1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Guest, PO has ceased our separate tiering and adopted Smogon tiers for SM. More information and updates here.

    Dismiss Notice

[BW2] Stealth Rock, unfair in Monotype?

Discussion in 'Gen 5 Side Metagames' started by Oesile, Nov 11, 2012.

  1. Oesile

    Oesile Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2012
    Messages:
    34
    Likes Received:
    0
    PO Trainer Name:
    Oesile
    First of all I'd like to say that this is my first Thread. I couldn't find any "rules" about constructing these threads, so I please bear with me.

    The question is, is Stealth Rock, abbreviated SR, unfair or "overpowered" in Monotype?

    SR deals type-based damage, and in a type based team like monotype, I believe it's an important issue, that negatively affects the diversity of the metagame.

    There are 4 types weak to Stealth Rock: Fire, Ice, Bug and Flying
    Meaning that those monotypes will always be damaged by at least 12,5%, but usually 25% or even 50%.

    In the next paragraphs I'll try to analyze how those 4 monotypes deal with this hazard.

    Bug Monotype

    Bug monotype is the monotype I'm most familiar with, and we usually have problems with Stealth Rock, as it stops our main sweeper, Volcarona, and most of our bug types.
    Indeed, only Scizor, Genesect, Forretress, Escavalier, Heracross, Wormadam-S, Wormadam-G, Nincada and Durant are neutral to Stealth Rock, meaning that most of our bug types are weak to it, especially our bug/flying pokemon.

    Also, five of them are bug/steel, so they compound our fire weakness, two of them (Nincada and Wormadam-G) are.. umm yeah. Atleast we have Heracross right?

    We only have two viable spinners, Forretress (Who is neutral to SR) and Armaldo (Who is).
    Forretress is slow and limits our use of other bug/steel pokemon (Fire attacks) and Armaldo is weak to it, so he can die in the process of spinning, "wasting" a turn (In terms of using the weak rapid spin, while he could have used a more powerful move).
    Yes, the opponent also wasted a turn to set up the rocks in the first place, but he didn't have to pay 25% of his HP for it!

    Stealth Rock also makes "stalling" with bug pokemon really difficult, as our walls e.g vespiquen are very hindered by losing 50% of their hit points.

    On the bright side, we can set our own rocks to compete with fire and flying.

    I want to discuss whether this hazard limits our bug teams.

    Fire Monotype

    Fire monotype.. A very very offensive monotype that has but one spinner: Torkoal.
    And in fire mono, we only have four viable pokemon that are neutral to stealth rock: Infernape, Combusken, Heatran and Camerupt (Yes, he's viable too ).

    I don't think I have to say this, but fire monotype really hates Stealth Rock.

    Besides, most of their sweepers are frail to begin with, so It's really hard for fire monotype to keep the momentum when they lose a hefty amount of hit points by switching.

    I don't know how fire monotype could deal with stealth rock.. Their spinner is slower then any stealth rocker (He has like 20 base speed) and he loses 25% HP right off the bat.

    Please discuss.

    Ice Monotype

    Ah, and here it becomes apparent that I have no idea of what I'm talking about; Ice mono is apparently a very good monotype thanks to the addiction of kyurem-B, and their good ol' weather, Hail, and while I originally thought it was the crappies monotype, I stand corrected.

    There is only one ice pokemon that can brag about taking but 12,5% damage from those Ninja Stones; Mamoswine. So rest assured that nearly all monotypes will use Mamoswine, because it's powerful, bulky, has priority, keeps you warm in winter and covers a bad weakness to rock. Heck, some swear by Philoswine as well!

    Then we meet their rapid spinners: Cryogonal, Cloyster and Sant... Delibird.
    Two viable rapid spinners then; Delibird loses 50%, and usually he's hustlin' so you can miss that critical rapid spin.

    Cloyster is a great pokemon that likes long walkes on the beach and 6-0ing beginners, scarring them for their figurative life.
    Cloyster can find many opportunities to spin, but won't like losing his coverage STAB move (Either hydro pump or razor shell). At least he can pull a decent rapid spin KO (Or OHKO if you're awesome).

    Cryogonal has great special defense, and is like, super fast, so spinning shouldn't be a problem, even with his icicle-thin defenses and weakness to rocks.


    While ice monotype only has one evolutionary line that is neutral to stealth rock, they have two reliable spinners and a gimmicky Christmas variant.

    Is stealth rock a pain to ice monotypes? Discuss.

    Flying monotype

    Flying monotype is the monotype that can use Stealth Rock to his advantage; they can just bounce it with Xatu.

    So while the only flying spinner is Delibird, Xatu solves the hazard problem really well.

    Gliscor, Landorus and Skarmory are very solid pokemon that can easily switch in, and either roost, smash (Landorus) or set up your own hazards (Skarmory), while protecting you from the electric and ice types the rest of your team doesn't like.

    Sigilyph is the only pokemon in mono-flying that takes no damage from SR, courtesy of magic guard, so he deserves a mention.

    So in my opinion flying mono is bothered the least from rocks in the four monotypes we analysed; You'll want a skarmory or a Landorus anyway due to their useful resistances.

    Discuss.



    And last but not least, some monotypes just can't defend or prepare against this hazard; 6 of the 17 types don't have a spinner, so dark, grass, dragon, ghost, normal and electric are at a loss.

    Houndoom, Weavile and Honchcrow are helpless in dark mono, to name a few. While many dark types have taunt, you'll be at a disadvantage, as they only need one turn to set up stealth rock.

    Dragon is considered a very powerful monotype (Heck they nerfed it) but many dragons are part flying, and the new Kyurem-B is weak to those hidden pebbles as well.

    Normal needs flying types. With everyone fighting monotype happy, those brave birds are critical.

    I know nothing about electric, grass and ghost mono, so I'll leave those to your imagination.

    Am I an overreacting softie? Does Stealth Rock really have such an impact? Does this move hurt our balance, by keeping flying and bug monotype at bay, so fighting can be king?

    I know that I'm the OP of this thread, but I really need your opinions, as there may be more then I can see behind this.
     
  2. Michael

    Michael Lance Dragon Master

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2011
    Messages:
    749
    Likes Received:
    0
    I really don't think that Stealth Rock is overpowered.

    Bug Mono has Forretress, arguably the best spinner in the game. It can also set up rocks of its own and spin-blockers are very rare on Monotype teams. The Bug-pokemon you listd that are neutral to Stealth Rock usually make up the majority of a typical Bug team. Ex: Escavalier, Genesect, Heracross, Forretress, Scizor, Volcarona. 5/6 are neutral and you have a spinner.

    Ice, like you said, has a plethora of powerful Pokemon, a supporting weather-inducer, AND snow cloak. Cryogonal is a great special defense wall and can easily switch in and spin away the rocks. Cloyster is the same but has superb defense instead. Delibird is an obvious no unless you're Luck>Skill. Ice is already powerful enough as it is, and by eliminating its one of few weaknesses it will be simply too good.

    Flying is also lucky enough to have many, many good pokemon. Stealth rock shouldn't be much of an issue if the player is strategic in building his or her team. Sure, a team full of Swellow, Braviary, Zapdos, etc would get destroyed by the rocks, but if you are smart and build a team around synergy and set-up sweeping as well as bulkier Pokes. Xatu, as you mentioned is one of the best options to avoid getting rocks on your side due to the No-Preview of Monotype

    In my opinion, Fire is the type most affected by SR. Torkoal is simply too slow and too weak on the special side to reliably spin. However, this does not mean Stealth Rock is overpowered. Every type should be able to come up with a comprehensive strategy to beat the opposing team even with Stealth Rock on the field. If the sweepers are frail, then don't switch them in and out to resist moves. This should be obvious, as each successive sweeper should attempt to sweep instead of trying to resist. If fire runs a hyper-offensive strategy then it should have no problem.

    I have used all of the above types in the past and I can say that although Stealth Rocks can be a nuisance, it is easily played around. Stealth Rock by itself does give a player the win, it takes strategic plays and finding the right opportunity to initiate a sweep.

    Also, if a type does not have a spinner, that just simply means that the player must adapt. Many Wifi teams do not have a spinner as it hinders the overall pace of the team and so this should be kept in mind when constructing a team of one of the types you mentioned.
     
  3. User Name

    User Name Life is a maze

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2010
    Messages:
    1,769
    Likes Received:
    3
    The 2 monos in your list I have experience with are Bug and Ice.
    For Bug, I've found Stealth Rock was only rarely a problem; most useful Bug-types (Volcarona and Galvantula being the primary notable exceptions) take neutral, and I never ran a Spinner anyways as I don't like Forretress. It probably wasn't as much of a problem because I've found that in Monotype there's usually less reason to do lots of switching around, at least in my experience.
    Ice doesn't like it much, but though you mention Spinners, I notice you don't mention anti-leads--which are still viable in Monotype due to the No Team Preview. Weavile is my choice, and there have only been a few fights where hazards were setup--most of which were unfavorable matchups anyways.

    However, in my experience with USING Stealth Rock, I would conclude...it still isn't broken. It does hurt some Monotypes, but running it will often lead to an effectively 'dead' moveslot against others. Although it can be argued that the passive damage granted by SR is never dead, it is certainly much less useful, and plenty of times you probably would've done more damage if you used the turn you used to set it up to just start attacking.
    Setting up SR is easy, but it isn't cost-free.
     
  4. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2012
    Messages:
    968
    Likes Received:
    744
    Darn it Michael, those were all my points XD
    Anyway, all I have to say is that rocks weakness is just like any other weakness to a type, you just have to play around it. The current top of the ladder uses Monobug unless they switched, and rocks are everywhere in the tier. There's no evidence that proves stealth rock breaks monotype, all I see it as is another challenge that some monotypes have to get around :/

    A lot of what your saying sounds like you just dislike them because they're a "pain" to deal with. But if we were going by "pains", then I want keldeo, infernape, machamp, and breloom banned too. Way to irritating for monosteel to deal with and I need to dedicate an ENTIRE poke to each one.

    In real life, I just find ways around them, just as those other monotypes would with stealth rocks.

    Your point on cloyster isn't that relevant, on monoice, cloyster should be spinning and walling, not sweeping :/
    Monobug couldn't wall really as the majority of its pokes have weak defensive stats and would be better off sweeping.
    Let's face it, if you want to wall so much, just use mononormal, monosteel, monoice, monowater, etc.
    If you want to sweep, use monofighting, monobug, etc.
    If you want to use your favorite type as you said on the server, then do that.

    Oh! And there isn't just one example, I've seen many creative ways of getting around rocks from all types weak to it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2012
  5. Wander

    Wander Shitty Wizard

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,254
    Likes Received:
    28
    I believe the risk of SR comes with the types you pick, and the Pokemon you integrated to your team.
    You have to deal with it yourself and adapt, like when facing teams with a type advantage.
    And some types have trouble setting SR in the first place. What can an electric team use for SR?

    So yeah, it's pretty much a pain you'll have to adapt to.
    And also, if you're walling with a Monobug, you're not doing it right.
     
  6. Archerknight

    Archerknight Legends

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2010
    Messages:
    2,430
    Likes Received:
    0
    PO Trainer Name:
    Archerknight
    I personally don't think that Stealth Rock is broken in Monotype.

    Every type has its individual advantages and disadvantages, and you must adapt your teams to lower the SR weakness. Mono-Bug isn't a problem; Forretress is a very viable spinner, and if one chooses not to run it then it's their own fault for being weak to SR. Just like if I run Yanmega without a spinner in a UU team...

    There are a lot of flying pokemon that are neutral to Stealth rock, and with Xatu it's really just a matter of prediction. Again, with correct play it shouldn't be too much of a problem.

    Fire and Ice have a bit of a problem with Stealth Rock, but they have their advantages in power though. It's down to each individual typing really. ;x
     
  7. two sides of one coin

    two sides of one coin sick of all her shit

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2012
    Messages:
    1,255
    Likes Received:
    0
    When I played mono-Bug in Monotype I got quite hurt by SR. So I decided to use an anti-lead to stop them getting SR up. Surprise surprise - it worked!
     
  8. Oesile

    Oesile Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2012
    Messages:
    34
    Likes Received:
    0
    PO Trainer Name:
    Oesile
    Ah, it appears that the general consensus has no problem with Stealth Rock.. I guess that it didn't have an influence as great as I thought. It's just that, as a bug-mono player, I have noticed that once Stealth Rock was up, that it was nearly impossible to win. Shouldn't run Volcarona and Yanmega on the same team, I guess.

    Question is, how does Forretress keep up momentum? He's quad-weak to fire, a type everyone should use really, and bug mono has very few safe switch-ins.
    Ah, well. I thought that monotype, unlike normal play, would believe that Stealth Rock, effective against 9 out of the 17 teams, would be a bit too much.

    I mean, if you have a move that 'covers' 9 out of 17 types, either because they can't spin, or are weak to the move, that it'd be much more popular and dreaded.

    Well, this thread can be closed (I have no idea how to close a thread, so I hope that mods are supposed to do it)
     
  9. Wander

    Wander Shitty Wizard

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,254
    Likes Received:
    28
    Bug/Steel has a lot of resistances, and gets a lot of free turns on physical sweepers.
    Volt Switch can be used to keep momentum if you think the opp is going to switch.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2012
  10. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2012
    Messages:
    968
    Likes Received:
    744
    They have Derpfisk, although I have seriously seen an electric team do well using it XD
     
  11. Archerknight

    Archerknight Legends

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2010
    Messages:
    2,430
    Likes Received:
    0
    PO Trainer Name:
    Archerknight
    Yes, Forretress uses Volt-Switch to keep the momentum high; it's a really great move to get out of tricky situations.
     
  12. User Name

    User Name Life is a maze

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2010
    Messages:
    1,769
    Likes Received:
    3
    I've never used Forretress, IMO he's not good. :P
    I did use both Volcarona and Yanmega, but Yanmega was in my lead slot so he never really had to worry about SR. The main monos I've seen that setup SR are Psychic and Steel with Bronzong, Fighting with Infernape, and occasionally Rock. Psychic could be beaten out by Bug anyways depending on the situation (Trick Room is more dangerous, in my opinion), Steel will be a problem due to Heatran+Skarmory anyways, I actually manage to keep SR from MonoFightings away due to Air Slash flinches/OHKOs amusingly enough, and Rock is a difficult matchup regardless.

    So, overall, doesn't really change much in terms of MonoBugs.
    Users of Stealth Rock aren't exactly common, either, so it's not often you'll find a Monotype that'll use it against you.
     
  13. Brood

    Brood New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    0
    With no stealth rocks, flying becomes broken (hello 6 focus sash teams) etc...
    Bug has a good spinner and plenty of bug/steel that aren't weak to rock.
    Ice is powerful enough already (and has two spinners).
    Fire hates stealth rock (and all hazards in general). But fire is meant to be played with a heavy emphasis on offense, and so losing a quarter of your pokemon's HP isn't as much of an issue as it could be. Not to mention infernape lead with fake out is good at stopping many things from setting up rocks to begin with.
     
  14. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2010
    Messages:
    2,496
    Likes Received:
    540
    Doesn't Ghost then inherently have an advantage over Bug, Ice, Fire and Flying when it runs a Golurk with Stealth Rock? Just a genuine question, I have little experience with Monotype. Levitate is hugely common among Ghosts too so it's not like getting up spikes against them is gonna do much.
     
  15. Michael

    Michael Lance Dragon Master

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2011
    Messages:
    749
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ghost is a generally weaker type in general when it comes to monotype, at least in my experience. While it is impossible to spin away SR against a ghost team, most people don't carry a spinner in the first place on well-built team of the types you mentioned. This is because of the heavy-offense and extremely fast paced play-style they use, so usually ghost just crumbles to the repeated onslaught of sweepers. If you're trying to hazard stall a ghost team then you're in for a bad time.
     
  16. Croak

    Croak 20/20 hindsight

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2011
    Messages:
    273
    Likes Received:
    0
    There aren't many reliable Bug/Flying-type Pokemon as the only one I can think off the top of my head is Yanmega. I've had a lot of experience with Mono-Bug, turned out to be one of the most successful Monotype team I've ever built. I have both Volcorona and Yanmega on my team and I can say that they're worth carrying even though enemy Stealth Rock immediately poses a threat to my team. When closely investigated, it's almost as if Stealth Rock stabilizes or 'evens out the playing field' if you will.

    Example: There are a few Psychic-types that are able to use Stealth Rock giving them a chance against Mono-Bug. Most common ones in my perception being Metagross and Jirachi, they also have perfect dual-typage to fend off attacks. If you've ever run or was up against Mono-Bug, you would know that Yanmega easily sweeps through most Mono-Psychic teams. Connecting this to my thesis above, "When closely investigated, it's almost as if Stealth Rock stabilizes or 'evens out the playing field' if you will.", hopefully I've addressed my point effectively with enough support.
     
  17. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2012
    Messages:
    968
    Likes Received:
    744
    Ghost isn't that weak, it's what I really started laddering with before steel :/
    Hazards aren't the only thing ghost can do~
     
  18. Wander

    Wander Shitty Wizard

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,254
    Likes Received:
    28
    They're not weak, but their options are limited, being the type with the least amount of Pokemon sucks.
    Standard Ghost team: Chandelure, Jellicent, Froslass, Gengar, Sableye, Golurk/Spiritomb/Cofagrigus/lolDusknoir.

    A lot of them also do the same thing, so yeah.
     
  19. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2010
    Messages:
    2,496
    Likes Received:
    540
    Playing with Mono Ghost yesterday, I found Drifblim to be a really great asset to the team, a set of Unburden Flying Gem with Sub, Acrobatics, Will-o-Wisp and Destiny Bond really screws with the HO meta. Btw people shouldn't even bother with using Jellicent it sucks. Ghost has a lot of options to beat super offensive teams that are everywhere, aforementioned Drifblim, Sableye, OTR Cofag, Sub Disable Gengar et al. And not being spun on should mean Lead Golurk should be what all Mono Ghost teams use, imo, I've been using it with focus sash to help against other leads like Scarf Genesect. Maybe people should try Mono Ghost more ^-^
     
  20. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2012
    Messages:
    968
    Likes Received:
    744
    Jellicent actually functions as a nice defensive pivot for setting up Trick Room on the many scarfers of monotype~
     
  21. Bamarah

    Bamarah "Baton Pass Elite"

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2010
    Messages:
    344
    Likes Received:
    16
    Jellicent also walls entire Fighting monos once Breloom (If he's even on the team?) is gone.
     
  22. Michael

    Michael Lance Dragon Master

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2011
    Messages:
    749
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jellicent is set-up bait for Scrafty - Sableye is better at what it does and should be what is used instead, IMO.
    Conkeldurr doesn't fear Jelli whatsoever as well.

    Anyway this discussion is getting a bit off topic.. maybe we should make a Monotype general discussion thread.
     
  23. VarunRi

    VarunRi Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    54
    Likes Received:
    0
    PO Trainer Name:
    VarunR
    Besides Fire, I don't see how Stealth Rock disadvantages extremely any of types that are weak to it. In case of Fire, I'd think you'd be almost always running hyper-offense (with Torkoal as a defensive pivot) so yes, SR would affect it negatively, but it doesn't cripple it to unusability.
     
  24. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2012
    Messages:
    4,289
    Likes Received:
    2,267
    PO Trainer Name:
    Finchinator / Finch
    Just saying that: Bug, Flying, Ice, and Fire are weak. Although more bug types than not (Genesect, Scizor, Etc.) are neutral vs Stealth Rocks, or so it seem, all three respective types share the weakness. Not just fire!
     
  25. VarunRi

    VarunRi Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    54
    Likes Received:
    0
    PO Trainer Name:
    VarunR
    But Bug, Ice and Flying are already very powerful, so they still remain potent monotypes even with the presence of Stealth Rock. Bug has Genesect, Scizor, Heracross and Volcarona, not to mention Forretress. Ice has Blizzard, Kyurem-B, with rapid spinners. Flying has Scarf Mence, Landorus, Gliscor, Skarmory, with Xatu. I don't have much experience with Fire, but it still destroys the teams weak to it - Steel, Grass, Bug whether or not they use SR.
     
  26. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2012
    Messages:
    968
    Likes Received:
    744
    I'm not sure why people continue to call Ice and Flying negatively affected by rocks to the point of being crippled. Ice has some of the best stall pokes, Registall and Stallrein, who can heal off the damage. Monoflying has IMMUNITY to all other hazards, not to mention a poke that can counter the hazards and use them against the opponent, Xatu. Bug has a great spinner, forretress, who can really get the job done if you play it right. And fire, while admittedly it may be strongly affected by rocks, has sheer offensive capabilities, not to mention Torkoal who can spin hazards away (yes it works)
     
  27. Superbob

    Superbob New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2012
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    0
    I run a monoflying and while stopping rocks with xatu/prankster taunt (tornadus/thundurus) is relatively easy against most types, I can't do anything against Mamoswine because it will just kill me with an ice move and then just set up rocks the next available chance it has.

    But I don't think rocks should be removed. I do think Hail should be removed from Ice though, because 100% accurate blizzards will wear even Skarmory down eventually. (especially if it has to come in on a Blizzard)
     
  28. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2012
    Messages:
    968
    Likes Received:
    744
    Monoflying has answers to hail. Carrying rain dance isn't particularly unviable due to the plethora of pokemon that can abuse hurricane and thunder. Not to mention you have pokes like articuno and moltres to deal with hail.