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[BW2] Kyurem-W in Monotype

Discussion in 'Gen 5 Side Metagames' started by Tesla Elesa, Aug 6, 2012.

  1. Tesla Elesa

    Tesla Elesa Almost Quality

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    I'm not sure if this was a bug or a conscious decision, but I'm putting it here.

    This thing is broken beyond belief, and makes mono-Ice nigh on impossible to defeat. It has everything; a godly base 170 special attack, amazing bulk, and a pretty great typing (for monotype anyways). STAB 100% blizzard destroys pretty much 1-2HKOes every pokemon in the tier, and it is extremely hard to revenge kill because of its defensive stats. And since this is monotype, you can't just throw in Chansey or some other special wall into every team. The only possible real weakness it has is stealth rock, and even if that limits its switch in opportunities, it still can wreck entire teams when it switches in.

    Kyurem-W needs to be banned ASAP.

    EDIT: Heyheyhey featured.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2012
  2. Ryan11

    Ryan11 Banned

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    It doesn't really matter I have ran #1 in Monotype and it can easily be delt with priority of a faster scarfed poke like Terrakion, Keldeo, Breloom, Scizor, Victini, even other Kyrum Ws, and really almost alot of faster pokes it's not the fastest thing in the world sash Alkazam and even Deoxys S etc.
     
  3. Crystal Moogle

    Crystal Moogle Ayaya~

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    Not a simulator bug, so moved to here.
     
  4. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    It's all pretty long so I'll stick it in one big Secret Tag.
    [secret][​IMG]
    Stats:
    HP: 125
    Attack: 120
    Defense: 90
    Sp. Atk: 170
    Sp. Def: 100
    Speed: 95
    Total: 700

    Potential sets: (If mentioned in the context of an Ice team, perma-hail will be assumed present)

    Specs:
    Kyurem (Kyurem-W) @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Turboblaze
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Blizzard
    - Draco Meteor
    - Focus Blast / Earth Power
    - Earth Power / Fusion Flare (100 accuracy special fire move never hurt)

    723 special attack with specs... 723. That's pretty damn big. In fact as I'm sure you know, Deoxys-A aside, it's the biggest. How big is it in relative terms
    [secret]- 252SpAtk Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem White (+SAtk) Draco Meteor in Sandstorm vs 4HP/0SpDef Leftovers Tyranitar (Neutral): 89% - 106% (307 - 363 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 37% chance to OHKO.
    - 252SpAtk Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem White (+SAtk) Draco Meteor in Sandstorm vs 252HP/0SpDef Leftovers Tyranitar (Neutral): 75% - 89% (307 - 363 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    - 252SpAtk Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem White (+SAtk) Blizzard vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Ferrothorn (+SpDef): 72% - 86% (256 - 303 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    - 252SpAtk Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem White (+SAtk) Earth Power vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Ferrothorn (+SpDef): 36% - 43% (129 - 152 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

    -252SpAtk Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem White (+SAtk) Draco Meteor vs 4HP/0SpDef Leftovers Scizor (Neutral): 97% - 115% (276 - 326 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 88% chance to OHKO.
    - 252SpAtk Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem White (+SAtk) Draco Meteor vs 252HP/0SpDef Leftovers Scizor (Neutral): 80% - 94% (276 - 326 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    - 252SpAtk Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem White (+SAtk) Draco Meteor vs 252HP/0SpDef Leftovers Heatran (Neutral): 56% - 66% (219 - 258 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    - 252SpAtk Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem White (+SAtk) Draco Meteor vs 4HP/0SpDef Leftovers Heatran (Neutral): 67% - 79% (219 - 258 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    - 252SpAtk Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem White (+SAtk) Focus Blast vs 252HP/0SpDef Leftovers Blissey (Neutral): 57% - 67% (408 - 480 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.[/secret]

    Choice Scarf:
    Set is as above, but with a Scarf instead of Specs

    Ok it's not 723 anymore it's 482 (Modest) or 439 (Timid). While lacking the raw power of the Specs, as with all scarf sets, it's traded off to outspeed pretty much everything that's not also scarfed, and with base 95 most scarfed things too. Reaching 433 (Neutral Nature), 475 (Boosting nature).
    Neutral Nature will outspeed essentially everything up to and including Accelgor. While the only thing Timid will edge +0 Ninjask and +Nature base 90 Scarfers and ofc outspeed other neutral base 95 scarfers.

    Life Orb:
    Same set as above once again with Life Orb replacing Scarf.

    This set has the much loved ability to switch attacks. Therefore most of its checks have to be pretty fearful as Kyurem can easily run an attack to KO each one of, Scizor, Heatran, Tyranitar, Ferrothorn that I mentioned before and aside from Scizor and Scarfed Ttar or Heatran all can be out-sped and KO'd before having the ability to do anything in response. A Blissey or Chansey can PP stall Focus Blast with Softboiled or Wish providing it isn't frozen by Blizzard first or that Kyurem doesn't get lucky with crits or Special Defense drops.

    Weaknesses:
    It's pretty vulnerable to hazards being Super Effected by Stealth Rocks and lacking a Spikes immunity, this is compounded by the fact that the only Ice types that learn Rapid Spin are Cryogonal, Cloyster and Delibird and there are 0 Dragon-type spinners.
    Although its defensive spread of 125/90/100 isn't exactly bad it does have weaknesses to quite a few inconvenient things. It is weak to; Steel, Rock, Fighting and Dragon-type attacks. This makes it vulnerable to Scizor's Bullet Punch, any random Mach Punch and the large number of other random fighting moves around, Stealth Rocks and the ever-common Rock Slide/Stone Edge coverage move and finally the dragon type weakness leaves it with a hole for the Lati twins, Mence and even Haxorus to pick at with their superior speed (should Kyurem lack a Scarf).[/secret]
    Well that's what he can do. Since the OP was a bit lacking in... well that. I thought I might put it in.
     
  5. Tesla Elesa

    Tesla Elesa Almost Quality

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    Thanks for delineating.

    Kyurem-W just outpowers the rest of Monotype, which consists of regular OU and UU mons. Doesn't help that the other weathers are all banned in Monotype as well, meaning perma-Hail is always permanent.
     
  6. T-Dogg

    T-Dogg Member

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    First of all I'd like to apologise about this taking so long.

    Nothing except negative things have been said about Kyurem-W in Monotype. Therefore, it will be banned the next time the tiers are updated. If anybody has arguments for keeping it in Monotype, please post those arguments in this thread ASAP.
    As for Kyurem-B, I have heard fewer complaints so a seperate suspect thread will be opened regarding that.

    Try finding counters, checks, and threats. Try to give an estimate of its power, and what it does very well. Don't just say "it's extremely broken" or "it's not broken at all" without good reasoning.

    Then say your opinion on its tiering. Everyone's argument will be taken into consideration, but remember to back up your arguments with experience, not theory.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2012
  7. Xclus|Mewmewzapdos

    Xclus|Mewmewzapdos Retreated to Showdown ^^

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    It is not broken as many might thought, the most common monofighting beats it to his knees, if it is a monoice team, get rocks up and then you can just sweep with terrakion stone edge, and it is gg, nothing in ice can counter terrakion. ScarfJollyChomp is a solid check to it, as it outspeeds and ohko with outrage, and dont forget the famous special defensive haxachi, it can come in after a team-mate death and then iron head to death. Scarfrachi is also an counter to scarf sets, take anything it throws at it and iron head till it faint. Also, yes, speces set is very destructive but many thing outspeed it when it is modest and can revenge it. If Kyurem-W is banned, then why haxorus isn't? It have sky high attack, throws in a band and literally no priority move can ohko it while scizor's bullet punch can actually ko kyurem-w after rocks. So, therefore i believe it isnt broken, and can be played around with.
     
  8. Firer

    Firer Owner

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    It maybe be a bit overcentralizing, but that goes over as its typing doesnt rly help it. Dragon has way to many restrictions and Ice is just a weak monotype, being the worsest defensive type in the game. Nearly every mon is SR weak, they get raped by the VERY common fighting and are weak the the most common priority types. The fact that you need to run Ice to run kyu-w is a huge disadvantage, even tho the poke itself is broken for OU. Imo we should wait a bit and look if the trend goes back and then decide if we ban it. Kyu-b is ok i would say, cause it isnt worth running ice (or dragon) for it. You would be prolly better just running fighting then or something...

    also for "why isnt haxorus banned". dragon rly sucks with all the restricions... the secondary ice type makes kyu-w "so powerful" tho it would be prolly better with fighting and co. as secondary but w/e... thats theorymoaning.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2012
  9. ColdBlizzard

    ColdBlizzard New Member

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    I agree. Kyurem-W is not that overpowered.
    And people mostly use modest nature,so even scarf Heracross can revenge kill it even scarf.
     
  10. KennedyXOXO

    KennedyXOXO Spriter

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    Well, while it certainly is strong, the SR weakness and the non-Spikes immunity really hurts this guy. Prio can easily shut it down, so no. Kyurem-W is not OP'd.
     
  11. Brood

    Brood New Member

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    I am indifferent with kyurem-W's standing on ice teams; however, I believe removing kyurem-W would be a huge and unnecessary nerf to dragon. Dragon teams naturally only have two type disadvantages in monotype, ice and steel. Against ice teams, having a dragon that isn't weak to ice, doesn't take hail damage, AND has a 100 BP fire move is necessary to have any hope of winning; not to mention kyurem-w is one of the best dragons for dealing with cloyster (timid Kyurem-W can 1hko it with fusion flare).
    Without kyurem-w, steel becomes a nightmare matchup for dragon because dragon would have to rely on fire/ground moves to win, and steel has heatran + skarmory to counter that. Kyurem-W's turboblaze fusion flare gives dragon a fighting chance against steel.
    If it is possible, I would suggest kyurem-W being banned from ice teams only. Dragon has to use one of its 2 out of 5 restriction slots for kyurem-W anyways, and kyurem-W on an ice team is quite a bit more OP, seeing how it can spam blizzard rather than ice beam. Also, ice teams have access to rapid spinners to remove stealth rock, which is a plague to kyurem-W, while dragon teams do not have that luxury.

    Something tells me you don't even play monotype.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 16, 2012
  12. MOOTOO

    MOOTOO New Member

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    with a strong Priority user and Rocks up, it can be dealt with, i myself don't believe it's OP
     
  13. FireyVoid

    FireyVoid New Member

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    Brood is right, banning Kyurem-W would take such a heavy toll on dragon monos. Kyurem is absolutely necessary for dragon as the best special attacker dragon can get. Banning Kyurem-W would take away what makes dragon a viable type.
     
  14. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    I believe that Kyurem-W is broken on hail teams as brood said. Kyurem-W simply has a massive special attack stat paired with amazing coverage moves and the ability turboblaze. Nothing is a guaranteed safe switch in. Kyurem-W seems to be relatively manageable on monodragon due to less residual damage and no 100% accurate blizzards. I do not think that it needs to be kept on monodragon as there are other ways to deal with monoice and monosteel. I believe that the problem lies in the fact that anything that outspeeds isn't powerful enough to OHKO, while almost everything that underspeeds (and is powerful enough to OHKO) is a 1-2HKO with Blizzard (or whatever coverage move is used). So unless you pack supereffective priority, which not every team has access to that, there's no way to effectively deal with kyurem-w.
    Other weathers in monotype are extremely uncommon (as far as I've seen), so hail is guaranteed to be up for the whole match.
     
  15. 1Turnip

    1Turnip Distracted often by cats

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    Even though I use monodragon, I'd love to see Kyurem-W gone. Way before BW2 I used monodragon and it worked just fine with regular Kyurem. Even now, I switched back to regular Kyurem because I felt wrong abusing Kyurem-W. Even though there's plenty that can handle Kyurem-W on monofighting teams, it is too much for other monotypes like water, electric and flying (from my experiences). I used the sub 3 attacks set, and after setting up a sub on most defensive pokemon (or predicted status), Kyurem-W was incredibly hard to take down. My opponent would have a hard time finding a safe switch in because STAB dragon pulse or ice beam does a large amount, even to those that resist it (and then I could just use earth power if it was steel). That usually lead to my opponent sacrificing something to break the sub (and with the appropriate move I could KO those faster offensive pokes). Anyways, from what I've seen, I think it'd be much better seeing Kyurem-W out of monotype.
     
  16. KennedyXOXO

    KennedyXOXO Spriter

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    wtf? ice is obviously was not as good as dragon before kyurem w came along, and thats why dragon has restrictions. before kyurem w came along, ice may have been the worse mono.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2012
  17. Shawnoo755

    Shawnoo755 Member

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    Who the fuck thought that Bringing Kyurem in Monotype was a Good idea? God dammit. This thing has the best stats next to Arceus. 170 Sp attack, and a GREAT Hp Stats. It has a RIDICULOUS Movepool too. Fusion Flare/BLizzard/Earth power/Dragon pulse/ Draco meteor/ Ice Beam. It is Very Versatile. Sub 3 attack, Scarf, SPECS: Which destroys everything. I mean, Fking Blaziken is banned, Why The hell would you bring another Treat like that to Monotype? Rocks isint enough to counter the huge Hole it puts in teams, My god. It even has Mold Breaker ( Sortoff). It is Common sense to just ban the things. At least, if you want to use it in monotype, Make a Monotype Ubers Tier. That is my suggestion, Cause in normal monotype, it is Broken as all hell. And NO monofighting isint Evevrything, It just going to make mono fight even more popular, and Dull the meta. No thanks
     
  18. T-Dogg

    T-Dogg Member

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    An announcement. Kyurem-W is being suspected because of its role on a mono-ice team. If it gets banned it will also be banned from mono-dragon. The fact that it may underpower mono-dragon isn't important if banning it will mean mono-ice isn't overpowered.

    If the ban does go through and mono-dragon is significantly underpowered, then we can look at lifting some of the restrictions. But that is a discussion for another day.

    Will make more replies to other posts in this thread later.
     
  19. Firer

    Firer Owner

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    I do actually... Also even with kyurem they need to rely on fire on ground moves to beat steal... Heatran can take a fusion flare very well... of the pokes you listed dd mence easily sweeps through them as it ohkos skarm and tran... It can also take a band bullet punch and outspeeds and ohkos genesect at +1. Dragon has so many good coverage moves they dont necessarily need a dragon weak to steel stab to deal with them. There isnt any steel able to switch freely in on hydreigon anywhay... ChainChomp is good. Against Ice I admit it will be a huge help as its together with kingdra the only ou dragon not weak to ice, but if Kyurem-W gets indeed banned then Ice will be way less common anywhay...
     
  20. Doctor_downes

    Doctor_downes New Member

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    I don't think so

    I ran scarfed and specs kyurem in my ice monotype, It gets pretty much destroyed by scarf terrakion, stealth rocks, focus sash, Mono-bug and fire also can destroy it easily.

    In hindsight, Scizor and Terrakion demolishes it.
     
  21. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    I would like to point out that many of the "counters" people are listing cannot safely switch on Kyurem-W as they are OHKO'd by its coverage moves. Also, just because a few monotypes can carry counters doesn't mean they all can. As with many banned pokemon, counters for them did exist, but they were scarce and every team would start to look the same (not to mention they were possibly taken down by some variant set). In fact, due to it being monotype, not every team even has access to at least one of those counters.
     
  22. Brood

    Brood New Member

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    That response is incomprehensible and ambiguous; by "the worse" I am not sure whether you mean "worst type" or just "worse than dragon."
     
  23. KennedyXOXO

    KennedyXOXO Spriter

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    lol sure you dont. worse monotype, of course.
     
  24. Bamarah

    Bamarah "Baton Pass Elite"

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    I have been calling for this ban for quite awhile now so I'm glad that other people feel the same way as I do. But I have already given my reply on another thread:

    My Reply[/HIDE]


    So yeah, no Uber Pokémon should ever be allowed in any tier that isn't Ubers!
     
  25. Brood

    Brood New Member

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    Don't blame me when your grammar is poor and your posts end up being unclear or ambiguous.

    That isn't why dragon has restrictions.

    Aside from that, ice was good before kyurem-B. Regular Kyurem is still good, and ice can do quite a few other things like snow cloak abuse or ice body stalling. Not to mention, the ability to accurately use blizzard with no drawbacks is pretty powerful itself.
     
  26. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Although there are Pokemon that can reliably revenge kill Kyurem-W, nothing can switch into it because of its sky high special attack (only 10 points off Deoxys-A) and its movepool which lets it hit everything for at least neutral damage. It's a lot like Rayquaza in that respect, in that you can only really counter it by revenge killing. And Rayquaza was banned. Ban Kyurem-W. It's a no-brainer. Its special attack is higher than Mewtwo's, and unlike its other forme it has the moves to abuse that stat. If it had an ability that crippled it, maybe. But it doesn't: Turboblaze only helps it out.
     
  27. User Name

    User Name Life is a maze

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    I dunno if it's because I prefer hyper-offense teams, but I find "nothing being able to switchin" usually isn't a problem since once you get the revenge killer in, that revenge killer can often go on a sweep due to Monotype being...well, 1 type per team.
    That being said, Kyurem-W has been amazing in what I've used, only having trouble against MonoFightings due to Mach Punch and at one point MonoSteel because I forgot Flash Fire is neutralized by Turboblaze.
    It's certainly worth banning, though I'd like it if we banned it due to actually testing it and trying to figure out ways to adapt and then not finding any, instead of just going ONESEVENTY BASE SPECIAL ATTACK WITH BLIZZARD AND DRAGONS BANBAN.

    It helps that MonoIces are actually far better than I expected (to clarify, although I didn't think it sucked, I didn't think it would be THIS good). Half the time I didn't even need to bring Kyurem out because the other members could handle the opposing team on their own. When I did call the guy out, though, it tended to destroy things; to use a type that has a neutral type matchup with Ice rather than the Ice-weak teams I also faced, Kyurem-W managed to wipe out a MonoPoison team pretty much by Blizzard alone.
    I don't know how MonoGround, MonoDragon,MonoGrass, and MonoFlying will fare against MonoIce even without Kyurem-W in the picture (and so far I've battled everything but MonoGrass). After all, they all have very few Ice resists anyways, with most members being hit super-effectively. With Kyurem-W around, though, they're extremely limited in what they can do against the guy.
     
  28. T-Dogg

    T-Dogg Member

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    What do you mean by this?
    Do you mean we should unban it as a test before declaring it broken? Because that's what already happened and hence why this thread exists.
    Do you mean we should "Try finding counters, checks, and threats. Try to give an estimate of its power, and what it does very well. Don't just say "it's extremely broken" or "it's not broken at all" without good reasoning."? Because that's what this thread is for.
     
  29. User Name

    User Name Life is a maze

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    @T-Dogg
    The latter.
    Yes, that may be what this thread is for, but as you probably know by experience it's not what people always use the thread for ;P
     
  30. #PR0|-MMM-

    #PR0|-MMM- Back to abuse Brokengoth

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    #PR0|-MMM-
    I once heard Monotype is supposed to be a tier in which every matchup can be beaten, no matter how hard it is. Kyurem-W makes certain matchups straight out impossible to win, like Grass, for instance. Even CB Techniloom (Noone runs CB anyway...) Mach Punch misses out on the OHKO sometimes and unless you run something stupid like scarfed Celebi, Kyurem-W can't be killed. And Flying? Nothing can tank a Blizzard, except maybe max HP/SpD Gyarados lol. Ground doesn't have anything besides Gastrodon to tank those Blizzards (while even that can be 2HKO'd due to residual damage) and Dragons... well, that's just up to who's faster, but Ice has priority in Ice Shard as well, duh. Poison gets swept by Blizzards as well (just like User Name pointed out), Bugs cry at Fusion Flare (Volcarona is not an excuse because it gets owned by Stealth Rocks) and Normal has many Flying-types which LOL can't take a friggin Blizzard either, while Choice Scarf Staraptor can't even OHKO with Close Combat. So what happens? Everyone who wants to have a decent team will either run Kyurem-W under hail or counterteam with Monofighting/steel now just because half of all other types just get swept by Kyurem-W, and that's BORING. My sentence is BAN KYUREM-W!
     
  31. User Name

    User Name Life is a maze

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    @MMM
    I do think you're exaggerating it a bit in that Normal has Blissey/Chansey and even Meloetta (spamming Focus Blast is never the answer), I did almost lose to a Volcarona since Dragon Pulse wasn't doing enough to KO while it setup, and honestly I don't think Ground, Grass, Dragon, and Flying will have too many methods of survival against Ice anyhow; but, you are correct in that Kyurem-W makes a variety of Monotypes significantly harder to run. I just don't think it is to the extent that everyone will run Fightings/Steels.
     
  32. #PR0|-MMM-

    #PR0|-MMM- Back to abuse Brokengoth

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    If it's Specs it can actually 2HKO both Blissey and (assuming Stealth Rocks are on the field) Chansey, and assuming Meloetta has no special defense EVs (which are better off invested in its physical defense) it can be 2HKO'd as well.
    252SpAtk Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem White (+SAtk) Focus Blast vs 252HP/4SpDef Blissey (+SpDef): 51% - 61% (370 - 436 HP).
    252SpAtk Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem White (+SAtk) Focus Blast vs 252HP/4SpDef Eviolite Chansey (+SpDef): 43% - 51% (306 - 362 HP).
    252SpAtk Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem White (+SAtk) Focus Blast vs 252HP/0SpDef Meloetta (Neutral): 52% - 62% (213 - 251 HP).[/HIDE]
    It might take a few Pokémon out of the picture, but Kyurem-W can theoretically sweep every type with the appropriate move... question is what can they do back to Kyurem-W, and that isn't much since it doesn't have double weaknesses and Uber-ish bulk. Monoelectric can't do anything at all against it, for instance (Mag is taken down by different 3 possible moves and Sturdy is ignored, so no Flash Cannon). .__.
     
  33. User Name

    User Name Life is a maze

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    While Specs would help it against a MonoNormal's bulky guys, IMO it sacrifices too much against the likes of MonoGrass (Virizion), MonoDragon (everything except unboosted Dnite or other Kyus), and Fighting (Scarfed mons, Mienshao, etc.), which will be able to nail it without having to resort to Mach Punch. Additionally, Meloetta will still be able to deal significant damage since it can survive a Focus Blast to either shoot back its own Focus Blast (won't KO but when you're at 95 Speed with 20% HP you're not sitting around long) or use Relic Song and then KO with Close Combat.
    While certainly nothing can switch in on it, it becomes significantly easier to KO than if it were Scarf.
    And although Focus Miss will (sometimes) deal lots of damage, locking oneself into it rarely ever turns out well ;_;

    So, overall, I'd say the Scarf set is the main set to look at when it comes to suspecting Kyu-W, with maybe a look at the Sub set, which I have not tested, so I can't say much about it.
     
  34. #PR0|-MMM-

    #PR0|-MMM- Back to abuse Brokengoth

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    You've got a point too. (Though why the hell did some people mention Specs anyway...) As Dr. Doom said though, Kyurem-W has almost the special attack of Deoxys, which is banned. If Kyurem-W is a lot bulkier than him at the only sacrifice of being also a lot slower, why shouldn't he be banned?
    Also Kyurem-W can still use Draco Meteor against Meloetta, which should be able to at least deal significant damage so it can switch out, let something die, and come back in for the KO. Maybe Earth Power would be better than Focus Miss though...
    Would be nice to have a test on the Sub set as well though. I've heard that it's actually far better than choiced, but I'd like confirmation from someone who actually used it.
     
  35. Firer

    Firer Owner

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    Because mono psychic is fucking op?????
    If Kyu would be psychic we wouldnt need a suspect...
    Fact is kyu-w has some very common weaknesses including priorities and sr. Also deo-a has also a huge attack allowing it to run effectivly superpower and espeed meaning it ohko about the entier tier w/o taking a hit itself especially cause it hax acces to prio itself. Kyurem may be alot bulkier but that wont rly help him against a cc.
     
  36. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Man.. this thread...

    While it's pretty obvious that Kyurem-W has poor enough speed to have its non-scarf variants revenge killed by most scarfers with a rock, steel, fighting or dragon move that isn't seismic toss. This applies to quite a few things, I heard Rayquaza mentioned earlier and I think it's a good comparison. Ok you could argue that DD Ray' exists but you'd also probably say Swords Dance Ray is just as good if you weren't trying to prove a point.
    Just because something is easily revenge killed it doesn't mean it's instantly not broken. The fact that it pretty much forces you to revenge kill it should have the opposite effect if anything.

    There is one thing I think has to be said more. His weakness to hazards. While Ice does have access to 2 spinners in Cryogonal and Cloyster the likelihood of there being at least rocks littering the field is still fairly high, Spikes and Tspikes are less likely but they shouldn't be ignored anyway. I think the one main crack in his armour is his hazard weakness NOT the ability to get revenge killed, because that by nature costs you a Pokémon to do, and unless you're using Dugtrio (in which case you're using mono-ground and you're facing mono Ice which is not lookin' good for you just from that.) it's simple enough for Kyurem to switch out and come in later and do what it just did. Unless you've stacked 3 layers of Spikes, some Rocks and 1 or more layers of Tspikes. A properly EV'd Kyurem-W will come in 3 times on a Rock/Spikes setup with no Toxic spikes. Providing it lacks Life Orb and it takes no other damage.

    Well that probably made less sense than in my head so it meant;
    - Just because you can revenge kill it does NOT make it acceptable for the tier
    - The main point I don't think I've seen quite enough is hazards. Although talking about them always being fully stacked like half the mentions here is pretty stupid and unrealistic considering the fact that Ice does have spinners and that some types are quite limited in terms of Spikers and Tspikers.
    - This is a bit of an extra one,
    [secret]252Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor (+Atk) Bullet Punch vs 4HP/0Def Kyurem White (Neutral): 90% - 106% (354 - 416 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 38% chance to OHKO.
    252Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor (+Atk) Bullet Punch vs 4HP/0Def Kyurem White (Neutral): 78% - 91% (306 - 360 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    252Atk Technician Scizor (+Atk) Bullet Punch vs 4HP/0Def Kyurem White (Neutral): 60% - 70% (236 - 278 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.[/secret]
    So much for it being unquestionably decimated by priority. This is about the strongest priority it'll encounter (outside of SD Bullet Punch) and even the Banded one is no guarantee unless ofc rocks are around. (However it should be noted that this one will stop the LO Kyurem almost dead due to recoil unless it lacks band or Life Orb.). It also should be noted that, while Scizor will be run on just about 100% of bug and steel teams... it can only be run on bug and steel teams. Any other type has no access to priority this powerful except grass/fighting that has Techniloom's Mach Punch at equal power. But then, Techniloom is completely incapable of switching into Kyurem on anything that's not Earth Power (and if you're using fighting or grass the only thing that comes to mind that might make him use earth power is Cobalion/Terrakion)
    252SpAtk Life Orb Turboblaze Kyurem White (Neutral) Focus Blast vs 4HP/0SpDef Breloom (Neutral): 119% - 141% (314 - 370 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.
    .... yep
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 4, 2014
  37. Firer

    Firer Owner

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    Well, I think one can assume SR on the field most of the time, because it should be the first priority against a ice team. While its true that Ice has two spinners in Cloyster and Cryogonal, Cloyster often hasnt a free moveslot and not the time to use it, while Cryogonal is mostly not worth the rapid spin on a such offensive oriented type as Ice. While Stall is usable, because of hail, its rather difficult to do, because of the SR weakness (even the spinners) and weaknesses to all other forms or hazards (huh the only ice immune to spikes and tspikes are Aritcuno and deli who both posses a 4time weakness to sr -ignoring that deli sucks anywhay- Rotom-F and Cryogonal.) as well as being the worsest defensive type in the game. So Life Orb Scizor (and obv cb) actually got a guaranteed OHKO.
     
  38. #PR0|-MMM-

    #PR0|-MMM- Back to abuse Brokengoth

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    Actually, Cloyster can be used effectively, most actually expect a Shell Smash sweeper so they switch into a revenge killer and you actually get off a free Rapid Spin, which can even suck for Infernape-Suicide-Lead-Monos since now they can't set up Stealth Rocks anymore, making Kyurem-W even harder to deal with. I've never seen Cryogonal so I assume it sucks *cough*. And Hailstall is actually quite successful in Monotype with the likes of Stallrein and Snow Cloak in general; the first time I played Monotype I got to battle the first on the ladder and I already struggled against him with Monofighting against his Hailstall. I don't think Kyurem-W is a needed addition to Ice at this point, it just makes everyone run more and more Ice teams, but Ice was just fine before Kyurem-W came along.
     
  39. Firer

    Firer Owner

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    yeah most ppl assume a shell smasher. For the easy reason its better... Dafuq why spin, when I can sweep? I actually use a defensive cloyster on my waterstall but not for spinning, but for spiking purposes... It does fine, but I doubt it would do so well in a ice stall. They would be better going full offensive (especially with kyu-w)
     
  40. #PR0|-MMM-

    #PR0|-MMM- Back to abuse Brokengoth

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    Hailstall can help eliminate threats dangerous to Kyurem-W by the likes of Stallrein etc. Also Cloyster doesn't have that much of an easy time sweeping, and most other Pokemon on a Monoice can take out the same threats Cloyster can (offensive stuff like Mamoswine, that is), anyway, so why bother with Shell Smash? You'll just be walled and OHKO'd by any water type, and they're on so many teams, even Fighting .__.