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[BW2] Freeing mold breaker/sand force excadrill?

Discussion in 'Gen 5 Discussion' started by Kland, Feb 26, 2013.

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  1. Kland

    Kland One true god

    with the recent unbanning of rough skin chomp, one of the better excadrill checks, i would like to start discussion about the possible unbanning of mold breaker/sand force drill. Drill is a fast steel type that can spin and set up hazards. Not only can it set up hazards it can quake latios rotoms and bypass espy and xatu's abillity to bounce rocks.

    Also reguarding the complex ban rule, you could just ban sand rush with sand since, no1 uses any other sand rushers and adding in mold breaker drill would be more commonly used the other pokemon bans, and if you can ban rain + swift swim i do not see why you cannot ban sand + sand rush.
  2. Royalty

    Royalty Stay Trippy

    Garchomp was only unbanned because sand veil was banned as a whole. Swift swim and sand rush pose very different threats and banning sand rush + sand would then cripple other sand rush users that aren't broken such as stoutland and sandslash. On another note complex bans are shunned for good reason.
  3. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough Tier Leader

    PO Trainer Name:
    Finchinator / Finch
    Agree with this, 100%.
    Plus, then we'd have to contemplate how to complex ban, if it's broken - what way it is broken, is nerfing chlorophyll now needed, etc.
    Avoiding complex bans and staying on the steady path that our OU tier leaders have been on as of late (First, Gene and veil. Then, Chomp. Next will probably be Torn-T.)is how we should do it.
  4. two sides of one coin

    two sides of one coin sick of all her shit

    If by a steady path you mean blatantly copying Smogon sure
  5. Nikitas

    Nikitas Member

    I am not against retesting Sand Force and Mold Breaker Excadrill but in order to do that we would need a complex ban. I am sure that missing on Mold Breaker Excadrill isnt the best thing but, you will need to provide a viable ban that will not affect the current meta to the slightest, something I havent come up with atm.
  6. Dr. Fuji

    Dr. Fuji New Member

    PO Trainer Name:
    Dr. Fuji
    I've always found this argument against complex bans funny we had no troubles doing a complex ban on Drizzle and Swift Swim that got a bunch of non broken Pokemon banned see Luvdisk, Seaking and others. Personally I think if a Pokemon is primary only banned because of its ability (Blaziken/Excadrill) it should be allowed without the problem ability, you can see this with the recent Garchomp unbanning sure we banned Sand Veil as a whole but the only Pokemon it had a significant impact on was Garchomp in that it got another chance at OU without its "problem ability" although IMO Sand Veil was a lot less defining an ability then say Excadrill's Sand Rush or Blaziken's Speed Boost. That being said I'll admit I am slightly biased because I really want another spinner in OU and I know it's up to the tier leaders to decide just posting my thoughts.
  7. Tony Gonzalez

    Tony Gonzalez New Member

    ^This. Nobody will argue complex bans are ideal but the argument seems to be over whether or they are more ideal than having a poke like excadrill or Blaziken banned completely when they're perfectly viable without their broken ability. I obviously fall into the camp that agrees with this sentiment however I can somewhat relate to those why are 100% against complex bans.
  8. Nicehat

    Nicehat PO client damage calc:

    Sand Rush Stoutland and Sandslash are much less viable in OU than Mold Breaker Excadrill would be, and I would trade those two for Excadrill in a heartbeat. In other words, I don't really care if Stoutland and Sandslash are "crippled" in OU, they can shine in lower tiers where they belong.
    I don't see the point in complex banning Sand Rush + Sand Stream since to be honest nobody runs Sand Rush outside of permasand anyway, so it's not like any value is lost by just banning Sand Rush outright. Either way, if this happens then it's possible that Sand Stream might be able to be freed in UU alongside Snow Warning (value!).
    I don't see how the difference in Swift Swim and Sand Rush is particularly relevant; it's not like anyone cared about the difference between Sand Veil and Snow Cloak (and the difference between Hail and Sand is much larger than that between Rain and Sand!)
    Complex bans are shunned because everyone says you should shun complex bans. That being said there's nothing really that complex about "Sand Rush is banned in OU and all lower tiers" and if people have been dealing fine with the Drizzleswim ban for 2+ years (note the complete lack of people confused about how this works) so I think we can trust them to remember "SS+Sand Rush" ban too.

    Ban Sand Rush, or ban Sand Rush and Sand Stream. It's not a difficult decision, just pick one because functionally they both work the same. It's arguably broken because 1/3 of its fully evolved users are broken mainly because of the ability and the rest are not even close to being OU (hey, this argument worked for Sand Veil and Snow Cloak!)
    Literally none of Chlorophyll's users are Uber. Garchomp was an Uber Sand Veil user, and Excadrill was an Uber Sand Rush user. Thus, the two are not comparable (Drizzleswim had like two Pokemon that would possibly/probably be considered uber if it were legal, Ludicolo and Kingdra, plus maybe Kabutops and then the endless stream of Water-types with good Special Attack and Surf/Ice Beam/HP Grass). If there was a Chlorophyll Pokemon that was banned from OU that otherwise might not have been, (say if we banned Venusaur) then maybe discussing Chlorophyll would be relevant too.

    Ban Sand Rush. Stoutland and Sandslash combine for like 2.7% usage, that's not even close to remotely affecting the meta by banning them. I can't speak for other people but personally when I build a team I don't worry about "how can I beat Stoutland or Sandslash" because that kind of follows when you prepare your team for stronger threats like Terrakion or Landorus so it doesn't really affect my teambuilding either.
    BTW it takes like five seconds to think of a complex ban that doesn't affect the current meta to the slightest: Sand Rush Excadrill is banned.

    Alternately, we could just retest Excadrill in its entirety; the last time it was legal the tier was quite different, and there are plenty of checks and counters that weren't around last time (e.g. Landorus-T, Breloom, Keldeo, defensive Rotom-W, etc.). Sun teams in general are also much more prepared to beat Sand (Dugtrio) than before, I think.
  9. MewtwoHidden

    MewtwoHidden My Hax Makes Me Famous

    PO Trainer Name:
    This and Sand is really only in the metagame (Very rarely) to disrupt it has Little Viable abusers except for Stoutland and who uses Stoatland a SAY free Mold Breaker/Sand Force I mean Sand Force and Mold Breaker are both extremely vaible with some Scarf or BP Speed pass but truthfully what sweepers in sand are bulky enough to make a gain from 1.5x Sdef Sun and Rain all have abusers (Chloraphyll needs to get banned if Excadrill can't even have Sand Force)
  10. Professor Oak

    Professor Oak KA-BOOM! Forum Administrator Server Owner

    PO Trainer Name:
    Professor Oak
    I'll first start by mentioning that Finchinator said the OU Leaders were taking the tier on a steady path. This is relevant to my reply.

    The OU Leaders decide nothing alone. The Potential Suspects Thread is the main method of choosing suspects - if enough people want something to be a suspect, we make it a suspect. Additionally, the users then vote on said suspects - the OU Leaders have not voted on the last few suspects at all.

    Therefore, I would prefer it if you would not imply that the OU Leaders are blindly following Smogon's bans, when the suspect process is dictated a lot more by the users than the Leaders. Thanks.

    This is true. If Speed Boost was banned as a whole (noting Ninjask, Yanmega and Sharpedo), we'd retest Blaziken. If Sand Rush was banned (noting Sandslash and Stoutland), we'd retest Excadrill. Neither of those abilities are banned, so we are not retesting those suspects.

    The OP states that the other Sand Rush users are not used. Whilst neither Sandslash or Stoutland are OU, Stoutland is a feature on a number of notable OU teams that have reached high rankings on the ladder.

    Finally, the OP states that "if you can ban rain + swift swim i do not see why you cannot ban sand + sand rush." Sand Rush has been a contributing factor for one Pokemon being banned, with its other users being quite manageable both in the Sand and in other weathers. By comparison, Swift Swim's existance in the metagame alongside Drizzle lead to Kingdra, Kabutops, Ludicolo, Omastar, Gorebyss, Huntail and Floatzel all being posted as potential suspects - none of which have been listed as Suspects since the inclusion of the Drizzle + Swift Swim ban. I fail to see a fair comparison between the two combinations.

    The reason the Drizzle + Swift Swim ban was made as a result of all the above suspects is because users were torn as to whether the problem was Drizzle or Swift Swim. The combination ban resolved any disputes. I personally don't like the Drizzle + Swift Swim ban, to be honest, but the community and OU Leaders at the time decided what to do, and that was followed.

    Anyway, I like to think I've made my point. Topic locked.
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