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Discussion in 'Theme Development' started by Oh So Shoddy, Oct 25, 2012.

  1. Oh So Shoddy

    Oh So Shoddy Devil's Advocate

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    It's been suggested numerous times that the default theme undergoes the same level of scrutiny all the other themes are subject to. So while I doubt there are that many changes that could, or even should be applied to this theme, we might as well have an official thread to allow for ideas and suggestions.

    I'm posting here in the critique forum since that's all we'll be doing with this theme. It won't be removed from play.

    The pastebin

    Direct Code
    {
    "name": "default",
    "summary": "Default mafia theme, the people of our fine village are being threatened by the mafia. .... ",
    "sides": [
    {
    "side": "mafia",
    "translation": "Mafia"
    },
    {
    "side": "mafia1",
    "translation": "French Canadian Mafia"
    },
    {
    "side": "mafia2",
    "translation": "Italian Mafia"
    },
    {
    "side": "village",
    "translation": "Good people"
    },
    {
    "side": "werewolf",
    "translation": "WereWolf"
    },
    {
    "side": "godfather",
    "translation": "Godfather"
    },
    {
    "side": "baka",
    "translation": "Conspirator"
    }
    ],
    "roles": [
    {
    "role": "villager",
    "translation": "Villager",
    "side": "village",
    "help": "You dont have any special commands during the night! Vote to remove people in the day!",
    "actions": {}
    },
    {
    "role": "inspector",
    "translation": "Inspector",
    "side": "village",
    "help": "Type /Inspect [name] to find his/her identity!",
    "actions": {
    "night": {
    "inspect": {
    "target": "AnyButSelf",
    "common": "Self",
    "priority": 30
    }
    }
    }
    },
    {
    "role": "bodyguard",
    "translation": "Bodyguard",
    "side": "village",
    "help": "Type /Protect [name] to protect someone!",
    "actions": {
    "night": {
    "protect": {
    "target": "AnyButSelf",
    "common": "Role",
    "priority": 5,
    "broadcast": "role"
    }
    },
    "startup": "role-reveal"
    }
    },
    {
    "role": "mafia",
    "translation": "Mafia",
    "side": "mafia",
    "help": "Type /Kill [name] to kill someone!",
    "actions": {
    "night": {
    "kill": {
    "target": "AnyButTeam",
    "common": "Team",
    "priority": 11,
    "broadcast": "team"
    }
    },
    "startup": "team-reveal"
    }
    },
    {
    "role": "werewolf",
    "translation": "WereWolf",
    "side": "werewolf",
    "help": "Type /Kill [name] to kill someone!",
    "actions": {
    "night": {
    "kill": {
    "target": "AnyButSelf",
    "common": "Self",
    "priority": 10
    }
    },
    "distract": {
    "mode": "ChangeTarget",
    "hookermsg": "You tried to distract the Werewolf (what an idea, srsly), you were ravishly devoured, yum!",
    "msg": "The ~Distracter~ came to you last night! You devoured her instead!"
    },
    "avoidHax": [
    "kill"
    ]
    }
    },
    {
    "role": "hooker",
    "translation": "Pretty Lady",
    "side": "village",
    "help": "Type /Distract [name] to distract someone! Vote to remove people in the day!",
    "actions": {
    "night": {
    "distract": {
    "target": "AnyButSelf",
    "common": "Self",
    "priority": 1
    }
    }
    }
    },
    {
    "role": "mayor",
    "translation": "Mayor",
    "side": "village",
    "help": "You dont have any special commands during the night! Vote to remove people in the day! (your vote counts as 2)",
    "actions": {
    "vote": 2
    }
    },
    {
    "role": "spy",
    "translation": "Spy",
    "side": "village",
    "help": "You can find out who is going to get killed next!(no command for this ability) Vote to remove people in the day!",
    "actions": {
    "hax": {
    "kill": {
    "revealTeam": 0.33,
    "revealPlayer": 0.1
    }
    }
    }
    },
    {
    "role": "godfather",
    "translation": "Godfather",
    "side": "godfather",
    "help": "Type /Kill [name] to kill someone! You can kill 2 targets, Type /kill [name2] again to select your second target!",
    "actions": {
    "night": {
    "kill": {
    "target": "AnyButSelf",
    "common": "Self",
    "priority": 20,
    "limit": 2
    }
    },
    "distract": {
    "mode": "ChangeTarget",
    "hookermsg": "You tried to seduce the Godfather... you were killed instead!",
    "msg": "The ~Distracter~ came to you last night! You killed her instead!"
    },
    "avoidHax": [
    "kill"
    ]
    }
    },
    {
    "role": "vigilante",
    "translation": "Vigilante",
    "side": "village",
    "help": "Type /Kill [name] to kill someone!(dont kill the good people!)",
    "actions": {
    "night": {
    "kill": {
    "target": "AnyButSelf",
    "common": "Self",
    "priority": 19
    }
    }
    }
    },
    {
    "role": "mafia1",
    "translation": "French Canadian Mafia",
    "side": "mafia1",
    "help": "Type /Kill [name] to kill someone!",
    "actions": {
    "night": {
    "kill": {
    "target": "AnyButTeam",
    "common": "Team",
    "priority": 12,
    "broadcast": "team"
    }
    },
    "startup": "team-reveal"
    }
    },
    {
    "role": "mafia2",
    "translation": "Italian Mafia",
    "side": "mafia2",
    "help": "Type /Kill [name] to kill someone!",
    "actions": {
    "night": {
    "kill": {
    "target": "AnyButTeam",
    "common": "Team",
    "priority": 11,
    "broadcast": "team"
    }
    },
    "startup": "team-reveal"
    }
    },
    {
    "role": "conspirator1",
    "translation": "French Canadian Conspirator",
    "side": "mafia1",
    "winningSides": ["village"],
    "help": "You dont have any special commands during the night! You are sided French Canadian Mafia. Vote to remove people in the day!",
    "actions": {
    "inspect": {
    "revealAs": "villager"
    },
    "startup": "team-reveal"
    }
    },
    {
    "role": "conspirator2",
    "translation": "Italian Conspirator",
    "side": "mafia2",
    "winningSides": ["village"],
    "help": "You dont have any special commands during the night! You are sided Italian Mafia. Vote to remove people in the day!",
    "actions": {
    "inspect": {
    "revealAs": "villager"
    },
    "startup": "team-reveal"
    }
    },
    {
    "role": "mafiaboss1",
    "translation": "Don French Canadian Mafia",
    "side": "mafia1",
    "help": "Type /Kill [name] to kill someone! You can't be distracted!",
    "actions": {
    "night": {
    "kill": {
    "target": "AnyButTeam",
    "common": "Team",
    "priority": 12,
    "broadcast": "team"
    }
    },
    "distract": {
    "mode": "ignore",
    "msg": "The Pretty Lady came to you last night, but she had no effect on you!"
    },
    "startup": "team-reveal"
    }
    },
    {
    "role": "mafiaboss2",
    "translation": "Don Italian Mafia",
    "side": "mafia2",
    "help": "Type /Kill [name] to kill someone! You can't be distracted!",
    "actions": {
    "night": {
    "kill": {
    "target": "AnyButTeam",
    "common": "Team",
    "priority": 11,
    "broadcast": "team"
    }
    },
    "distract": {
    "mode": "ignore",
    "msg": "The Pretty Lady came to you last night, but she had no effect on you!"
    },
    "startup": "team-reveal"
    }
    },
    {
    "role": "samurai",
    "translation": "Samurai",
    "side": "village",
    "help": "Type /Kill [name] during the day phase to kill someone! You will be revealed when you kill, so make wise choices! You are allied with the Good people.",
    "actions": {
    "daykill": "evade",
    "standby": {
    "kill": {
    "target": "AnyButSelf",
    "msg": "You can kill now using /kill [name] :",
    "killmsg": "~Self~ pulls out a sword and strikes it through ~Target~'s chest!"
    }
    }
    }
    },
    {
    "role": "miller",
    "translation": "Miller",
    "side": "village",
    "help": "You dont have any special commands during the night! Vote to remove people in the day! Oh, and insp sees you as Mafia",
    "actions": {
    "inspect": {
    "revealAs": "mafia"
    }
    }
    },
    {
    "role": "truemiller",
    "translation": "Miller",
    "side": "village",
    "help": "You dont have any special commands during the night! Vote to remove people in the day!",
    "actions": {
    "inspect": {
    "revealAs": "mafia"
    },
    "lynch": {
    "revealAs": "mafia"
    },
    "startup": {
    "revealAs": "villager"
    },
    "onlist": "mafia"
    }
    },
    {
    "role": "miller1",
    "translation": "Miller",
    "side": "village",
    "help": "You dont have any special commands during the night! Vote to remove people in the day!",
    "actions": {
    "inspect": {
    "revealAs": "mafia1"
    },
    "lynch": {
    "revealAs": "mafia1"
    },
    "startup": {
    "revealAs": "villager"
    },
    "onlist": "mafia2"
    }
    },
    {
    "role": "miller2",
    "translation": "Miller",
    "side": "village",
    "help": "You dont have any special commands during the night! Vote to remove people in the day!",
    "actions": {
    "inspect": {
    "revealAs": "mafia2"
    },
    "lynch": {
    "revealAs": "mafia2"
    },
    "startup": {
    "revealAs": "villager"
    },
    "onlist": "mafia1"
    }
    },
    {
    "role": "bomb",
    "translation": "Bomb",
    "side": "village",
    "help": "You are sided with the village! If anyone tries to kill you, you kill back!",
    "actions": {
    "kill": {
    "mode": "killattacker"
    }
    }
    },
    {
    "role": "baka",
    "translation": "Conspirator",
    "side": "baka",
    "help": "You win regardless of who is living at the end, except the wolf! Type /kill to kill someone, because you're above the law!",
    "winningSides": ["village", "mafia", "mafia1", "mafia2", "godfather"],
    "actions": {
    "night": {
    "kill": {
    "target": "AnyButTeam",
    "common": "Team",
    "priority": 25,
    "broadcast": "team"
    }
    },
    "lynch": {
    "revealAs": "baka"
    },
    "avoidHax": [
    "kill"
    ],
    "onlist": "villager"
    }
    }
    ],
    "roles1": [
    "bodyguard",
    "mafia",
    "inspector",
    "werewolf",
    "hooker",
    "villager",
    "truemiller",
    "villager",
    "mafia",
    "baka",
    "mayor"
    ],
    "roles2": [
    "bodyguard",
    "mafia1",
    "mafia1",
    "inspector",
    "hooker",
    "villager",
    "mafia2",
    "mafia2",
    "villager",
    "baka",
    "villager",
    "mayor",
    "villager",
    "spy",
    "villager",
    "miller1",
    "miller2",
    "mafiaboss1",
    "villager",
    "vigilante",
    "villager",
    "godfather",
    "mafiaboss2",
    "samurai",
    "villager",
    "villager",
    "werewolf",
    "mafia1",
    "mafia2",
    "bodyguard",
    "villager",
    "mayor",
    "hooker",
    "mafia1",
    "mafia2",
    "spy",
    "villager",
    "werewolf",
    "vigilante",
    "villager",
    "villager"
    ],
    "villageCantLoseRoles": [
    "mayor",
    "vigilante",
    "samurai"
    ]
    }[/HIDE]
     
  2. Li Q. Assir

    Li Q. Assir Mindblower

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    Maybe moving it to the approved themes section? default is approved. it may be a more suitable place for this thread.

    Ok, a suggestion: re-name FCM for Japanese Mafia. I don't know any French Canadian Mafia (someone correct me if I am wrong), like Cosa Nostra or Camorra, that are actually Italian Mafias. I suggested Japanese because of Yakuza.
     
  3. Jalmont

    Jalmont nothere

    Joined:
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    Conspirator is a bad role. Giving it a kill makes it even worse. It's giving way too much power to a harmless neutral. It punishes good play from either the mafia or village in that the consp simply has to say "I want x team to win." You can play a perfect game of mafia and you will still lose if the consp decides not to ally with you. Honestly, the consp adds an absurd amount of luck to the game putting it almost on par with almost other luck-based games that have been rejected. Even if it doesn't have a kill, it doesn't add anything to the game.

    For instance this game:
    (20:03:14) ***************************************************************************************
    (20:03:14) Times Up! :
    (20:03:14) The Roles have been Decided! :
    (20:03:14) ±Game: You are a Inspector!
    (20:03:14) ±Game: Type /Inspect [name] to find his/her identity!
    (20:03:14) Current Roles: Bodyguard, Inspector, Mafia, Mafia, Mafia, Pretty Lady, Villager, Villager, Villager, WereWolf.
    (20:03:14) Current Players: Alula the Rose, Hellfire Bowsa, Kikkoman, Li Q. Assir, NightmareSlash, Odin, Rehx, ScorchedSwords, YuuchyHongroy, jalmontafk.
    (20:03:14) Current Team: Bodyguard, Inspector, Miller, Pretty Lady, Villager, Villager
    (20:03:14) Time: Night
    (20:03:14) Make your moves, you only have 30 seconds! :
    (20:03:14) ***************************************************************************************
    (20:03:14) Kikkoman: ooo yeeeeah
    (20:03:14) Alula the Rose: XD
    (20:03:18) NightmareSlash: Villlllllly
    (20:03:19) Hellfire Bowsa: Villy? Really?
    (20:03:21) NightmareSlash: Ugh.
    (20:03:21) ScorchedSwords: awooo
    (20:03:22) ScorchedSwords: WW here
    (20:03:22) NightmareSlash: gtg.
    (20:03:25) Kikkoman: villy
    (20:03:25) Hellfire Bowsa: Btw, keep in mind we have a Miller.
    (20:03:25) ScorchedSwords: BG on me
    (20:03:25) NightmareSlash: li q slay me
    (20:03:26) ScorchedSwords: prs pm
    (20:03:26) jalmontafk: im inspect
    (20:03:29) ScorchedSwords: etc
    (20:03:29) ±Game: You have chosen to inspect ScorchedSwords!
    (20:03:29) Li Q. Assir: BGhere, prs pm
    (20:03:33) t3 the third: >jalmontafk
    (20:03:34) jalmontafk: .btw
    (20:03:35) t3 the third: >plays
    (20:03:35) NightmareSlash: li q slay me i got to go
    (20:03:36) t3 the third: :v
    (20:03:36) ±Kill: NightmareSlash (Villager) was slain by Li Q. Assir!
    (20:03:40) t3 the third: hi jalmont :o
    (20:03:46) jalmontafk: ^_^
    (20:03:46) ***************************************************************************************
    (20:03:46) Times Up! :
    (20:03:46) ±Kill: Hellfire Bowsa (Miller) died!
    (20:03:46) ±Kill: Odin (Bodyguard) died!
    (20:03:46) ±Info: ScorchedSwords is the WereWolf!!
    (20:03:46) ***************************************************************************************
    (20:03:46) Current Roles: Inspector, Mafia, Mafia, Pretty Lady, Villager, Villager, WereWolf.
    (20:03:46) Current Players: Alula the Rose, Kikkoman, Li Q. Assir, Rehx, ScorchedSwords, YuuchyHongroy, jalmontafk.
    (20:03:46) Current Team: Inspector, Pretty Lady, Villager
    (20:03:46) Time: Day
    (20:03:46) You have 30 seconds to debate who are the bad guys! :
    (20:03:47) ***************************************************************************************
    (20:03:51) ScorchedSwords: awooo
    (20:03:55) jalmontafk: we should probably
    (20:03:55) ScorchedSwords: got BG
    (20:03:57) YuuchyHongroy: Oh dang.
    (20:03:58) Alula the Rose: BG down
    (20:03:59) Alula the Rose: D:
    (20:04:02) jalmontafk: rand scorchedswords
    (20:04:04) ScorchedSwords: ^
    (20:04:05) jalmontafk: for claiming ww
    (20:04:07) ScorchedSwords: as always
    (20:04:14) jalmontafk: we are actaully randing ScorchedSwords
    (20:04:16) Alula the Rose: why would someone rationally claim WW
    (20:04:18) ***************************************************************************************
    (20:04:18) Current Roles: Inspector, Mafia, Mafia, Pretty Lady, Villager, Villager, WereWolf.
    (20:04:18) Current Players: Alula the Rose, Kikkoman, Li Q. Assir, Rehx, ScorchedSwords, YuuchyHongroy, jalmontafk.
    (20:04:18) Current Team: Inspector, Pretty Lady, Villager
    (20:04:18) Time: Day
    (20:04:18) It's time to vote someone off, type /Vote [name], you only have 30 seconds! :
    (20:04:18) ***************************************************************************************
    (20:04:18) jalmontafk: don't get confused
    (20:04:22) Alula the Rose: i think it is a joke
    (20:04:22) ±Game:jalmontafk voted for ScorchedSwords!
    (20:04:25) jalmontafk: nope it isn't
    (20:04:27) ±Game:ScorchedSwords voted for jalmontafk!
    (20:04:29) ScorchedSwords: ...
    (20:04:30) jalmontafk: i inspected him
    (20:04:31) ±Game:YuuchyHongroy voted for ScorchedSwords!
    (20:04:32) ±Game:Alula the Rose voted for ScorchedSwords!
    (20:04:33) jalmontafk: vote him
    (20:04:37) ±Game:Kikkoman voted for ScorchedSwords!
    (20:04:40) Kikkoman: ...
    (20:04:41) ScorchedSwords: ;-;
    (20:04:43) ±Game:Li Q. Assir voted for ScorchedSwords!
    (20:04:44) Kikkoman: i think we're making a mistake
    (20:04:48) ScorchedSwords: nah
    (20:04:50) jalmontafk: you'd be wrong
    (20:04:51) Kikkoman: he always says he's ww
    (20:04:52) ***************************************************************************************
    (20:04:52) Times Up! :
    (20:04:52) ±Game: ScorchedSwords (WereWolf) was removed from the game!
    (20:04:52) ±Game: The Mafia (YuuchyHongroy, Kikkoman and Alula the Rose) wins!
    (20:04:52) ±Game: The Good people (jalmontafk, Li Q. Assir and Rehx) lose!
    (20:04:52) ***************************************************************************************

    In other words, the village had no chance after the first night, unless I happened to rand a mafian. This happened due to no fault of mine or anyone else's but because of the conspirator. If the consp was not there and was a villager instead, the game would've had the potential to come down to the wire.

    The underlying point I am trying to make is that the conspirator holds a game-changing amount of power that kills games in that normal players have no opportunity to counter it.
     
  4. NAVIDAD PIRATE

    NAVIDAD PIRATE THE PLEASURE OF BEING CUMMED INSIDE

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    PO Trainer Name:
    MeowMix
    There was a lot of noise made when the conspirator was given a kill, which sort of died down into nothing for some reason. I have to ask the same question as Jalmont: what does the conspirator add to a game of mafia? To be completely honest, I'm not a fan of any role that allows you to win with all sides, since it basically makes that role into a "just claim to win" kind of role which requires basically no skill to utilize.

    On the theme itself: the conspirator shouldn't even be in roles1. The "miller", "bomb", and country aligned conspirator roles aren't even in use; the miller one should be eliminated entirely since "truemiller" is the same thing, and bomb should probably be thrown late into roles2 for larger games.
     
  5. Oh So Shoddy

    Oh So Shoddy Devil's Advocate

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    I agree here. I think that was the reason a kill was added in the first place to remove the uselessness of the conspirator; claiming and then hanging around until the end of the game. That being said, Unless a role is winning with a different side from the one it started the game on by way of a convert of some sort (Waddle Doo in SSBB), then it's only adding a negative aspect to the game.
     
  6. Beast

    Beast I do what I want

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    In small games I don't see the point to someone who wins with any side. Larger games on the other hand I believe are a different story. I feel like the conspirator adds suspense to the theme. If/When they claim the person has to think to themselves whether or not to trust them. They have no reason to help a certain side so they can backstab any time they want. Many games the conspirator is killed regardless of claiming, normally by the mafia since they are a killing role that is helping the village. A down point to Conspirator is that most of the time it is just and extra kill/PR for the village to utilize.
     
  7. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    From what I remember from the time Conspirator was added, it was meant to "spice Default a little". I don't think it's a bad idea, but I dislike the way it was implemented for Default, both because it has the power to work alone (make the "can win with everyone" part pointless) and because it can appear at almost any game size. If anything, I'd suggest Conspirator should only appear at 20+ players game (or even later), or as we once discussed in this thread, change its power.

    BTW, conspirators are, basically, a role which takes part in more than one team. Unless they have some really specific purpose (like Pen in Weapons, which is a role meant to confuse and it's only a conspirator role so every team can get confused), I think conspirators that win with (almost) everyone should be avoided so they actually need to play.

    Totally agreed. In default, if Conspirator is revealed and I'm sided with village, I usually use the Conspirator ("help us or get lynched"). At one game I even revealed a mafia by having Conspirator claim his kill (his target was a FCM and killed Conspirator).
     
  8. Demonic Cake

    Demonic Cake The cake is not a lie...

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    Perhaps give it a (self)-protect, so that it can protect itself or anyone it likes? Not AS game-changing as kill, I don't think...
     
  9. Narshen

    Narshen Dragon Lord

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    I, for one, am seconding Li's suggestion for the replacement of the French-Canadian Mafia with the Yakuza.

    It's purely a style issue but I think it'd be a lot cooler to have them in. Only thing is, the Don probably shouldn't be called a Don, haha. The term used for the top guy is, afaik, oyabun - a term meaning family boss. For the sake of not confusing new players, I would propose the name be "Yakuza Boss," it leaves virtually no room for confusion.
     
  10. TheUnknownOne

    TheUnknownOne Member

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    Wrong: truemiller is for mafia, not mafia1 or mafia2
     
  11. Fegelein

    Fegelein The Mechanic

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    Also agreeing that the FCM should be renamed, to either the Yakuza or the Triad (Chinese Mafia)
    Also, the mafia I feel need a buff of sorts. I'll think about (perhaps a one time extra kill, like Elements? Not too complicated?)
     
  12. Trosh

    Trosh Lolarising since 2011.

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    To be honest, I don't think the mafia needs buffing. Giving a one-time kill might not seem difficult, but Default was designed to be bland and easy. Leave the extra commands to other themes. Default has always been the pinnacle of balance and skill in mafia games and I see no reason for any changes there barring the removal of the unbalancing trolly conspirator. Still think the conspirator needs to go altogether because IT'S DEFAULT!
    Default should remain a default game in all of its defaulty defaultness, it's in the name! Don't overcomplicate things when that's unnecessary.

    When it comes to the Yakuza, I would be all for it but there's a Yakuza role on EpicMafia who isn't just a mafia but has a suiciding convert on another role. That might cause slight confusion, but I am still mostly for the change since it's such a minor nitpick. Then again, why change what's already working?
     
  13. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    Default is not exactly balanced. I think everyone already saw some games where village failed amazingly hard, yet they won.
     
  14. Trosh

    Trosh Lolarising since 2011.

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    The village wins because it's larger rather than because it makes correct decisions. Still, I see your point. Just because it's the pinnacle doesn't mean the rest of the building is tall, so to speak, and there will always be balance issues, but I don't even see too many minor ones.

    And then I would still prefer to resort to adding more villagers (Default, again, is designed to be bland) rather than giving extra power to the mafs. Adding a triple mafia group for larger games, making prs appear later and instead adding villies (and maybe a stalker), and giving extra power to the werewolf to keep him in the game are changes I would support if done properly.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
  15. Li Q. Assir

    Li Q. Assir Mindblower

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    I didn't mean exactly renaming French Canadian Mafia for Yakuza, but simply for Japanese. No real names. If this was the situation, why not renaming Italian Mafia for Cosa Nostra or the Godfather for Don Corleone? I think that it should be simply Good People x Japanese Mafia x Italian Mafia x Godfather x Werewolf and a Conspirator. No names at all.

    I agree with you when you say no Don Yakuza Japanese. Japanese Boss sounds fine for me.

    ------------------------

    Another thing. Many people are talking about the conspirator. I think that it is too much giving him a kill. What about giving him a kill (or a protect - not self... or a distract, I liked these ideas) every other night? This way, the conspirator doesn't control the game too much, but adds some spice to default.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
  16. fitzy

    fitzy Heart of the cards Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Really disagree with the fcm name change. Its a 10 year old irc joke that I would show you a link of the explanation but I have lost it. Not to mention confusing people for no reason.
     
  17. two sides of one coin

    two sides of one coin sick of all her shit

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    French Canadian Mafia...Quebec? idk

    Anyway, people keep saying "oh !1! mmm !1! consp is baad let's change him !1!" without providing anything for Consp to do. You can't give it PR power, too powerful, kill is apparently "pointless", when it was villy it was ridiculously up, and without it default seemed bland. If you are going to abuse Consp, do suggest a change for him.
     
  18. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    I posted this link earlier regarding this issue, but I just noticed the link was almost hidden in my message.

    I keep my point from that thread: Conspirator with /stalk wouldn't change the theme so much as it's not default anymore, and the player that get that role would have to think (instead of randkilling) and work with other people to be effective. It could even make it more likely for players to play as a double-agent (which was an awesome way of playing as Conspirator, but basically impossible since the kill can be verified by everyone).
     
  19. Jalmont

    Jalmont nothere

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    A change has been suggested; remove it all together. If we wanted to buff the mafia or make the theme balanced or spice up default then we should give a PL to the mafias. Even if we keep the consp with a weaker role, it still ruins games and it still ruins good play.

    The name change is silly and unnecessary imo.
     
  20. NAVIDAD PIRATE

    NAVIDAD PIRATE THE PLEASURE OF BEING CUMMED INSIDE

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    "role": "miller",
    "translation": "Miller",
    "side": "village",
    "help": "You dont have any special commands during the night! Vote to remove people in the day! Oh, and insp sees you as Mafia",
    "actions": {
    "inspect": {
    "revealAs": "mafia"
    }
    }
    },
    {
    "role": "truemiller",
    "translation": "Miller",
    "side": "village",
    "help": "You dont have any special commands during the night! Vote to remove people in the day!",
    "actions": {
    "inspect": {
    "revealAs": "mafia"
    },
    "lynch": {
    "revealAs": "mafia"
    },
    "startup": {
    "revealAs": "villager"
    },
    "onlist": "mafia"[/HIDE]

    unless I'm reading this incorrectly (which I could be) miller and truemiller inspect as the same thing, but truemiller lynches and is seen as mafia whereas miller does not (also miller knows he's a miller, which is the dumbest thing ever). also it's a moot point since "miller" isn't even in use and should be removed anyway.

    on the mafia name change: no need to change flavour, really.

    on the conspirator: get rid of it.

    on the mafia getting a buff of some sort: I would agree to this, actually. the hooker for mafia idea is good, but then it gets to the point where both mafia have a hooker, which makes things a bit antsy. I personally kind of like giving the mafia one role that inspects as a villager, in order to lessen the reliance on the inspector. or it could be a combination of both: IM could get the mole, FCM could get the PL. or something idk, I'm just spitballing at this point.
     
  21. Katia

    Katia Haxy Haxy!

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    I like the stalk for the conspirator. It gives them a chance to find and side with the mafia. Normally the conspirator sides with the village so they already know who to pm.

    Of course I also wouldn't complain if it was removed from the game entirely.
     
  22. TheUnknownOne

    TheUnknownOne Member

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    miller was the miller role before lynch and startup:revealAs existed
     
  23. Zzyzx Road

    Zzyzx Road Member

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    I'm in favor of bringing IC and FCC back. That is the general meaning of Conspirator, a Mafia that doesn't kill - moreover, it's good to have extra votes on your side, and that would fix balance.

    As for the Conspirator role itself, I'm not a fan of it at all - you can pick up the side you want to side yourself with or simply troll all sides. I don't think it's fun for the person who gets the role, or even the people this person decided to help/complicate.

    I also don't mind unused roles being let in the script, with the exception of the original Miller - we're not going to use it again at all
     
  24. Demonic Cake

    Demonic Cake The cake is not a lie...

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    The thing with that, is it becomes basically a doomed role if its team die. Like Judge and Yuna used to be before they got two votes. /hates doomed roles on Mafia teams
    Perhaps let it self-convert and become a (0 vote) villager if its team are dead? But then people might use it before and give away their team...
     
  25. Jalmont

    Jalmont nothere

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    So if nearly everyone agrees that consp should be removed / given a new role then can we get some sort of executive decision on this? (suspect test anyone lol?)
     
  26. Tesla Elesa

    Tesla Elesa Almost Quality

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    Yeah, we probably shouldn't change default too much, lest it not be default anymore.

    I am in favour of giving the conspirator a stalk instead though. No need for another win condition.

    And I believe that original mafia-aligned conspirators should be re-implemented. A mafia villy adds variety without changing the feel of the game. They should serve nicely to fix the massive village side.

    EDIT: Damn ninjas.
     
  27. GreenWater10

    GreenWater10 GreenWater10

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    The summary should be changed.
    The default mafia theme, where the people of our fine village are being threatened by the mafia...
    But who ever reads the summary anyways?

    I think you should make the conspirator the ww, which kills after mafia. This is because in games of 5 players, village has no shot at winning unless the mafia and ww don't kill. If the conspirator replaces the ww, then the village may have a shot at either the conspirator helping the village, or mafia. I'm not sure if the conspirator should kill distractors. Maybe ignore them? There's only 1 distractor in the game, and only 2 roles that kill her, and another 2 that ignore her.
    Godfather should ignore inspects, if that's possible, and both Dons and millers should also do the same, so that they stay hidden from the inspector and the inspector can't say they are bad.
     
  28. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

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    It's possible, but would make no sense. Inspector would simply know that if the inspection failed, it's the Godfather.
    Also, miller avoiding inspection makes even less sense. Miller's purpose is to trick Inspectors.
     
  29. Li Q. Assir

    Li Q. Assir Mindblower

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    If mafia kills the WW or the WW kills the mafia, this will be a big help for the villgae. It is almost impossible for a village (from any theme) to win without dat x-fire.
    Also no, because if the consp doesn't kill and the mafia hit anyone but the consp, this is auto win for mafia. Same for a situation that mafia doesn't kill and the consp hits anyone but the mafia. Actually, the consp will win in any case if they don't die n1 at default with 5 people.

    For me it's fine how it is. Making another change related to the kill that was already discussed may be more productive.


    For the people who were saying that mafias were UP, I disagree: villages should have equal or higher (but not absurd) chance of winning, if compared to mafia teams.
    But WW and GF may need some boost on big games...
     
  30. Scatterbrain

    Scatterbrain You only live once*

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    May i also add that I believe conspirator either get removed or lose his kill for roles1, and remain actionless.
     
  31. GreenWater10

    GreenWater10 GreenWater10

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    I'd like to discuss the conspirator a bit more, but while we do that, can we discuss the bomb a little? Do you guys think that we should introduce it at 5 players, replacing it with the pl? I think it would help the village win if that was the case.

    Also, back to what they were talking about above us, they said they would like to introduce the FCM and IM conspirators again. Serpentine told me the reason they were taken out was to prevent games going like this: IM conspirator, FCM conspirator, inspector, villy, villy, bg, pl, and since inspectors see the conspirators as village, it would've taken a lont time to rand them out.
     
  32. Tesla Elesa

    Tesla Elesa Almost Quality

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    I do miss the bomb. What say we bring it back (mid to late game), and for even more fun, make it so that the bomb thinks he's a villager.
     
  33. CarlesNB

    CarlesNB SideCarlesNB

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    Maybe 2 votes for DFCM and IM?

    I think Conspirator can be one of the two things I want:
    -Stalk+Kill every 2 nights, or
    -Maybe exposer+fakexposer? Like the Pen of Weapons, is a fun role and can try to troll the village (revealing some good as Mafia) or the Mafia (revealing some villager/mafia to be a PR like BG.
    I think if he have this, needs a recharge (1 expose every 2 nights seems nice).
    If people accept the last idea, the summary must say Conspi can fakeexpose, I don't want people voting off claimed inspector because Conspi revealed him as WW.
    Nothing more to say atm.
     
  34. Li Q. Assir

    Li Q. Assir Mindblower

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    >/expose
    >default

    It doesn't make much sense for me :/
     
  35. Jalmont

    Jalmont nothere

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    I think people are still missing the fact that the conspirator still ruins gameplay no matter which way you look at it. I'm unsure why people want to keep him around when he doesn't do anything except ruin good play from either the mafia or the village. Even nerfed he still has the potential to ruin the game no matter which way you look at it. Nerfing him doesn't change the problem that either side can get fucked due to no fault of their own if the conpsirator decides to work against him.

    1. Remove the conspirator entirely
    2. Remove the kill and give it a less powerful role.
    3. Remove the conspirator entirely and re-add FCM and IM Conspirator
    4. Leave as is.

    These are all the options (did i miss one?) I think have been suggested so far. I am personally in favor of 1, but I suppose there could be an argument made for the other options except for 4. I think that QC or the MAs or someone should have a vote and decide what to do with the conspirator.
     
  36. NAVIDAD PIRATE

    NAVIDAD PIRATE THE PLEASURE OF BEING CUMMED INSIDE

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    so is anything actually going to be done with this? basically everybody agrees that the conspirator as is is pretty dumb, and the actual roles and stuff does need fixing
     
  37. two sides of one coin

    two sides of one coin sick of all her shit

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    1 makes default bland, imo not really an option unless Bomb/Samurai returns.
    2 do you mean /stalk? I'm not a huge fan of that, if you stalk a PL or something and the Mafia hits the PL'd person you PM the PL saying you are Consp and that's that.
    3 in my opinion is the best of the current ones.
    4 isn't really going to work, seeing as no-one appears to want it.

    Just my two cents.
     
  38. Elite's Aaron

    Elite's Aaron Sinnoh's Elite

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    I vote that we add a Ninja that poisons.
     
  39. Fegelein

    Fegelein The Mechanic

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    There are places for poison in themes, but Default is not one of them.
     
  40. Elite's Aaron

    Elite's Aaron Sinnoh's Elite

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    Yeah, but wouldn't it be cool to get the new Ninja role that poisons?