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[BW2] LC General Discussion

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by Weavile, Oct 13, 2012.

  1. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    [​IMG]Little Cup General Discussion[​IMG]

    I've found we as a community lack a thread for general discussion of the LC metagame, while we have the thread for the suspects we don't have a general casual discussions thread. So that's what this is.

    In terms of discussion in here you can go with whatever you want as long as it's LC related, strategies, suspects, ideas for tournaments or ladder challenges. Anything goes in terms of LC topics. However I will lay a few rules and if you break them seriously I can and will hand you an infraction for it. However if you don't blatantly break the few simple rules I won't.

    1) Follow the forum rules of course, that includes no serious flaming or insulting of others.
    2) Don't be condescending and arrogant in your ideas. If someone says something's good and you disagree, be smart about it, don't just tell them it sucks and they're stupid. Tell them why you think their idea is bad and then back up what you say.
    3) Keep the discussion Little Cup. Little Cup encompasses just about everything that it makes sense to encompass. Saying "x player is bad" is not included.

    Hopefully with some effort and luck this can do some good for us as a community.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2013
  2. Trak

    Trak Member

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    I say we perk up our ears for LC UU, seems like a good tier to me since LC OU is just hyper offense at the moment. If we can get a few players(five maybe) we can play a few matches and experiment then post a thread on here to fix it up and stuff.

    Anyways as far as strategies goes... Put on a life orb krow and sweep. Only thing that commonly shares(read: cant reliably outspeed to check) its speed tier gets owned by suckerpunch.

    On a more strategic note.

    sandshrew/diglet/mienfoo. You are all familiar with double rush, this is a more one two punch take on it. Double rush in it of itself is pretty deadly unless they have multiple checks to it. In that case they become fighting weak (mienfoo can weaken and knock off(after which HJK 2HKOs) bronzor, kill porygon, knock off foongus which lets +2 sandshrew OHKO, knock off and lure slowpoke etc and check snover with some sdef investment it can switch in to blizzard and dodge a 2HKO) they become fighting weak, mienfoo can also use knock off and neuter some of those checks or just ko them.

    Diglet breaks through many common bulky pokemon with only quakeslide, 2hkoing everything that isnt baltoy, bronzor, duskull, koffing or pure grass, missdrevous dies to shadowclaw, with only a life orb it can 2HKO lileep and hippopatos which paves the way for sandshrew, add in some hazards or a status and that 2HKO is garanteed if they switch into you(which they will because they are physical walls or physically bulky and diglet runs physical) so sandshrews checks are weakened or outright dead. This thing can also just clean up after sandshrew who will weaken or kill their bronzor which is generally diglets only check in most teams.

    And then we have sandshrew, with it's checks weakened or gone it just wreaks and laughs in the face of your priority, yeah, im looking at your pathetic fake out, mienfoo. And suckerpunch etc.

    I usually throw in some toxic and burn spreaders which along with sand damage score alot of KOes on would be checks.

    Scraggy+dweeble/shelmet is combo, mienfoo doesnt check HJK or ZHB scraggy anymore with two layers of spikes or one and stealth rock anymore. Not that losing 30% of the time to ZHB is a good sucess rate. drain punch mienfoo automatically loses to HJK and ZHB though since it cant OHKO unless scraggy runs -def nature and mienfoo is max attack adamant and HJK and ZHB 2HKO even with the drain punch recovery. Wobby also used a double boost scraggy (DD+bulk up) which could be viable, at +1 defense it takes even high jump kick from mienfoo and +2 HJK probably OHKOs back.

    Im interested to hear about some strategies around countering life orb murkow, beyond 'use priority'.
     
  3. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    Chinchou successfully counters LO Krow and can KO back with discharge (RestTalk Chinchou). Stealth Rock cripples it, so it pretty much kills itself. It doesn't ko half your team, if it does then you are stupid or murkrow weak. Priority or anything scarfed can either where it down or kill it. So no you can't just put LO Krow and sweep. I used Bronzor along with Murkrow and Mienfoo to beat double rushers and they work pretty good vs brainless double rush. Scraggy has a lot of checks and a decent amount of counters but people don't use them because they aren't creative.
     
  4. (Lisalo.)

    (Lisalo.) Member

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    Trak, change LO for evio. Possibly CM too. And this is the wrong place, go for the cores one.

    Also, seeing as I am here, in the Lc channel it says we are going to vote Scrafty b4 murkrow. please tell me you're kidding.
     
  5. Dasdardly

    Dasdardly Uknown Bird

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    Hi. LC UU is better than OU anyway.

    Currently LC OU (because one month cycle):
    Mienfoo 43.5615 4294
    Misdreavus 38.5195 3797
    Staryu 25.8894 2552
    Murkrow 24.1749 2383
    Scraggy 23.9821 2364
    Drilbur 20.888 2059
    Chinchou 20.817 2052
    Porygon 19.1735 1890
    Hippopotas 18.0779 1782
    Snover 17.4591 1721
    Bronzor 16.5461 1631
    Ferroseed 16.0185 1579
    Abra 15.1461 1493
    Lileep 13.6041 1341
    Magnemite 12.3258 1215
    Diglett 11.9708 1180
    Houndour 11.849 1168
    Slowpoke 11.1491 1099
    Foongus 10.8549 1070
    Meditite 10.5201 1037
    Frillish 10.1549 1001
    Larvesta 9.90126 976
    Dwebble 8.94765 882
    Stunky 7.82159 771
    Rufflet 7.82159 771
    Croagunk 6.50277 641
    Gastly 6.42162 633
    Munchlax 6.09698 601
    Timburr 6.01583 593
    Ponyta 5.90423 582
    Meowth 5.29555 522
    Sandshrew 5.06222 499
    Natu 4.99121 492
    Shellder 4.3318 427
    Drifloon 4.12891 407
    LC BL: Axew, Poliwag

    Budew / Shellos / Growlithe meta the strongest :3.
     
  6. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    Scraggy can cause more damage then a Murkrow if you haven't noticed. Scraggy's typing makes it ***neutral to many thing and it's bulk allows it to set up almost vs any pokemon.

    ArteEdit: Tirtouga should be LC OU, it's a really good sweeper and a good wall. Please don't let the usage fool you.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2012
  7. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Scraggy has one immunity :v
    Turtle is really damn good.
    LC UU is all well and good however, someone would need to basically remake it. It's had nothing because it just died. People didn't want to play it after about a week, not even its regulars.
    I'd like to get some ideas around for ladder challenges in future. Need to see what next month's'll be.
     
  8. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    Why don't you let the winner decide?
     
  9. viamage

    viamage That one guy

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    I wouldn't mind remaking LC UU and I'm sure trak would help me.

    Next challenge, no regen, volturn, and only 2 eviolites per team :D
     
  10. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Because this is prone to extremely stupid ideas.
    Among other undesired complications.

    Not saying my opinion is the be all and end all of it. But something discussed with some of the community and refined is better than one person's idea.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2012
  11. Trak

    Trak Member

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    scarfers cant check murkrow to well, suckerpunch owns them. And priority users cant switch in, also, murkrow doesnt die to recoil after one or two attacks...

    also "they work pretty good vs brainless double rush." you're using the fact you beat what you call idiots as proof double rush can be beaten... Thats rather stupid on your part. mienfoo and murkrow are beaten by life orb sandshrew which lives a fake out and suckerpunc combo before KOing them, then it gets bronzor(which im going to asume you managed to keep at absolutely full health, thats unlikely since you probably havent realised) to 50% or below, leaving drillbur to finish up. And im sure eviolite drillbur can survive a suckerpunch+fake out.
     
  12. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    I never called anyone brainless I said using double rush is brainless as in anyone can run it K. I never said The people running double rush are stupid lrn2read. Most Drilbur are LO and yeah my bronzor is at full health most of the time since really the rest of the team can cover my weaknesses. I used recycle bronzor switch in on the earthquake or sword dance then toxic next turn while it attacks me with X-scissor or Shadow Claw I recover health with oran berry and I stall with recycle that's how Drilbur dies. If my Bronzor is still alive then what I do is toxic it then outstall it. If my bronzor dies and Sandshrew is still alive and it's LO I can fake out Sandshrew and cause as much damage as possible. Then Sucker Punch it Murkrow.

    Quit making assumptions.
     
  13. Wobbyble

    Wobbyble Member

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    I normally +4-6 on Bronzor before attacking it... And if I see you Recycle Im not going to sit there and keep X Scissoring you. On my bulky Drilbur set, Psychic does no more than 20%, and EQ less than 30%. Survives CS Snovers Blizzard, and OHKOs back with X Scissors. 4HKOd by Porygons Tri Attack, 3HKOd by Abras Psychic. If you swap in something like Shroomish/Foongus, he can +4 and OHKO with EQ/X Scissors. Have fun trying to Spore shit when Double Rush is paired with Natu. I cant be arsed to post calcs, but heres the core if anyone cares [secret]Sandshrew @ Eviolite
    Trait: Sand Rush
    Level: 5
    EVs: 116 HP / 236 Atk / 76 Def / 76 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    IVs: 30 SAtk
    - Earthquake
    - Rock Slide
    - Shadow Claw
    - Swords Dance

    Natu @ Eviolite
    Trait: Magic Bounce
    Level: 5
    EVs: 200 HP / 80 Def / 40 SAtk / 160 SDef
    Calm Nature
    - Hidden Power [Flying]
    - U-turn
    - Roost
    - Wish

    Drilbur @ Eviolite
    Trait: Sand Rush
    Level: 5
    EVs: 80 HP / 236 Atk / 36 Def / 156 SDef
    Careful Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Shadow Claw
    - X-Scissor
    - Swords Dance[/secret]
    Bulky sets on double rush and Natu pretty much fuck over all its common checks and counters, like Abra, Porygon, Slowpoke, Shroomish, Bronzor, Murkrow, priority in general, Snover, and almost anything else I can think of. The only times Ive truely gotten wrecked when using dual rush is by things like LO Snover, Eviolite Snover, and a random manual Rain/Sun inducer, but I learned to keep Hippo alive till end game after that. Every other time I lost it was from pure legit skill (or hax). It was never from getting counter teamed. In general, I honestly feel like dual rush is broken now after having used it more. Snover doesnt counter Sand as Scarf is too easily trapped and other variants are too slow. Physically bulky things like Shroomish, Slowpoke, and Porygon lack the power to actually do anything to Drilbur. Priority doesnt do shit to Sandshrew. Or even Drilbur for that matter tbh.

    On another note, LO Murkrow = CB Terrakion with a shit ton of recoil. If you do a bit of pivoting, you can get around it easily. A bit more of forcing it out and pivoting, and SR damage, it should be dead. Its an amazing wall breaker, but unless you play poorly it shouldnt get more than 2 kills at the very very most. With Roost, it loses coverage and gets checked far easier. If Murkrow has issues, its not within its individual sets, but as a poke as a whole, being impossible to counter and even hard to check.
     
  14. viamage

    viamage That one guy

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    I would just like to point out at this point that blizzard scarf porygon does a clean 2HKO potential OHKO on either rusher with eviolite , neither of them have the strength to beat said pory without a boost either with the eviolite, and you can also use eviolite porygon which can tank the boosted hit and then swing with an even stronger blizzard. Not to mention that the eviolite version can recover and take out the other rusher as well. of course even with Ice beam my technological wonder has an edge on them. SE damage(2x)>STAB(1.5). Oh and i calc'd that w/o analytic (totes should be legal if we have bbird rufflet)
    However! I will concede that double rush does have the overall advantage over my pory. Although I can go toe-to-toe with sand rush and one of my porys
     
  15. Wobbyble

    Wobbyble Member

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    I would like to point out that Blizzard has a 70% accuracy, and it won't be OHKOing shit on Drilbur if I'm not OHKOd by Snovers Blizzard.
    The only time my Drilbur has ever lost 1 vs 1 against a Porygon is because or Tri Attack hax in over 150 games sooo. And Analytic is unreleased, and without Trace Sandstorm wears Porygon down, kthnx.
     
  16. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    Yo people who go on about Brave Bird rufflet: there are a lot of pokemon allowed any move regardless of the level they learn it at. This is how LC functions. If we truly didn't allow late-level moves this would be a tier of Tackle + Leer shit with Tutor/TM moves. Y'all can quit going on about it now. Like, it's more or less impossible to EV train LC pokemon in-game without them going above level 5, shall we not allow that either? Shall we not allow Spore Shroomish, Drain Punch Mienfoo, etc too?
     
  17. Wobbyble

    Wobbyble Member

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    Rufflet is one of the few special cases because it's a male only pokemon... All other Pokemon can obtain level up only moves that they get at level 6 or higher through regular breeding.
    And I don't see anyone actually complaining about Bbird Rufflet. Its a cool addition to the metagame, although it's annoying how it practically 1HKOs the whole tier with Band bar like Slowpoke, Hippo, Bronzor, and some other physical walls, I must admit xD
     
  18. Dasdardly

    Dasdardly Uknown Bird

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    Since BW it's been (tedious) but very possible with the introduction of the wings. Also, Shroomish gets spore as soon as it hatches if both parents knew it, same with Mienfoo (or you could use the BW2 tutor (!)) I don't really care about it, but the fact of the matter is that it's actually impossible to get a Rufflet with Brave Bird at level 5.
     
  19. Mylo Xyloto

    Mylo Xyloto if your world falls apart, i'd start a riot

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    So since the retesting of previous banned pokemon and the release of bw2, what are your thoughts on stall? is it viable? what threatens stall? Do you guys still encounter stall team on the ladder?
     
  20. The Dude

    The Dude The Mannis

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    Yeah I agree with Aurist, I see LC with mechanics where Pokemon are automatically set to a level, in this case Level 5. So you can EV train your Pokemon and make it learn late level moves and then when playing, they go to Level 5.
     
  21. Mylo Xyloto

    Mylo Xyloto if your world falls apart, i'd start a riot

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    ~smogon
     
  22. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    That smogon page is slightly out of date, but anyway honestly what Dude24 said, I see LC as a tier where you raise your pokemon in whatever way and then their level is set to 5. It stands more to reason than following every little piece of minutiae to limit the tier.

    Anyway back to discussing the tier:

    I think stall is legit in LC, just hard to build so noone uses it cos it's easier to spam mienchou with filler. A few extra threats to stall came with BW2, especially stuff like mixed Murkrow now being usable, but the extent of stuff that is viable in LC stall makes it fairly easy to defensively cover threats. Full stall is a lot harder to build and most stall will usually have at least one offensive pokemon (Misdreavus is a good example there) or will likely be screwed over by the offensive presence of everything else - because even with Eviolite there's a lot of stuff that can't be tanked/walled easily. I refer to my RMT as an example of this stuff ~
     
  23. Wobbyble

    Wobbyble Member

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    If that's how your logic works, Aurist, then Speed Boost Torchic should be allowed in LC. As with things like Solar Power Charmander, Chlorophyll Bulbasaur, etc.

    Are you going to make that happen too?
     
  24. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    That is a completely different system of allowance and no we're not.
    Strictly speaking no it shouldn't be there, but as I've said before, if the powers that be have no desire to change it then we've gotta live with it, I like having it around personally (also before you say it PS has it too)
     
  25. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Sorry for the double posting, I'd like to propose an idea for the next ladder challenge and get some reactions. Rather than something like no Eviolite, which hits any LC team-building process hard as hell I would propose a challenge that restricts the use of any boosting move or ability for speed/attack/special attack. So no Dragon Dance/Swords Dance/Hone Claws/Curse/Nasty Plot/Calm Mind etc, no Swift Swim, Sand Rush, Chlorophyll, Weak Armour, Moxie etc. Things such as choice items and Life Orb are OK.
     
  26. Archerknight

    Archerknight Legends

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    It seems quite easy, most LC teams don't even use boosting moves. I could just use a simple regen core for that.
     
  27. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    True, perhaps I think more of it because I play offensive all the time. I've had a bunch of ideas for this tbh. That was one that came to mind first.
    - There's ofc no Eviolite.
    - Choice Only (stealing from LU)
    - No pokes or abilities from gen 5 (stealing from NU)
    - No top 10 Pokés (Mienfoo, Missy, Murkrow, Drilbur, Chinchou, Scraggy, Hippo, Porygon, Abra, Lileep)
    - No residual damage, nothing that can induce a burn or poison effect (including Scald, Sludge Bomb or Flamethrower etc), nothing that induces damaging weather (if you use sun and your opponent sends in Dry Skin Croagunk it's fine ofc) (so no Snover or Hippo). No Rocky Helmet or Rough Skin. Confusion inducing is OK since not residual, no Hazards. Probably ban Magic Bounce Natu from this, since it kinda cheats the clause a little. (I like this one personally)
     
  28. Archerknight

    Archerknight Legends

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    I like the idea of the Throwback challenge, and No Residual Damage. :)
     
  29. Wobbyble

    Wobbyble Member

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    Not fond of the last option. Other ones seem cool. All choice, no eviolite, and absolutely no top 10 seems too hard to pull off efficiently, considering you'll have to run extremely gimmicky stuff to deal with things like Murkrow... Something like only 2 eviolites, only 2 top 10 pokes, etc seems a bit more fair.

    Three moveslot, 3 top 10 pokes max, and 3 eviolites seems like an appropiate challenge. "The 3 Challenge"
     
  30. MuzaK

    MuzaK New Member

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    I prefer the top 10 challenge.
    **
     
  31. Archerknight

    Archerknight Legends

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    The problem with top 10 imo is that it's very similar to the Shortlist challenge.
     
  32. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Aye, that it is, and that's kinda one of the reasons it's not my first choice.
    Personally I think the final one is the right balance of interesting, fun and challenging.
     
  33. viamage

    viamage That one guy

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    My only problem with no top ten is the lack of my favorite pokemon

    edit: despite that i think it's a fairly solid idea
     
  34. Trak

    Trak Member

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    the last one basically means no fire moves, fire blast, flamethrower, heat wave all have a burn rate... even ember... also no electric moves

    I like the no eviolite idea, but sand rush needs to be taken out for that, even bronzor loses with no eviolite... and nothing at all stands a chance against double rush. Heck, scraggy with it's resistance and lack of weakness to alot of priority moves liturally forces you to run croagunk+timbur due to their priority attacks being needed to KO together. The banlist for no eviolite needs to be heavily revised, murkrow and double rush will wreak.

    choice, no gen 5 and no status inducing moves, especially the status based one, are bad ideas imo...
     
  35. viamage

    viamage That one guy

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    except that paralysis isn't technically damage, just the inhibition of damage
     
  36. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    What I think could be cool is some kind of Mono- challenge (-type, -color, -gen etc) ~
     
  37. Trak

    Trak Member

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    Has anyone looked into wooper and riolu? they have great niches this meta.
    Riolu with copycat(or me first if it gets that) can revenge kill missy, krow, drillbur and other stuff nicely, maybe even end game sweep with hjk and then copycat or something.
    Wooper walls nasty plot missy, drillbur, sandshrew and stuff with a respective EV spread, sadly it falls short of murkrow. It also resists stealth rock and has recovery. And with water absorb and physical bulk it puts a stop to volt turners, being imune to water and electric(chinchou is the only volt switcher that is common) and having good enough physical bulk to take care of mienfoo and larvesta. I'd use it but i have some phobia or something of quad weaknesses.

    And to bad it falls short of walling scraggy, if only game freak graced it with wall worthy defenses.

    viash: nvm, i thought one of the suggestions involved no status inducing moves
     
  38. Wobbyble

    Wobbyble Member

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    wooper can almost hard counter scraggy with counter and unaware just saying...
     
  39. (Lisalo.)

    (Lisalo.) Member

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    For the challenge thing, a team swap one would be fun (we are given a random player to design a team for and a random player designs ours)
     
  40. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    That wouldn't be a good idea since they other player may put like 5 crappy pokes with movesets that don't work imo. How about random pokes though, like each person gets a different poke, I forgot what it was called, but I use to do it in wifi, you pick random pokes from your PC I think on Action Replay, then your opponent picks a number and the number was a pokemon in the box. You do this for all your team.

    Arte Edit: It's called Roulette battle also the top ten doesn't have to be gimmicky and some pokes that aren't top 10 actually do a good job, all you have to do is be creative, you can still use magnemite, timburr, croagunk, tirtouga, frillish ferroseed, bronzor, etc
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2012