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[Final] Machoke

Discussion in 'Gen 5 NU Analyses' started by Slowkii, Mar 17, 2013.

  1. Slowkii

    Slowkii Banned

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    On Wiki

    [​IMG]
    ==General==
    -80/70/60 defenses paired with eviolite isn't too bad, giving it some bulk, especially for NU.
    -Near Perfect Coverage.
    -Access to No Guard.
    -Access to eviolite.
    -Quite slow, although it is faster and has slightly less attack/bulk than Gurdurr.

    ==No Guard ==
    Machoke (F) @ Eviolite
    Trait: No Guard
    EVs: 92 HP / 252 Atk / 164 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - DynamicPunch
    - Ice Punch/ThunderPunch
    - Payback
    - Bullet Punch/Substitute

    Set Comments:
    While this set has great coverage, it is hard to chose between bulk or strength. While eviolite improves machoke's bulk, expert belt boosts his power. If you feel you need priority, bullet punch can be used. This set is great for receiving speed / attack boosts, from pokemon such as ninjask. It utterly destroys using dynamic punch, a 100% confusion, 100% Accuracy and 100 base power stab move. The speed EVs put you 1 point ahead of alomomola. The move Thunder Punch can be paired with Ice punch for a bolt beam variation, and payback is for coverage or Ghosts and Psychic.

    ==Bulk Up==
    Machoke (F) @ Eviolite
    Trait: No Guard
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Atk
    Adamant/Careful Nature (+Atk, -SAtk), (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - DynamicPunch
    - Payback
    - Ice Punch/ThunderPunch/Substitute
    - Bulk Up

    Set Comments:
    This set focuses on bulk, so the SDef help. Bulk up allows machoke to tank moves and KO pokemon easily. If you want to use guts, brick break is an option. Payback is for massive damage on things that EQ / DPunch wont hit hard, for example flying types / ghost types. If you see the flying type KOing you, switch out. Machoke uses bulk up to increase his defense meaning investments aren't really needed. Hp EVs also add to the bulk.

    ==RestTalk==
    Machoke (F) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Guts / No Guard
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Brick Break / Dynamic Punch
    - Payback
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk

    Set Comments:
    Rest talk machamp is quite viable. He can rest off damage and use sleep talk. Guts is in use due to sleep activating it, so dynamic punch cannot be used reliable. Brick Break is reliable STAB and payback is for ghosts / Psychics (If they don't KO first.) If you feel you like Dynamic Punch too much, you can run No Guard, but that will be taking away from your attack.

    ==Other Options==
    -Choice Band can function well.
    -Work Up can be used on a mixed set although it shouldn't really be used.
    -Choice band can be used, but outclassed by sawk and hariyama.
    -Variants of a subpunch set can be used, abusing dynamic punch's confusion.
    -Encore can be used to let Machoke use Bulk up, and other such options.

    ==Checks & Counters==
    In general, anything that can sleep machoke that is faster, E.G. Butterfree, can setup or kill. Haunter can trick the serup variants, and this cannot switch into nor go up against most boosted pokemon. As it does for most boosters, ditto works well, and you can even try dodrio. Most of NU's bulky waters can switch into Machoke to tank a hit, especially Alomomola thanks to Regenerator. NU's many bulky Psychic types can switch into Machoke with little to no fear. Musharna is a great example of this, being able to tank everything Machoke can throw at it while healing off damage with Moonlight. Lum Harvest Exeggutor is an even better example, being able to immediately heal DPunch's confusion and retaliate with a STAB Psychic. NU's Ghost Types can switch into a DPunch spamming Machoke with immunity, and either force it out or trick/burn/attack it. Standard Machoke is especially weak to status. However, Machoke can easily get around status with a Guts or Sleep Talk set. Pokemon using strong or even neutral Super Effective hits can usually KO a non boosted attack.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 24, 2013
  2. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    D:

    Sorry there Slowkii. I can hold off if you wanna analyse more stuffs?

    Now for some critique:

    Firstly, watch your spelling. There's a couple of typos here and there (No Gaurd, Gurrdur, etc).

    I don't see much point in those 216 Spd EVs. Are there any Max Speed base 40s in NU?

    The only maybe I can think of is Rhydon, who tends to go defensive rather than max Speed, apart from rare Rock Polish sets. I'd personally shoot for outrunning whatever Speed Armaldo runs, as Machoke's a pretty solid counter to it imo.

    As for the Choice Band set, I can think of a pokemon who walls it; Misdreavus. Without Payback, Machoke isn't doing jack to it. A ResTalk set with Guts isn't a horrible idea in OO, and I can't see a Specs set hitting anything significant. Basically all of the physical walls in NU are either weak to Fighting (Regirock, Probopass, etc) or resist Fire (Alomomola), making Fire Blast and Focus Blast largely redundant, as physical moves just eclipse them. SubPunch can definitely be done.

    Consider mentioning full SDef investment on the Bulk Up set. It'll help with Choke's survivability, although I'd still keep the Adamant nature.

    Other than that, I think you've got it. :3
     
  3. Slowkii

    Slowkii Banned

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    No no, you keep up your analysises! And yeah, it's dark :I

    I'll fix all that now :)
     
  4. Slowkii

    Slowkii Banned

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    OK I think that's done a dusted, but there's always room for improvement.
     
  5. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Whoa, wait up a sec. I only meant consider the SDef EVs, not have them take over. xD

    What I had in mind was 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Atk Adamant (or perhaps 16 Atk to hit a jump point), and probably only as a mention in the comments.

    Speaking of which, you're a little short on those. See if you can expand on that a bit?

    Food for thought:

    Explain why those EVs are listed, even if they're obvious (Max HP and Max Attack for tanking, etc)
    Explain what use each move has. Like, for example, DynamicPunch is fun to abuse because of its 100% chance of confusing the target, Ice Punch is great coverage alongside it against Grass, Dragon and Ground types. Earthquake doesn't hit much that DynamicPunch doesn't, but there are plenty of Electric-types in NU and it saves on DynamicPunch's PP (if needed). Stuff like that
    Discuss other things that can be done for those specific sets. You're onto the right sorta thing with discussing why you can use Guts instead of No Guard.

    Hope this helps?
     
  6. Slowkii

    Slowkii Banned

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    I've tried to fix, you're a great help :)
     
  7. Dr. Fuji

    Dr. Fuji Active Member

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    Spoovo speaks the truth here there is very little worth hitting with Earthquake over one of Machoke's other options for that reason I would replace it with Payback to give Machoke a move to use against Psychic and Ghost Types. Stone Edge is also a very good move for Machoke hitting Bug and Flying types that resist Fighting along with having a high crit rate and higher base power then either Ice/Thunderpunch.
     
  8. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Sadly though, Machoke doesn't get Stone Edge (only Champ does), meaning you'll have to resort to Rock Slide for that. If tat's the case, you might as well use Ice Punch, cause it hits those Flying types just as hard.
     
  9. Dr. Fuji

    Dr. Fuji Active Member

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    Good catch I didn't check just remembering from Machamp yeah I agree Ice/Thunderpunch do mostly outclass Rock Slide although it does still hit Bug Types hardest uncommon as they are.
     
  10. Slowkii

    Slowkii Banned

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    I would have put in Stone Edge, but its not there. I always write with teambuilder open lol
     
  11. Slowkii

    Slowkii Banned

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    No. It doesn't get stone edge. I'm no silly. And Close Combat is slashed over Dynamic Punch as is guts over No guard. They pair together.
     
  12. Slowkii

    Slowkii Banned

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    I know but...

     
  13. emac

    emac Emad

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    I can't see the CB set being better than something like CB sawk or some form of hariyama. Also that set is missing 4 evs. I think that the rest talk set would be much more useful, as sleep activates guts.
     
  14. Slowkii

    Slowkii Banned

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    I gave the 4 EVs and resttalk is mentioned in OO. And most pokemon can be outclassed anyway.
     
  15. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    That's the point of analyses though, Slowkii. You write what the pokemon can do that they aren't outclassed in.

    Choice Band Machoke does have the benefit of having some power in its DPunches, not to mention being able to spam them, but being locked into it isn't the best idea, as Misdreavus exists, and we all know how hard she is to kill. Give her some momentum and she's even worse.
     
  16. Slowkii

    Slowkii Banned

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    I see what you mean replacing choice band for rest talk.
     
  17. The Real Elmo

    The Real Elmo Caterpie hungers...

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    Righto, something to do other than approve!

    For the No Guard Set:
    What notable pokemon are you outspeeding with Jolly + 216 speed?
    You list Gurdurr and Rhyperior as examples. First off, if you are running speed on Gurdurr you are doing something wrong. Second, Rhyperior isn't even in NU, let alone LU. he be up in UU! As for his son, Rhydon, he has no business running speed either (especially with his godly Eviolite bulk)
    Personally, I would be using a set of EVs: 92 HP / 252 Atk / 164 Spd Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk).
    Neutral nature with 164 Speed EV's puts you 1 speed points above Alomomola, Adamant + 252 ev's maxes out your attack so you can cause as much damage as possible (which is the point of this set afterall) and the rest goes into HP for bulk.

    Also, slash Lum Berry in. It help a lot against status, especially against status leads (Like Butterfree)

    Bulk Up Set:
    Machoke would enjoy some priority, so slash Bullet Punch over EQ, or maybe even make BP the main choice as EQ isn't hitting much DPunch isn't.

    RestTalk Set:
    PLEASE remove the second EV set with max Speed. You are using this set so you can keep Machoke healthy and alive. You're gonna want a good amount of bulk for that.

    Other Options:
    Add Encore!

    Checks & Counters:
    This section needs a ton of work dude.

    On the Defensive:
    Most of NU's bulky waters can switch into Machoke to tank a hit, especially Alomomola thanks to Regenerator. NU's many bulky Psychic types can switch into Machoke with little to no fear. Musharna is a great example of this, being able to tank everything Machoke can throw at it while healing off damage with Moonlight. Lum Harvest Exeggutor is an even better example, being able to immediately heal DPunch's confusion and retaliate with a STAB Psychic. NU's Ghost Types can switch into a DPunch spamming Machoke with immunity, and either force it out or trick/burn/attack it. Standard Machoke is especially weak to status. However, Machoke can easily get around status with a Guts or Sleep Talk set.

    On the Offensive:
    Machoke is not the most bulky pokemon around. He's easily 1HKO'd by a strong SE attack. For many cases, he's even OHKO'd by neutral attacks.
    252 SpAtk Choice Specs Emboar (+SpAtk) Fire Blast vs 92 HP/0 SpDef Machoke (-SpDef) : 139.81% - 164.81%
    Guaranteed OHKO
     
  18. Slowkii

    Slowkii Banned

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    Dusted that all off.
     
  19. Slowkii

    Slowkii Banned

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    Not to bump, but what does the [WIP] tag mean?
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2013
  20. ZoroDark

    ZoroDark i know everything

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    Work in progress, on another note, you shuold edit your posts more often instead of dounle posting. Nice skeleton.
     
  21. Slowkii

    Slowkii Banned

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    Ah ok, and thanks.
     
  22. The Real Elmo

    The Real Elmo Caterpie hungers...

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    Second sweep!
    Good changes, but I have a comment for one of your additions

    So....Who even runs Max Speed Armaldo?
    Looking at the Usage Statistics, Speed Armaldo's only show up past the 5% usage point (and even then, max speed only shows up under 1% usage)
    http://stats.pokemon-online.eu/Wifi NU/348.html

    I feel like you're trying to hard to find a reason to run max speed on Machoke. I'll help you out, DON'T run max speed :p
    Like I've been saying, you really want to have bulk on Machoke so he can survive longer. Outspeeding Alomomola is one of the only threats you can easily outspeed while still retaining some amount of bulk, which is why I suggested 164 Spd.

    tl;dr Remove the Armaldo mention ^_^
     
  23. Slowkii

    Slowkii Banned

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    Yeh, I just wanted to point out Machoke CANNOT check armaldo without gimmicky EVs.

    I'll remove it now
     
  24. The Real Elmo

    The Real Elmo Caterpie hungers...

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    Gotcha.
    Well, I'm happy with this now.
    Approved (if I can still approve, where my badge at D: )
     
  25. Dzi

    Dzi So Nyuh Shi Dae

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    Approved.
    I've been inactive for a while. :I
     
  26. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    While ZoroDark already covered it, I'ma mention that Ethan and Eric are trying to promote the inclusion of these tags at all times. All unfinished analyses need one, be it [Skeleton], [WIP] or [Available]. Logic usually helps with deciding wihch.
     
  27. Dr. Fuji

    Dr. Fuji Active Member

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    Please remove the Guts sets and put them in OO. RestTalk Brick Break is pretty terrible and completely outclassed by Gurdurr which gets better attacking moves such as Hammer Arm and Drain Punch (if you must use RestTalk Machoke with Guts use Cross Chop>Brick Break, Sleep Talk can help alleviate its low PP) while the Bulk Up set is also completely outclassed when using Guts by Gurdurr, Machoke really relies on No Guard Dynamic Punch to keep it from being outclassed and should be used on all its main sets. I also would remove the Expert Belt slash from the first set as Machoke relies on Eviolite too much and while having good coverage Machoke often prefers to use Dynamic Punch against almost every target because of it's useful secondary effect limiting Expert Belts usefulness. I would slash Sub onto both the first two sets as Machoke is very good at forcing switches and Dynamic Punches confusion rate gives it plenty of opportunities to set up.

    ==No Guard ==
    Machoke (F) @ Eviolite
    Trait: No Guard
    EVs: 92 HP / 252 Atk / 164 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - DynamicPunch
    - Ice Punch/ThunderPunch
    - Payback
    - Bullet Punch/Substitute

    ==Bulk Up==
    Machoke (F) @ Eviolite
    Trait: No Guard
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Atk
    Adamant/Careful Nature (+Atk, -SAtk), (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - DynamicPunch
    - Payback
    - Ice Punch/ThunderPunch/Substitute
    - Bulk Up

    ==RestTalk==
    Machoke (F) @ Eviolite
    Trait: No Guard/Guts
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - DynamicPunch/Cross Chop
    - Payback
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk

    I still wouldn't recommend Guts due to it being outclassed by Gurdurr but I kept a mention here because it was the original purpose of the set.

    Also I know Choice Band has been considered outclassed by Sawk and Hariyama but I will say every time I have faced it has been a massive pain to switch into not much can take more then one Dynamic Punch if they hit themselves in confusion definitely a top OO if not a set you could just slash it where Expert Belt was even.


    Oh and add a mention that you can use a Brave Nature to hit more with Payback notably Frillish although I wouldn't really recommend it as the slow Psychics will now outspeed and KO.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2013
  28. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    ^I'd just add to that set, that if you're going Adamant on the Bulk Up set, you might as well use 16 Attack EVs to hit the first jump point. :3
     
  29. Slowkii

    Slowkii Banned

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    I've added to it.
     
  30. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I'ma bump this, because it's at risk of getting buried (mostly my fault, lol).

    Slowkii, if you wanna give this a full write up, and correct the couple of typos I've spotted, I'd be happy to upload it. :3
     
  31. Dzi

    Dzi So Nyuh Shi Dae

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    Bump.

    This analysis has been approved by two QCs and is good to go. Slowkii, please finish this.
     
  32. Slowkii

    Slowkii Banned

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    I will try to get it done soon, so much going on D:
     
  33. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    If you just get it written up, that's half the work. I (or someone else) can do the rest.
     
  34. The Real Elmo

    The Real Elmo Caterpie hungers...

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    This is taking way too long, lol.

    So,
    This analysis is up for grabs if anyone wants to finish it.
    Otherwise, I'll be finishing it up & uploading it before/over the weekend.
     
  35. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Uploaded

    It needs some tweaking, and IMO some expanding on the set comments, but it's FINALLY online.
     
  36. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    updated

    {{Header}}
    {{Tier|BW2 NU}}

    {{Overview|With 80/70/60 defenses paired with eviolite, Machoke's bulk isn't too bad, and its access to its trademark No Guard Dynamicpunch gives it a solid niche in the NU tier as a bulky disrupter.

    Its other useful ability, Guts, means that opponents might even be hesitant to use status moves on it, in case of backfire. This means Machoke has some scope for unpredictability too. It's far from NU's best Fighting-type, what with Eviolite rival Gurdurr giving it sore competition, especially when it packs a STAB priority in Mach Punch. However, Machoke has just enough differences about it to make it stand out.}}

    {{Set|No Guard|
    Machoke @ Eviolite
    Trait: No Guard
    EVs: 92 HP / 252 Atk / 164 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - DynamicPunch
    - Ice Punch / ThunderPunch
    - Payback
    - Bullet Punch/Substitute}}

    {{Comments|This set has great coverage and bulk thanks to Machoke's movepool and ability to use the Eviolite. If you feel you need priority, Bullet Punch can be used in slot 4, while Substitute gives Machoke a buffer against both status and opposing priority.

    This set is great for receiving Speed and/or Attack boosts from pokemon such as Ninjask. It utterly destroys using DynamicPunch, a powerful STAB that always inflicts confusion and, thanks to No Guard, will always hit. The Speed EVs puts Machoke one point ahead of standard Alomomola sets.

    The middle two slots contain Ice Punch, ThunderPunch and Payback. Any combination can be used, as all provide great coverage, however Payback is recommended on most sets, giving you the choice between Ice Punch and ThunderPunch. The latter helps against Dragons like Altaria, and also the likes of Torterra, whilst ThunderPunch helps break down bulky Waters, and means Machoke doesn't have to sacrifice precious DynamicPunch PP on them.}}

    {{Set|Bulk Up|
    Machoke @ Eviolite
    Trait: No Guard
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SDef
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - DynamicPunch
    - Payback
    - Ice Punch/ThunderPunch/Substitute
    - Bulk Up}}

    {{Comments|This set focuses on setup to let Machoke break through bulkier teams. It goes fully specially defensive to give it as much set up room as possible. Bulk Up allows Machoke to tank moves and KO pokemon easily. Guts is an option for an alternate ability to deter opposing pokemon from putting Machoke in status, but be wary that DynamicPunch isn't very compatible without No Guard.

    Payback has brilliant coverage alongside DynamicPunch, while Ice Punch and ThunderPunch have the same coverage options as they did on the previous set, and Substitute gives Machoke more room to setup if needed.}}

    {{Set|ResTalk|
    Machoke @ Eviolite
    Trait: Guts / No Guard
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Brick Break / DynamicPunch
    - Payback
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk}}

    {{Comments|ResTalk Machoke is quite viable. While it has competition from Gurdurr, Throh, and other bulky Fighting-types, it has some uniqueness in its ability to threaten DynamicPunch.

    It can rest off damage and use sleep talk, which activates Guts (if you're using it), and powers it up to very threatening levels. Brick Break is a reliable STAB, and Payback is for ghosts / Psychics (If they don't KO first.)

    To keep the set more unique to Machoke, instead of hiding in Throh's shadow, you can use DynamicPunch in tandem with No Guard, like on the previous sets. However, this will reduce Machoke's power slightly, due to Guts obviously not activating if Machoke isn't using it.}}

    {{Options|Machoke can use a Choice Band, but so can about every other Fighting-type in the tier. Again, Machoke's only real distinctive feature would be No Guard DynamicPunch.

    Work Up can be used on a mixed set although it shouldn't really be used, due to Machoke's awful base Special Attack. Variants of a SubPunch set can be used, abusing DynamicPunch's confusion. Encore can be also used to let Machoke use Bulk Up in peace, not to mention force switches. Its low Speed is a bit of a hindrance to this tactic, however.}}

    {{Checks|In general, anything that is faster than Machoke and can put it to sleep i.e. Butterfree, works as a decent answer. Note that sleep inducers obviously won't function too well against Machoke's ResTalk set.

    Haunter can trick the setup variants, however it can't switch in easily. Ditto can turn Machoke's own strategy against it with its own No Guard DynamicPunch.

    Most of NU's bulky waters can switch into Machoke to tank a hit, especially Alomomola thanks to Regenerator. NU's many bulky Psychic types can switch into Machoke with little to no fear. Musharna is a great example of this, being able to tank everything Machoke can throw at it while healing off damage with Moonlight. Lum Harvest Exeggutor is an even better example, being able to immediately heal DPunch's confusion and retaliate with a STAB Psychic.

    NU's Ghost Types can switch into a DPunch spamming Machoke with immunity, and either force it out or trick/burn/attack it. Standard Machoke is especially weak to status, and easy prey for the standard stallbreaker Misdreavus, who can Taunt it to prevent it from doing anything useful, cripple non Guts sets with a burn, and tank Paybacks all day long with its epic Eviolite boosted bulk.

    Lastly, even with the Eviolite its bulk isn't amazing, and boosted super effective hits will generally silence it quickly. Just watch out for confusion hax from its famed DynamicPunch.}}

    {{footer}}