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[BW2] Suspect Discussion: Liepard

Discussion in 'Gen 5 NU' started by Big Bad Booty Daddy, Mar 7, 2013.

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  1. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Speed Boost has never been banned; Blaziken itself is uber.

    Also, there's simply the fact that Prankster does not potentially(since I know people are going to say "BUT IT'S NOT BROKEN") break any other pokemon, as Liepard's the only one with it that is posing any kind of problem.
     
  2. New Breed

    New Breed ka$h

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    1.
    2. Blaziken was banned as a whole, not just the ability Speed Boost
    3. I don't even get the yao ming reference

    Seriously can you go back and read the posts properly, this is beyond annoying.
     
  3. Wander

    Wander Shitty Wizard

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    Read carefully, that's what we've been saying. It's not Liepard, it's a combination of either Prankster, Swagger, and Foul Play, we know this, we just haven't reached a conclusion.
    Also Speed Boost wasn't banned, Blaziken itself was banned, a Pokemon's ability is a part of it just as much as a move is.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2013
  4. Arceus_17

    Arceus_17 Avoid eye contact

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    @Nerd

    Wrong. Murkrow does the EXACT same thing: Has access to Prankster T-Wave, Swagger, Substitute, Foul Play and EVEN a reliable recovery move (Roost). Not to mention that Crow's bulk is significantly superior due to Eviolite's boost.

    If you are banning Liepard from NU, Murkrow will imediatlly take the cat's role as an "Annoyer" and I can imagine a suspect thread for Murkrow coming very soon...
     
  5. Nicehat

    Nicehat PO client damage calc: preview.tinyurl.com/o8e7hss

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    Firstly, considering paralysis cuts speed to 25% I don't see why Prankster even matters; after you paralyze whatever is in, you're probably guaranteed to outspeed it anyway. You may as well say that every user of parafusion turns the game into a die roll (as it does, just like how Jirachi's paraflinch strategy turns the matchup into a die roll, and just like how paralysis or confusion in itself automatically gives you the opportunity to hax your opponent out anyway).

    Saying there are no counters are facetious. Aside from the Own Tempo users (Lickilicky and Purugly stand out), Pokemon that aren't physical attackers and resist Dark also don't really care about Liepard at all. They exist, so if you decide that you don't want to prepare for Liepard you can't complain when it sweeps you just like how complaining that SD Samurott 6-0's you is not remotely relevant when you consciously decide to run 6 frail Pokemon that don't resist Water-type attacks.

    I also don't understand the complaints that Liepard puts pressure on Hyper Offensive teams. Firstly, it's not even like Liepard is guaranteed to win; even against Hyper Offense at most it generaly only has a 45% to win anyway. Secondly, I don't see why we need to cater to every niche playstyle to try and make it viable. Emboar and Gothorita make it much harder to run Stall, Prankster Encore destroys Baton Pass chains, and Seismitoed and Mantine are complete dead stops to most offensive Rain teams. I don't see why Liepard should be given special consideration just because it's good against hyper offense.

    Finally, I don't understand the comment of "this doesn't add anything to the game, so we may as well ban it anyway". Saying Liepard is completely worthless for the tier is not true at all; aside from the arguable merit of Parafusion, Liepard is by far one of the best Rain supporters because of its unique typing, Prankster, and excellent supporting movepool. Its Nasty Plot set can be very threatening due to its high base speed, and even just a regular attacking set is fine as it has both surprise value and the bonus of Prankster TWave and U-Turn setting it apart from Skuntank and other Dark-type attackers. Just because one of its sets is obnoxious doesn't mean that the entire Pokemon itself has no competitive value, and there are plenty of uses for both Liepard and Prankster that don't turn the game into 100% bullshit.
     
  6. SilverPT

    SilverPT Member

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    When I started playing 5 gen, Blaziken was legit in OU with Blaze. Still... how does Blaziken with Blaze is a threat in Uber?
     
  7. Arceus_17

    Arceus_17 Avoid eye contact

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    Probably the bright minds who did that are the same ones which banned Smeargle from UU and are now forcing Liepard to jump 2 tiers in less than one week.
     
  8. Michael

    Michael Lance Dragon Master

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    Blaziken was banned because of its ability to boost +2 attack, +1 speed in one turn, baton passing and two 120 BP STABs. Speed boost itself was deemed not broken, so things like Sharpedo are not banned. Since Speed boost as a whole is not banned, a ban allowing Blaziken with Blaze would be too unnecessarily complex.

    Also I don't think suspecting Liepard is the way to go about this. A suspect of Prankster + Swagger IMO would be the best option. Banning prankster as a whole will ruin other pokes that are not as uncompetitive nor broken as Liepard, namely Tornadus and non-swagger play Sableye.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2013
  9. SilverPT

    SilverPT Member

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    How is that remotely complex? Blaziken don't have the ability to fight decently in OU. If the ability is "a part of it (pokémon) just as much as a move is" just as mister Wander said, I think you should ban Bibarel, Glalie, Octillery and Smeargle as well.
     
  10. Luck>Skill

    Luck>Skill Well-Known Member

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    You don't get the difference, do you?

    Speed Boost by itself isn't broken, as proved by the fact that Sharpedo, Yanmega, and Ninjask aren't broken in the slightest in their respective tier, Moody has been proved to be broken even in ubers, yes, even a simple Bibarel could become potentially broken in ubers thanks to SubTect + Moody (although Octillery was more common in Ubers)

    And yes, I played in the Moody metagame
     
  11. Arceus_17

    Arceus_17 Avoid eye contact

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    I believe what Silver is trying to say is that Blaze Blaziken is not broken in OU - and in fact he's far from being broken. But let's not continue the off-topic
     
  12. .Rawr!

    .Rawr! c(°3°)כ

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    I read a lot of the posts in this thread, and i don't think liepard is the problem, neither prankster, neither i think NU is the only tier discussed here, because i think the Swagger+Foul Play combo is the issue here.

    - Spreading thunder-waves and creating Subs: they are nothing new in the metagame, lot of not-prankster pokes already does the same and there isn't any problem there.

    - Swagger: we all know how annoying can be a confusion, furthermore a confusion coming from a +2 attack stat can be deadly to certain pokes hitting themselves. Still, the move isn't a problem, like lot of defensive pokes don't mind getting confused and the added attack don't have great impact on them anyway.

    - And finally Foul Play: the move in itself isn't a great thing, resisted by type resistances etc.; coupled with Swagger is a nightmare instead. The confused poke need get ride of his own confusion, and believe me, it will be confused at least 1 time, letting Liepard (in this case) the chance to create a sub. From there comes the good thing: Foul play power increased for the attack stat + STAB of liepard means ur poke will be screwed-up.

    Only few pokemons can resist this strategy (lol strategy...) defensive pokes which don't invest in attack in general, u turners/volt switchers to an extent (if u are lucky), because if you send an attacker, it gonna end crippled at best, killed for his own attack at worst. This combo takes the game out of your hands, it's like Haxrachi only worst, because not only u have a chance of not attack, like iron head rachi does, but u have a chance of attack yourself! LOL


    Tl;dr: I'm supporting a complex ban of Swagger + Foul Play
     
  13. User Name

    User Name Life is a maze

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    Can someone address this post? :|
    Seems ya guys got sidetracked by Blaziken and skipped over it.
     
  14. WizzleKidd

    WizzleKidd Wizzlin' PO since Feb '11

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    Most of the time, PO is ban-happy. In this case, a niche poke that's been around since, suddenly gets used much more and they can't be bothered to prepare for it.
     
  15. Gl4ss

    Gl4ss Just a little sarcastic

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    Niche is not the problem. Slaking was a niche poke that saw a sudden spike in usage, but no one wants to ban Slaking. The problem lies in how the strategy of Swagger+Foul Play works. If you can't be bothered to read the thread, don't contribute.

    Prankster matters a lot, it means that Liepard is guaranteed to get a Swagger off even if it doesn't have its sub up in desperation situations. This is where all of the 'OMG Fuck Liepard' talk comes in because a game that was otherwise won has now swung completely because of bad luck. I didn't state that every user of Parafusion should be banned, if you had read my previous posts you would have seen that I'm against banning Rotom-S and its Parafusion flinch set. But Rotom-S can be revenge killed and its Air Slash doesn't increase in strength with each successive Confuse Ray.

    I also never said there are no counters and very few people did. You may not have noticed the gigantic bold print that says Liepard is not Broken. It's not, we know that, we're well aware of the fact that it has hard counters. We don't want to remove the strategy because it's broken and beats most of the metagame most of the time. We want it removed because it beats a lot of the metagame if it can just get 2 coin flips in a row which we feel is unhealthy. Obviously if you run Bastiodon or Lickilicky you probably don't have as many problems with its, but hyper offense faces a different problem.

    Liepard is not just 'good' against Hyper Offense teams. It can single handedly beat or cripple most of them at any point in the game even in a 1-6 situation if it gets a Swagger confusehax then a free Sub. It is not in the same vein as Gothorita or Emboar or Seismitoad or Mantine. Gothorita can do its job but it then has to face Skuntank, a mon that fits well into stall anyway given that stall also has to deal with Exeggutor. Emboar can break stall 'in theory' but a switch into Alomomola to scout will almost always turn out in the stall team's favor as it can then switch into an appropriate wall to absorb the choice of wall. Seismitoad can hardly stop Rain teams given that almost all of them will be running HP Grass and even if they aren't Swanna can beat it without too much trouble and Mantine is Rock weak and will often to whatever physical sweepers are on the team. 3 RD supporters + 3 Surf spammers does not a passable RD team make. The problem is that Hyper Offense can't really 'slot' anything in that will fit well with the playstyle while still dealing with Liepard. How often can a HO team afford a dead slot like Bastiodon or Lickilicky? Most mons have offensive and defensive counters, you can beat them by walling them or you can beat them by revenge killing them or you can beat them by tanking a hit and killing back. Liepard only has defensive counters that are reliable, all of its offensive 'counters' are susceptible to being haxed to death. This is not the same as 'you just didn't adequately prepare'. If a Rain Dance team loses to Mantine because it didn't have HP Electric or a physical attacker somewhere, that is something that should be remedied. But rain teams should have Physical attackers anyway, they serve purposes aside from beating Mantine like taking on Roselia and Lickilicky. SD Samurott can 6-0 a hyper offensive team that doesn't prepare for it, but there are lots of viable HO mons like Sawsbuck, Special Samurott, Swanna, and Articuno that can take it on and fulfill other roles as well. How do you 'prepare' for Liepard and not wreck your offensive synergy.

    The fact is that if your luck is bad, it doesn't even have to be that bad, you can easily lose to Liepard. So my Wartortle is 252 HP 252 Def Eviolite with Surf, I then proceed to smack myself every time Liepard Swaggers me. Awesome. That was really effective. I can either stay in and hope to strike through confusion while Foul Play does progressively more damage, or switch out and take Hazard damage to come back in.

    Only has a 45% chance, do you understand how bad that is? I have 1 mon now and even though I might lose all 5 of my other pokemon without doing any real damage to my opponent I have a 45% chance to delay their victory and a subsequent 50% chance to score a legitimate shot at winning this match. That sounds terrible to me.

    It's not that HO can't beat Liepard or any Sub+Swagger+Foul Play team. It can, but not always, and there's always the possibility that you could end up getting screwed. I feel that 25% is too high so I believe the strategy, not Liepard, should be banned/nerfed.

    Also I never wanted to ban Liepard, and in my previous posts I stated that Liepard has other viable sets that are worth keeping. My primary focus is just the Swagger+Foul Play+Prankster combination.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2013
  16. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Just to let you know, this is something that has been going on and discussed about over and over again for a very long time - at least for 3 tier cycles now, if not more. This isn't a knee jerk reaction nor a sudden case of being ban happy; I just thought it's finally time to have a formal discussion on it. Which, to be frank, has gone terribly wrong since people can't seem to get past saying "this is stupid liepard's not broken" or "you're stupid because ____" and actually discuss about the matter at hand.

    Your post is ironically a prime example of the reason why this thread is such a train wreck.
     
  17. ZodiaK

    ZodiaK Get the fuck off my porch

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    While I am not a regular NU user atm, I have played NU in the past and I am all for the fairness of competitive play. Now when I heard and saw the discussion of banning Liepard or the strategy itself, I told myself, this is outrageous. I can understand that certain players will become frustrated at these strategies by certain pokemon which do it best BUT, isn't that the point of a set that is classified as an "annoyer". Any prepared and well built team shouldn't really be affected by this at all as the only thing Liepard is accomplishing is team support via paralysis spreading and "mini sweeps" assuming it has been given free turns to set up and/or it gets lucky in the number/odds department. 55% failure rate (swagger accuracy + hitting self) > 45% success rate while 75% > 25% rates on respective thunderwaves. As a battler facing a Liepard, I like my odds. Each of these two options requires putting themselves at risk of being KO'd unless you have given them free turns via misplays or free set up fodder (i.e mono-attacker musha).

    I decided to research what kinds of effective approaches could be used to deal with this "annoyer" set in the NU meta. Here's what I've found so far.

    Magcarco (Flame Body)
    Electrode (Static, Volt Switch)
    Ampharos (Static, Volt Switch)
    Stunfisk (Static, T-wave immune, tank)
    Vileplume (Effect Spore, Giga Drain, Aromatherapy, Synthesis, etc)
    Tangela (Regenerator, Giga Drain, defensive wall)
    Arbok (Shed Skin, Defensive Coil set should work)
    Gurdurr (Guts, Drain Punch, resists dark)
    Lickilicky (Own Tempo, Wall)
    Purugly (Own Tempo, Fake Out, Uturn)
    Eelectross (Volt Switch)
    Probopass (Steel trapper, Volt Switch, resist dark, wall defenses)
    Scyther (U-Turn)
    Whirlipede (Poison Point, Spikes, T-Spikes, even acces to multi hit stab moves with 2x on Liepard)
    Ferroseed (Iron Barbs, SR, Spikes, Bullet Seed Stab, etc.
    Golem/Rhydon (T-wave immune, Rock Blast)
    Zebstrika (LightningRod/Motor Drive, Volt-Switch)
    Raichu (LightningRod/Static, VoltSwitch)

    Any defensive walls like Alomomola naturally won't give any fucks.

    Anyway to recap my findings in a nutshell, anything in a stallish nature can easily deal with Liepard. There are still pokemon that can be used in the offensive spectrum as well to deal with it (notably volt-turners, hazard layers(ferro, whirl), bulky grounds with multi-hits, Gurdurr and probably other things that I haven't covered.

    In my conclusion, I think Liepard is clearly a threat to more offensive orientated teams although it's still at a disadvantage while throwing down below coin flip %s and any defensive mon can set up on it or not give any fucks about it while there are still some offensive answers to this pokemon. So I'd personally be against the suspect of Liepard or the strategy itself.

    Note: Someone referenced Sandveil Ban as removal of being luckbased, but it was removed more so for the fact that it was an extension of the evasion clause. The difference between Sandveil and Liepard comparrison is that when Liepard Swaggers or T-waves you, you are able to switch out, while with Sandveil Gliscor, it is not the case. A simpler example is: Double team is banned while Flash is not.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2013
  18. Nicehat

    Nicehat PO client damage calc: preview.tinyurl.com/o8e7hss

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    In terms of "devolves the game into luck" it's only a matter of how badly than whether it does or not. Even without Prankster it wouldn't change the fact that relying on Parafusion would still be a strategy that could hand you wins off of coinflips no matter how well your opponent played. Wouldn't people still find it offensive that you can pick up a free KO just by winning enough coinflips? I mean, Liepard already outspeeds pretty much the entire unscarfed metagame with Speed investment even without Prankster so it's not like losing Prankster would impact its ability to hax you out that much anyway, and losing Swagger would just mean that the Liepard user would just have to get even luckier to hax you out (possibly even use Sand Attack?), it wouldn't stop them from trying.

    The thread OP says to discuss the possibility of Liepard being banned from the Wifi NU tier. Maybe these objections would be relevant if it was a Confusion suspect thread or a Prankster suspect thread, but if we're talking about banning Liepard then I see no reason why talking about how it can be dealt with without relying on luck is a problem. Finally, you are NOT the world. Just because someone said something in BIG BOLD PRINT doesn't mean that everyone reading and participating in the thread thinks that, nor does it make it true. After all, if "everyone agreed that Liepard was not broken but the strategy of Prankster plus Swagger and Foul Play was", then why would this be a Liepard suspect discussion thread and not a Prankster/Swagger/Foul Play discussion thread?
    I also was under the impression that people wanted to ban it because "it turns every match into a coinflip" when the reality is that it only does that if you aren't properly prepared, and that even if you aren't it's still not a guaranteed loss anyway. Most threatening Pokemon don't need to rely on luck to crush you if you don't bother preparing for them, and most threatening Pokemon also don't need to rely on luck to win after you eliminate their counters. I don't see how having to win coinflips to take advantage of this is more broken or more annoying than just winning 99% after dealing with your opponent.

    Run a Dark resist. Klinklang, Gurdurr, Shiftry, Cacturne, whatever. I don't see a major difference between your "a Rain team should run a non-water-type physical attacker that can KO Mantine" and "a Hyper Offensive team should run a bulky-ish Pokemon or Dark resist to deal with Liepard". It's not like Klinklang (or even Probopass or Lickilicky, to be honest) are otherwise completely unusable Pokemon whose only purpose is to deal with Liepard, they have legitimately useful qualities for most offensive teams. If Liepard means you can't just run 6 frail sweepers and win then maybe you should just not use that style of team at all (or alternately, stop pretending that hyper offense is dead just because people started using Liepard). I don't think it's an unspoken rule that Hyper Offense needs to be easy to use, or even viable in every tier. The argument that Liepard/Prankster/whatever should be banned because it wrecks Hyper Offense is just as valid as when people try to get Nidoqueen banned from LU because "it wrecks Stall, especially when they don't run Pokemon to try and cover it".

    And how bad is it when your opponent's luck is bad? They Swagger you, and you proceed to hit them every time and sweep them with a free +2 boost (or at worst, you get a free kill). Besides, it's not even a 45% to win, it's just a 45% to maybe get one KO. If your opponent is lucky enough to hit enough of those 45% coin flips to 5-0 you then it's just the luck of the draw, and being haxed out isn't something isolated to just Liepard. I can pull out plenty of logs where I win or lose directly because of timely crits or full Paralysis or other sources of terrible luck, does that mean that those too are too luck-based and that we should ban them? (Of course it doesn't.) It's also not like Liepard is all upside; it costs a slot, so if you're always relying on the chance to screw your opponent you're also playing with a 5-Pokemon team for the majority of the match. It's also not particularly useful for anything aside from trying to hax your opponent out with Swagger.

    The suspect thread is discussing Liepard, so I discussed Liepard. I don't see why this is such a terrible thing to do considering the title of the thread is "Suspect Discussion - Liepard". Especially considering pokemonnerd's post I got the impression that talking about any combination ban of Paralysis/Confusion/Prankster/whatever would be more off-topic than talking about the actual suspected Pokemon.
    There's also the fact that my post wasn't even specifically directed at you, nor was it specifically directed at others, so I don't really see why you interpreted it that way.

    Finally, apart from this response, I'd like to point out that Confuse Ray and its ilk can in fact actually serve a competitive use; they can act as pseudo-phazing moves, by discouraging your opponent from staying in. This means you can run them to, for example, discourage something like Simipour from setting up on your Golduck.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2013
  19. Gl4ss

    Gl4ss Just a little sarcastic

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    I didn't make the post in bold, nor did I intend to respond specifically to you but someone requested your points be addressed to I addressed them. This is a Liepard discussion thread but banning Liepard doesn't even solve the problem we had with Liepard, it only moves it on to Murkrow. I'd like to keep Liepard in the tier, it's a good addition, I think we can agree on that. I'm of the belief that this is a Liepard thread rather than a general Sub/Swagger/Foul Play thread because we were complaining about Liepard in the NU thread. Makes sense, it's the most common abuser.

    Regarding confusion's use in Pseudo-hazing, that's not a mechanical purpose. It doesn't kick in every turn and for most of us we'd never even consider using it in that way unless we had a totally free moveslot. If Haze had 50% accuracy I don't think I would use it though the rate of recurrence is nice since Confusion lasts. It's not a reliable strategy, I'm not trying to say that it is, but it will beat people sometimes by virtue of luck. It will do so often enough that I think the combination of Prankster/Sub/Swagger/Foul Play is uncompetitive. Not any one of those alone, but those combined. Not just on Liepard, but on anything that can run the combination. You can make an argument that the whole game is luck, but as the banning of Sand Veil and Snow cloak shows, we've had issues with that kind of thing before. If we do decide to alter the way we deal with the combination I don't know how we would intend to do so as of yet. Personally I'd like some sort of complex ban but those are rarely called for
     
  20. Django

    Django UNCHAINED

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    ban cats
     
  21. Big Bad Booty Daddy

    Big Bad Booty Daddy Big Poppa Pump

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    Most of these pokemon COULD be good counters, but not many of them are reliable. Not biased, just true.
     
  22. ZodiaK

    ZodiaK Get the fuck off my porch

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    @ Gl4ss, I'm not trying to put you on the spotlight or anything but if you read my post, two posts before yours, I addressed your following quote. This also applies to anyone else trying to use this argument unless you feel what I'm going to post is unfactual.

    Found on Initial Suspect Discussion: Sand Veil & Snow Cloak
     
  23. DelanHaar6

    DelanHaar6 Member

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    I've been following this thread for the past few days and I'd like to counter some of the points against continuing to allow the Prankster+Swagger+Foul Play strategy.

    This is true. The whole reason that this discussion is going on is that the Prankster+Swagger+Foul Play+Whatever strategy has exceeded the limit for how bad is too bad. Gl4ss and others have been consistently arguing that the 45% chance and subsequent 50% chances of hitting yourself in confusion caused by Prankster Swagger, which is very difficult to avoid, crosses that limit and moves into the realm of uncompetitiveness. As has been mentioned before, there are precedents for these kinds of decisions in Sand Veil and Snow Cloak, and to a certain extent Moody and Evasion Clause. The PO community is not willing to permit overly luck-based strategies (with success rates of only 20% per turn sometimes) that leave the outcomes of matches purely up to chance on purpose, and I personally agree with this direction. I am not entirely sure how the situation should be resolved, nor do I play NU, but after carefully reading the thread thus far, I believe due to the principle of promoting a competitive metagame that action should be taken to nullify this strategy.


    Edit: with regard to this quote (which I don't quite know how to re-format appropriately):

    Please don't compare Sand Veil and Snow Cloak's miss chances with stuff like Confusion. You can switch out to heal confusion - Sand Veil and Snow Cloak keep your evasion boosted, and you cannot deal with it by just switching your Pokémon out.

    With Prankster+Swagger, switching still doesn't solve the issue, as the Prankster abuser can simply Swagger again, and might have gotten up a Sub on the switch.

    Discussion of Liepard been going on, and the general consensus is to not ban it. What is now happening is that people are trying to resolve the underlying issue of the luck-based movset that caused it to be brought up as a possible suspect in the first place. Maybe a separate thread would be appropriate, but I see no issue with continuing to discuss the controversial strategy here for the time being. Where the discussion takes place is up to the tier leaders, and thus far they have permitted the discussion to develop here.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2013
  24. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    If so many people want a complex ban I(and probably Cased as well) can definitely at least think about it. Just because the discussion's about Liepard itself doesn't mean another resolution besides only banning Liepard(or Prankster) can't come out of it. It's just that we'd rather not resort to that unless the vast majority of the player base wants it, which at least isn't apparent right now. Double negatives suck but I hope you know what I mean. Meanwhile, keep trying to find ways to play against it or debunk the things other people find, I like it.

    Also, good job keeping the discussion on track. Maybe I'll actually be able to post about Liepard next time!
    Having to stay at least a little neutral all the time sucks.
     
  25. Artemisa

    Artemisa Well-Known Member

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    Just a question. If there is a ban on the combination of prankster + swagger + thunder wave, will affect the rest of the tiers or just NU.
     
  26. Tyki

    Tyki Change

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    Currently just NU. Though I'm personally hoping for it to be in LU too due to the recent influx of Liepard there as well.
     
  27. two sides of one coin

    two sides of one coin sick of all her shit

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    You have ignored Gl4ss when he said these so I will reiterate for you:
    1. Bastiodon and Alomomola are not candidates for a hard HO team and so do not affect the points being made here.
    2. Liepard is not being suspected for brokenness it is being suspected for uncompetitiveness. There is a big difference.

    Personally, I'm pro-ban as I dislike luck in any form but reading through this post really stood out for me.
    P.S. I love how you insulted Nikitas' English when it's not even his native language, the irony of you insulting his education is just so rich.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2013
  28. Arceus_17

    Arceus_17 Avoid eye contact

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    English is also not my native language and I do not swear in every sentence. But we have already gone through that, I honestly don't see any reason why would you come up with that subject again and I also don't understand what do you mean by "insulting his language". Actually if there was anyone who "insulted" it was certainly not me. So don't victimize him.

    Anyway, let's get straight to what really matters..

    Define me "candidates" for a hard HO team. If the "candidates" have to be 6 offensive powerhouses with no defensive presence, then it's an extremely unbalanced team, and it's no surprise at all if a Liepard manages to Single-handed defeat that team most of the time. It's the same reason why (let's say in OU) a team with no steal types loses 99% of the time against the recent "Dragon-Spam" strategy. Should Dragons be limited to a certain number per team? I don't think so.

    Like many of us prooved before, there are many Liepard counters in the tier (and outside of it): I'm going to make a list of all Pokémon that most of the time (unless you get absurdely unlucky) beat Sub + Swagger Liepard 1 vs 1:

    - Magcargo (Defensive)
    - Tangela
    - Probopass
    - Bastiodon
    - Mandibuzz
    - Lairon
    - KlingKlang
    - Klang (Eviolite)
    - Alomomola
    - Lickylicky (Special)
    - Whimsicott (Speedy Taunter/Encorer)
    - Pelliper (Defensive)
    - Whirlipede (Eviolite)
    - Weezing
    - Piloswine (Eviolite and Icicle Spear)


    As I've previously mentioned , any Pokémon with either a great Defense stat, a resistance to Foul Play, low attacking stats, access to multi attacking moves or access to a recovery move will defeat Liepard, I would say, 95% of the time.

    I keep my point: The infamous Prankster + Swagger + Foul Play is only dangerous if you refuse to prepare your teams for it. Therefore i mantain my statement: Liepard should not be banned.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2013
  29. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    First off, once again - let's not insult people / rage, save that for the Ranting thread.
    Second off, you say "unless you get absurdly lucky"
    That's the thing, it can happen - it will happen - it has happened.
    None of these are secure checks / counters.
    Even Arceus-Fighting isn't a counter. (Not to get far off the topic)
    This combination on something like Liepard, with the proper tools, is plain-and-simple uncompetitive.
     
  30. Nikitas

    Nikitas Member

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    Last edited: Mar 10, 2013
  31. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    it would affect NEU.
     
  32. Nicehat

    Nicehat PO client damage calc: preview.tinyurl.com/o8e7hss

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    I thought it was bad enough when people assumed that the person using the suspect had perfect prediction while you had absolutely none, but now we're assuming the person using the suspect has perfect luck as well? Of course it matters how often it happens; nobody says that Terrakion has no counters because it can crit everything to death, and nobody says that Starmie lacks counters because Ice Beam can freeze or TBolt can para whatever switches in. (I've heard enough stories of Jirachi flinching Magnezones to death but I don't see anyone saying that Magnezone doesn't beat Jirachi either.) Similarly, if Liepard has a 5% chance (or some other miniscule chance) to beat a hypothetical counter then I don't see why that invalidates that counter at all.

    Although what you said about this point was obviously hyperbole I'm going to assert right now in the interest of truth that Arceus-Fighting does in fact counter Liepard. (please don't argue about this here, if you actually want to debate this for some reason I'd be fine doing so in PM)

    P.S.: The term uncompetitive is the most meaningless word that has ever been applied to suspect discussions and Pokemon battling in general since "legendary" (possibly "broken" and "overcentralizing" too).

    Why should Hyper Offense be some sacred cow that has to be viable all the time and never has to change? Is it okay if a threat C exists that a Stall team cannot beat unless you get lucky or change the core concept of your team? What about for a Baton Pass team, or a Prankster Riolu team, or a Trick Room team, or a Shadow Tag-Memento chaining team? Is it okay if they also have threats that they can't win against? It's not even like offense itself is completely unviable (the very healthy usage of Sawk and Samurott is clear evidence of that), it's just one niche subset of offense that has to adapt or change to deal with Liepard. Why is that such a big deal?

    Also I said this above already but seriously what exactly does "uncompetitive" even mean and why is something being that such a bad thing?

    Forgive my ignorance, but exactly how is Liepard ever beating Bastiodon, Probopass, or defensive Tangela ever? Defensive Lairon is also almost never losing, and Weezing also beats it or forces it out a vast majority of the time (+6 Foul Play is only a 3HKO, so Liepard has to get pretty ridiculously lucky to win, and it's not like Liepard can accomplish anything against Weezing without taking that much risk anyway), as do Klinklang and Klang.

    Even granted that a Pokemon needs at least two of them, it's not like there's any shortage considering pretty much every Steel-type has great physical bulk and most Rock Blast users are very bulky as well.

    Besides, most physical attackers win against Liepard 55% of the time when Liepard tries to beat them. That doesn't stop some people from saying that Liepard still beats every Pokemon on Hyper Offense consistently.

    P.S.: I don't get why people complain that Liepard takes very little skill to use. It's not like Sawk, Samurott, Mesprit, Musharna, or most standard Pokemon in general are particularly difficult to use in a team or play with either.
     
  33. Nikitas

    Nikitas Member

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  34. SilverPT

    SilverPT Member

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    I don't see why people keep insisting that those "counters" are weak to ground/fight moves if Liepard's moveset in question is Sub, Swagger, T-Wave and Foul Play. If it doesn't have this set, it's not that letal. :/
     
  35. Nikitas

    Nikitas Member

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    I am posting too much and I apologise. Ground and Fighting are two of the best attacking types in the game, making a double weakness to them very lethal and quite a downside. Also, Diglett eats for breakfast most of the so-called Liepard counters thanks to its Trapping ability and the combo of EQ+Reversal(it can also Cripple Alomo and Tangela with Toxic) - ofc diglett is mostly trash outside of that lol (feel free to ignore this sentence =]). Do not forget that each team consists of six pokemon and not one. Liepard's "counters" need way more support to be kept alive (most lack reliable recovery and can be worn down with repeated switches and confhits) than Liepard itself does. Just from this you can see that even a balanced team can struggle against a team built around abusing Liepard (and not just using it in "oh shit" cases and for paraspreading). Stall teams are the only ones that would not suffer from that thing thanks to hazard-stacking, status curing moves/abilities and phazing capabilities.
     
  36. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I don't want to fully jump into the discussion yet but I feel the need to nitpick some things.

    You're comparing a 6.25% chance to a 50% chance, which I pray you realize doesn't hold up at all in any real discussion. There are counters to Liepard that can beat it barring extremely bad luck(Klinklang, Bastiodon, Throh off the top of my head), but there are also way more that simply flat out lose to it that 50% of the time because of the fact that most things in the tier do not like getting hit by themselves with double their attacking power. Pokemon like Alomomola can lose if Liepard does decide to invest in some semblance of bulk(thanks to Prankster and 106 speed it definitely can), simply because Foul Play gets very powerful at +4 or more. This isn't a slim chance like a critical hit, it's literally a coin flip every time you try and attack. The comparison to Jirachi doesn't hold either, as it has to waste a turn and be faster than the opponent to try and flinch it to death, while confusion goes on while you're free to move. They're incomparable.



    To avoid going on a huge tangent that has nothing to do with this thread, I'm just going to say that you stating this means you either have very little experience in NU or just have no idea what you're talking about. All of these pokemon either require an ample amount of prediction(Sawk, Samurott) or a fairly great team behind them(Mesprit, Musharna) to bring out their full potential. The reason why people say Liepard takes no real skill to use is because it doesn't. It's entirely dependent on either the opposing pokemon being a wall with no offensive presence so it can't break subs(i.e. Alomomola) or the opposing pokemon having enough attack where when it hits itself it does massive damage.

    It really all goes back to the fact that a coin flip is a rather huge chance of winning or losing a match. Even if you can only get one kill, the fact of the matter is that the pokemon Liepard took down may have been the integral part of the team that's keeping you from steamrolling it.

    Even with all that being said, to be completely honest I could care less whether it was banned or not. This is so you guys can talk it out.

    This just bothers me because it's inconsistent. Most pokemon that can beat Liepard with no worries about losing have greater than a 95% chance to win(you mentioned 5% earlier), if you're going to reduce something that luck based to a solid percent. It doesn't really hurt or help your argument, it's just sitting there as its own little useless side comment, which is why I'm saying this in hide tags.[/HIDE]
     
  37. Nicehat

    Nicehat PO client damage calc: preview.tinyurl.com/o8e7hss

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    The reason why things like Lairon, Probopass, Tangela, and Bastiodon are hard counters is because Foul Play does basically nothing to them even if Liepard Swaggers them to +6 successfully (which is not that easy to do). If +6 Foul Play is a 7HKO then that means Liepard is going to have to get at least 6 or 7 free turns in a row from hax to win, something that is not particularly likely.

    I disagree. I don't think it's a particularly big deal that Liepard has a chance to beat Hyper Offense by itself when many other offensive strategies (even as simple as running one bulky Pokemon as your SR setter) fare much better against Liepard anyway. I still don't see what makes Hyper Offense so much more important to keep viable in the metagame (note that this is just Hyper Offense, many other offensive strategies are still viable and are very good in NU) than something like heavy Stall or like Baton Pass.

    I agree that Ground and Fighting weaknesses are a definite weak point that can be exploited. However, I don't really agree that Liepard's counters need more support than Liepard does; not only are Liepard's counters much more bulky than Liepard itself, but they also often have either Leftovers Recovery and SR resist negating any damage from Stealth Rocks allowing them to not be worn down easily or Regenerator which makes it easy to heal considering Foul Play is really only very dangerous to most Pokemon that aren't weak to dark and have massive attack stats after a Swagger. It also helps that Fighting and Ground counters are not that rare in NU (Mesprit, Musharna, Misdreavus, Tangela, etc.)

    I was referring to counters (i.e. Arceus_17's list minus some of the more questionable Pokemon), not every Pokemon in general. Obviously if the chance to lose is 50% it makes a difference; that's the exact point I was making, that a 5% to lose is not the same as a 50% (actually 45% but I digress) to lose, and that the two should be treated differently rather than just being waved off as "the 5% still happens anyway" as Finch did. Even if Liepard has the hypothetical ability to get Lairon to hit itself in confusion 7 times in a row to KO it with Foul Play it doesn't mean that Lairon isn't a solid counter.
    In the spirit that the comparison was being made (that just because a Pokemon can hypothetically beat a counter if it gets extraordinarily lucky doesn't mean it's not a solid counter) I felt that it was a valid comparison, although perhaps a bit exaggerated.

    I think there's a double standard between "it takes skill to have Sawk bring out its full potential" and "all Liepard does is Swagger and win". If you say that all Liepard needs to do is ensure that whatever it's facing is either a sponge or a physical attacker you can hax out and all you have to do is click Swagger, I don't really see how that differs from saying that all Sawk needs to do is ensure that it's not facing against a Fighting resist and then click Close Combat, or that all Musharna needs to do is ensure that opposing Dark- and Bug- types are eliminated and then click Calm Mind a lot. Obviously these aren't "optimal" strategies or using these Pokemon to their "fullest potential", but just mindlessly clicking Swagger also isn't using Liepard to its full potential either. Sometimes it might be more optimal to TWave if you can't risk your opponent sweeping you with a +2 attack boost or if you think your opponent will switch to a counter, sometimes it's better to sub first to scout your opponent's sets and actions. Even after you successfully pull off a Swagger, you still have to decide whether you want to TWave, put up a Sub, Swagger again, or just Foul Play your opponent. I'm not saying that these are incredibly difficult or important decisions, but it's not like there are zero decisions that need to be made when using Liepard if you want to use it to its fullest potential.

    Also Alomomola's unboosted Waterfall is breaking Liepard's sub every time unless you run very close to Max HP/Max Def+ (obviously after a Swagger it always breaks regardless of what you put in Liepard's EVs though).[/HIDE]
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2013
  38. ExtremeSpeed

    ExtremeSpeed ExtremeSpeed Ambipom Plz

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    Sorry if this has already been said (tl:dr) but I think the combination of Prankster and Swagger / Confuse Ray / etc should be banned from all tiers. I think banning Prankster entirely would be utterly unfair to Swift Swim teams. I also think that banning confusion on its own is ridiculous considering how much of an unreliable strategy it is. However it seems that by using the Prankster movesets, using confusion leaves every single pokemon unreliable as a counter to pokemon that can't even damage them using their own stats. There's a reason that Whimsicott gets used in ubers more frequently than it should. It's a cheap trick that stops any team in its tracks.

    But it probably won't get banned, looking at the few comments I read. So brb, making a Swag-Eye for UU.
     
  39. Nikitas

    Nikitas Member

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    I will let Pnerd answer to the rest, seeing as you r reffering to him. Btw, your logic is terribly flawed if everyone has to run a pokemon from a 6-pokemon list in order to reliably face Liepard 1v1 or at least two pokemon in order to reliaby face Liepard and probably a friend. That is called overcentralizing because it kills variety. Last but not least, Liepard CAN be broken. If it gets absurdly lucky then it can beat many of its soft-counters with ease. And something Broken isnt something that just wont die by anything/will kill everything, its something that can destroy the majority of the tier with little to no support, see Excadrill: Countered by Skarmory and Gliscor, they could STILL lose to 2 consecutive flinches from +2 Rock Slide, and checked by Azumarill, Feraligatr, Breloom (unorthodox coz tech wasnt released), Conk, the Hitmon family. Why was it broken? Too few counters and checks rarely found in OU apart from Azu and Conk at that time.
     
  40. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    The comparison you just made makes no sense. The fact is that Swagger works on any pokemon at any time, regardless of the conditions you are currently in. It has around the same effect regardless of the pokemon you are using it on, which is that it gives you the chance of a free turn. The decision to thunder wave or swagger is blatantly obvious in nearly every situation you will ever be in since you want to get confusion chances rolling ASAP unless you have an already boosted sweeper in front of your face, or an almost fainted pokemon just sitting out on the field. While the choice to use Close Combat or pray that you can hit something super effectively with Stone Edge or toxic a Musharna switch in when using Sawk is much harder.

    No matter what situation you are in with Liepard, clicking Swagger gives you a chance to come out on top, whereas something like Sawk just doesn't have that luxury. And yes, if there are no dark or bug types out on the enemy team, it is almost as simple for Musharna to just start using Calm Mind, especially if nothing with Toxic is alive. Anyone with experience could tell you this, and using Liepard really is as brainless as people who are pro ban say it is. Does this alone make it broken though? Of course not.

    I'd actually like to end this soon since it seems everyone has laid out their arguments(to the point where we'd just be going in circles, at least), but we have to keep it open for at least another week. So try and find more things that can "assuredly" beat Liepard or keep explaining why it's so unbearable or broken.

    edit: Also if I didn't respond to a point you made I'm either trying to be as neutral as possible, I understand what you were saying or agree.

    Why the hell would you ever use waterfall when Scald can burn something and not make you complete fodder for any sweeper in the tier?[/HIDE]
     
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