Toxic Spikes are perfectly manageable. I also don't want to ban spinblockers as they're perfectly manageable and very few in between, there's already not many ghosts in the tier.

 

I feel that the only reason spikes are a problem is because of roselia, which definitely needs a ban. I think the only other spikes set up is pineco. Rocks are manageable and help keep the big threats under pressure (golbat, mandibuzz, jumpluff, possibly articuno) Dugtrio and crawdaunt without a doubt need a ban. I feel that zweilous doesn't need a ban because of great eviolite physical walls, such as metang for dragon and shelgon for anything else. Piloswine is also a relatively good check to zweilous. Also while zweilous is a holepuncher, it is still slow and can easily be killed. Although I just though of the fact that whirlipede is here, which I feel might be too good of a wall/set up abuser. Also, I believe cacturne should be monitored for OPness :P

Edit: I also think throh needs ban because idek why it's NU in the first place

 

Well as for the Rock Polisher, pretty much everything poses a big threat to Rampy when attacking it, there are very few Pokémon that won't kill it or take it within range of a random Ice Shard or other priority move (which personally I've seen quite a bit of in NEU so far) with at least one of their attacks. (That or Burn/Para/Sleep it)
A banded Rampy really is powerful, however, it suffers from a really, really, really, apparent lack of everything else, speed, defence, special defence.. everything.
I do think that a threat lies in Scarf Head Smash Ramp' even without the boost from Band it destroys so much of the tier it's not even funny. Basically, if it gets in, unless you're running Bastiodon or Metang as Hobbes mentioned, you're losing something to it, or something's going within critical range, and this is made most dangerous by the fact that with a scarf, Rampardos can actually outspeed things, 354 Speed with Jolly and 322 with Adamant. Both of which will outspeed something like Zangoose, Jolly edges Rapidash (any nature), Electabuzz (any nature), +Speed Swoobat with anything less than 228 speed invested and any Swoobat that isn't + Speed, and +Speed Jumpluff. So yeah. Metro-sexual icon Scarf Rampardos can get pretty crazy. I personally don't think he's insta-suspect material but I think, he's something worth looking into in that regard.
Some calcs for fun
[secret]252Atk Sheer Force Rampardos (+Atk) Head Smash vs 252HP/252Def Eviolite Thick Fat Piloswine (+Def): 44% - 52% (178 - 211 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 7% chance to 2HKO.
252Atk Sheer Force Rampardos (+Atk) Head Smash vs 252HP/252Def Eviolite Whirlipede (+Def): 109% - 129% (312 - 368 HP). Guaranteed OHKO. (We didn't need to see that one)
252Atk Sheer Force Rampardos (+Atk) Head Smash vs 252HP/252Def Eviolite Roselia (+Def): 80% - 95% (246 - 289 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252Atk Sheer Force Rampardos (+Atk) Earthquake vs 252HP/252Def Eviolite Light Metal Metang (+Def): 42% - 50% (138 - 164 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 2% chance to 2HKO.
252Atk Sheer Force Rampardos (+Atk) Head Smash vs 252HP/252Def Eviolite Water Absorb Frillish (+Def): 73% - 87% (232 - 274 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.[/secret]
As you can see he does a whole lot of damage considering all of them are at absolute max defence and often people aren't going to run 100% max def, also factoring in SR turns a lot of his 2KO chances quite high.

As for Hazards,
Rapid Spinners that fall into NEU
[secret]Tentacool
Pineco
Tyrogue
Shellder
Kabuto
Sandshrew
Anorith
Delibird
Squirtle
Baltoy
Staryu
Drilbur
Spinda[/secret]
Yeah that's pretty bad. Although, personally I think once Spinda gets its Contrary Superpower made to work it'll be actually passable. I think banning Spikes might be a serious option to consider.

On what Winkledink said about Roselia, I don't think Rose is ban worthy, 2 main reasons: 1) As Aurist said there are other viable Spikers in NEU, like Whirlipede who will simply take its place. While I do feel Roselia has an edge over Whirlipede and other Spikers due to a stronger attacking potential and status moves I feel it's still a bit frail, personally most of my team will at least 2KO the Rose, with at least 3 able to OHKO with no setup (Unless you count Zangoose activating Toxic Orb as setup)
I think that Cacturne is an interesting case tbh, I think he'll function the same as he did in NU personally. I think he'll be a threat if he's allowed a setup, but ofc, unless he's got a sub and an SD up he's gonna be pretty well at the mercy of Pilowswine, Metang, Roselia, Whirlipede and random Scarfers that aren't OHKO'd by +2 Sucker Punch like Zweilous. I don't think he'll be that much of a problem personally as an attacker. But ofc he gets Spikes and that makes anything in this tier instantly 60% better, but yet again I think Spikes and not the users is what needs to go.
[secret]With Life Orb: 252Atk Life Orb +2 Cacturne (+Atk) Sucker Punch vs 4HP/0Def Zweilous (Neutral): 79% - 94% (228 - 270 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
Without LO: 252Atk +2 Cacturne (+Atk) Sucker Punch vs 4HP/0Def Zweilous (Neutral): 61% - 72% (176 - 207 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252Atk +2 Cacturne (+Atk) Seed Bomb vs 252HP/252Def Eviolite Thick Fat Piloswine (+Def): 71% - 85% (290 - 344 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252Atk +2 Cacturne (+Atk) Focus Punch vs 252HP/252Def Eviolite Light Metal Metang (+Def): 48% - 57% (158 - 186 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 22% chance to 2HKO.
252Atk +2 Cacturne (+Atk) Seed Bomb vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Sturdy Bastiodon (+Def): 40% - 47% (130 - 154 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.[/secret]
I think these calcs suggest that like most Pokémon, with a setup Cacturne is deadly, however, Cactus lacks real defence and has a LOT of exploitable weaknesses, no resistance to any priority but Shadow Sneak, Sucker Punch or Aqua Jet all of which are minimal in use in NEU compared to Quick Attack or Ice Shard.

Zweilous:
[secret] 252Atk Choice Band Hustle Zweilous (+Atk) Crunch vs 252HP/252Def Eviolite Light Metal Metang (+Def): 36% - 42% (117 - 138 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
252Atk Choice Band Hustle Zweilous (+Atk) Outrage vs 252HP/252Def Eviolite Whirlipede (+Def): 61% - 72% (175 - 207 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252Atk Choice Band Hustle Zweilous (+Atk) Outrage vs 252HP/252Def Eviolite Thick Fat Piloswine (+Def): 49% - 58% (201 - 237 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 25% chance to 2HKO.
252Atk Choice Band Hustle Zweilous (+Atk) Aqua Tail vs 252HP/252Def Eviolite Thick Fat Piloswine (+Def): 50% - 58% (202 - 238 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252Atk Choice Band Hustle Zweilous (+Atk) Superpower vs 252HP/252Def Eviolite Thick Fat Piloswine (+Def): 66% - 78% (268 - 316 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.[/secret]
These may be some of the strongest defensive Pokémon I've calced against but, from what I see there I see Zweilous no more powerful than Banded Ttar or Metagross in OU. It IS powerful and it hurts, but if you can catch it on an attack that's not ideal or with something faster, it's not so much of a threat as its raw damage output would suggest, it is quite easily beaten down by most attacks as it does lack notable resistances or defensive stats. (Bastiodon isn't featured in those calcs cuz it's ideal attacks and Zweilous gets Superpower... I think we all know how that turns out)

(Frillish not included in Zweilous or Cacturne Calcs as they both have STAB moves that Super Effect it leading to obvious OHKOs)
That's enough for this post!

 

I listed a few in my post above, the pokemon who can lay spikes in NEU are: Pineco, Cacturne, Omanyte, Roselia, Glalie, Whirlipede, Maractus, Dwebble, Shelmet. that's a really significant list and almost none of them are threatened out by hits enough to not be able to get 1 or 2 layers of spikes with no problem.

agreed, i don't think stealth rock is in any way broken or unhealthy for the NEU metagame.

could i get more than that please. i'd like to see some talking about it and evidence/calcs rather than just statements that a thing is broken or not broken.

i agree, but not sure why you're bringing it up, it's not very good really. it's simply too unreliable.

no. that's not how tiers work. we go by usage. i'm not going to ban something for being too low-tiered because if I did NEU wouldn't exist lol most of the tier is more than viable in NU.

if you could please make less blanket statements of "this should be banned" etc that'd be very helpful. give evidence and show your reasoning when arguing a thing should be suspected, like any tier.

-----------------

Re Rampardos: it's something i'm very, very strongly considering to be the next suspect in NEU. as argued earlier, it's not just that little can switch in to it, it's that it can run a variety of sets and has a wide enough movepool alongside that power to make it extremely unpredictable and difficult for any team to reasonably manage. you think it's too slow, but it could be running a scarf set which still destroys half the tier, you think it's too frail but priority is quite rare in NEU and its rock typing allows it to take a lot of really useful hits (like +6 Sitrus Berry Linoone Extremespeed) to be able to continue or begin a sweep.