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[BW2] Suspect Discussion: Mandibuzz

Discussion in 'Gen 5 Side Metagames' started by Aurist, Oct 4, 2012.

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  1. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    [​IMG]

    Discuss the possibility of Mandibuzz being banned or not.

    Make intelligent posts, avoid talking about things you didn't test.

    Try finding counters, checks, and threats to Mandibuzz. Try to give an estimate of its power, and what it does very well. Don't just say "it's extremely broken" or "it's not broken at all" without good reasoning. Then say your opinion on its tiering.

    If you think Mandibuzz is bannable, try to touch on the multiple reasons why it is effective - its Movepool, its synergy with the metagame, its ability to take hits and stall, etc.

    If a consensus is reached after discussion, then it'll probably be adopted. Be sure to clearly state your opinion (preferably backed up with good arguments), as we do take everyone's opinion into consideration.

    Let's see if we can get a good suspect thread going! Those are pretty rare nowadays.
     
  2. Darklight

    Darklight Nothing is True

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    Mandibuzz is probably the defination of bulk in the Wifi NEU tier. It is so damn bulky that it is capable of surviving Slaking's CB Giga Impact or Ampharos' Specs Thunderbolt. It has a humongous movepool of Whirlwind, Taunt, brave bird. Nothing can safely setup in the tier because Mandibuzz survives it and phazes you away. It is also really hard to taunt since of it's high base speed it will just Taunt you before. It's attacking moves are also great with Brave Bird killing every thing that is weak to it and it can also go Nasty Plot killer which believes me hits really hard.

    so my opinion:
    Ban It
     
  3. two sides of one coin

    two sides of one coin sick of all her shit

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    I don't think that Mandibuzz balances the NEU metagame at all. It can't be set-up on, it can't be hit by status, it has a decent ability, nice stats, a great movepool (well what it needs it has) it can't be phazed out, and as Darklight said, even the most powerful of attacks fail to KO it, leaving prediction almost redundant.

    Ban it.
     
  4. VuvuzelaΒzz

    VuvuzelaΒzz •Sage

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    Bulk, in and of itself, does not make pokemon broken(e.g. Probopass/Bastiodon). Hell, taking powerful hits at max HP doesn't make a pokemon broken. If it did, Cresselia would be BL. The fact of the matter is that Mandibuzz "surviving" a Specs Ampharos Tbolt just means that it either has a 75% chance to Toxic it and then die(since 252 Spd Amphy outspeeds it), or Whirlwind it and be at very low health. And it only "survives" if it's at near maximum health with positive nature 252 Sdef (not even a particularly common set).

    It has a decent movepool, but listing 3 moves doesn't exactly prove it has a "humongous" movepool. It's not particularly versatile, and most of it's non-wall sets are rather gimmicky.

    Wow, Mandibuzz can SURVIVE SWORDS DANCE/NASTY PLOT/AGILITY/DRAGON DANCE/ETC.??? What amazing bulk! That truly is frightening. I find all this rather hard to believe, and yet... doesn't Ditto already basically prevent most set up mons from "safely setting up"? Why haven't we banned that little pink blob yet?

    There's more than one way to skin a cat... or in this case pluck a vulture of it's feathers. You don't have to taunt Mandibuzz to beat it. It's merely one way to prevent it from doing it's job.


    Because it's common protocol to just stay in on a 120 BP SE move with no actual chance of KOing/crippling your opponent's poke. And I'm not exactly sure what set you'd be running in terms of EVs and actual moves on the NP Mandi, but it doesn't look like it's be getting that many kills. To hit een remotely hard you'd have to invest in Satk. Without speed, the lack of bulk would leave you vulnerable to most offensive mons, and with speed you'd be sacrificing even more bulk, making yourself easily revengeable... well, killable really.

    Most offensive pokemon that aren't choiced aren't exactly set up bait, and yet they're not banned. Plus, you can set up on Mandi with anything faster than it that's not weak to Brave Bird. It can also be statused by anything faster than it, and to not get statused the user has to either predict perfectly on switches, or be very weary of switching it in on mons that tend to carry status moves, because it's effectiveness is greatly reduced when statused. As I said it's movepool is decent, but not diverse by any means and it can be phazed out by Dragon Tail/Circle Throw(not that phazing is the be all end all of suspecting and competitive pokemon). I'm not sure how barely surviving strong hits while at max health makes prediction redundant, but I'm sure you can enlighten me.

    As you can most likely tell, I'm not in favour of banning Mandibuzz. I'm not biased towards keeping it, as I haven't used it, but I really haven't struggled when I faced teams carrying it. It's bulky, but it hasn't been all that threatening. I had more trouble facing Golbat than I did facing Mandi, for the simple reason that the fighting resist(or lack there of) is quite significant NEU. The only way I could really fathom it being broken is through synergy with other common and useful pokemon of the tier, namely the drops, as in the previous metagame, it didn't seem overpowered to me. I'll hold my verdict on it until I've actually played the new metagame, but I just wanted to get some poor points out of the way.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2012
  5. Wander

    Wander Shitty Wizard

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    Mandibuzz is an annoying Pokemon, but it's not exactly what I'd call broken.

    To those who say it has a "humongous" movepool, you are wrong. You just are.
    I myself have never used Mandibuzz, but I rarely have any problems with it, it can wall a lot of NEU attackers and hinder setup sweepers but like Vuvu said, bulk and (decent) utility doesn't make a Pokemon broken.

    The October drop has given us 2 nice Mandi checks, Electivire and Ampharos.
    Electivire can 2HKO Mandibuzz after rocks (Oh yeah, it takes 25% everytime it comes it) with Wild Charge.
    And Ampharos can just hit it hard with Tbolts, Specs Ampharos beats it every time unless it's a SpDef variant, in which it's less effective against NEU's physical threats.

    Golbat outspeeds and outstalls Mandibuzz, as well as being able to cripple a possible switch in.
    On the offensive side, Carracosta, Electabuzz, Electrode, and Articuno can handle Mandibuzz rather reliably.

    Also, regarding the Nasty Plot set, in all my experience with the tier, not once have I ever seen it, and on concept it just makes it easier to kill.

    So in my opinion, Mandi is fine where she is. She's a pain to face off against but with good party planning and help from hazards, it's perfectly managable.
     
  6. Wobbyble

    Wobbyble Member

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    Just to add to the checks and counters...
    Vigoroth can outspeed and Taunt, as well as Toxic, and take like 15% from Brave Bird or something. It can't come in on Toxic or Taunt from Mandibuzz, but it's not too hard to create an opening for him to come in.
     
  7. KennedyXOXO

    KennedyXOXO Spriter

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    #dont ban it
    its not even that hard to take on. Pikachu 2KOS it with +2 NP set Thunderbolt (neutral nature), when Mandi has max sp def and a calm nature, like normal. Just about any status and any super effective attack can kill her.
     
  8. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    Y'all make it sound like a majority of the metagame can 2hko or Toxic her without significant risk on their part.

    "Electivire can 2HKO Mandibuzz after rocks", kind of amazing how this pokemon with 123 base attack and a super effective STAB can 2hko. Isn't it also kind of amazing how Mandibuzz can still actually stall this thing out? Electivire here is completely relying on a move with heavy recoil against a pokemon with base 110 HP. All Mandibuzz has to do here is Roost a couple times and Electivire is completely dead. And there's not a single other move Electivire can run to kill off Mandibuzz.

    Ampharos can definitely beat it. Too bad Mandibuzz is actually faster most of the time?? It can easily just stall it out - everything but Modest LO and Specs fail to KO Mandibuzz, and Modest LO still can fail to KO. Ampharos can't sub up thanks to Mandibuzz finding it easy to run Taunt. And this is all with no Special Defense investment. A pokemon with 115 base attack super effective STAB special attack on a pokemon with no special defense invest can be stalled out. Ampharos can certainly run max speed, which sucks on it, helps it outspeed... min Manidbuzz. That's it. It can't even manage to outspeed min Golbat without running a nature that compromises its power and turning the advantage to Mandibuzz.

    "On the offensive side, Carracosta, Electabuzz, Electrode, and Articuno can handle Mandibuzz rather reliably." Lmao, have you actually tried this stuff, Modest Electabuzz just about manages to 2hko, Carracosta is so easily stalled out, there's no use offering any physical attack to actually beat Mandibuzz. Electrode is laughably weak but at least fast enough to 2hko and not have to worry about mandi roosting before the hit. Articuno has to run full offensive to even 2hko it, which honestly is really detrimental to it given its really awful movepool. Yeah you're right though that Golbat is a full stop to it.

    I think y'all are strongly underrating Mandibuzz' bulk, which is weird. You know Cresselia could be 2hkoed by like 3 pokemon in LU too? It was still broken as hell. The thing about Mandibuzz is with absolutely minimal support from next to anything, it can way too easily stall out even the things that are supposed to be its "counters". Have y'all seen Mandibuzz on a stall team? It's kind of beyond ridiculous. It's all well running calcs but 99% of this metagame can't come in on Mandibuzz and threaten it without significant risk to themselves. I honestly want y'all to go out and try running Mandibuzz in yr teams and see just how much of a pretty much guaranteed win it is against almost all teams, in a very similar (but obviously lower-tier) way to Cresselia in LU.
     
  9. KennedyXOXO

    KennedyXOXO Spriter

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    aurist, the only thing differentiating mandi and cress are the typing and recovery. mandibuzz would be ou if not for these................things........like, srsly, roost makes her dark for a turn (oh, circle throw me, throh)shes vulnerable to status, (audino, please) and shes really not as overcentralized as you think..................... she has common weakness, and shes easy to kill.
     
  10. Halsey

    Halsey Wildstar

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    Dark / Flying is arguably better than Psychic. Mandibuzz also gets Roost which is better than Moonlight.

    However Mandibuzz has virtually no offensive presences and it lacks CM, which is what makes Cresselia a decent Pokemon.

    btw people if you are actually worried about super speedy Ampharos just invest 136 Spe EVs and problem solved. It still walls the crap it needs to wall and it can Roost stall one of its "counters"
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2012
  11. VuvuzelaΒzz

    VuvuzelaΒzz •Sage

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    If Mandi outspeeds and roosts Amphy can nail it with Focus blast. Obviously the accuracy isn't great, but if I were using Mandi I just wouldn't stay in on Ampharos unless I really had no answers to it.

    It's much easier to prepare for Mandibuzz in NEU than it was to prepare for Cresselia in LU, simply due to the fact that Cress had a multitude of very effective sets, while Mandi has one, with a slash on a couple moveslots.It can't support it's team with double screens, it's weak to SR despite being immune to spikes(which aren't even prominent in NEU since Roselia left) and it can't sweep. It also becomes weak to one of the most common attacking types in the tier when it recovers. I personally have not faced it on a stall team thus far in the new meta, but if you think it's broken, why is it so? Is it becuse of the fact it forces switches which wreck havoc in combination with hazards, or is it because of it's actual defensive qualities and because it's so easy to cover it's weaknesses? If the latter is true, then it might be broken. If not I can't see it as being broken.

    On a related note, I've found the best way to play around it to be pivoting to an offensive check after switching in something that couldn't care less about what move Mandi uses. If you don't let Mandi Toxic your answer to it on the way in, you should have a decent shot at beating it at some point in the match.
     
  12. KennedyXOXO

    KennedyXOXO Spriter

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    and her brave bird does like, 30% on a super effective to something, at most, and in a metagame where status is so easy to inflict, (audino, please, and NFES) she's likely to get toxic'd and out stalled.
     
  13. Roku

    Roku sup nerds

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    Status is certainly easy to inflict in the tier. But when using Mandibuzz, she will be doing most of the inflicting. Audino and most NFEs that try and inflict status are outsped by Mandi and then she can taunt them, stopping their status shenanigans. Also, her BB does significant chunks of damage with a SE hit. Here are some worst case scenarios, and they really won't be running all this defense in most all cases.

    0Atk Mandibuzz (Neutral) Brave Bird vs 252HP/252Def Serperior (+Def): 37% - 45% (134 - 162 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
    0Atk Mandibuzz (Neutral) Brave Bird vs 252HP/252Def Simisage (+Def): 49% - 58% (174 - 206 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 24% chance to 2HKO.
    0Atk Mandibuzz (Neutral) Brave Bird vs 252HP/252Def Eviolite Monferno (+Def): 39% - 46% (132 - 156 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
    0Atk Mandibuzz (Neutral) Brave Bird vs 252HP/252Def Butterfree (+Def): 61% - 72% (198 - 234 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    [/HIDE]

    So I wouldn't discount that Brave Bird at all against Bug/Fighting/Grass types.
     
  14. KennedyXOXO

    KennedyXOXO Spriter

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    Honestly, are we going to ban Audino cuz she's bulky? Cuz she can survive a +6 e speed from a linoone with 252 def evs? Like, there have to be broken Pokemon to keep other pokemon in check. mandibuzz is one of these. we might as well just ban all threats, because this is just bullcrap when we could be going after an ACTUAL threat like QUAGSIRE, who can set up +6 attack, defense, and sp def up on you. ya. thats it. i think i contradicted myself there, but still, its nonsense. mandibuzz isnt as bulky as quagsire can be with an amnesia/curse boost.
     
  15. Kyrk

    Kyrk KACAW

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    Audino can actually get 1HKO'd by super-effective attacks unlike Mandibuzz. Mandibuzz has more resistances, and it has a movepool beyond Toxic that can actually do something to your opponents.

    Quagsire is 4x weak to grass moves, and there are plenty of good grass pokes or pokes with grass moves in the tier. Unless you manage to let it set up all of those Curses, Stockpiles, and/or Amnesias, it's not much of a problem. Mandibuzz can also toxic-stall, taunt, and/or whirlwind Quagsire out; it can survive a +6 Waterfall from an Adamant max Atk Quagsire, which you more than likely will not run:

    252Atk +6 Unaware Quagsire (+Atk) Waterfall vs 252HP/252Def Mandibuzz (+Def): 70% - 83% (298 - 352 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    Yeah, Quagsire is not that threatening. Also you should know that your Quagsire set gets walled by other Quagsires with Unaware, in which they can just toxic stall you unless you carry rest.

    What makes Mandibuzz broken is that it's literally impossible to 1hko it without boosting a super-effective attack to +1 minimum, as well as being able to stall out the majority of the tier, even with the decreased usage of Spikes with Roselia gone. However here's the only flaw in a bunch of these arguments - Mandibuzz can't run both a pure physical and special wall. That still doesn't mean it can easily be KO'd on the other side though, even with no investment.
     
  16. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    Discussion is moving fairly slowly on this, there will be a decision made on Manidbuzz within the next couple days, I encourage people who haven't offered their opinions on Mandibuzz to post them ASAP, thanks
     
  17. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    Ok, time to make the decision.

    After talking with Avatar Roku, we both agree that Mandibuzz's sheer bulk, ability to stall almost all of the tier out and utility within the metagame makes it simply too powerful for NEU. Therefore, Mandibuzz is now banned from Wifi NEU. Thanks for taking part in the discussion, everyone.
     
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