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[BW2] New LC Tier

Discussion in 'Gen 5 LC' started by Xdevo, Jul 29, 2012.

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  1. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    With the introduction of all of the new drop downs, LC has been turned on its head. So, with this new change, comes a new thread!

    Current Leaders: Xdevo, Weavilewinz

    Current LC Ubers: Scyther, Sneasel, Yanma, Tangela, Vulpix, Carvanha, Gligar, Meditite

    Items Banned from LC: Berry Juice, DeepSeaTooth

    Moves Banned from LC: SonicBoom, Dragon Rage

    Abilities banned from LC: Moody

    Current Suspects and Retests: Scraggy, Murkrow, Misdreavus, and Drilbur

    Discuss the metagame development here, any new sets or strategies, and anything comments about any suspects or wanted re-tests. Make sure to include useful calculations and other important information.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 17, 2012
  2. viamage

    viamage That one guy

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    I couldn't help but chuckle at that. Love the formatting of this post, vastly superior to the old one. I really hope when we finish we don't settle on the same tier as smogon though. and are we ever going to do test bans based of usage?

    p.s. are we ever going to send any of the old stuff tho the wastelands?
     
  3. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    I do not give any cares about how close our metagame ends up to smogon's. They are a completely different community with different values. The similarities of the metagames are not a bad thing, but just a coincidence.

    I'm not going to ban things off of usage ever. If something is broken, then it is broken, no matter the usage. If something were to be deemed detrimental to the metagame (see Roserade and Sand in UU), then it would tested banned, but not until after the current re-tests are taken care of.



    Naw, too much effort.
     
  4. SockPuppet

    SockPuppet lmao

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    Drilbur is being retested first, right? If I recall, Gl4ss said that they are all going to be banned again and retested one at a time?
     
  5. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    No, due to the server crashing if when tiers are changed we are just going to unban them all now (since they were already unbanned), then reban as needed.

    The first ones to be suspected are probably going to be gligar and Meditite.
     
  6. SockPuppet

    SockPuppet lmao

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    Alright. That's probably a good choice, too. Gligar is a huge hassle to me, though Meditite is debatable.
     
  7. Dasdardly

    Dasdardly Uknown Bird

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    I just played a match with Misdreavus on the ladder.
     
  8. SockPuppet

    SockPuppet lmao

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  9. viamage

    viamage That one guy

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    Thank you for answering my questions.
    They should be unbanned all at once because they act as counters to each other, ergo need to be used together
     
  10. Wobbyble

    Wobbyble Member

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    I can't deny that it will be interesting to see how the metagame changes, but I've played Smogon's LC before, and I feel like it's mostly centered around eliminating/weakening checks/counters and then setting up your sweeper and hoping for some kills.

    I'll give LC a shot after I finish my summer course finals, hopefully I'll find it somewhat to my tastes.
     
  11. Luck>Skill

    Luck>Skill Well-Known Member

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    Isn't that how the game works???

    Played some matches, ladder is super dead but yeah...Gligar is the only one that seems broken to me so far

    Scrafty can get rvenged easily or be checked by a bunch of phys def walls

    Meditite fits the metagame perfectly as of now at least IMO, not being broken and checking a bunch of top threats quite well, same goes for Misdreavus.

    No idea abou Drillbur or Murkrow, since I have faced none and I am not using them
     
  12. Wobbyble

    Wobbyble Member

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    No it was not. LC without the unbans well... Like none the top players used set up sweepers at all. Yeah you might be able to sweep with a scarfed poke or something after you get rid of the walls, but boosting sets were rarely used. Only recently one that was commonly used was Swords Dance Sandshrew on SS teams. You might see an occassional Shell Smasher but for the most part set up sweepers were not used. Missy, Murk, Scraggy, Gligar, and Drilbur are all set up sweepers, hence the point I was trying to make about how the metagame is going to change.

    Scrafty is really only checked by scarfed flying types, Gligar, and max def Mienfoo. Yep not much else.
     
  13. Luck>Skill

    Luck>Skill Well-Known Member

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    I mean, it's how Pokemon works most of the time with offensive teams: you remove your sweepers' checks / counters then sweep

    How is Gligar checking Scrafty when most of them run Ice Punch???
     
  14. Wobbyble

    Wobbyble Member

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    No one used offensive teams lol. Most were defensive stall with maybe one or two sweepers. Maybe I phrased my statement wrong. LC is going from stall and defensive based to offensive based. I think that's what I meant to say. Cause there was rarely any sweeping going on in LC before. Most of the kills you got were from your opponent using sacrifice fodder of the sort and forcing+predicting switches and stay ins. Matches would often go 20+ turns with 6-6 on both sides, that probably won't happen anymore.

    And my bad, when I played with Scraggy, Gligar was banned, I forgot that Scraggy got Ice Pawnch.
     
  15. Trak

    Trak Member

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    scraggy is checked by decently bulky fighting types(read: can take +1 drain punch) and flying types under the same requirements, however note they must be able to OHKO cause nothing can really take 2 boosted hits unless its resisted or the set up sweeper sucks. Scarf them if you want a more offensive counter or get a sandshrew/drillbur in sand. At +1 scraggy is pretty manageable, let it get to +2 and you deserve to die.

    I say meditite is over hyped, it can OHKO half my team yet i have never had troubles with it, i used it and found it underwhelming to a degree.

    What i want to see is a Weather Ability+Speed Boosting Ability for that weather. Not being able to revenge kill a pokemon via speed and needing to play stupidly cautious with your physical walls can get annoying. I mean vulpix was banned cause chlorophyll was taking over, and rush is just a sand based variant if no one noticed...

    Wobby is right, LC is going to get alot more offensive, the closest thing to a dedicated offensive pokemon before was a scarfed snover and sandshrew, everything else was something bulky with a hit and run, a pivot or a wall, none of the top players used DD or anything.

    Right now im using a Missy+Murkrow core which is working for me, albeit nothing close to standard, it's been working for me in checking things like meditite, gligar and drillbur along with slowpoke.

    How about people take note of this part of XDevos Post; any new sets or strategies

    Im getting bored of everyone saying whats broken, lets discuss how we use and counter it as LC players.
     
  16. "Bad To The Bone" Balla

    "Bad To The Bone" Balla so B.A.D.

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    when changes happen, the metagame changes and moves to suit it. imo a metagame where many playstyles are viable is a good metagame. The fact that everyone used stall is a good reason to unban pokes anyways.
     
  17. viamage

    viamage That one guy

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    I will admit, my stall strategies are not half as viable as they had hitherto have been, but pure offense isn't the key either. I have a bulky Misdrevious/Scraggy core that can take punishment like champs, and as always Having Slowpoke Helps out. So while i no longer stall like I've grown accustomed to, HO doesn't get you anywhere.
    Although i haven't personally used it there's a Dbond Missy set that is guarenteed 2 kills. shadowball/WoW/hp Fight/Dbond. This set is perfect for getting the kill and slapping the guy that comes into revenge kill.
     
  18. Wobbyble

    Wobbyble Member

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    The defensive cores were what I loved about Little Cup though. The pure defensive playstyle of the tier led to so much more "skill" needed than any other tier. You had to double switch a lot, make risky stay ins, and predict far more than any other tier imo. All of the OU LC pokes were extremely balanced, with the exception of Mienfoo. No pokes shined brighter than any of the other ones. But w/e, that's over, no use discussing it anymore I guess.

    Gastly has been able to run that exact set for a long time, it's nothing new. The thing that got Missy banned was the fact that it can boost stats, unlike Gastly.
     
  19. viamage

    viamage That one guy

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    I agree with you entirely but just don't know how to respond.

    And the thing that seperates missy from gastly isn't just boosting, but bulk
     
  20. SockPuppet

    SockPuppet lmao

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    Speaking of Missy, I find that both of your points about it are what got it banned in the first place. It's extremely viable bulky sets and even the bulk without the investments along with its boosting moves are extremely devastating to the metagame and while I love it, it's not difficult to figure out why it was banished.
     
  21. KarkatVantas612

    KarkatVantas612 New Member

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    I threw together a team of suspects together in 5 minutes and got to rank 10 in an hour without losing. This meta is a little bit unbalanced. Also, why did carvahna not get unbanned whereas things like meditite and Gligar did?
     
  22. Dasdardly

    Dasdardly Uknown Bird

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    That's nice and all; but you should say what you think is broken and such :x.

    As for me, I think Gligar needs to go! Sand Veil hax + great boosting + recovery + amazing stats + nearly-perfect-coverage STABS is like... A lot to deal with. I'd also support a Sand Rush ban, though that's probably just the weak player in me speaking~. I haven't noticed a lot from Missy/Krow/Meditite yet though, so I don't have an opinion on them yet ;).
     
  23. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    yeah I must say of all the unbanned pokemon, Gligar seems to stand out really exceedingly as broken. Its insane stats make it faster than most, more powerful than pretty much anything, and bulkier than most - a Swords Dance set is pretty much guaranteed to get a sweep in any game, the only thing that can really slow it down is Bronzor and then if it's Immunity with Roost (and why wouldn't it be?) then Bronzor can do literally nothing back anyway. Or Sand Veil just to make it even harder to beat the thing. I speak as an inexperienced player in the tier, but a lot of experienced players have also been saying the same.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2012
  24. Fosco

    Fosco .dancin

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    Scrafty is countered by Shelmet and...? Don't even say Bronzor or Shellder. Bulky Meditite counters it but I think that thing is broken, having a big power and a vaste movepool it can't be countered. Also I have to put Bronzor on every single team to check things like Gligar Drilbur and Murkrow, and only if this last one lacks Heat Wave. This mg is not really healthy imo.
     
  25. Wobbyble

    Wobbyble Member

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    This post. Although scrafty is countered by bulky mien foo
    I played the tier today it it literally requires almost no skill anymore. Scrafty is the easiest to deal with of the new detests but even then he still shines brightly against the other LC pokes.

    meditite is self explanatory for a ban. Can reach 22 speed with adamant scarf, and 28 att. That's more attack than a jolly banded ponyta. And it's not frail either, can get 20 13 12 defenses, has a good movepool and ohkos almost everything that isnt a dedicated physical wall with proper prediction and 2hkos anything that is anyway. It's like the terrakion of little cup. But much stronger.

    Murkrow has amazing offensive stats and can run a wide variety of sets, making it extremely difficult to properly counter or check. The mixed set can 2hko the entire meta except for like nosepass or something. it also makes duduo, tailow, and rufflet extremely outclassed unless you absolutely need u turn. There's not much that outspeeds scarfs aside, and even if they are scarfed sucker punch will probably snag a ohko with rocks up. It's not that it's impossibly to check or counter, it pretty much just outclasses too many Pokemon, making them obsolete.

    Drilbur is alright. It's just like sandshrew more or less, with a bit more Att, bit more spd, bit more speed, and a lot less defense. Sometimes sand shrew will outclass drilbur, sometimes the other way around. Either way, if sand is up, not much counters or checks it other than Bronzor and gligar. The latter of which should be banned IMO. Scarfed snover doesn't like switching in on rock slides at all, and is ohko by lo variant, and eviolite snover doesn't do much better. Too fast and powerful, and creates more weather wars, which is never healthy for a meta IMO. It makes it too dependent on countering other teams than needed

    Missy has the highest BST out of all the LC pokes. It outspeeds all sucker punchers, so checking it with sucker punch becomes a risky mind game that you won't always win. It is also able to run many diverse sets, which makes it even more difficult to check. Almost nothing ohkos it, and it outspeeds and speed ties just about the entire meta. It can cripple with wow, stab you with shadow ball, mystery hp your checks, maybe with ground, destiny bond, sub to avoid status, boot, ps, etc. too diverse with a good movepool and best stats in LC to be allowed to rein free.

    I can learn to deal with the retests, but I think they simply outclass everything else by far too much. They centralize too much of the meta around them. They were banned for reasons, and I think they should be.

    In the plus side, the learning curve is probably a lot less steep. Very easy to use scaf meditite and brave bird on Murkrow. As well as dance scrafty etc. it's not to hard to figure out when to send them out for maximum easy sweeping
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2012
  26. WikeMON

    WikeMON Member

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    Gligar in the Sand is incredibly broken. As is Drillbur with a base attack of 85 and a base speed of 68. In Sand it outspeeds every pokemon in the LC tier ( I think, maybe not Scarfed Abra)
     
  27. Wobbyble

    Wobbyble Member

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    It an hit 34 speed, which is more than scarf diglet and voltorb. But that's irrelevant since you really only need 26 spe to outspeed just about all scarves.
     
  28. WikeMON

    WikeMON Member

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    Exactly. So if Drillbur is banned, Gligar should too being the best Drillbur check.
     
  29. SockPuppet

    SockPuppet lmao

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    I completely agree with Drilbur and Gligar being broken, especially in Sand. Not even things like Frillish or Staryu can do anything against it when Drilbur gets a Sand Rush + SD boost. :x
     
  30. WikeMON

    WikeMON Member

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    Actually I think I've found a check for both. Cloud Nine Psyduck (Scarfed), negates all weather effects and outspeeds both pokemon. Ice Beam OHKO'S Gligar and Hydro Pump OHKO's Drillbur. I actually started using it and have found it surprisingly good.
     
  31. Trak

    Trak Member

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    missy isnt broken in my eyes, it lacks the power to sweep without boosts, gastly is better in this aspect and the dual stab part, only reason gaslty isnt as good now is 18 rather than 19 speed.
    Personally my only issue with gligar is sand veil, otherwise im completely fine with it, i dont mind meditite either. Drillbur is annoying, without SD it lacks the sweeping power, with SD it lacks coverage on grass types/missy or whatever.

    Also, if no one has thought about it koffing is a great check to drillbur, better so than gligar since drillbur can actualy bybass gligar with HP ice really well. Koffing removes boosts, burns and walls drillbur.

    Personally i dont like sand rush, i find it manageable but it takes an element of skill out of LC, you cant revenge kill by speed except psyduck or swablu with a scarf. Its why sun got banned i believe, why not ban the drizzle+swift swim combos except with sand rush and chlorophyll
     
  32. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    I think the best Drilbur check is Bronzor and I agree Gligar is broken it's fast, bulky, strong, and Acrobatics + Earthquake can hit almost anything, but Bronzor.

    Misdreavus not really a threat to me due to what Trak said and personal experience.

    Scraggy can be stopped by Timburr, Shelmet, Mienfoo, Croagunks, (Only if Scraggy isn't running Zen Headbutt), and many more. It will sweep you if you don't have checks for it other then that you should be fine.

    Murkrow is very diverse, but is not broken. You say calm mind + feather dance I say toxic and something to absorb dark pulse. You say sub + roost I say Shellder with Icicle Spear or Bronzor, etc, etc. Murkrow lacks boosting moves, so don't be scared of it setting up. Those are the only two main sets I've seen here and they can be checked. If you're talking about a mix set it lacks the ability to recover it's health so priority can damage a lot it if your running LO, if your running eviolite then you lack power and won't be able to 2HKO as much as LO. Porygon can tank BB and just T-wave it and Recover stall.

    Meditite I have no opinion over that.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2012
  33. Hawkstar

    Hawkstar Racing on the thunder

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    Currently I think that only Meditite and Gligar are broken. Gligar is the elephant in the room, boasting 19 Speed, a large Attack stat, a huge Defense stat, and even a decent Special Defense stat if you are running Eviolite. The last straw was in a battle today where Gligar lived through a Chinchou Hydro Pump. How can something whose low Special Defense stat is supposed to be its "weakness" live through a high-powered move like that? Sure, Ice-types can beat it, but unless it's running a Scarf your Ice-type is eating Stone Edge. It can reach a higher Attack stat with no boosting items at all than Choice Band Mienfoo, which isn't used often anyway but is still an excellent example. This frees up an item slot for Eviolite, or possibly a Choice item of its own. It's hard to tell how bad it is with Gligar still in the tier but I guarantee that once Gligar is gone, Meditite is going to get a hell of a lot more threatening. Misdreavus is here to switch into Hi Jump Kick, but besides that, there is nothing. Frillish and Slowpoke are weak to ThunderPunch, Gastly and Duskull are majorly outclassed, Litwick is lol, and forget about any other non-Ghost-type, because they are getting vaporized.

    The other suspects are fine to me. Drilbur has some very solid switch-ins in Misdreavus and Bronzor, as well as minding priority a lot. Murkrow is pretty frail even with Eviolite, and while it has a ton of diversity and awesome priority, it is weak to pretty much every Scarf user in existence, as well as enemy priority. Misdreavus isn't actually as bulky as it seems, and while it does have Will-o-Wisp to help it out, its two prime targets, Murkrow and Scraggy, have ways to avoid it and strike back hard. Scraggy is a pretty big threat, and while I feel it is close, it isn't broken. Its Dark-typing both powers it up and holds it back, as it has to choose between beating Murkrow and other Flying-types with Ice Punch, or beating Fighting-types with Zen Headbutt.
     
  34. Wobbyble

    Wobbyble Member

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    Typically chinchou hits 16 Spa max and its surf doesn't even do 90 percent on hippo, so its not surprising hydro can't ohko gligar especially if they invest in spd
    Koffing doesn't check drilbur as wow can miss, and rock slide can flinch, so Koffing has something like less than 70 percent chance to beat drilbur

    Either way, gligar and drilbur (maybe sandshrew, it's just as big of a threat as drilbur) are the ones I want to see gone. Weather wars are really hurting the diversity of this meta game that once existed, but now I need 1-2 pokes per team to check/counter sand threats
     
  35. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    236 +2 Atk Drilbur (+Atk) Rock Slide vs 196 HP/ 236 Def Eviolite Koffing (+Def) : 30.43% - 39.13%
    3-4 hits to KO

    Koffing gets Clear Smog. You have plenty of chances for that WoW to hit even if you, for some reason or another, don't pack Clear Smog. If Koffing isn't a counter it's a very good check.
     
  36. viamage

    viamage That one guy

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    I've actually been thinking about this for a long time, a koffing+vullaby core is extremly uu but is really powerful, they have what it takes to shred virtually any sand team apart.
     
  37. hovercraft

    hovercraft New Member

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    What are the general rules for LC? I have never played it before, but am curious.
     
  38. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Well, it's nearly the same for any other tier or metagame, but the defining features are that every pokemon is level 5 and they are the first stage of an evolutionary line. For example, you can use Timbur, but not Gurdurr or Conkeldurr. You can use Koffing, but not Weezing. Otherwise all standard clauses apply.
     
  39. viamage

    viamage That one guy

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    I would also sumbit that just because it's a threat in higher tiers doesn't mean it's preevolution is going to be a threat in lc
     
  40. SockPuppet

    SockPuppet lmao

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    That's not a general rule of the tier.
     
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