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Final Fantasy (FF)

Discussion in 'Active Themes' started by Narshen, Sep 11, 2012.

  1. Windblown

    Windblown sable knight

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    0: You could have mafias hax Auron and Tifa like how the mafia in Myth hax Ares and Aphro. I personally like the disconnection between Kefka and Kuja - I haven't done this yet, but you could inspect Kuja as Locke and PM him "hi Kuja" if you find him n1 and pretend to be Kefka who tried to kill him, then you can use him to vote people off - haven't done this yet, but it seems funny.

    1: Tidus is awful.
    2. Sure.
    3. Sure.
    4. Sure.

    Wave 2:
    1. Sure.
    2. Sure.
    3. 4 is fine to me
    4. lol
     
  2. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    IMO, instead of simply connecting them, just change the connection method. Make Kuja evade Kefka's kill instead of having Kefka with AnyButTeam, so spam is meaningless. Could even add a dummy message when that happens so both would know each other.
    Something similar could be done with Auron/Tifa, and maybe even include evil BGs/PLs there for some added chaos. Perhaps distract.mode.identify for Auron/Judge, and protect.mode.identify for Tifa/Yunalesca (and those mode.identify wouldn't tell the person's role, only that they used the action) (although Judge would rarely have a reason to protect someone other than their team).

    R.I.P. Tidus.

    Whatever.

    I like Gabranth not having the kill until last Solidor alive (in fact, I never liked them having it in first place). Other than not hindering the team if PL'd, it's also useful to confuse Stalkers/Watchers since there are plans to make them more relevant. It may also force village to make decisions when they find Gabranth but need to get rid of a killer first.
     
  3. Windblown

    Windblown sable knight

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    If these new changes aren't happening anytime soon, might want to fix the current 11p spawn.

    Garland x2

    Kefka

    Auron
    Tifa
    Locke
    Cactuar
    Dark Knight Cecil
    Moogle
    Moogle
    Moogle

    seems quite unbalanced towards village side. Throwing a lone Seymour would be the best way to balance it (immune to Tifa) or just add another Garland. Would replace the last Moogle that spawns at 11.
     
  4. Fiery Espeon

    Fiery Espeon The fire never bothered me anyway ~

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    @Windblown That's really funny because I talked to Fuzzysqurl about this too. (About fixing Nonpeak Spawn). Anyways, throwing another garland isn't really an option as I don't really find it being balanced if a Mafia side in NonPeak has 3 People. Seymour is an option. (Anyways, since Fuzzysqurl is planning to change the whole theme concept, I don't think he will chance NonPeak. He will probably keep it like this until he revamps anyway.)
     
  5. Windblown

    Windblown sable knight

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    @Fuzzysqurl pls

    Also cause QC reform is almost done I've chosen to write a sample review with the new QC review criteria to give people an idea of what a proper review & proper theme should be like.

    Flavor
    1. Creativity- Originality; Team composition; Game Messages

    This theme created the Kefka archetype - a killer that was often alone, with priority to outspeed the bodyguard and either ignore, kill, or flat out outspeed the PL of the theme. The Kuja archetype was also created - a role with the power to single-handedly control the voting phase. These two roles play a major factor in how FF games shape - an early Kefka or Kuja death brings the game into the village's hands because they are roles that prevent the samurai, Cloud, from claiming safely. On the other hand, identifying but keeping Kuja alive allows the other mafia to play him off the village, having him vote off other roles to the point where a side mafia can kill Kuja and win based on number majority.

    The village has a very distinct miller type in the form of Cactuar, an insane inspector whose inspects 90% reveal his target as Kefka. Even though he may inspect Kefka with his true 10%, he will most likely brush it off and cite his insaneness. The existence of Cactuar helps hide Kefka from the clutches of the inspector (which is why you shouldn't kill a claimed Cactuar lol) and brings doubt to the real Locke who may think he is Cactuar himself if he gets a Kefka inspect (by inspecting Kefka himself, or inspecting Cactuar, who inspects as Kefka. Kefka can further use this fact to hide himself from Locke.)

    Other features of the village are a BG and PL that can hax each other and another circle with Locke/Zidane/Cactuar. Dark Knight Cecil is a selfprotecting Mayor that can aim to transform for the coveted VCLR role in Paladin Cecil but lose his night kill invulnerability on that same night.

    Sin is made up of a simple goon (Jecht), a 2 vote PL (Yunalesca), and a PL evader (Seymour, who isn't that useful because PLing Jecht or Yuna stops them cold). House Solidor is made up of a goon (Larsa), a 2 vote BG (Gabranth, and an inspector (Vayne), which definitely looks like the stronger side on paper.

    Sephiroth is one of two lone roles; he is a godfather with a night kill and a daykill (and a voteshield of -3 in bigger games), which is a fairly standard repertoire for a lone role with lots of killing power. Ultimecia is the other lone role with a vote of 4 and double poisons, who becomes very strong as the game goes on. None of these are breakout concepts, but they are effective nevertheless.

    There's little flair regarding the game messages, which have standard lynch and kill messages - however I do like the win message of Kefka's Posse as it relates a well-known quote of Kefka (from Dissidia I believe?)

    Score: 4/5

    2. Consistency- Overall consistency of messages and information strings throughout the theme

    Locke and Cactuar's help messages are the same, so there's no way you can tell theme apart. Cloud's daykill message which is supposed to reveal him clearly states who he is. Not much to say here, information isn't faulty.

    Score: 5/5

    3. Adaptation- How well the roles match abilities portrayed from the original material

    Locke is a 'treasure hunter' or a thief. His job fits the inspector role quite well as a person who hunts for things.
    Auron is a protector - in FFX, he is described as Tidus' caretaker.
    Tifa is a distractor, who looks more like someone who would incapacitate you than distract you or do Hooker-like things tbh. Insert generic comment about female seduction powers here. Could be a better person to fit this role, like Yuna from FFX (side note, this is actually happening in the FF rehaul)
    Cecil's title is the Dark Knight / Paladin. Dark Knights according to the FF4 wiki have low defense, how are they supposed to protect themselves? Itis true that he does convert in game to a Paladin, who apparently casts Heal spells, so the BG of others makes sense there.
    Lightning has a Gunblade, so I guess she works as a vigilante because she can kill things as one of the more offensive FF protagonists.
    See above for my justification for Cloud - also one of the more prominent FF characters, so daykiller works fine.
    Spoilers, Aerith dies, but in this game she is already dead, so can't die? I guess it's some representation of Aerith from Advent Children or something, but I guess it does work. (also Seph can kill her which makes for canon)
    I have no justification for Cactuar's role. ???
    Tidus throws blitzballs, which apparently means he can distract 3 people. Not a lot of sense here tbh.
    Zidane is also a thief, so it kinda makes sense that he can a) hax and b) hax Locke (says in his help message that he can detect the presence of other thieves)
    Gigantuar is an enemy. Why is he on the village? iirc, Deria blames Moogle for this.
    No page for Chocobo Rider. Why not Chocobo itself? Chocobos apparently help the protagonists escape, so they must be fast and that means they can stalk easily because following people is easy when you're fast? loGGic

    Jecht turns evil in FFX, he's okay at Sin's side. Yunalesca apparently defeated Sin, why is she on this side? Seymour was also apparently raised to defeat Sin:
    As a child, Seymour was brought to Zanarkand where his mother intended to become a fayth so her son could use her aeon incarnation, Anima, to win the peoples' love by destroying Sin

    House Solidor: Larsa is actually good in FFXII, lol. Vayne and Gabranth are alright though. Vayne's a military genius, so I guess it makes sense fro him to inspect. As for Gabranth, he was assigned to be the bodyguard for Larsa, so him being a BG makes sense.

    Score: 3/5

    Gameplay

    4. Flow- How often power shifts between sides; Frequency of deaths; Flow of information; Overall Pace

    Games usually hinge on whether Kefka survives longer than Cloud. If this happens, village is at a huge disadvantage, although people usually win because of the PR circles aforementioned, so it is a village-sided game with more counterplay on the village's side rather than mafia's. Not too many deaths - without Seph, a max of 4 deaths usually. Games are of a medium pace - not too fast nor too slow.

    Score: 4/5

    5. Tactics- How open the theme is to strategical thinking; Ability to use various tactics including mind games

    Playing as Kefka and Kuja makes the game a lot more challenging, but very rewarding, as your job is to eliminate all the killers, rather than eliminate everyone else. It's very strategical as you have to analyze both a) tactics for acting as Cloud and Lightning and b) hunting for scum. Meatshielding is high in abundance as things like Gigantuar can claim as Cloud (although Seph can't kill Cloud so it's worth a shot to kill any Cloud claimers in the game), and Cactuar can meatshield Zidane. When you're village it's more of a "spam your command" kind of game, tbh, and when you're a basic mafia you just have to hope your team doesn't get screwed over early.

    Score: 4/5

    6. Balance- Does Night 1 "decide everything"?; Advantages for each side on start up; Counters to key roles; Is the set up broken?

    Night 1 hardly decides anything, as no one PR is really central to the village's success. Village's advantage is the very fast connection of power roles, that's for sure; mafias have more voting power come late game, however, and Kefka's side has one of the most evident win conditions in the game: eliminate all other killers.

    Kefka counters any village claimer; Yunalesca can distract any Locke claim if Kefka's dead (also screws over DKC if they find out who he is). Solidor's side doesn't have a lot of counterplay besides Vayne being able to fakeclaim Locke, which is something I don't really see. Set up isn't too broken for me, except for small games that I've already pointed out above.

    Score: 4/5

    Concept
    7
    . Main Features- Focus of the theme; Unique parts; Twists on ordinary concepts; Key roles or rules that play a major part in the theme; How everything ties together

    The focus is getting rid of Kefka, for sure, because eliminating him makes village much more open to claiming and connecting. There's nothing really 'unique' per se in the game, but that may be because I'm so used to playing this theme, as it's a mafia channel mainstay and the only thing really unique is how strong Kuja can be. Not a lot of twists either, as it's an old theme which made archetypes popular rather than reinventing.

    As for main roles, I'd say it revolve around Kefka-Locke-Cloud-Kuja-Lightning more than any other roles. Overall everything seems to mesh together, there's not one role that isn't that necessary or redundant (like Tingle in Zelda, not a very useless role thanks to a lot of mafia immune to PLs).

    Score: 5/5

    8. Learning Curve- Complexity of the theme; How easy it is to understand each role; Ability to differentiate sides easily; Avoiding "useless" "reskinned" roles that don't add anything of value to the theme

    Very easy to learn, besides Cactuar (it's not too hard, if people would actually read their role). Nothing is really reskinned; again, it's an old theme that made the roles from which people 'reskin'.

    Score: 5/5

    9. Fun- Good moments that can occur during a game; Why people would want to replay it

    I find it very fun to nail Kefka as Cloud or dominate a game as Kuja by finding out Lightning right on the day she finds me and winning by default - it's really enjoyable to play and the channel generally has a good reception towards it.

    Score: 5/5

    Final Score: 39/45
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2014
  6. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    QA is making some adjustments to the theme, PM me or @Windblown or @EljayQuiz for complaints suggestions!
    Currently only a small game adjustment to fix the legendary 8-2-1, but we'll make a more as necessary and incorporate some of the ideas that were brought up in this thread if possible.

    Edit:
    Created a FF2 to test some of the changes I wanted to make but were controversial. Please comment if you think they're good/bad changes, as well as other recommendations.
    This is Aerith's /roles btw:
    She replaces Lightning in the spawn, with Lightning pushed back to 19 when Anima/Zargabaath are introduced.

    Let me ask a question here I've been polling just about everywhere else: should Kefka be able to find Kuja with his /Kill; or, should they just know each other on startup. The options are:
    a) Kefka and Kuja are connected on startup.
    b) Kefka and Kuja are not connected, but Kefka's kill is AnyButTeam (this is current)
    c) Kefka can Kuja are not connected, but Kuja evades Kefka's kill.

    Personally I'm most fond of C, but the majority of the people I talked to like B as it is.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2015
  7. Shazan

    Shazan Obey to Kyubey

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    The B is not good for me, with that kefka can spam on all the players until he receives a message that says that he tried to target his partner, so they can connect pretty fast if there is no spy around.
    The C is more plausible because Kefka will know it only after the end of the night that he targetted his ally.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2015
  8. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    C > B >>>>>>>> A
    Connecting both provides them quite the substantial boost, but then again, the current situation already allow them to connect quite easily. I say go for C and try adding a 3rd method of connecting too (other than preventTeamvote and kill evasion).
     
  9. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    Kefka ignores spies anyways. It comes down to whether you can type everyone's name in a single night phase.

    C does nerf them a bit, but it's my preferred for the same reasons. A and B are basically the same tactically, it's just a matter of how it should be flavored. I don't know about giving them a way to connect. Could be interesting to give Kuja some sort of pseudo-inspect. Any ideas?


    Anyway, onto FF2 changes. Some edits to balance, flavor, and role interactions.

    5.27.2015.2: Extra experimental change: Kefka evades one nightkill. Kefka cannot find Kuja with /kill, but Kuja evades. Nonpeak expanded to 6p. Hope is a jailkeeper that haxes Lightning. Lots of flavor updates. Zidane is now the insane inspector that sees Kefka (rip Cactuar) and Celes is the Spy. Celes' hax on Kill is slightly higher, but Larsa and Jecht resist hax.

    • Kefka's 1x evade is just a micro-managing edit I made compulsively when going through other changes. Kefka exerts so much pressure that xfiring him dooms the mafia that hit him. Because mafia factions generally lack information until Vayne spawns (and even then, lol) hitting him is something that can't really be avoided and it can give the town an early win. It's entirely a balance edit. If it's unpopular it can go.
    • Kefka cannot find Kuja by spamming /Kill [name] on every living player. Kuja does evade his kill though. The above change does buff Kefka in compensation for this lack of connection, but everything mentioned so far would be good too (e.g., give Kuja a pseudo-inspect).
    • Nonpeak expansion because 6p was still giving the village an unwinnable scenario n1.
    • New role: Hope. He has a protect+safeguard+distract command (Esuna) which Lightning can hax.
    • Lightning's command is changed to /Saber, which Hope haxes.
    • Zidane has been changed to the former role of Cactuar, which thinks he's Locke but is actually insane and sees Kefka 90% of the time. Because why did Cactuar think he was Locke. Well, Zidane and Locke are both thieves so it makes a bit more sense. Celes replaces Zidane's old role.
    • Celes getting higher hax on kill is only important late game, because the roles she will hax actually have a lower chance of being found due to hax resistance. This was another micromanaging change. Plus it gives Larsa/Jecht a sense of importance or something.
    • Something I forgot to mention on both change logs are that Vayne/Seymour spawn in place of Larsa/Jecht in 16+ now. This was to buff mafia factions due to the fact that Cloud+Aerith pose a more informed threat than Cloud and Lightning did previously, but giving them some minor buffs (maybe including them in the hax resistance that Larsa/Jecht get) is probably a good idea.
    So, the FF2 cores for village connections are:

    Auron+Tifa (Bodyguard+Distracter) 7+
    Locke+Zidane+Celes (Inspector+Insane Inspector+Spy) 13+*
    Cloud+Aerith (Samurai+JOAT without a vote) 16+
    Lightning+Hope (Vigilante+Jailkeeper) 22+*
    *Locke and Zidane both spawn earlier but cannot connect. Lightning spawns alone at 19.

    Might pick up more of Fuzzy's old projects, but for now I'd like to actually see a 16+ game to get a feel for how the changes play out. Maybe it would be helpful to buff Sephiroth against xfire?

    Another poll: which FF character would you like to see added in larger games? By larger I mean like 25+. Both mafia and village suggests are welcomed. Never know when the channel is going to suddenly flood and leave us with 18 Moogles, so it would be nice to replace some of them with actual roles.
     
  10. Fate Testarossa

    Fate Testarossa Unbreakable Bond

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    FF
    I honestly like C more because Kefka can't kill Kuja (regardless of whether the setup is A, B, or C) and both Kuja and Kefka have preventTeamvote. Not sure if they could use another form of connecting or Kefka gets some kind of protection as it will take much longer for them to connect.

    FF2
    As much as I love a strong village, I feel that even with the abilities the mafia have, Lightning and Hope will make for a very strong pair (since Hope's command actually outspeeds Kefka's kill) as Lightning will basically be immune to anything and everything at night (including Kefka; Kefka only outspeeds other BGes [except Hope's BG], it doesn't pierce them) provided he doesn't need to kill someone that night. Cloud is normally a sitting duck until Kuja is found, so I like him having someone to connect with and give him some kind of information to work with. Aerith inspecting as Kuja is quite interesting, mainly because if Locke inspects him and reveals him in the chat, Cloud won't kill him (or shouldn't) thanks to their startup reveal.

    Moving onto the mafia, for the time being, I think Kefka's 1x evade shouldn't occur until Garlands are no longer in the spawn. It's not much of a buff, but Garlands were given that protection against Tifa by being able to only be distracted once, while Kefka kills Tifa if distracted (basically blocks any chance of Kefka x-firing Garland for that night) and has the small bit of protection in Zidane's insane inspects. Once Garlands are out of the spawn, I am all for Kefka's 1x evade, especially since it will take Kefka much longer to find Kuja, and offers him a small bit of protection against Lightning and other mafias. Speaking of protection against other mafias, Sephiroth and Ultimecia could probably use some additional protection of their own, or at least some way of finding information about other players (even something as simple and inconclusive as hax). If I had to pick one of the two to buff, I'd pick Ultimecia and at least give them something to give them an idea of who they may want to poison first. Sephiroth has enough protection against the village, but I can't really say the same about the mafia (then again, every role can be nightkilled and/or daykilled at some point). Increasing priority on Sephiroth's kill might be just enough; the same could be said for Ultimecia's poison as well (both are the lowest in the game even though they are solo roles). The last thing you may want to consider is lowering Anima's priority on poison, mainly because she has teammates (and unlike Ultimecia, she is able to nightkill as well).
     
  11. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    FF5 needs a stronger presence. I like Kara and Faris, but it's probably better to look for FF5 villains like Gilgamesh and Exdeath.
     
  12. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    I was hoping no one would notice this problem and quietly gave Kefka pierce :x. The priority is awkward no matter what. It can't be slower than Kefka or else Kefka won't change kill, but if it's faster it has to be pierce-able.

    Another thing to note about Hope/Lightning is Hope can't actually support Lightning as long as Lightning is doing Lightning things. He can't protect her while she kills, and he can't Distract whoever she is planning to kill because that will just block her kill. He can, however, suicide on Kefka to draw his fire so Lightning can kill him.

    She still evades him. The Kuja inspect also hinders their ability to connect early on. Sort of random flavor-wise though.

    Hm, I can see why that might be overwhelming in smaller spawns like 7p. But wouldn't it actually give Garland a much needed buff in the notorious 10-11p? I mean, if they hit Kefka early on they have to face village which has an Inspector and a connected PL and Bodyguard; even with the buff that ignoring second PL gives them they are going to lose that most of the time. Kefka keeps Tifa/DKC in check and Locke in doubt. If he dies Garland almost always lose. The 1x evade at least gives the Garlands the choice to kill him if they choose to do so intentionally while possible PL framing someone on the night they hit him first. It's just my opinion, but I feel like the 1x evade is even more important in 7-11 than in 12+.

    So, Anima -> 16 priority poison, Ultimecia -> 10 priority poison?

    I would rather have Sephiroth be immune to nightkill than have the -3 -2 voteshield. Resilience to xfire is better than resilience to lynch in large games in my opinion. If he was to have a buff against town, we could try making him inspect as Moogle for some reason? Either way, the voteshield just makes him impossible for the village to take on without Cloud, while at the same time he can just randomly get killed early on by other mafia factions.

    How about making Ultimecia hax kill and Esuna to give her some leads? She has a strong endgame against most non-killers, so she can try to coast while poisoning everything that kills until late game.

    Here's an idea for Kuja: what about giving him a command which tells him if the target can kill during the night/day? Not only would help him find Cloud/Lightning, in addition to being useful for finding Mafia to lynch late game, it would also be a way to find Kefka. Someone inspects as a killer? Try voting them. If it's Kefka, it fails anyway.
     
  13. Fate Testarossa

    Fate Testarossa Unbreakable Bond

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    I see your point. It's just more often than not, I don't see Lightning connect with the village (considering Locke [and not Vayne] has to find her and other power roles first) and/or Lightning is just randkilling every night (when the village's numbers have dwindled though, I'm fine with it). I honestly like the fact that Hope's command has a distract as it can stop reckless Lightnings in their tracks while still protecting them from harm. I didn't even think about how Hope can't PL a confirmed mafia as it will block Lightning's kill, but it will allow for PL stalling if that is the last mafia faction (but that is usually not the case).

    Right, with Kefka dead, DKC is safe to claim, selfvote to confirm its role, and then connect the village for an easy win. I was definitely looking at this as protection for mafia against other mafia, and failed to consider protection for mafia against the village as well as the potential dependency mafia factions may have between each other. Simply put, it's worth at least testing Kefka's 1x evade in the "village can't lose" 10p and 11p setups. On a side note, do we let Kefka know when he has evaded a kill?

    That would be most ideal in my opinion.

    A nightkill immunity is significantly better and isn't too much of a buff, especially since he is a solo role. (After all, there are a lot of 'OP' roles from other themes, yet most of them are still susceptible to being nightkilled.) Anyone can be killed during the night, but only one person can be lynched each voting phase. Nightkills give him protection against Lightning and other mafia, while the immunity to stalk and watch gives him a bit of protection against the village (without making the village helpless if they were to lose a PR, mainly Cloud or Lightning). I probably have said this somewhere (maybe on the server and not the forums), but I personally prefer ignoring distractors over killing distractors, since your kill is still blocked. Then again, it would be nice to be able to eliminate a mafia threat like Yunalesca (vote of 2 to 1v1 in the voting phase) or a village power role like Hope.

    Definitely worth giving it a shot. It's information that gives her leads without allowing her to almost instantly figure out everyone's role or faction. She has to think about who she chooses to poison given her additional information, but she isn't left completely helpless where she has to just hope she poisons the right people ("wow of course I poisoned Kefka and Kuja n1 easy village win" etc etc etc).

    Would it tell both night and day? I guess my main reason for asking that is because of how easily Sephiroth could be found (or confirmed as it is the only role that can nightkill and daykill). Regardless, I like the idea because Kuja will still have to tread with caution and not blow their cover or make their role obvious early on, yet they won't be a sitting duck waiting for Kefka to find them. It's also kind of nice because they have to remember Ultimecia, a mafia role that can't kill.

    I'm thrilled to see that more attention is being focused on information gathering and protection against other roles and/or factions rather than kills. (I'll never understand why people want to kill but have no idea who to actually kill without having any reliable way to gather information [most vigilantes are a good example].)
     
  14. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    Also Hope's Safeguard can make Locke/Zidane hesitant to PM. "Says they were safeguarded, but what if Hope is PL stalling?" I mean usually I'd take the chance because Hope will go on Lightning as long as there isn't anything to kill, but then you end up randomly PMing Yunalesca and g_g.

    Currently he does, but I like the idea of making it silent to make him paranoid of whether he can leave Garland alive or not in a scenario like Kefka vs Garland vs Paladin Cecil.

    Done.

    .
    Done and done. Seph now ignores PL instead of changetarget, and is immune to nightkills instead of voteshield.

    Also done, thought the exact numbers for her hax are debatable. Currently she has very high for the target of a kill since this will help her plant poisons on people who are not going to die already. She can also try claiming if she haxes someone trying to kill her.
    Code (text):
    1.  
    2.                     "kill": {
    3.                         "revealPlayer": 0.25,
    4.                         "revealTeam": 0.45
    5.                         },
    6.                     "esuna": {
    7.                         "revealPlayer": 0.1,
    8.                         "revealTeam": 0.2
    9.                         }
    10.  
    She should be able to find Lightning based on Esuna target, but Hope can also try framing by spamming on a random person.

    Added this. Kuja's /trance will just say "~Self~ is capable of killing" or "~Self~ is not capable of killing" atm because it would be annoying if he could find Cloud and Sephiroth that easily imo. Also in addition to not being able to find Ulti, it will show Yuna and Judge as harmless until they are alone.

    Here's the full changelog:

    5.28.2015: Various buffs to mafia. Sephiroth no longer has a voteshield, but is immune to all nightkills. Ultimecia can hax kill and Esuna. Kuja has a command /trance which tells him whether or not the target can kill (either day or night). Vayne ignores hax. Seymour ignores and now identifies distracters. Flavor and priority updates.

    Seymour/Vayne buffs were last minute decisions to help mafia in 16-18p which I'm not particularly attached to but thought might improve the setup.

    I like Gilgamesh. Yet another solo role. What should he do?
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2015
  15. Shazan

    Shazan Obey to Kyubey

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    Apart cactuar FF always lacked the addition of recurrents character of the series like chocobos or the most classic summons like ifrit Shiva or bahamuth. Because of this I like the idea of Gilgamesh as role, afterall it's the only character which is always the same in any incarnation which travel between all the dimensions of final fantasy. Maybe as powers he could be in a team together to other one-shot summons like Odin and yojimbo which they share together a normal kill, but once per game they could target and kill a role instead then a
    player but after that they will be unable to use any other action for the rest of the game. For exemple Gilgamesh could write the name of a killer role like /cloud and that player will die from it, meanwhile Odin could be able to kill a mayor role like /kuja.
    Other possible recurrent character that could be added are Cid, Biggs and Wedge, Ultros a Typhoon, Ultima and Omega weapon, or some other classic summon like ramuh and Alexander.
     
  16. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    I added this role (Gilgamesh) but forgot to update thread.
    I wanted to avoid making it too complicated, instead Gilgamesh just adds to the daykillfest in large games. I imagine whichever of Gilgamesh/Sephiroth outlasts the other will have a good chance of winning; they are both immune to standard kills, while Seph is immune to Kefka and resists poison, Gilgamesh has a 1x lynch evade as well as an Inspect. Most likely, one of them will take out the other before any other faction does.

    Also added Krile because why not. I might put her in smaller games (14+) because she's an interesting type of role that needs to be used more. It makes the villager game more interesting anyway. Every other village role has a way to connect to other members of the village now, and Moogles can try to connect with Krile, if they use their vote.
    Oh, and the 1-4p is because I made a non-peak but decided it was bad and removed it. Anyone have any creative ideas for 3-4p, preferably using existing roles?

    Also more roles for large games, preferably getting representation from every main series game. A village role to co-spawn with Gilgamesh would be ideal since he has the potential to do a lot of damage to the village.
     
  17. Fate Testarossa

    Fate Testarossa Unbreakable Bond

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    Gilgamesh is faster than Kefka after being lynched? LOVE IT. I'm pleased to see that Gilgamesh doesn't get revealed when surviving its lynch either (in case of a close vote or something). Also, Gilgamesh's protect probably shouldn't be haxable imo. On a lesser important note, Gilgamesh is able to expose himself during the standby (target is Any instead of AnyButSelf, not sure if it was intentional or if it even matters [bar a tabfail or something]). As for the village role that could co-spawn for village alongside Gilgamesh, what would be most appropriate? Just another decently strong role (power in kills and/or maybe votes), a safe role (one that evades or has a chance to evade kills, reveals attacker when killed, voteshield...not all of these at once obviously), a connector, one that acts as a decent answer to Gilgamesh, or any combination of the four?

    I have some ideas for 3p and 4p games, but they're kinda....eh, not what you would call creative (as in the setup is similar to 3p and 4p setups in other themes).
     
  18. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    This. FF needs more summons. Possibly as part of a summoner character like Rydia or Garnet.
     
  19. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    Good point about the protect hax. Tifa OP. I made Gilgamesh able to self target because his Expose only reveals the target of his inspect, not the role. So he can frame it on himself to confuse people into thinking he's a Moogle that Gilgamesh decided wasn't worth killing.

    Some kind of counter would be fun. Looking to underrepresented FF games for flavor.

    Lightning/Tifa/Kefka go?

    How about a recruiter role? Could be fun especially if some role kept their abilities after conversion. Like, a summoner that converts killers into a summon that can kill, PLs into a summon that can PL, etc.
     
  20. Shazan

    Shazan Obey to Kyubey

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    Seems too much powerful for a villager role, unless you give it a limit like only one summon per time of per game. Maybe it would be better if the summoner is able to convert only the moogles or himself and after a time limit they return to their previous roles.

    If you really want at least one character per main episode, the situation for now is this:
    -There are no good guys from Final Fantasy 1,2,3,8 in this theme.
    -There are no bad guys from Final Fantasy 234 in this theme.
    which means the most underrepresented FF games are the 2nd and 3rd chapters, which i can understand after all they are between the oldest one and the protagonists of the original version of the third chapter doesn't even have a name.
    Anyway here some names from the second and third chapters that you could use:
    Final Fantasy 2:
    Good: Firion, Maria, Guy, Minwu.
    Evil: Emperor Matheus
    Final Fantasy 3:
    Good: Onion Knights, Luneth, Arc, Refia and Ingus.
    Evil: Xande and Cloud of Darkness.

    Sadly I never played this chapters so I have no idea what to suggest as abilities for this roles.
    Anyway flavour wise the best role as counter for Gilgamesh is his rival Bartz probably, after all he often mention Bartz when he makes his Cameos inside the other episodes of Final Fantasy.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2015
  21. Fate Testarossa

    Fate Testarossa Unbreakable Bond

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    I don't know anything about the lore of FF but if Bartz were to be added to the theme as a village role that can counter Gilgamesh, maybe he could either counter Gilgamesh's daykill, counter his nightkill, chance to hax his inspect and/or daykill, or any combination of those. I don't see this as too strong of a role mainly because its intent is to counter a specific powerful role.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2015
  22. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    @Shazan thank you for the detailed list, it's been really helpful.

    For now I added a bunch of new roles to large games. Randomly gave Ultimecia a teammate because too many solo roles would really get stale. I'm also trying out the new day converts with Zemus, and becoming uncreative enough to just throw in Cook/Mini for vote power in large games. Rydia uses multiple Summons to act as a complicated counter to Gilgamesh which can beat him in different phase if played correctly.

    Rydia:
    Zack:
    Firion and Maria:
    Zemus:
    Should check /roles :lumarian for details about that.

    Golbez:
    Xande:
    With that, every FF should be represented (probably?). It should be noted that some roles like Chocobo rider became the more versatile and flavorful Rydia, while Tidus isn't a thing... for now.
     
  23. Fate Testarossa

    Fate Testarossa Unbreakable Bond

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    Asura > all with mist coming in at a close second imo. Rydia in asura form can spam her protect for Tifa to hax it, and then protect Tifa while Auron protects Rydia (assuming Auron and Tifa are connected). She can also change forms every night anyways which I really like. If you wanted to make for some mindgames, you could have every form of Rydia show up onlist (and maybe onteam as well) as just Rydia and not show what form she is in. This way only inspectors would be able to see her form and even then, would still have to tread lightly as she can change forms every night. I ran the updated code through Rice's simulator, and I think each one of Rydia's converting commands needs a "cancel" for all its other forms. http://puu.sh/iaXtz/d058de9e37.png The most recent convert command I used was chocobo, yet I changed to mist instead.

    Firion is supposed to have a vote of -3, but has a vote of 3 in the code.

    Zemus and Golbez look to be quite a powerful duo, and I am pleased to see that Lunarians keep their original abilities (for the most part) after being converted as well as avoid being haxed. I noticed that Zemus's control command and Golbez's distract are both AnyButSelf instead of AnyButTeam. Also, Lunarian Samurai gets startup reveal on Aerith, which is fine if Cloud was converted, but kinda gives a free reveal if Zack is the one converted instead, as he doesn't know Aerith at the start of the game. To a lesser degree, the same could be said about Lunaraian Samurai being revealed when it daykills--Cloud's kills revealed, but Zack's didn't. I also noticed that the regular Lunarian is sided with the village (and not the Lunarians), and I'm assuming that was a mistake that needs to be fixed.

    Xande's ability to protect is just what Ultimecia needed--some form of protection. The inspect (which is AnyButSelf instead of AnyButTeam...even though people should be paying attention to who their teammates are anyways) is another good way to help Ultimecia prioritize who she should poison. My favorite part of Xande is the revealing daykill. A nonrevealing one would be too strong, but a revealing one helps draw attention away from Ultimecia and keep her in the game longer, and she get stronger the longer the game goes on with her vote of 4 and a poison that can only be blocked by two roles (not to mention there is no detoxer).

    I believe Lunarian, Lunarian Killer, Lunarian Samurai, the Rydia that initally spawns (is in the code as just "rydia"...in case they haven't decided to pick a form), and Xande all need to be added to Kuja's winIfDeadRoles.
     
  24. Shazan

    Shazan Obey to Kyubey

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    Rydia's evocations' abilities seems pretty powerful for a jack of all trades, so I was thinking that her active abilities could have some day of recharge, this way a player will be more pushed to change form instead then simply staying into the more safe mist form or the asura one and abuse their abilities, especially because if she connects with auron and tifa then they become very difficult to kill, and with Cecil and Hope behind the corner the village will be a little too much protected by nightkills.
    On the Pro side if Rydia's abilities will have some sort of recharge at least she will be unable to abuse them too much and she will be a little more unpredictable because she will try to change abilities every turn.

    P.S.
    I never heard about this mist summon inside the saga and i cannot find it into the Final Fantasy wikia does this summon have other names ?
     
  25. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    Miki Productions forgot to add no Hax again. But I kind of like it anyway, because otherwise Asura has minimal utility since she will have trouble finding teammates.

    Actually, the names for each role is just Rydia. It's only the infoName which specifies the form changes (this is for /roles). That way, Inspect and onlist always show "Rydia."

    Miki Productions. Fixed.

    MP fixed

    Kept forgetting to change that to AnyButTeam. [email protected] Zack getting reveal on Aerith though.

    MIKI PRODUCTION
    (for a while i thought day converts were bugged because i gave lunarian samurai anybutteam daykill and he couldn't kill moogle... it was because he was sided with village...)

    Fixed the AnyButSelf again. Ulti is probably ridiculously strong with Xande, but you never know, because there's also like 7 (yes SEVEN) possible daykills in 29+. If she survives the first few days (which is more likely at least during night due to personal bodyguard) then she will have great chances at winning.

    Yes to Xande. Rydia doesn't actually spawn. Rydia is on the spawn list with "rydia_mist" so she automatically starts there and can't actually access that form. (It's there for /roles again.) Lunarians don't need to be on Kuja winIfDead because Zemus is. Because Zemus kills all converts on death, there will never be a Lunarian Killer while Zemus isn't there, so it's redundant.

    I see your point. There is no form that is absolutely dominant against a mafia side though (except maybe House). I have a feeling what's most likely is people going Titan and killing everything, but even that is pretty strong for village. However, this role co-spawns with Gilgamesh. Gilgamesh more than any other faction is going to destroy village, because of his 1x immunity to lynch and almost immunity to nightkill. Plus he can Expose for precision kills. And he gets a second kill if lynched. Rydia is intentionally strong because Gilgamesh is also insanely powerful.

    I do like your idea for forcing converts though. Maybe compulsory night action to change into next form? Yet another new mechanic to test out.

    It's short for Mist Dragon, but I should update that on infoName.
     
  26. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    Got no results from /watch even though 2 players targetted my target (Agent K).
    (02:31:53) ***************************************************************************************
    (02:31:53) Times Up! :
    (02:31:53) ±Game: Ray Quaza (Judge Gabranth) has been removed from the game!
    (02:31:53) ***************************************************************************************
    (02:31:53) ±Current Roles: Aerith, Cloud, Dark Knight Cecil, Kefka, Krile, Kuja, Locke, Moogle, Moogle, Moogle, Seymour, Tifa, Vayne Solidor, Yunalesca, Zidane.
    (02:31:53) ±Current Players: Aaditya 01, Agent K, Broken Neptune, Diamondslight, Gowther, Klefki, LittleRoot, Murtaza, RiceKirby, White Angel, XxBlueacidxX, Yttrium, Zyrader, lalelilulo, qaz.
    (02:31:53) ±Current Team: Aerith, Cloud, Dark Knight Cecil, Krile, Locke, Moogle, Moogle, Moogle, Tifa, Zidane
    (02:31:53) ±Time: Night 2
    (02:31:53) Make your moves, you only have 45 seconds! :
    (02:31:53) ***************************************************************************************
    (02:31:53) ±Game: Your commands are: /distract, /protect, /kill, /stalk, /watch and /cancel.
    (02:31:57) qaz: nice
    (02:31:58) ±Game: You have chosen to watch Agent K!
    (02:31:59) Zyrader: distract who?
    (02:32:01) Murtaza: moogle here ._.
    (02:32:03) Murtaza: what to do
    (02:32:05) XxBlueacidxX: nice one
    (02:32:18) LittleRoot: moogle can only vote
    (02:32:20) LittleRoot: iirc
    (02:32:31) Broken Neptune logged out.

    (02:32:33) Murtaza: ._.
    (02:32:38) ***************************************************************************************
    (02:32:38) Times Up! :
    (02:32:38) ±Game: 'My blade will lead me to the light!' Dark Knight Cecil has transformed into Paladin Cecil, altering his abilities!
    (02:32:38) ±Game: Agent K (Cloud) has fallen!
    (02:32:38) ±Game: Klefki (Zidane) has fallen!
    (02:32:38) ±Game: qaz (Vayne Solidor) has fallen!
    (02:32:38) ±Game: You have 0 charges remaining
    (02:32:38) ***************************************************************************************
    (02:32:38) ±Current Roles: Aerith, Kefka, Krile, Kuja, Locke, Moogle, Moogle, Moogle, Paladin Cecil, Seymour, Tifa, Yunalesca.
    (02:32:38) ±Current Players: Aaditya 01, Broken Neptune, Diamondslight, Gowther, LittleRoot, Murtaza, RiceKirby, White Angel, XxBlueacidxX, Yttrium, Zyrader, lalelilulo.
    (02:32:38) ±Current Team: Aerith, Krile, Locke, Moogle, Moogle, Moogle, Paladin Cecil, Tifa
    (02:32:38) ±Time: Day 2 (Standby)
    (02:32:38) You have 45 seconds to debate who are the bad guys! :
    (02:32:38) ***************************************************************************************


    (02:42:53) RiceKirby: Fate Testarossa, can you readlog who targetted Cloud N2?
    (02:43:01) +Fate Testarossa: sure thing
    (02:43:24) +Fate Testarossa: aside from you watching him
    (02:43:34) +Fate Testarossa: (01:43:05) Aaditya 01 used: /kill Agent K
    (02:43:38) +Fate Testarossa: (01:43:05) White Angel used: /distract Zyrader, /distract Agent K
    (02:44:10) RiceKirby: And I got no results from watch =/
    (02:45:08) RiceKirby: Pretty sure I made /watch work even on dead targets


    On a similar note, I didn't get results from /stalk either.
    (02:29:23) ***************************************************************************************
    (02:29:23) Times Up! :
    (02:29:23) The Roles have been Decided! :
    (02:29:23) ±Game: You are a Aerith!
    (02:29:23) ±Game: Your sheer willpower allows your spirit to live on within the Lifestream and communicate with the Heroes. Your vote may count for nothing, but you have many clever abilities at your disposal. You can /Watch, /Stalk, /Protect, /Distract, and /Kill [name] each once per game (Hint: use /Cancel if you change your mind!). Work together with Cloud and the rest of AVALANCHE to defeat the Villains!
    (02:29:23) ±Game: The Cloud is Agent K!
    (02:29:23) ±Current Roles: Aerith, Auron, Celes, Cloud, Dark Knight Cecil, Judge Gabranth, Kefka, Krile, Kuja, Locke, Moogle, Moogle, Moogle, Seymour, Tifa, Vayne Solidor, Yunalesca, Zidane.
    (02:29:23) ±Current Players: Aaditya 01, Agent K, Broken Neptune, Diamondslight, Gowther, Hurricane, Kland, Klefki, LittleRoot, Murtaza, Ray Quaza, RiceKirby, White Angel, XxBlueacidxX, Yttrium, Zyrader, lalelilulo, qaz.
    (02:29:23) ±Current Team: Aerith, Auron, Celes, Cloud, Dark Knight Cecil, Krile, Locke, Moogle, Moogle, Moogle, Tifa, Zidane
    (02:29:23) ±Time: Night 1
    (02:29:23) Make your moves, you only have 60 seconds! :
    (02:29:23) ***************************************************************************************
    (02:29:23) ±Game: Your commands are: /distract, /protect, /kill, /stalk, /watch and /cancel.
    (02:29:23) Aaditya 01: kland is shit
    (02:29:30) Yttrium: what
    (02:29:32) Yttrium: 18 players
    (02:29:34) +Diamondslight: crystal here
    (02:29:38) ±CommandBot: The command tt doesn't exist
    (02:29:41) Yttrium: what is a Krile and Celes
    (02:29:42) Yttrium: wth
    (02:29:43) RiceKirby: [Whisper to Agent K] Hi
    (02:29:53) Murtaza: :/
    (02:29:57) ±Game: You have chosen to stalk Kland!
    (02:29:58) Agent K: '-'
    (02:30:02) Kland: really
    (02:30:13) XxBlueacidxX: °_°
    (02:30:14) RiceKirby: I thought I joined FF
    (02:30:22) ***************************************************************************************
    (02:30:22) Times Up! :
    (02:30:22) ±Game: Kland (Auron) has fallen!
    (02:30:22) ±Game: You have 0 charges remaining
    (02:30:22) ***************************************************************************************
    (02:30:22) ±Current Roles: Aerith, Celes, Cloud, Dark Knight Cecil, Judge Gabranth, Kefka, Krile, Kuja, Locke, Moogle, Moogle, Moogle, Seymour, Tifa, Vayne Solidor, Yunalesca, Zidane.
    (02:30:22) ±Current Players: Aaditya 01, Agent K, Broken Neptune, Diamondslight, Gowther, Hurricane, Klefki, LittleRoot, Murtaza, Ray Quaza, RiceKirby, White Angel, XxBlueacidxX, Yttrium, Zyrader, lalelilulo, qaz.
    (02:30:22) ±Current Team: Aerith, Celes, Cloud, Dark Knight Cecil, Krile, Locke, Moogle, Moogle, Moogle, Tifa, Zidane
    (02:30:22) ±Time: Day 1 (Standby)
    (02:30:22) You have 45 seconds to debate who are the bad guys! :
    (02:30:22) ***************************************************************************************



    (02:51:19) RiceKirby: While we are at it, can you check if Aaditya killed Kland N1, and if not, if Kland used their action?
    (02:51:59) +Fate Testarossa: oh my bad
    (02:52:05) +Fate Testarossa: from ff again?
    (02:52:21) +Fate Testarossa: (01:43:05) lalelilulo used: /kill Kland (Haxed by Hurricane [revealTeam/revealPlayer])
    (02:52:21) +Fate Testarossa: (01:43:05) Aaditya 01 used: /kill Kland
    (02:52:31) fsk joined the channel.

    (02:52:34) +Fate Testarossa: yes kland spammed n1 so tifa haxed the shit out of

    If I remember correctly, in both cases I should at least get the "Your target didn't visit/was visited" message.
     
  27. Fuzzysqurl

    Fuzzysqurl baa baa mareep I do what I want Server Owner Developer I do what I want Server Owner Developer

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    Doesn't Kefka have priority over auron protect? As in, the user would die before they did their action and no stalking occurs? Or has the code changed since I last played?
     
  28. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    For the stalk case, that may be the case.
    But watch is supposed to keep track even when the target dies (since that's the whole point of it).
     
    Fate Testarossa likes this.