Guest, PO has ceased our separate tiering and adopted Smogon tiers for SM. More information and updates here.
Discussion in 'Gen 5 Side Metagames' started by Aurist, Jun 20, 2012.
swoobat is fast, can get +4 spatk/def in two turns.
It outspeeds 99% of the tier. too strong.
i think the issue with it is it's too frail, severely weak to scarfed mons and priority from stuff like piloswine. also at +2 unless you've invested fully in its SAtk then you don't actually have very high offenses, and if you've done that swoobat is about twice as beatable. not saying swoobat shouldn't be considered, though.
It sweeps whole teams and then eats their souls. And it blocks most sweepers as you said. I'm really just not too fond of sheer force though. It makes everything like, super buffed up. Tbh, it sweeps, and is almost impossible to stop due to the fact it is a Rock type.
I feel that zangoose needs to be suspected because of its immense power with toxic orb facade and amazing coverage, having fire, fighting, dark, and ice all available to it. I also feel that swoobat needs a ban because, like with zangoose, they both absolutely tear through stall teams. While the standard zangoose probably could be taken out with moderate difficulty, an SD set made to break stall could easily plow through a stall team. A subCM swoobat could also plow through stall, but it is not as bad because it is so frail that walls with physical attacks could probably kill it (like metang for example)
I don't believe Zangoose is suspect worthy. I use him a lot and he tends to be completely unable to get in due to a lack of resistances and pretty poor defensive stats. Coupled with the Toxic Orb damage and Hazards, he dies real fast.
252Atk +2 Toxic Boost Zangoose (+Atk) Fire Punch vs 252HP/252Def Eviolite Light Metal Metang (+Def): 73% - 86% (238 - 280 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. It doesn't kill. At +2. Considering that a lot of Zangoose won't be running Fire Punch especially with SD I think that's an ideal situation for Zangoose that still ends in Metang's favour.
Zangoose also lacks one vital thing for such a sweeper. The ability to outspeed. Unlike Swoobat it doesn't have an astronomical speed stat for no reason, scarfers... Swoobat, Rapidash and a few other things, (not to mention priority like Pilow's Ice Shard). They all take down/severely weaken Zangoose.
Without Swords Dance, (which is hard to pull off considering the aforementioned crappy defences) Metang, Pilowswine, Mandibuzz and probably a few others I'm forgetting can take at least 1 hit and threaten it back, even with their attacks doing around 60% (and with Pilowswine having Ice Shard). It's not so hard to take him down if you pack one of the following:
Swoobat, Rapidash, Electabuzz, Raichu, Dugtrio, Electrode and more. Or pretty much anything with a scarf. Or priority moves (Pilowswine's Ice Shard, Linoone's Espeed, Raticate's Sucker Punch or Quick Attack, opposing Zangoose Quick Attack, Duggy's Sucker Punch).
Something that can sponge a hit and hit back: Pilowswine, Metang, Mandibuzz, quite possibly Cradilly
In summary, Zangoose dies easily and it has few/no opportunities to Swords Dance in 90% of games due to the fact that pretty well everything running an attacking move has at least one move to hit it with, unless you're running something with just a Ghost attack for some reason. It has high damage potential, yeah, but doesn't this tier need that.. I mean.. if we ban everything with an attack stat.. we'll just have games of hazard stacking and shuffling all the time (Which as we all know, works in this tier because we have (pretty much) no spinners).
Sorry if it was disjointed but I'm pretty tired atm
Yeah Zangoose is completely manageable due to the fact that it's paper thin and it doesn't have a way to boost its speed. It can't take advantage of its Ghost immunity to switch in and zero resistances to capitalize on. All that plus the fact that it'll be taking toxic damage and it dies far too quickly, unless it's coming in for a late game sweep. I'd actually say its best set is just 4 attacks; something along the lines of Quick Attack/Facade/Close Combat/Shadow Claw. Not like it has any time to set up SD anyway lol.
Okay,, like Aurist knows I'm playing NEU now for a time thanks to #Tournaments. After some battles you could greatly see how Broken Toxic Boost Zangoose. First off all it gets a free Choice Band, while still retaining the ability to switch moves. That comes above his great 115 bast Attack. 90 speed isn't too bad either. Thanks to toxic it can abuse highly powered STAB Facades, wich even Mandibuzz can't take (and thanks to a unlucky match in NU i know that even Alomomola is 2HKO'ed. There are plenty of Rock types, but Close Combat shut them down, and Rock types are not knowed of their fastness. So yeah, this poke seems pretty broken, but it dies from Toxic damage before his sweep is done, so idk. I think we can give him a suspecting. @Weavilewinz, not every single team has a Metang and 90 speed is still pretty fast, remember this is NEU. And yeah, lol at SD. Dugtrio get Quick Attacked, Electrode and Rapidash too. And it will be pretty high damage.
while Zangoose is very powerful and has a good speed tier for NEU, i've found it to be less than broken so far. it has a lot of immediate power but not quite enough to break through the walls it needs to for a sweep. as well as this it is very frail and is constantly taking residual damage - such that even walls easily 1hko it where Zangoose 2hkos them. it can't really set up SD, ever, and Quick Attack isn't enough to deal with the faster mons (even Dugtrio) and scarfers. it has to choose between beating the Rock types and the Steel + Grass types and the Poison types in its coverage, too, and it's not too difficult to scout for what its coverage is. i'm not saying it's not a really potent threat, but i definitely don't consider it broken right now.
Zangoose is really a top tier threat, but it isn't broken. Many pokemons can survive it's onslaught and even though it's fast, it isn't fast enough.
And what about Close Combat?
Hits Rock and Steel super effective. And STAB Facade does more to Grass types anyways. And Quick Attacks does much damage, after some hazards. But I agree on the SD part, that totally sucks.
because the better wally steel types (Metang, Bronzor, Wormadam-S etc) aren't weak to CC and don't take much from it.
That's why I run Heatmor or Lampent with Zangoose to deal with them, especially the latter, who can absorb fighting moves.
A quick note with regard to the release of Shadow Tag Gothitelle - we're likely to be banning her from NEU soon as she's killing off the metagame. She's currently suspected in NU so it might take as long as they take to get banned here, but I've put in asking for it to be banned when Rampardos is banned.
Such a shame, Frisk Gothitelle is my special wall.
there's still a few good psychic types that can easily specially wall in NEU - Grumpig, Hypno, and Chimecho for example
My thoughts on the NEU metagame:
Rampardos and Gothitelle will have their bans implemented when the main server next goes up.
I'd like to talk more about Spikes, now I'm not sure how to deal with this but Spikes stacking is a serious problem.
Stealth Rocks and T-Spikes are fine, they don't hurt the metagame in any way, but Spikes stacking is very hard to manage since there are very little viable spinners.
The most troublesome stacker is probably Roselia, so let's start with that.
I absolutely agree that Spikes stacking is a big issue in NEU. And I don't think something as simple as banning Roselia would solve the issue - it lays Spikes the easiest, but there's plenty of mons that can lay Spikes nearly as easy: Cacturne, Maractus, Glalie, Dwebble, Shelmet, Omanyte, Whirlipede, a couple more, most of which easily get a number of layers of Spikes thanks to Eviolite giving them the bulk to sit there and take hits (Shelmet in particular being able to do that with reliable recovery) or being offensive enough to force switches (Cacturne, Maractus). I also agree that Stealth Rock and T-Spikes aren't the issue here and are perfectly fine in the meta. It's too easy for a team to set up or nearly set up SR, 2 layers of T-Spikes and 3 layers of Spikes, and then just get an offensive mon like Zangoose out and watch it sweep everything with no problem. The spinners are few and far between, and the ones that are usable at all are awful and take up space in a team just to die and not spin anyway. Spinning simply doesn't happen in NEU.
I'm not entirely sure how to deal with this issue though. It's not an issue of spinblockers - there's like two of them (Frillish and Banette) and the spinners tend to just die before they even encounter them. It's an issue of multiple things - the lack of spinners, the ability for most Spikes mons to get out multiple layers with next to no issues, the fact that most of the tier is pretty spikes weak, etc. Most of the spikes layers are eviolite users; banning eviolite would certainly solve the problem but kill off a large number of viable mons, and limiting it does similar and would just mean that the 1 or 2 eviolite users would be dedicated to hazards - Piloswine + Roselia or something. And banning individual mons simply wouldn't solve the problem - at least 5 pokemon would need to be banned and that's kind of ridiculous. The more I think about it, the more it seems the only way to go is a ban of Spikes.
You're right, banning the move itself seems to be the most logical solution, banning all Spikes Pokemon just seems silly.
I'm not sure how this would be done, though, like is it possible?
Unless people suddenly stop using Wartortle in NU or something I think we're limited to pretty much having to ban Spikes if you think it's so much of an issue :/
Shame we can't just drop some random Spinners in here to balance shit out.
I have used croconaw a lot, and it has taken out at least 50% of teams. (3/6 pokemon).
The set I run is:
>:C (Croconaw) (M) @ Leftovers
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 140 Def / 112 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Ice Fang
At +2 Speed under a sub it takes out most unexpecting teams. Almost perfect type coverage.
Works even better with a rain dancer with damp rock, send it right in after rain dance, to get max boost from waterfall, unless of course threats are out.
I can't remember any extreme threats to Croconaw, but Zangoose sometimes takes care of it. SOMETIMES. That is if Zangoose comes in on the +1 and I'm not subbed, and without rain.
I haven't played NEU much since nobody seems to ladder anymore, that's why i can't think of threats.
Seems to work for me
Following suit with the other tiers, there isn't going to be a usage tier shift until the end of September. The stats just got screwed for too long and a week of stats simply isn't enough to make a usage shift. There may also be a shift at the end of October. It sucks but there's not really any way around this.
Wow, it's been a while since I posted here or POS in general. Anyway, I really do think people should post some more NEU RMTs. Currently, I think I have the only one. They're a great way to spread original/better sets and ideas, and would stake out what people actually use (especially if the tiers are gonna be a month to update.)
Yeah, now that there's an NEU RMT prefix y'all can and should go nuts, it'd be great to see team styles that people have found success in, the tier is still young so it's been pretty random so far.
I thought that I would put my opinion in on the spikes situation now that I have tested it some. Setting up spikes is stupidly easy in NEU, with Pokemon such as Roselia, Shelmet, Cacturne, etc in the picture. Any of these can get a layer or two of spikes up easily, and with a lack of reliable spinners in the tier, the spikes stay for the entirety of the match almost all the time.
That basically sums up my opinion on the matter. It is just too easy to get 3 layers of spikes and SR up, and little to no chance of getting them off the field.
pnerd offered a valid mon to use in Natu, which is true that it can keep hazards off the field. it loses to some common spikers though and isn't too hard to eliminate.
do people think we should suspect spikes? i see no other way around this.
Why? Because they're so darn easy to set up. With SR, it's guaranteed something is going to lose a quarter of it's health upon the battle field, more if it is not a flying type or Leviatator. This makes sweeping FAR too easy.
I remember suggesting this a while back, so I'm glad it's getting taken into consideration. I would definitely support a ban on hazards (or spikes minimum,) as spike stacking is simply too easy with the combination of weak rapid spinners (except maybe tentacool) and the multiple ghost pokemon (esp. Frillish imo) that can spinblock and beat most of those said spinners 1v1.
I support the ban of Spikes, it's just too hard to manage.
Aye, we should sign a petition or something.
personally, im in favor of it. but i just feel that it would be a bit weird to see a spikes clause............
I do not believe that there would be another clause added. The move spikes would just be banned in the tier if we went forward with this, I think.
That's precisely it. There isn't going to be a clause added. Rather, the move shall be banned, similar to Ingrain in Adv.
How about stealth rocks? I don't really see too much of a problem with them. It's mainly spikes.
Just wondering if others feel differently.
Personally, I haven't seen a problem with them, I haven't seen others have a problem with them, and I haven't seen any complaining about them, so in my opinion, we should focus on spikes.
EDIT: That isn't to say it shouldn't be considered. If you have anything to say on the matter, feel free to speak up.
Spikes are probably the only thing broken, T-Spikes or SR aren't that bad.
yeah, SR has never been a problem, it's been the issue of Spikes stacking - if anything SR is mildly beneficial to the meta, keeping strong stuff like Mandibuzz and Golbat more in check.
Tspikes are perfectly manageable, having a poisoned/badly poisoned mon is barely anything.
It seems like this discussion has been a suspecting of Spikes in and of itself but I am not sure it would be a good idea to pass a ban of spikes on this - but also the lack of activity on the NEU ladder makes things move somewhat slowly. Do people think there should be a suspect thread - I mean it's still worth looking at full-on ways to stop spikes stacking teams - or would you rather me and Roku decide to ban the move now?
Suspect thread would probably be the best so we can analyse Spikes more, as more people will be using it during the suspect period.
Separate names with a comma.