1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Guest, PO has ceased our separate tiering and adopted Smogon tiers for SM. More information and updates here.

    Dismiss Notice

[BW2] Suspect Discussion: Liepard

Discussion in 'Gen 5 NU' started by Big Bad Booty Daddy, Mar 7, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2012
    Messages:
    2,463
    Likes Received:
    162
    In Blaziken's case, it wasn't the ability that got banned. It was Blaziken. If you ban Prankster, it'll cause the likes of Whimsicott, Murkrow, Sableye and Volbeat to simply plummet in usage, ruining their niches. This is a lot more complex than that.

    While I can't actually play on PO currently due to internet complexities, I'm no idiot, and I can see that Liepard is seriously screwing people over by removing the competitive aspect from the game, hence stagnating it and ruining the fun for everyone. Although I do wonder how it took this long for people to start spamming Liepard (seriously, two years?), the clearest option in my mind is to simply ban confusion inducing moves.

    Those that have a chance of confusing the user, like Rock Climb and Psybeam, are perfectly fine, because they're actually attacks, both of which are rare (the latter is never even used), and Liepard has access to neither. In the same vein as Double Team, it's the confusion inducing move that 'puts the battle in the hands of lady luck', as someone else (I think Gl4ss) so eloquently said.

    So yeah, I reckon banning moves that solely induce confusion would be the best option, as aside from in tandem with this bullshit 'strategy' they are NEVER seen, and hence won't be missed.

    EDIT: Sorry for the backtracking. I missed out a page. xD
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2013
  2. Professor Oak

    Professor Oak same Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2010
    Messages:
    3,580
    Likes Received:
    2,375
    PO Trainer Name:
    Professor Oak
    Just posting to correct the calculations made in the Potential Suspect Discussion topic.

    It appears that Kalashnikov's calculator is incorrect. Many people seem to think that Foul Play on a 31 Atk IV, 0 Atk EV, negative natured Natu does ~21% max.

    Just tested it on PO and confirmed with luungoc's calc, and this is the correct calculation (note: The nature used is Bold):
    0 Atk Liepard Foul Play vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Natu (+Def) : 29.58% - 34.86% (3 hits to KO after Stealth Rock)

    With a 0 Atk IV on Natu, this is the correct calculation:
    0 Atk Liepard Foul Play vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Natu (+Def) : 23.24% - 27.46% (3-4 hits to KO)
     
  3. Nikitas

    Nikitas Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2010
    Messages:
    612
    Likes Received:
    11
    I have used Kalasnikov's calculator for all of my calcs with Foul Play too. This means that Bastiodon and a ton of other pokemons are taking more damage from Foul Play than I had anticipated.
     
  4. two sides of one coin

    two sides of one coin sick of all her shit

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2012
    Messages:
    1,255
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hence proving that Liepard isn't as easily walled by such walls as some would have us think...*glares at anti-ban brigade*
     
  5. MewTheDestroyer

    MewTheDestroyer God

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2012
    Messages:
    286
    Likes Received:
    1
    PO Trainer Name:
    MewTheDestroyer
    Congrats in getting to be tier leaders! Ok, on to Liepard. Liepard is a lot more luck based than every other luck element. It has Prankster, Swagger, and T-Wave. All annoying things. Now, do I think it needs to be banned? Yes. There is no solid check to Liepard, and unless you don't get haxed right away, it will ruin your entire day.
     
  6. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2012
    Messages:
    2,463
    Likes Received:
    162
    Without that combination though, Liepard's just another NU pokemon, and it'll likely sink back down to NEU where it belongs. I reckon banning one of the moves in that combination is a better idea, as it's less impacting on the tier.

    Swagger's the biggest assfuck out those three, and if you remove it, not only does it reduce the chance of being haxed from 75% to 25% (I think), it also nerfs Foul Play, which is the main problem.
     
  7. Nikitas

    Nikitas Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2010
    Messages:
    612
    Likes Received:
    11
    I would also agree with Swagger+Prankster removal, even though im a bit of an outsider. Btw, first Confusion roll: 1/2 you attack, then Paralyze roll: 3/4 from that 1/2 to attack, therefore 37.5% chances of hitting with an 100acc move.
     
  8. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2012
    Messages:
    2,463
    Likes Received:
    162
    Ahh, that's it. I just calc'd it wrong. xD

    And I think it's just confusion moves that wanna go, rather than Prankster. If Prankster was banned, other pokemon that legitimately use them for competitive (although still cheap) methods would plummet in usage.
     
  9. tennisace

    tennisace pretty hurts

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2012
    Messages:
    66
    Likes Received:
    21
    There are a few main issues with this whole argument to ban Liepard from NU.

    1. While this one has already been addressed, I feel the need to emphasize just how strongly I feel about this: Liepard is not by any expanse of the imagination broken, and under no circumstances should it be banned. By utilizing the search function in the teambuilder, you can see that 41 Pokemon have access to this commonly used set. One of these Pokemon, Murkrow, is a fellow Prankster. In addition to that, many of them are either a) incredibly bulky or b) incredibly fast. In the NU tier alone, Electrode can easily perform the role that Liepard does, outspeeding the majority of the tier with minimal investment. That said, if Pokemon Online were to ban Liepard (and subsequently, Murkrow), Electrode could easily fill this niche.

    Liepard has plenty of viable roles on a team. This is especially true now that Liepard's Sub Swagger set has risen to such high usage. You can run sets such as weather support or Nasty Plot sweeper, and it will run more effectively now than ever before because everyone has grown to expect Sub Swagger. Is it annoying? Yeah. I've lost games because of it before too. But is Liepard, in itself, broken? No more than Sableye, Whimsicott, or Murkrow.

    2. Playing with this set is such a double-edged sword. Yes, unfortunate hax due to Swagger/Thunder Wave can win games for the person who is using Liepard. However, in my experience at the very least, it can also very easily win games. If you manage to break through confusion and defeat Liepard, congratulations! You have just gotten a Swords Dance boost without wasting a turn to set up. You can proceed to hit things hard.

    3. Liepard is obviously a threat to Hyper Offense. That means that before you go off making a Hyper Offense team in NU, you need to make sure to account for Liepard. If this is difficult to do, that sucks. But you can't say something over-centralizes the entire NU metagame when it is a huge threat to one playstyle. Scarf Mienshao in UU is a huge threat to offensive teams because it can literally one-shot the majority of the tier with a Reckless Jolly Hi Jump Kick. Before you click the find battle button with a UU team, you should probably make sure you brought something that can take a couple of hits from Mienshao. This is no different from bringing a Hyper Offensive team to an NU match in the metagame.

    Ultimately, I don't care what happens to Liepard. I don't find it over-centralizing by any means. More importantly, as a Pokemon, Liepard is not broken. Do I agree that its Swagger set is a nuisance? Of course I do. I just don't see why it is necessary to ban a legitimate (albeit bothersome) playstyle. Yeah, it's pretty luck reliant. So is clicking the ever-infuriating Focus Blast and Stone Edge. So is Scald with its seemingly 100% burn chance against you and 0% burn chance for you. So is Serene Grace Dunsparce for fuck's sake. I don't know. Just thought I'd throw in my two cents.
     
  10. Nikitas

    Nikitas Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2010
    Messages:
    612
    Likes Received:
    11
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2013
  11. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2013
    Messages:
    424
    Likes Received:
    11
    PO Trainer Name:
    Liarliarpantsonfire
    I might be able to help you with a few good checks to SubSwagger Liepard. My personal favorite is Natu. Not only does it have amazing utility thanks to Magic Bounce, which blocks all entry hazards, Taunt users, status moves (like T-Wave and Swagger :p), Encore and a lot more. If you don't have to use the below averages spinners in NU just to get rid of Stealth Rock that's a great advantage.

    Second, it's great for switching in against pokemon like Sawk and Gurdurr thanks to his typing giving him a 4x resistance. Also, Grass types don't stand a chance because even Sleep Powder gets deflected.

    Another great thing about Natu is the Dual Screens + U-turn combo. This has great utility on both offensive and stall teams: It allows you to set up easier with sweepers while it helps stall teams to take hits a lot better as well as blocking hazards.

    But to the point: Liepard can't touch standard Natu as Foul Play does around 25% without Reflect so with Reflect it can't do any significant damage while you can always use Roost. You can easily give up on U-turn and use Night Shade instead to counter Liepard as it will always break the substitute and Liepard only has Leftovers to recover.

    So there you have it, a great counter to Liepard that gets way less usage than it should. However, Natu isn't the only check to Liepard. Lairon, Bastiodon and Nosepass all take very little damage from Foul Play, and the former two can use Roar to get rid of the substitute and rack up hazard damage. Nosepass has Magic Coat to block Swagger, gets T-wave to heavily cripple Liepard and can easily break its subs with Power Gem. They all get Stealth Rock for even more utility.

    I definitely agree that Liepard can be an annoying pokemon to face, but it's lack of reliable recovery and weakness to all entry hazards as well as any status (!) can make it alot easier to deal with if you respond correctly.
     
  12. Professor Oak

    Professor Oak same Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2010
    Messages:
    3,580
    Likes Received:
    2,375
    PO Trainer Name:
    Professor Oak
    Please note the suspect under discussion - that is Liepard. If Liepard (or, rather, the combination of Swagger and Prankster on Liepard) is deemed broken, Liepard is the Pokemon that should be banned from NU.

    I don't see why people are wanting a complex ban on Swagger / Prankster (and in some cases, Thunder Wave or Substitute as well), when there have been very little complaints about the other abusers of that combination (those in NU being Whimsicott, Murkrow, Illumise, Volbeat and Riolu). If some of these other abusers also end up getting banned for the same reason, then perhaps looking into the source of the problem is then the better option.

    There's no need to over-complicate matters. Stop asking for complex bans when a simple ban achieves the result to better effect.


    Besides that rant, you all need to actually think about Treecko's post - it is one of the best posts in this thread.

    Also use Toxic Spikes - all of the aforementioned users of Swagger + Prankster are weak to them with the exception of Murkrow. Seriously, try it.
     
  13. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2012
    Messages:
    1,137
    Likes Received:
    854
    PO Trainer Name:
    Afro Smash
    Would we be able to create a suspect discussion on Swagger + Prankster being banned? I think Gl4ss has already said everything i'd like to say, Without access to swagger and prankster, Liepard isn't broken, simple as. With it however it has a chance to run through teams with complete luck, i'd don't know what sort of player would want to keep something that relies solely on luck to be effective, in competitive pokemon, unless they were abusers of it themselves. I can't see how anything bad comes from banning the combo, except that a few people have to try and employ skill to win their games. A complex ban is preferable as i've seen Sableye achieve the same feat in UU many times.

    If a complex ban isn't possible (for whatever reason) i would like to see Liepard banned just to put a stop to the hax shenanigans, at least temporarily, until people start looking elsewhere for their trolling joy. I don't feel Liepard should be banned because some people might genuinely want to use it for something like nasty plot for sweeping, fake out, sucker punch and u-turn for scouting + light damage, or other prankster purposes like weather + T-Wave. However if banning Liepard is what's necessary to stop noobs haxing their way to wins, then so be it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2013
  14. Big Bad Booty Daddy

    Big Bad Booty Daddy Big Poppa Pump

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2012
    Messages:
    950
    Likes Received:
    877
    PO Trainer Name:
    -
    Alright the time for this thread is up, Pokemonnerd and I will discuss our opinions and within a day or two, the decision will be made of what we'll be doing. This thread will be locked until then.
     
  15. Big Bad Booty Daddy

    Big Bad Booty Daddy Big Poppa Pump

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2012
    Messages:
    950
    Likes Received:
    877
    PO Trainer Name:
    -
    We have decided NOT to ban Liepard.

    We will not ban Liepard, mostly because it is clearly not broken with its offensive power, and since this is a LIEPARD Suspect Discussion, a complex ban would not have been possible, since we were not suspecting any move and\or ability.
     
  16. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2010
    Messages:
    2,896
    Likes Received:
    888
    I realize the results of the mock poll I opened say that the majority would like to see Liepard banned, however I don't think I'm wrong in assuming that half of those votes were mainly due to Liepard being annoying for the tier to deal with, rather than actually being broken. It has plenty of straight counters that are viable without handling Liepard and a myriad of "checks" that can deal with it as well.

    You'll just have to deal with losing to luck once in a while. I assure you even without Liepard it would happen in some matches regardless. Does to me all the time.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.