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[GSC] Jorgen Gen 2 OU Tier List

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by Jørgen, Mar 25, 2013.

  1. Jørgen

    Jørgen Sniper

    Mar 5, 2011
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    So I figured I might as well write up my own subjective power-based tier list for GSC OU the same way CALLOUS did for ADV. Y'know, for funsies and to see if other people agree with where I gauge some Pokemon's worth in the tier. And for informative purposes I guess, I mean Smogon's OU tier list doesn't really tell you much on its own, so subdividing it like I do here might help people separate the actual standards from the things that are more OU by name.

    Tiers are listed in a top to bottom (best to worst) manner both in terms of the order of the tiers and the Pokemon themselves within each tier.

    Snorlax Tier:
    1 Snorlax

    Electric Tier:
    2 Zapdos
    3 Raikou

    S Tier:
    4 Skarmory
    5 Cloyster
    6 Tyranitar
    7 Exeggutor
    8 Gengar
    9 Vaporeon
    10 Steelix

    A Tier:
    11 Miltank
    12 Starmie
    13 Suicune
    14 Forretress
    15 Nidoking
    16 Machamp
    17 Marowak
    18 Umbreon
    19 Misdreavus

    B Tier:
    20 Dragonite
    21 Quagsire
    22 Rhydon
    23 Jolteon
    24 Heracross
    25 Blissey
    26 Charizard
    27 Porygon2
    28 Muk
    29 Espeon

    C Tier:
    30 Clefable
    31 Tentacruel
    32 Kangaskhan
    33 Ampharos
    34 Golem
    35 Slowbro
    36 Meganium
    37 Alakazam
    38 Houndoom
    39 Donphan

    D Tier:
    40 Smeargle
    41 Tauros
    42 Electabuzz
    43 Scizor
    44 Moltres
    45 Venusaur
    46 Ursaring
    47 Politoed
    48 Jynx
    49 Kingdra
    50 Raichu

    How I define each tier-

    Snorlax- It's Snorlax. It's seriously a step above everything else.

    Electric- It's the legendary electrics. Seriously, these are a step above everything else but below Lax.

    S- Best of the best outside of the Snorlax + Electrics trio that dominate the game. These Pokemon are the best in their respective roles and will always play a key role on their respective teams.

    A- Common, effective Pokemon that are extremely good at their respective roles, but ultimately are slightly limited in their ability to contribute to a team.

    B- Unconventional Pokemon that nonetheless are quite effective in their respective roles, although a lot of these Pokemon have a glaring weakness, rely on luck, or rely on being unexpected to reach their full potential.

    C- Pokemon that can work thanks to a unique trait, but are difficult to use effectively or are, in large part, outclassed by standards. However, while difficult to use, it is not terribly difficult to teambuild around them or to splash the defensive Pokemon onto a team.

    D- Very unconventional Pokemon that have unique characteristics, but only work on very specific teams or in very specific situations. Several are also basically outclassed by standards, but with even less than C-tier Pokemon have to set them apart from their outclassers.

    The main thing I want to point out is that Vap is really really good right now. Idk if it's a metagame thing or if it's permanent, although given Vap's been great for a while, I think it's safe to say that Vap's greatness is pretty solidified outside of potential brief stints where the metagame gets Roar Suicune-heavy as a reactionary measure. Suicune is tough to fit on a team while still having room for the offense and other defense you need to compete, though.
  2. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

    Dec 11, 2011
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    I am not very good at GSC OU, but is Blissey really not better than 25th, and is Nidoking really that good?
  3. Crystal_

    Crystal_ Active Member

    Mar 5, 2011
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    Mine would be relatively simlar, main differences would be Exeggutor at #5, Ttar and Steelix a bit lower, Suicune, Machamp, Blissey and Meganium a bit higher, and maybe Houndoom and Moltres as well.

    Heck, I'm going to do my own list for fun!
    Code (text):
    3. Snorlax Tier:
    4. 1 Snorlax
    6. Electric Tier:
    7. 2 Zapdos
    8. 3 Raikou
    10. S Tier:
    11. 4 Skarmory
    12. 5 Exeggutor
    14. A Tier
    15. 6 Cloyster
    16. 7 Gengar
    17. 8 Vaporeon
    18. 9 Miltank
    19. 10 Machamp
    20. 11 Suicune
    21. 12 Tyranitar
    22. 13 Starmie
    23. 14 Forretress
    25. B+ Tier
    26. 15 Marowak
    27. 16 Steelix
    28. 17 Nidoking
    30. B Tier:
    31. 18 Umbreon
    32. 19 Misdreavus
    33. 20 Blissey
    34. 21 Rhydon
    35. 22 Dragonite
    36. 23 Heracross
    37. 24 Porygon2
    38. 25 Jolteon
    39. 26 Quagsire
    40. 27 Muk
    41. 28 Meganium
    42. 29 Charizard
    43. 30 Espeon
    45. C Tier:
    46. 31 Clefable
    47. 32 Tentacruel
    48. 33 Houndoom
    49. 34 Moltres
    50. 35 Kangaskhan
    51. 36 Golem
    52. 37 Slowbro
    53. 38 Smeargle
    55. D Tier:
    56. ...
  4. Dre.

    Dre. Member

    Nov 23, 2011
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    I'm not amazing at GSC either, but blissey lets in very dangerous pokemon like snorlax for free. It's kind of unnecessary when you have miltalk to bell, who walls the most threatening pokemon in the game, and have snorlax+electric to sponge special hits whilst maintaining offensive pressure.

    I've been using nido on advice from Jorgen, and it's pretty good. Sleep plus super effective hits on a lot of the meta makes it instantly pressuring and hard to switch into. Toxic and electric immunities make it easier to switch in, and 85 speed is pretty fast for GSC.
  5. Jørgen

    Jørgen Sniper

    Mar 5, 2011
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    Yeah, Blissey just kinda sits there and can't really threaten much of anything out. Prime Snorlax bait. If it could phaze like Skarm can it'd work better as a Growtheon check or something, but alas, it cannot.

    That being said, I'm probably undervaluing it a bit, idk. It walls HP Electrics to hell and back, and it's definitely a sturdy Heal Beller. Plus you could always run a Reflect set to open up its other support options from RBY.

    As for nido, yeah, that's legit. Like, if you had to pick a premier mixed attacker of GSC, that'd be it. Ttar gives it competition, but not really thanks to Nido's access to LK and Thunder. And no, Exploders don't count as mixed attackers imo, so Gengar and Egg don't really compete with Nido in this department.
  6. puregenius

    puregenius :<

    Nov 19, 2011
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    Thanks this will help when I'm team building
    I'm surprised tentacruel is so low though
    I've heard everybody and their dog talking about druidcruel
  7. Jørgen

    Jørgen Sniper

    Mar 5, 2011
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    Druidcruel is more a historical relic than something truly good in GSC.

    I mean don't get me wrong, it has its place and sets up all over ST Vap and Cloy (which makes it particularly good in the current metagame with those two mons all over the place), but it can struggle for relevance in general.
  8. Sakuya Izayoi

    Sakuya Izayoi love to hate

    Jun 1, 2012
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    Snorlax is the metagame~~
    Where is pikachu Q__Q

    Choking that charizard is the best fire on the list, when houndoom should be #1. With a fantastic dual stab that can wreck the tier and even that bulky special wall blissey with beat up, it is really hard to define why isnt houndoom on the A tier list. I'm sure many charizard fans will disagree with the complete shit im writing anyway :x Bellydrumzard is kinda a gimick as it does not have the bulk to tank a hit after setting up with belly drum, its main niche is basically wrecking skarmbliss core, which houndoom can do as well to an extent with fire blast for skarm and beat up (provided full team with max beat up power.) Dark stab is very useful to have when you can pursuit all over those ghosts, especially misdreavus and gengar running aound everywhere. Houndoom can definitely reach the "A" level with its own merits, sunnybeam FTW

    I just found out after playing GSC for a while that Vaporeon is a really decent check to curselax lacking lovely kiss, as it gets acid armor and can set up on snorlax reliably without getting haxed. Growth can also be used to boost its special attack and smash snorlax back with a powerful boosted surf. It has the bulk that can tank a thunderbolt from both zapdos and raikou, a testiment to show how bulky vaporeon is.

    Another often overlooked pokemon is meganium, who is really spectacular at supporting the team. With dual screens and leech seed, it can really help a sweeper(like vaporeon) set up easily and go from there to sweep the opponent's team. Going to say charizard is one of the best pokes that benefit from dual screens and go belly drum easily and outspeed a majority of the tier with its base 100 speed. Meganium also have decent synergy with each other, making each other the best partners in battle.

    Gotta give special menction to jolteon, being able to baton pass agility to marowak at letting marowak have a chance at sweeping a team with thick club boosting its attack to supreme levels.
  9. Jørgen

    Jørgen Sniper

    Mar 5, 2011
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    Charizard can't really tank hits, that's true, but neither can Houndoom. At least Charizard can outspeed and OHKO or 2HKO basically everything after the boost, whereas Houndoom struggles to even 3HKO some foes. As for Houndoom's set, Beat Up is really unreliable, not to mention that Blissey isn't such a huge problem given how uncommon it is relative to other threats to Houndoom. I'd rather have Pursuit in that last slot to nail Egg switch-outs, Counter to punish Snorlax for attacking you, or Hidden Power Fighting to hit Tyranitar as it switches in.

    Either way, neither Fire is ever reaching "A" tier. The typing is just too much of a liability on defense, and even on offense they tend to perform inconsistently.

    As for Meganium, the biggest thing holding it back is 8 Synthesis PP. If it gets Recover instead, it's A-tier OU. Seriously, as long as Synthesis PP holds out, it walls basically everything without a STAB SE move, and Fire, Ice, Poison, Bug, and Flying aren't exactly common STABs to have.
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2013
  10. borat

    borat Member

    Feb 21, 2011
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    Smeargle is wayyy too low imo (by about 2 tiers). Smeargle defines the BP meta, of which it's extremely gay, but nonetheless incredibly effective at < 15 turn games. Isn't that what the B-tier is all about? What has Alakazam done lately?

    Egg and skarm "might" be debatable, but I don't think there's any real threat that it's better than ttar/cloyster... unless i'm totally missing something. Tyranitar is wildly mediocre in every regard. Cloyster is also a bit of a mixed bag; spikes is killer, but the inconsistency that you hate with egg is there with cloy as well.

    Suicune also feels a touch low (~5 spots). Suicune literally stops everything from 3-49 (except jolteon obviously), and I still believe Toxic is one of the best statuses to have on an opposing snorlax.

    I bag on blissey all day, but I still think it does a hell of a lot more than.. umbreon (unless you go gay with it an confuse ray/sand attack trap pass).
  11. Jørgen

    Jørgen Sniper

    Mar 5, 2011
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    AgiPassing is not so good in my opinion, and that's what Smeargle needs to be doing to be winning those 15-turn games. Belly Drum isn't really something you can count on, and there's better things to use Growth. Exploders, sleepers, Curselax, Skarms/Steelixes... can't sleep them all. I guess it could work if the opposing team is worn down and can't stop the pass, but at the same time, if you could keep it slow and wait for the opposing team to be worn down you probably don't have all the tools to appropriately capitalize off of AgiPass. If you asked me, a dedicated BP team should be passing Growths, not Agility.

    Cloy's Spikes are what gives it number 5 status. It can be inconsistent on its own, yes, but tack some Spinblock or something threatening that likes Starmie gone onto your team and that inconsistency washes away. Ttar, on the other hand, is mediocre as a Phazer and Snorlax counter. Its best use is as a mixed sweeper/Pursuiter deal, and really, pretty much every team has at least one thing you can try to get Ttar to pursuit to death, even if it's an electric. And while, yes, it's walled forever by bulky waters, many teams don't run one, leaving Ttar relatively free to smash things.

    Egg struggles specifically because of Ttar; without that thing around, it could afford to run HP Fire > Giga Drain to beat the Skarms that are flying around regardless because of Snorlax. As it stands, it's all too often either an easily-pursuited sitting duck or a Special attacker that can't break Skarm. Weak. That being said I'd be lying if I said I didn't respect it or find it a natural fit on a lot of teams, hence why it's as high as it is.

    Cune just sits there, and is far from a surefire stop to everything 3-49. Inconvenient for them to deal with, yes, but hardly a hardwall with its lack of resistances. I find it so hard to use on a team because it does nothing for me offensively while walling much lower-priority threats than Skarm does. Sometimes I'll teambuild and think I have a good team with Cune, only to realize that something like Starmie works better since I already have other solid mixed walls (e.g. Miltank) and I don't yet have anything for the Spikes game. And sure, hitting Lax with Toxic is good, but with Cune you're more likely to just be hitting ST Zapdos with it. Weak.

    Also Umbreon's as high as it is specifically because of that ML Pass set. It's definitely lower without it, although I'd still find it easier to use than Bliss because it's not total Lax bait (at least not Curselax bait) and can, in theory, chip away at Egg and Gengar with Pursuit for stuff like Quagsire and Monolax (although in practice it's better at eating their Sleep or forcing them to Explode in its face than it is at actually killing them with Pursuit).
  12. borat

    borat Member

    Feb 21, 2011
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    Agi passing is great. How many agi passers pack a sleep move, let alone a 100% sleep one? Exploders get stopped by substitute. Agi, spore, sub, pass. Goes to work at turn 1.

    I don't remember it exactly move for move, but:

    [email protected]/whatever
    Baton Pass

    Belly Drum
    Lovely Kiss
    Return/DE (depends if you want the OHKO on cloy/cune)

    HP Bug/Fly

    Baton Pass
    HP Water

    Baton Pass
    Swords Dance
    Return/DE/HP Bug/whatever

    FILLER slot

    Poliwrath (BD, LK, Return, something)
    Charizard (standard)
    Quagsire (belly drum, eq, SB, HP Rock)
    Clefable (Drum, sing)
    Miltank (bell)

    Try it.
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2013
  13. Dr. Fuji

    Dr. Fuji Active Member

    Mar 8, 2011
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    PO Trainer Name:
    Dr. Fuji
    Crystal_ get out of my head! I read this list and thought to myself I feel like Tyranitar/Steelix are a little too high and Machamp is a little too low...