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[BW2] The Fire/Water/Grass Core

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by Tyki, Oct 13, 2012.

  1. Tyki

    Tyki Change

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    As a lot of good LU players know, the FWG core is one of the easiest ways to build a successful LU team. In this thread, I'm going to make an effort to explain it in detail and how to use one.

    Let's start by going over why to use a FWG core.

    FWG cores are good in the fact that they lure in pokemon that another pokemon can handle. A water pokemon lures in a grass type, which lures in a fire type, which lures in a water type. If you predict correctly, you get a huge advantage over the opponent and either force a switch, letting you set up, or kill a poke. The core offers great defensive coverage, as well as offensive coverage.

    Now I'll go over the viable pokemon to use for each of the types.

    Fire:

    [​IMG]
    Moltres is the Fire type pokemon you will see in I'd say 90% of LU FWG cores, and for good reason. 125 Special Attack is nothing to laugh at, especially in LU, and backed by a base 90 Speed makes this thing a huge offensive threat. It's move pool is great with STAB FIre Blast and Hurricane, which can be backed by a Hidden Power of your choice if wanted. Roost makes the 4x Stealth Rock weakness not as bad, and pairs nicely with Substitute. For a choice set, U-Turn is used for switch initiative. The 90/90/85 defensive states make it not that squishy, though the typing makes Water, Rock and Electric scary for the Fire Bird.

    Here are three example sets for Moltres:
    Moltres @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Fire Blast
    - Hurricane
    - Hidden Power [Grass]
    - U-turn

    Moltres @ Life Orb
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Fire Blast
    - Hurricane
    - Substitute
    - Roost

    Moltres @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 248 HP / 16 SDef / 244 Spd
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Substitute
    - Roost
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Flamethrower


    [​IMG]
    Entei, another Fire type legendary trio member is also a threat in the LU metagame. It's base 115 HP and Attack make the dog look like a tank, though it also has a good 100 base speed. Access to Flare Blitz, Extreme Speed and Stone Edge make it a very popular Choice Bander, though it also pulls off a Sub CM set pretty well with 115/85/75 base defenses and a usable 90 Special Attack. The one downside of Entei is that mono Fire is a bad defensive typing, with a 2x Stealth Rock weakness.

    Here are two example sets for Entei:
    Entei @ Choice Band
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Flare Blitz
    - Extremespeed
    - Hidden Power [Grass]
    - Stone Edge

    Entei @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 136 HP / 120 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Substitute
    - Calm Mind
    - Hidden Power [Grass]
    - Flamethrower

    [​IMG]
    Typhlosion, the 2nd gen Fire Starter. The entire reason to use Typhlosion over any other Fire type in LU is Choiced Eruption. Base 100 Speed and 109 Special Attack make a STAB 150 base power move HURT even without Specs. Scarf lets it outspend most pokes, while Specs makes it OHKO/2HKO most of the tier. Blaze makes the penalty of Eruption not quite as bad, as it lets Fire Blast be even more powerful. Focus Blast and Hidden Power round up the coverage. Again, mono Fire is a bad type, especially with mediocre 78/78/85 defenses.

    Here is an example Typhlosion set:
    Typhlosion @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Blaze
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Eruption
    - Fire Blast
    - Hidden Power [Grass]
    - Focus Blast

    From TheSexiOne:
    [​IMG]
    Magmortar, the fully-evolved form of Magmar. The main reason to use Magmortar is because of coverage - it's got absolutely everything you want. It also has really decent attacking stats, with base 95 Atk and 125 SAtk nothing to sniff at. Common moves you will see on special Magmortar include Fire Blast, Hidden Power Ice and Thunderbolt, which can beat bulky Waters. While it doesn't have premier Speed, it can still outrun base 80's, which isn't bad at all. Sadly, Magmortar has bad mono-Fire typing and rather thin defenses. It can run various items and sets, like LO Mixed or Scarf Special. Flame Body isn't a half-bad ability either, with a 30% burn chance.

    Here is an example Magmortar set:
    Magmortar (M) @ Expert Belt
    Trait: Flame Body
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Thunderbolt
    - Fire Blast
    - Focus Blast

    Other Fire Type Options:
    Emboar
    Charizard

    Water:

    [​IMG]
    Slowking is the #1 most used LU pokemon for a reason. 95 HP, 100 Special Attack and 110 Special Defense make the Hippo a great tank, with an ok 80 Defense. An amazing move pool in Scald/Slack Off/Thunder Wave/Fire Blast for defensive sets and Fire Blast/Surf/Psyshock/Grass Knot for offensive sets make it very unpredictable, and very versatile. The addition of Regenerator makes it live very long as well. The one downside is the snail-like 30 base speed, though Trick Room makes it one of the fastest pokemon. Water/Psychic isn't the best typing, though it has some good resistances.

    Here are two example sets for Slowking:
    Slowking @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 212 HP / 252 SAtk / 44 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Surf
    - Fire Blast
    - Grass Knot
    - Psyshock

    Slowking @ Leftovers
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 248 HP / 144 Def / 116 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Surf
    - Fire Blast
    - Grass Knot
    - Psyshock

    [​IMG]
    Lanturn at first looks not that special. The only good stat is has is a huge 125 HP, with the next best stats being Special Attack/Defense at 76. This is easily remedied by having one of the best typing in the game. Water/Electric is great both offensively and defensively, and along with Volt Absorb, Lanturn walls a large portion of the tier. It has two options of being a support with Heal Bell or Thunder Wave/Scald, and can also use RestTalk. Volt Switch gives switch initiative as well.

    Here are two example sets for Lanturn:
    Lanturn @ Leftovers
    Trait: Volt Absorb
    EVs: 40 HP / 252 Def / 216 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Scald
    - Volt Switch
    - Heal Bell
    - Protect

    Lanturn @ Leftovers
    Trait: Volt Absorb
    EVs: 40 HP / 252 Def / 216 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Scald
    - Thunderbolt
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk

    [​IMG]
    Kabutops is the best spinner in LU. It beats the most amount of Ghosts 1v1, has good STAB, priority and Stealth Rock. It's base 115 attack will dent anything that doesn't resist its hits, and the 105 defense is good enough to take a hit. 80 base speed isn't favorable, though it's remedied by Weak Armor and Aqua Jet. It has good set up in Swords Dance, Foresight for Ghosts, and also gets Superpower.

    Here are two example sets for Kabutops:
    Kabutops @ Life Orb
    Trait: Weak Armor
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Waterfall
    - Stone Edge
    - Rapid Spin
    - Swords Dance

    Kabutops @ Life Orb
    Trait: Weak Armor
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Swords Dance
    - Waterfall
    - Stone Edge
    - Aqua Jet

    Other Water Type Options:
    Omastar
    Feraligatr
    Ludicolo

    Grass:

    [​IMG]
    Tangrowth is great. It has 100/125/50 Defenses and 100/110/50 Offenses. It has a good move pool including Sleep Powder, Leech Seed, Giga Drain, Power Whip, Focus Blast and Earthquake. The downside is that mono Grass is a terrible type. It has a great ability in Regenerator, though the speed makes it not as good as t could be offensively. Thankfully, it is low enough that it can be used in Trick Room very well.

    Here are two example sets for Tangrowth:
    Tangrowth @ Leftovers
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Atk
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Power Whip
    - Earthquake
    - Sleep Powder
    - Leech Seed

    Tangrowth @ Life Orb
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 208 HP / 252 SAtk / 48 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Leaf Storm
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Focus Blast
    - Sleep Powder

    [​IMG]
    Sceptile is an amazing poke in LU. With 85/105/120 Offenses, access to set up in the form of Swords Dance and Unburden, and a move pool to use it, Sceptile can go either Special or Physical. Specialy, it has Giga Drain, Leaf Storm, Focus Blast and Hidden Power (it has Dragon Pulse too), and Physically it has Leaf Blade, Acrobatics, Earthquake, Brick Break and Rock Slide. It's speed makes it a very good user of Choice Specs, though it can abuse Unburden with Acrobatics and a Flying Gem. Like Tangrowth, its downside is the mono Grass typing, and the fragile defenses.

    Here are two example sets for Sceptile:
    Sceptile @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Overgrow
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Leaf Storm
    - Giga Drain
    - Focus Blast
    - Hidden Power [Rock]

    Sceptile @ Flying Gem
    Trait: Unburden
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Swords Dance
    - Acrobatics
    - Leaf Blade
    - Earthquake

    [​IMG]
    Sawsbuck may be NU on Smogon, though that doesn't stop it from being a huge powerhouse. Grass Normal is an interesting dual type, and with 100/60/95 offenses, it can sweep very well. It has access to Swords Dance and Agility to set up, or pass to an ally and can run a Choice band very well. It's move pool is good, with Double Edge, Horn Leech, Earthquake, Wild Charge, Megahorn and Jump Kick. It also has Sap Sipper, making it immune to Grass type attacks and get extra attack from them.

    Here are two example sets for Sawsbuck:
    Sawsbuck @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sap Sipper
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Horn Leech
    - Swords Dance
    - Agility
    - Baton Pass

    Sawsbuck @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sap Sipper
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Swords Dance
    - Horn Leech
    - Double Edge
    - Nature Power

    Other Grass Type Options:
    Rotom-C
    Lilligant
    Ferroseed
    Ludicolo

    So, the question is, how do you use the core. Well, to answer that you'll just have to try any combination of pokes that you want to. You can run any three you want, as long as your other 3 compliment any holes left in the team. You can run Feraligatr, Lilligant and Typhlosion on the same team, though the other 3 pokes better be able to take hits.

    An example core I like to use is Moltres, Lanturn, Sawsbuck. Lanturn is really bulky and is only weak to Ground and Grass. Moltres, being Flying type, is immune to Ground, and 4x resists grass. Sawsbuck absorbs Grass and uses it to its advantage. If Moltres or Sawsbuck do switch into the correct move, they can set up or hit a poke really hard on the switch depending on which set you use.

    Feel free to post your opinions on the LU FWG core idea and your personal favorite cores.

    Thanks to Luck>Skill for editing this.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 22, 2016
  2. Emperor PPP

    Emperor PPP PKMNPurePower

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    Personally I think you could add a bulkier Moltres build in somewhere, seeing as its the usable fire type with any bulk
    Something like this:
    Moltres @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 248 HP / 16 SDef / 244 Spd
    Calm/ Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Substitute
    - Roost
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Flamethrower/ U-turn[/HIDE]

    Or physically defensive and toxic or whatever
    Flamethrower as random STAB, could use hurricane for random confusion chance but low accuracy

    Anyway good thread, Tyki - Glad to see life in the subforum
     
  3. Tyki

    Tyki Change

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    These are just examples of the sets. For real sets, you can just use the Wiki.

    Though feel free to share creative sets here if you want!
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2012
  4. ZoroDark

    ZoroDark i know everything

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    Camerupt needs more love as bulky Fire type... He's bulky on both sides on the spectrum, can set up SR somewhat reliable, and has roar.
     
  5. twofivefive

    twofivefive don't call it a comeback

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    Rotom-C deserves more than a footnote :o

    It's an excellent scarfer but can just as viably run a bulky support set with Pain Split and Will-o-Wisp.

    Kabutops also can run a Physically defensive spread to cockblock most Entei. Foresight and Rapid Spin give it an awesome niche as a spinner and it's great when used to max potential.
     
  6. ZoroDark

    ZoroDark i know everything

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    Not really a need to run Foresight + Rapid Spin, if you can demolish every ghost with SD.
     
  7. meeps

    meeps Well-Known Member

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    This is true, it has a very good chance to OHKO Spiritomb and Dusknoir after SR with a SD boost using Stone Edge with Adamant Nature. SD Kabutops can destroy stall teams lacking Tangrowth or Ferroseed. The SD Kabutops you have listed as a Calm Nature, should be fixed. Weak Armor is the best ability for it as it allows it to take advantage of stuff like Flare Blitz Entei.

    The FWG core I use on my LU team that peaked #1 and #2 on the ladder features Slowking, Tangrowth, and Entei. Slowking and Tangrowth is one of the best defensive cores in LU. STAB Bug attacks from Pokes such as Galvantula, Escavalier, and Accelgor hurt the the two badly. Entei with its Fire typing can take the hits due to great natural bulk and resistance to Bug. Entei's Choice Banded Flare Blitz can hit most of the tier very hard, and can revenge kill frail Pokes at low HP.
     
  8. Tyki

    Tyki Change

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    Write me a Rotom-C thing (or for any other poke not listed) and I'll put it in.
     
  9. Emperor PPP

    Emperor PPP PKMNPurePower

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    Pretty sure standard Entei runs HP Grass as filler
     
  10. twofivefive

    twofivefive don't call it a comeback

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    Haven't seen an HP Grass Entei in a while, mostly I see Iron Head or Toxic Entei (even saw a Bulldoze one before)

    I'll get a Rotom-C set here soon.
     
  11. 49.

    49. Active Member

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    Eww, Iron Head Entei ;-;

    Anywho, I'm a huge fan of FWG cores in RU, the lack of Dragon-types really helps their sheer usefulness, and they generally allow me to build moderately successful teams in a few minutes :3 But seriously, cores like these are practically the backbone of the metagame, with such potent 'mons as Slowking, Moltres, etc. accessible to the tier. Also Magmortar, Gatr, Oma, and Liligant should totally get more than "honorable mentions" (I don't think I've used the others enough to speak for them), they all have their own niches to take advantage of :<
     
  12. Tyki

    Tyki Change

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    I wanted to get this out as soon as possible, so that meant omitting certain pokemon. If you want to write up anything in the style I did, be my guest, and I'll add it to the OP.
     
  13. Xclus|Mewmewzapdos

    Xclus|Mewmewzapdos Retreated to Showdown ^^

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    I use a Magmortar/Lanturn/Abomasnow with quite a lot of success recently, while Lanturn and Magmortar tank fire type attacks for Abomasnow and Lanturn tanks flying type moves for Aboma. Abaomasnow can tank ground types move for Magmortar and Lanturn in return. Abomasnow need more love...... no one seem to realise we can run it fine in LU with soundproof
     
  14. meeps

    meeps Well-Known Member

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    Abomasnow is probably more of an offensive threat than defensive threat, with access to Wood Hammer and Ice Beam, it can destroy one of the most defensive cores in LU of Tangrowth and Slowking. Soundproof is a really nice ability as it allows Abomasnow to deal with some of the bugs buzzing around in the tier. Galvantula and BROKENMOTH can't do much to it, Accelgor can beat it assuming the opponent knows Bug Buzz doesn't affect Abomasnow.
     
  15. Xclus|Mewmewzapdos

    Xclus|Mewmewzapdos Retreated to Showdown ^^

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    Yeah, i first chose Aboma cuz of soundproof and its anti meta properties in LU. ABOMASNOW NEED MORE LOVE
    Usage Stats from last month # 197 - Abomasnow (0.36 %), srsly wtf
    Also, with the help of vital spirit from Magmortar and Abomasnow's typing itself, it can cockblocks every grass type from sleeping your pokemons while having double insurance against strong grass type moves. I found that they are both great powerhouse while having some very useful immunities and resistances.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2012
  16. New Breed

    New Breed ka$h

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    This is the only Kabutops set worth using outside of rain, other than Band.
    Kabutops (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Weak Armor
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Swords Dance
    - Aqua Jet
    - Stone Edge
    - Rapid Spin[/HIDE]

    Adamant nature is needed to score an OHKO on Rotom with Aqua Jet at +2, Stone Edge destroys Pokemon such as Sceptile, Rotom and Lilligant who switch in predicting you to SD or spin. Trust me this is THE set to use.
     
  17. Dr. Fomantis Toboggan

    Dr. Fomantis Toboggan man in the couch

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    Swords Dance isn't necessary. Rock Slide+Aqua Jet beats Rotom already and 2 Stone Edges is the same as a +2 Stone Edge so I wouldn't say that's the only set one should use. If one has no Stealth Rocker then Kabutops does an fine job of setting that up. I'd say Life Orb is also replaceable with Leftovers. I've been flip-flopping on that though.
    EDIT: maybe Rocky Helmet would be helpful, just a thought. Pretty sure no one runs Entei without HP Grass. Don't make Kabutops defensive, that's just turning it into a Sandslash with bad defensive typing.
     
  18. Tyki

    Tyki Change

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    With the recent drops, Houndoom is also a good Fire type for the core. Too lazy to write a new thing for it, but just an update.
     
  19. Emperor PPP

    Emperor PPP PKMNPurePower

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    And Qwilfish has always been a good water type
     
  20. Tyki

    Tyki Change

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    Qwilfish doesn't exist. Shhhhhh.
     
  21. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    +2 Bisharp is a nightmare to offensive FWG cores imo.
     
  22. two sides of one coin

    two sides of one coin sick of all her shit

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    Magmortar is amazing with Expert Belt, in my opinion. I'm in love with it, and I think it needs to be up here. So I wrote a shitty little piece about it which will probably require serious editing, but hey. It doesn't have images either ;D

    Magmortar, the fully-evolved form of Magmar. The main reason to use Magmortar is because of coverage - it's got absolutely everything you want. It also has really decent attacking stats, with base 95 Atk and 125 SAtk nothing to sniff at. Common moves you will see on special Magmortar include Fire Blast, Hidden Power Ice and Thunderbolt, which can beat bulky Waters. While it doesn't have premier Speed, it can still outrun base 80's, which isn't bad at all. Sadly, Magmortar has bad mono-Fire typing and rather thin defenses. It can run various items and sets, like LO Mixed or Scarf Special. Flame Body isn't a half-bad ability either, with a 30% burn chance.

    Here is an example Magmortar set:
    Magmortar (M) @ Expert Belt
    Trait: Flame Body
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Thunderbolt
    - Fire Blast
    - Focus Blast[/HIDE]
     
  23. iris

    iris Member

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    So does +2 anything really. Whats your point? It's not like it can switch in with impunity on any of the FWG core
     
  24. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    My point is that if you pair a FWG core with a reliable wall to stop sweepers that otherwise defeat your FWG core, with a free turn under their belt. Then it will make it nearly impossible to break your team unless the opponent maintains momentum through double switches and getting hazards up early game. (Which'll be nearly impossible to do against a good player throughout a whole game.)
    Otherwise if anything can manage to get momentum off your team and you lack a counter to it, it's pretty much GG. (momentum or a free turn, depending if they're using an offensive team or a team based around a sweeper/heavy hitter
    and also if they get it through switches or after a pokemon dies.)

    If you look at FWG cores, the only real walls are: Slowking(specially defensive), Tangrowth(physically defensive), Moltres (bulky sets I guess, can be either specially or physically defenisve), and Qwilfish (intimidate with max physical defensive investment makes it a decent physical wall.)
    Being that most non-stall teams don't carry all of these (slowking and tangrowth are seen a lot on standard teams, qwilfish is seen as a spike-stacker on offensive teams, and moltres is seen a ton but, usally offensive ones.) some sweepers will break through and a team will need to have a check/coutner to sweepers that threaten their cores.
    What I'm getting at is a more offensive FWG core with bulkier supportthroughout the other three members sounds like the ideal team in this metagame.

    probably should've just said offensive FWG core with bulkier support looks good in the metagame because my explanation of everything is crap, sorry if this makes little to no sense.[/HIDE]
     
  25. Tyki

    Tyki Change

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    Ferroseed is also bulky, although it is set-up fodder. I also like using a bulky Rotom-C with WoW, though with its many weaknesses, it isn't amazing. Omastar and Kabutops can also be bulky, but again with bad typing.
     
  26. Emperor PPP

    Emperor PPP PKMNPurePower

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    Swanna is a nice water type on certain teams
    Although we could go on and list every Grass and water type below UU easily
    Fire types are a bit harder than that though...
     
  27. Dr. Fomantis Toboggan

    Dr. Fomantis Toboggan man in the couch

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    @Finchinator I don't think they have a problem with Bisharp, and if you're talking about defensive ones, I think every team is going to have a check. An fgw specific one would be Poliwrath.
    @Emperor PPP I tried Swanna because of that nice offensive typing and I was underwhelmed. It was just to weak for me, the sub roost set worked against some offensive teams though.
    I've never really found a reason to use Magmortar over Moltres. It's got some stuff going for it, but not coverage anymore, since Moltres's Hurricane does so much.
     
  28. The Dark Master

    The Dark Master Member

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    The defensive Moltres' nature shouldn't lower SAtk, as you have no Physical move.

    I'd also like to recommend SubPetaya as a set for Sceptile:
    Sceptile (F) @ Petaya Berry
    Trait: Unburden
    EVs: 12 HP / 252 SAtk / 244 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Substitute
    - Giga Drain
    - Focus Blast
    - Hidden Power [Rock][/HIDE]
     
  29. Dasdardly

    Dasdardly Uknown Bird

    Joined:
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    PO Trainer Name:
    Dasdardly, Eureka
    Man, Swanna is sooo good. With that boss ass 98 base speed and pretty sexy neutral coverage mmmmm. I've just been using Sub/Roost @LO, but I bet you could use LO Rain Dance or some other cool set. Maybe even a straight bulky Sub/Roost set with Toxic (so you can actually beat Slowking?) Though Moltres probably does a lot of the same stuff better; I really love Swanna's speed.
     
  30. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    A set I found works well

    Swanna @ Life Orb
    Ability: Hydration
    EVs: 4 Def, 252 SAtk, 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd -Atk)
    Rain Dance
    Surf
    Hurricane
    Roost

    Simple, set up rain and sweep. 98 speed is respectable in LU, and since its STAB moves get such good coverage (off the top of my head, I can't think of an LU Pokemon that resists both) it can run Roost as its final option. Roost also means it doesn't need a Rapid Spinner. EVs and item are self explanatory.