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[BW2] Suspect Discussion: Spikes

Discussion in 'Gen 5 Side Metagames' started by Aurist, Sep 10, 2012.

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  1. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    A bit more of a complex one here, but here goes.

    Discuss what action you feel should be taken with regard to the Spikes situation in NEU. There are a number of options and sides you can take, including but not limited to: Banning spikes altogether, banning an abuser or abusers of spikes, limiting eviolite users to limit spikes layers, or even not doing anything at all.

    Please make intelligent posts and think before you post, and avoid theorymon and offering your opinion on things you haven't tested or faced.

    Try finding counters, checks and threats to Spikes layers, and viable ways to beat the strategy of spikes stacking and offer your opinion on the multiple options at hand.

    Additionally, if enough Spikers are considered bannable for their Spikes-laying capabilities, Spikes will be banned from NEU.

    Discuss ~
     
  2. Hobbes2

    Hobbes2 Aren't I dead or something

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    The spikers in NEU are far superior to their spinning brethren. Let's take a look at the viable spinners.

    Tentacool - Probably the only one. The others are outclassed by tenta itself, as tenta can actually do something - setup spikes
    Natu - Not a spinner, but a very viable blocker of spikes. Has a niche that allows it to be a solid choice to block spikes

    Thats it. They won't last forever, and the ghost types in NEU are definetly viable (Banette can actually beat both 1v1, and Jellicent's prevo (forgot name lol) is a great wall anyway)

    Spikes, when used in conjunction with NEU's powerful attackers makes the game a race to get spikes and get in a powerful offensive pokemon (like zangoose) to start sweeping.

    I don't believe individual users of spikes should be banned, because none of them are broken at all without spikes. If Roselia is banned, whats to say people won't just use dwebble or somethig of the like to take its place? Would we ban that too? Then we'd just be banning pokemon just because they use spikes, which falls back to the fact that we should be just ban spikes.
     
  3. Wander

    Wander Shitty Wizard

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    I have been meaning to test out Spikes again the last few days but the ladder is so dead it's not funny.

    So yeah, everything was said on the NEU discussion thread, Spikes is way too easy to set up and is nigh impossible to get rid of.
    The spinners are either beat by the Spikes abusers or the Spinblockers. I would vote for either the banning of the Spikes setters or just Spikes altogether, but since banning that many Pokemon would really hurt the tier I'd say we just ban the move Spikes.
     
  4. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    While I do think Spike stacking may be too powerful in NEU, I don't think we should be so hasty as to ban the move directly. Its extremely obvious that when people say spike stacking, they are referring almost exclusively to Roselia (its the only Pokemon that gets spikes in the stats with any form of consistent usage). Roselia is the only spiker with healing, bulk, and offensive presence. Pineco (the next used spiker in the stats) is extremely easy to set-up on, and has huge trouble switching into attacks with that SR weakness. Shelmet (with a total of 1 use in NEU) runs into much of the same problem, except that it can't spin away SR for itself in exchange for recover. Its just as much set-up bait, and it can't threaten with Explosion.
    Cacturne and Maractus might have the offensive pressure, but neither of them have any reliable healing (giga drain is not reliable by any means), nor do they have great bulk. Cacturne could do more damage by just attacking.

    I honestly think that banning Roselia will completely solve the problem, as all of the other Spikers lack Roselia's key abilities.
     
  5. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I would also like to say Maractus sucks ass. I've tried it on three different teams, and every time it got to spike it got to be set up fodder for something else.
     
  6. Roku

    Roku sup nerds

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    Alright, because of the major deadness of this discussion, I am posting my opinion. Roselia may be most of the problem, so I would say a testban of Roselia would be good for right now, to gauge whether Roselia is the problem or whether the move itself is the problem. Also, I think (the statistics being down so long has left me confused) that Roselia is leaving the tier at the end of the month, so it is also entirely possible the problem will resolve itself there, and stay resolved if Roselia stays in NU, but I still think that a testban would be a good idea.

    I apologize for getting a bit rambly there, I tend to not organize my thoughts all that well. >_>
     
  7. Luck>Skill

    Luck>Skill Well-Known Member

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    Since tier changes are happening in 10 days might as well wait, who knows if Roselia will move up / new stuff able to handle the Spikes problem will fall
     
  8. Hobbes2

    Hobbes2 Aren't I dead or something

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    Agreeing with this post, a Roselia test is probably the best way to go to see if the other spikes hold a threat as well.

    Though Luck is correct, we should probably wait until the tier changes.
     
  9. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    Yeah, tier changes indicate Roselia is gonna be definitely going up in a week or so, with 5% usage for most of the month and no sign of dropping. Piloswine's going up also seems likely to reduce the impact of hazard stacking on the tier and no hazard users are looking to be dropping. We'll have to see what happens. Not like NEU stuff doesn't move slowly anyway, eh?
     
  10. Hobbes2

    Hobbes2 Aren't I dead or something

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    Now that tier changes have been implemented, i think nah. Roselia is gone, and unless there's STILL a problem (which there really shouldn't be), then spikes isn't broken.
     
  11. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    Frankly with the rise of Roselia and Piloswine hazard stacking has been hugely nerfed to the point where it's barely an issue any more - spikes are no longer easy to get up either thanks to the increased offensive pressure coming from the drops. I'm gonna go ahead and say we're not taking any action on spikes (Roku already agreed with this on the server). Thank you all for participating in the discussion.
     
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