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[Final] Guide to the Arceus Formes

Discussion in 'Gen 5 Ubers Analyses' started by Dr. Doom, Apr 6, 2013.

  1. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    On Wiki

    I made a thread like this a while ago, with a poll asking you guys if you thought a Wiki article of it would be a good idea. Most of you said yes, so here it is. Feedback is greatly appreciated.
     
  2. Slowkii

    Slowkii Banned

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    You should add stall, with 120 Defenses and 120 HP, And access to toxic, reliable recovery and great speed, Arceus steel can outstall many using substitute and taunt etc.
     
  3. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Wouldn't that come under Support though? And in the "what Arceus is right for you" section, there is a bit titled "I Need A Wall."
     
  4. Slowkii

    Slowkii Banned

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    Ah great.
     
  5. two sides of one coin

    two sides of one coin sick of all her shit

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    Mention Arceus-Normal can run a max defensive set with WoW/Recover/ESpeed/Roar to make an excellent Extremekiller check, among others.
     
  6. Slowkii

    Slowkii Banned

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    1000th post! ^^^

    Grats man :o

    On topic, Arceus Ghost is also a Nice Check for E-killer Arceus. I tshould always carry brick break.
     
  7. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    I did.
    .

    And on that set it normally runs Return rather than ESpeed since it's more powerful. Seriously, people please read the article before saying "you should've added this or that".
     
  8. two sides of one coin

    two sides of one coin sick of all her shit

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    I did read your article, and you didn't have it in, as far as I could see. And I do prefer ExtremeSpeed over Return, because priority is always nice.

    Sets: Swords Dance, Support
    Swords Dance Normal Arceus is Arceus's most popular set, and is commonly regarded as its best one. STAB Extremespeed makes it a formidable offensive threat, backed up by Brick Break and Shadow Claw it hits everything for neutral damage. However, it is straddled with a chronic case of 4 moveslot syndrome: it would love to squeeze Recover on there, but the coverage granted by Brick Break and Shadow Claw are just too good to give up. Its Normal typing also lacks resistances, meaning it can be quickly worn down if using a Life Orb. Normal Arceus can also take advantage of its ability to hold Leftovers to run a great defensive set – Roar and Perish Song mean it won't be set up fodder.
     
  9. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    So do you think I should change the wording on the Normal Arceus section?
     
  10. two sides of one coin

    two sides of one coin sick of all her shit

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    No, my point was I couldn't see a mention of Return/Will-O-Wisp/etc,
     
  11. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    OK, well I've changed the wording slightly now to make it clearer.

    Better?
     
  12. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    There's a few typos here and there, but that's to be expected. On the whole, it looks pretty solid to me! :3
     
  13. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Could you name any specific instances? Not getting defensive, but I'll be much quicker correcting if I know where the mistakes are.

    I can't think of any more scenarios for the "What Arceus is right for you?" section. If anyone thinks of any more, either let me know or you can add it in yourself. Just put a picture of that particular forme before your recommendation. Click on the picture of it in the threatlist bit (i.e. from the section "the formes"), open it up in a new tab/window, and copy and paste the URL.
     
  14. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Sure thing, I can do that. I'll see if I can give it a proofread later today and fix a few. :3

    EDIT: Some examples of typos I found:

    'dealdy'
    'phenominal'
    'complimented' (you wanted 'complemented' there)

    Just small stuff like that. I'll try and get them all.

    EDIT2: I think I've corrected all the typos. If someone else wants to proofread, they may spot something I missed. I also changed a couple of things here and there, for example, changing 'E: Not worth using' to 'E: You need a good reason to use this one'.

    As Arceus is the #basedGod of pokemon, I reckon every forme is at least worth using, in one way or another. xd
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2013
  15. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    TQVM Spoovo!

    I've tried Arcues-Bug and Arceus-Ice, and while they weren't terrible, there still wasn't much reason to use them over their competition. Also, what's the Sandbox for?
     
  16. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    On the Wiki?

    I honestly have no idea, lol. I'll ask Fuzzy/Eric/someone, see if they know. xD

    Oh, and it's no worries for the helping thing. I'm always happy to help. :3

    Plus, did you get a look at the SD Arceus Grass lure I thought up? :D

    EDIT: Ahh, I see. I just googled 'Wiki Sandbox', and its definition was similar to what I was thinking; experiments and playtime, pretty much. Testing coding, etc. Like the drawing board, if you will.
     
  17. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Ah, thanks. SD Grass Arceus isn't very good, since it has no physical STAB (for some reason it doesnt' learn Seed Bomb). Bug Arceus run an SD set better, since it gets X-Scissor.
     
  18. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Ohh, I found out that it does get Bullet Seed. While that's not brilliant, it's still not too bad, and at +2, it can OHKO defensive Groudon if Bullet Seed hits 4 times. :3
     
  19. puregenius

    puregenius :<

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    Didn't comment before, but if you're going to put this on the wiki you have to fix this shit
    It is lacking or sometimes or just plain wrong:

    Bugceus
    The whole thing is misleading, you make it sound like it is viable. You make no mention of the fact Mewtwo can decimate it with Fire Blast and that Darkrai can sleep it and set up on it, so this statement is just wrong.
    Make some mention about Bugceus being the worst Arceus forme and the Lati twins, BW2 made Bugceus a tad better. Reasons beings:

    1) Multitude of weaknesses, including rocks, which undermines his excellent bulk
    2) Can't even switch in on what he's supposed to kill and most of the time is beaten to the KO

    Darkeus
    You make no mention of why this is the case, i.e. because many common walls are weak to Dark type - Latias, Lugia, Giratina

    Dragonceus
    You need to mention EK Arceus as well (STAB + freedom of item)
    Pros
    - good resists unlike normal Ceus, most notably Water
    - destroys Gira

    Cons
    - weak to Dragon
    - no item choice

    Flyingceus
    Not really relevant as Ferro is perfect set up bait for these Pokemon
    You also make it sound like it is better than it is

    Ghostceus
    I'm assuming you think it is the most versatile because it can run support, physical and special, but saying he is the most versatile is incorrect as Groundceus, Rockeus, Steelceus and Waterceus do the same. Using words like 'most' is always tricky because more often than not it comes down to opinion.
    Put emphasis on the special set and how it is hard to wall in general as most walls are steel/psychic/ghost and how it is one of the most dangerous Pokemon in Ubers
    Mention Shadow Claw for the SD as it is almost completely superior. If the opponent has a ghost and a normal, you can't touch them.

    Groundceus
    Wrong, he envies Groudon's Atk and Def stats. Again, using statements like 'nothing' is tricky.
    Make a mention how it is one of the few bulky Ceus that can check Ray

    Iceus

    Bug is unquestionably the worst. This is the general consensus among almost all good Uber players
    Ice Beam is common and especially against Scarf Ogre and Kyurem W
    Bugceus is hardly relevant take it out
    You don't emphasise just how amazing Ice STAB is in a meta filled will Dragons and walls weak to Ice.
    Make mention of how he is the most offensively inclined.
    Misleading, you make it sound like Electriceus outclasses it, which it doesn't. Ice type STAB is crucial in breaking past walls

    Arceus
    Wrong, Recover variants are perfectly viable, mention it loses quite a bit of coverage with this variant, but makes up for it being able to set up much more easily
    You fail to mention Overheat/ Fire Blast (for Skarm), Eq (for the ohko on dia at +2), Silk Scarf and Lum Berry
    You need to mention he is one of the best Arceus formes (the other being Ghostceus)

    Poisonceus
    Sludge Bomb is vastly superior because of the high 30% poison rate (so the same as scald and thunder) which usually means victory in a cm war if they arceus are hitting each other neutrally

    Psychiceus
    Don't ramble on so long about the CM set. It is utterly outclassed by Mewtwo, bar his bulk, which is NOT enough to warrant his use. His support set should be the primary set listed and that should be the main contents of the paragraph.
    I'd mention Terrakion in there somewhere as well.
    In sun*. In rain Jirachi can also counter Mewtwo.

    Steelceus
    No mention of ExtremeSpeed or Stone Edge (otherwise it can't touch ho-oh)
    You need to emphasise the Dragon resist

    Waterceus
    Specs Ogre 2hkos with Water Spout/Hydro Pump so that's just blatantly wrong
    You say he works well in the sun, but you don't mention this is because he is an excellent Kyogre counter (and to a lesser extent, rain offense)

    You really should split this into two sections, defensively and offensively.

    Defensively

    Ttar - Ghostceus - Immune to Fighting, while Ttar takes Dark hits
    Kyogre - Grasseus - Resists Electric and Grass for Ogre, while Kyogre takes Ice hits
    Groudon - Waterceus - Waterceus stops Kyogre and covers Groudons Ice and Water Weaknesses, Groudon is immune to Electric

    Offensively

    Ttar - Grasseus - Ttar Pursuit traps annoying stuff like Latias and Lugia, while Grasseus takes out opposing weather starters.
    Kyogre - Waterceus - Obvious reasons.
    Groudon - Ghostceus - RP Groudon is very dangerous and has few things that can stop it: Lugia and Giratina. Ghostceus can set up on/kill both.

    Obviously, this section can be expanded a lot

    Mention it locks you in.
    Once again Shadow Claw is largely superior
    Mention STAB EQ

    Steelceus does deserve its own section in the physical sweeper section. Priority resistance and good defensive typing that lets him support his team at the same time makes it very viable.

    Once again, hitting Ferro neutrally is not significant as they are meant to set up on Ferrothorn.
    He's not a great stall breaker either because he can't hurt gira or lugia so he is easily phazed so he can't accumulate boosts unlike Darkeus. In this way, Ghostceus is a pretty good stall breaker as well.

    I don't think he deserves a mention

    If it is OHKOed AND outsped it does not deserve a mention at all as a check and it's not even difficult conditions. +1 can be sun or a cm boost

    Poisonceus does not deserve a mention, he is mostly a utility mon
    Grass, Ground and Water deserve mentions for obvious reasons

    Dark doesnt spin block

    Your viability thread is also very inaccurate

    A - Ghostceus, Normalceus
    B - Grasseus, Steelceus, Groundceus, Darkeus
    C - Dragonceus, Fireceus, Iceus, Rockeus, Poisonceus, Electriceus, Waterceus
    D - Flyingceus, Psychiceus
    E - Bugceus

    Edit

    The main reason this isn't a good article is that this is extremely biased.
    You over-emphasise the usefulness of Electriceus, Bugeus and Rockeus.
    This makes it seem like Electriceus is on par or even better than Ghostceus/Normalceus, which is very misleading.
    This guide is for new players, but their being completely misled. They'll run checks for Bugeus and then get raped by Ghostceus.
    I can tell you're also exaggerating the usefulness of Fireceus after you read my RMT. Don't get me wrong it requires quite a bit of support and would be near the bottom of C Rank.
    Stuff like this has no business being on here.
    State the facts only and that should make your article a lot less biased and hence a whole lot better. The comparative stuff can come after you fix this.

    Edit 2

    Doesn't this stuff have to be QC approved before it goes to wiki?
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2013
  20. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    While I appreciate that you're tying to help, I disagree with you about a few things.

    If I made Bugceus sound viable, why did I put it in E for viability? Yeah, Darkrai and Mewtwo are really going to pick a fight with Bug Arceus aren't they. Mewtwo with Fire Blast can revenge kill it outside rain, but Darkrai? Come on, if Dark Void misses it's toast. Dark Void has the same accuracy as Stone Edge, and we all know how unreliable that move is.

    Ice Arceus is pretty much useless. No way is it a C. It's a D at best. Apart from Ice Beam, there's nothing it can switch in on. Its great bulk is upset by a total lack of resistances and common weaknesses. It has all the issues Bug has, and a few more on top. At least Bug has some useful resistances like Ground. And Ice Beam isn't as common as you make it out to be. Out of the top 20 (according to Ranked Stats) there are 3 Pokemon that regularly use Ice Beam: Kyogre, Lugia and Genesect.

    Smogon

    When did I ever say anything about Dark Arceus spinblocking?

    Um...no I didn't. At what point in the article did I say "You must pack a check to Bug Arceus, or your team will fail."? And how did I make Electric Arceus out to be one of the best formes? I put that in B, while Normal and Ghost are in A. I recommended it for special sweepers, and mentioned its use in both rain and sun, which is true. It is worth considering for an offensive team - I used it on a team that reached 1500. And their = possessive (ie their shoes); they're = they are.

    Smogon

    I'll add Earthquake in, but Overheat is outclassed by Earthquake/Brick Break. Rain is the most common weather in the tier, and in Rain Skarmory doesn't come close to being OHKOd. If you run an Adamant nature, it's too weak. Running Naughty or Lonely compromises Arceus's great bulk. Running Silk Scarf can be useful for the extra power with no recoil, and while Lum Berry can be useful for avoiding burns, for the most part Life Orb/Silk Scarf are better. Without a boosting item, it has much more trouble with physical walls. Reliable recovery's great, but is being completely walled by Giratina-O and Skarmory a price worth paying for it?

    0SpAtk Life Orb Multitype Arceus (-SAtk) Overheat in Rain vs 252HP/0SpDef Sturdy Skarmory (Neutral): 55% - 65% (184 - 218 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    It's crippled by Toxic, and since Pokemon are immune to its STAB it has to run 2 attacks. Therefore, Dark and Rock outclass it for breaking stall since they can both afford to give up a slot for Refresh. Ghost Arceus is best used as a sweeper or supporter.

    I've heard that said before, but how exactly does Water Arceus counter Kyogre? I'm not saying you're wrong, but wouldn't CM Kyogre just set up all over it and smash it with Thunder?

    Good idea. I'll do that.

    Sounds great, I'll do that.

    I don't think so. I've submitted stuff on the Wiki before without posting it in the forums first, and I've never had a warning or infraction for it.

    I agree on A and D. But Electric and Rock should be in B since both can be extremely effective, although they need a bit of support to be at their best (why they're not in A). I will move Dragon down to C though. I agree with putting Bug in E, but I'm not moving Ice up. I've tried all the formes and almost all the sets, and I found Ice the least effective.

    Thanks for the feedback. I'm sorry you felt it was biased - I tried to keep it neutral, but I'll reword it.
     
  21. puregenius

    puregenius :<

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    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3473976

    check the official viability thread of smogon (peer reviewed which is a pretty good indicator of being mostly accurate)
    iceus is c and for good reason

    misinterpreted

    you dont have to explicitly say it lol, it was implied
    as for u implying electriceus is more dangerous:
    which sounds more dangerous? if i was a new player i would definitely assume electriceus is more dangerous
    i understand because i am similar, apparently i am very passive aggressive when i reply, which i dont get?
    means very little, i got 1600 with iceus and 1500 with honch
    rank is a bad argument
    lol cool ur tits i do remember someone saying lucario had more resistances compared to coballion

    i dunno where abouts u got it from smogon, but its outdated

    not outclassed as neither can deal with skarm, obviously u use it in a sun team and nothing ohkos skarm because of sturdy lol (bar obviously mold breaker-esque abilties)

    i can see where ur coming from
    for the most part when talking about kyogre, its best to assume scarf or specs because those are the most common sets
    sure cm is dangerous, its just not used so it is rather irrelevant
    first u have to know support waterceus is used almost exclusively on sun (sometimes sand)
    when a kyogre switches into groudon, he predicted switch in because they risk being outpredicted and having to tank an eq from groudon, so theyre gonna go for ice beam or water move of choice
    waterceus resists both, can heal and phase him out
    grasseus on the other hand, who u probably think does counter kyogre, shares a common ice weakness, so the prediction game doesnt have to be played at all and they can just spam ice beam
    many support waterceus dont even run water stabs, just grass knot for kyogre/groudon and ice beam for rayquaza
    obviously ur gonna have a harder time against an unexpected set, but thats to be expected
    heck even gastro cant beat sub cm

    to be honest its not all that strange u disagree with me, because the middle region is highly subjective
    it wouldnt be a bad idea to have only A, B and C rank with:
    A - Ghostceus, Normalceus
    C - Bugceus, Psychiceus (possibly flyingceus)
    B - everything else

    btw i put rockeus in c because he is a mon that only works in sand (or at least functions there the best)
     
  22. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    I can see why it has appeal - Ice STAB is very effective in Ubers with all the Dragon types around. But the SR weakness, lack of resistances and common weaknesses all hold it back IMO. And I got the Smogon lines from:

    Icicle Plate Smogon
    Zap Plate Smogon

    I can see how Overheat could be useful on EK Arceus for a surprise kill on Skarmory and Forretress outside Rain, but Brick Break 2HKOs specially defensive Forretress at +2 anyway after SR, if Arceus is running Adamant Nature. Which Extremekiller always should: Jolly can't 2HKO 252/0 Groudon at +2 without a Life Orb. I just think Brick Break/Earthquake are more consistent, but I'll mention Overheat all the same.

    I get what you're saying, I do tend to sensationalise a bit - I was just trying to liven it up is all. It's quite a long article, so I wanted it to be an interesting read. You don't come across as passive aggressive (not to me anyway). You were being polite and civil while offering up good advice, which is exactly what I wanted.

    Thanks for clearing up how Water Arceus counters Kyogre. It's a shame more people don't use CM Kyogre, it's a great set. Once Ferrothorn's down it's almost unstoppable.

    While Rock is at its best in sand due to the SDef boost, it can also work well in Sun, checking opposing Ho-Oh and Reshiram. It can also lure in Kyogre and 2HKO non scarf sets on the switch with a boosted Grass Knot.

    Could be interesting - it would streamline the article. How would it break down? Like this?:

    A: An excellent Pokemon that needs very little support to function
    B: A very good Pokemon, although it needs more support to be at its best, the rewards are high enough to justify its use
    C: Not a bad Pokemon, but for the most part you could do better
     
  23. two sides of one coin

    two sides of one coin sick of all her shit

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    As someone who has used Fire Blast Arceus, I can unreservedly say it is excellent and it definitely deserves a mention. And Overheat cqlc has 0 SAtk, a negative nature and is in rain? Pffffft.
     
  24. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    EK Arceus runs an Adamant nature (sometimes Jolly). And you're not going to invest in SAtk when you're a phyical sweeper. Maybe set aside 4 EVs? That wouldn't make a difference. And running Naughty or Lonely is a no no since you compromise Arceus's bulk. And without 252 Atk EV you won't be sweeping much, since Extremespeed's quite weak.
     
  25. two sides of one coin

    two sides of one coin sick of all her shit

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    You can afford to run 4 SAtk EV's and you can afford to go Naughty/Brave/Lonely if you are specifically running a special move to smash things which wall the standard set, such as Skarmory, Ferrothorn and Forretress. ExtremeSpeed's not weak either, it's 80 base power and it has STAB as well, you can afford to even run 252 Atk EV's, and then put some into SAtk. You wouldn't run -SAtk, anyway. And rain is situational, it's preferably used in sun.
     
  26. -Manaphy--

    -Manaphy-- Overconsumption

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    If you were to run Overheat Arceus it'd be a nessecity for it to be in Sun, generally you really should not be running SAtk EV's at all as Overheat will get the job done on Ferro/Forry/Skarm anyway.

    The downside to Overheat is that if you're running a Sun team there's a very good chance you'd be running a Ho-Oh/Blaziken anyway so it can be redundant.
     
  27. puregenius

    puregenius :<

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    When I said three tiers I meant
    A - the best (a, possibly b)
    B - usable (b-c)
    C - the worst (d-e)
     
  28. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Update:

    The Formes

    Changed Shadow Force to Shadow Claw for Ghost
    Reworded Fighting
    Changed Psychic, so the focus was on its Support set.
    Mentioned on Water's Support set about its ability to check Kyogre (check not counter, since a Specs Thunder will 2HKO).

    What Arceus is right for you?

    Added defensive and offensive subsections for the bit about getting good synergy with Groudon/Kyogre/Tyranitar.
    Defensive
    Water (Groudon)
    Grass (Kyogre)
    Ghost (Tyranitar)
    Offensive
    Fire (Groudon)
    Ghost (Groudon)
    Water (Kyogre)
    Fighting (Kyogre)
    Grass (Tyranitar)

    I just need a physical sweeper

    Included Steel Arceus, since despite poor STAB its resistance to most priority moves (and a lot of other stuff) make it hard to revenge kill. Also reworded the intro, since Swords Dance Arceus's goal is pretty much always sweeping.
    Change Ghost's section for Shadow Claw, although I did still mention Shadow Force
    I just need a special sweeper

    Reworded Electric Arceus's bit
    Included Psychic Arceus, since it can work well. I did mention that Mewtwo is much more powerful and faster, but Psychic Arceus is harder to revenge kill.
    Weapon against Stall teams

    Reworded intro
    Removed Flying Arceus

    Status Spreader

    Reworded intro
    Included Water, since it uses Thunder Wave and Will-O-Wisp very well. Ground and Fire types generally don't switch in for obvious reasons.

    I need a Wall

    Removed Poison

    Ranking section

    Moved Dragon down to C