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[BW2] May and June Wifi NU Tier / Potential Suspect Discussion

Discussion in 'Gen 5 NU' started by Big Bad Booty Daddy, Apr 30, 2013.

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  1. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Here's the most common set of all the LU dropouts

    Manectric (No. 4 in usage)
    # 1 - 15.61 % (311 battles)
    Manectric @ Choice Scarf Lv. 100 -- Static (5.1 %) / Lightningrod (94.9 %)
    Nature: Timid - EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd (79.7 %)[Grass]
    Nature: Modest - EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd (11.6 %)[Grass]
    Nature: Modest - EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd (3.9 %)[Ground]
    Nature: Modest - EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd (2.6 %)[Ice]
    Nature: Hardy - EVs: 4 HP / 172 SAtk / 80 SDef / 252 Spd (1.0 %)[Grass]
    Nature: Timid - EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd (0.3 %)[Grass]
    Nature: Modest - EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd (0.3 %)[Ice]
    Nature: Hardy - EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd (0.3 %)[Grass]
    Nature: Timid - EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd (0.3 %)[Water]
    Flamethrower
    Thunderbolt
    Hidden Power
    Volt Switch

    Not surprised to be honest. Scarf is by far and away its best set, although I've seen Specs and Expert Belt used well too.
    [/HIDE]

    Gardevoir (No. 5 in usage)
    # 1 - 10.92 % (218 battles)
    Gardevoir @ Choice Specs Lv. 100 -- Trace
    Nature: Modest - EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd (99.1 %)
    Nature: Modest - EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd (0.9 %)
    Thunderbolt
    Psychic
    Shadow Ball
    Focus Blast

    The set I'm using :). A great set, capitalising on Gardevoir's power and movepool. It's already overtaken Musharna - I'm hoping it overtakes Mesprit as well. Apart from setting up Rocks, Gardevoir can do everything Mesprit can and do it better. Screens + Memento works well too.
    [/HIDE]

    Houndoom (No. 7 in usage)
    # 1 - 20.33 % (373 battles)
    Houndoom @ Life Orb Lv. 100 -- Early Bird (0.3 %) / Flash Fire (99.7 %)
    Nature: Hasty - EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd (75.3 %)
    Nature: Hasty - EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd (12.1 %)
    Nature: Hasty - EVs: 240 Atk / 80 SAtk / 188 Spd (4.0 %)
    Nature: Hasty - EVs: 188 Atk / 68 SAtk / 252 Spd (4.0 %)
    Nature: Hasty - EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd (2.7 %)
    Nature: Naive - EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd (1.3 %)
    Nature: Hasty - EVs: 240 Atk / 80 SAtk / 188 Spd (0.3 %)
    Nature: Naive - EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd (0.3 %)
    Fire Blast
    Pursuit
    Crunch
    Sucker Punch

    Some weird EV spreads on there. Trapper is a great set, since it counters Misdreavus completely. Nasty Plot's a great set too, but as I found out with my New Kids on the Block team, it rarely gets the chance to set up due to Houndoom's frailty.
    [/HIDE]

    Primeape (No. 10 in usage)
    Primeape @ Choice Scarf Lv. 100 -- Vital Spirit (95.8 %) / (No Ability) (0.5 %) / (No Ability) (3.7 %)
    Nature: Jolly - EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd (41.7 %)
    Nature: Jolly - EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd (23.7 %)
    Nature: Jolly - EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd (13.1 %)
    Nature: Jolly - EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd (10.4 %)
    Nature: Adamant - EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd (4.0 %)
    Nature: Adamant - EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd (3.7 %)
    Nature: Adamant - EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd (3.5 %)
    U-turn
    Close Combat
    Punishment
    Stone Edge

    Although Sawk gives it stiff competition with its superior power, Primeape has a much better speed tier. I wasn't all that impressed with Primeape to be honest - I just found it to be a faster weaker Sawk.
    [/HIDE]

    Swellow (No. 13 in usage)
    # 1 - 54.53 % (836 battles)
    Swellow @ Toxic Orb Lv. 100 -- Guts
    Nature: Jolly - EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd (29.9 %)
    Nature: Jolly - EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd (29.1 %)
    Nature: Jolly - EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd (24.6 %)
    Nature: Jolly - EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd (9.2 %)
    Nature: Adamant - EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd (3.7 %)
    Nature: Adamant - EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd (1.8 %)
    Nature: Adamant - EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd (1.6 %)
    Nature: Naive - EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd (0.1 %)
    Quick Attack
    Facade
    U-turn
    Brave Bird

    Pretty much the only set Swellow can run. Once the Steel and Rock types are down, it's deadly. It needs a Spinner to be at its best though, and that's the one thing NU lacks. You have a choice of Wartortle which is useless if Taunted, and Torkoal and Armaldo who are weak to the very hazards they're spinning away. There is Natu I suppose.
    [/HIDE]

    Drapion (No. 20 in usage)
    # 1 - 10.44 % (109 battles)
    Drapion @ Leftovers Lv. 100 -- Battle Armor (3.7 %) / (No Ability) (96.3 %)
    Nature: Jolly - EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd (98.2 %)
    Nature: Jolly - EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spd (1.8 %)
    Swords Dance
    Earthquake
    Substitute
    Crunch

    Sub Swords Dance...interesting. I would've thought T Spikes would've been more popular. Haven't got around to testing Drapion yet, although I've never had trouble with opposing ones.
    [/HIDE]

    Gorebyss (No. 32 in usage)
    # 1 - 36.28 % (312 battles)
    Gorebyss @ White Herb Lv. 100 -- Swift Swim (97.4 %) / (No Ability) (2.6 %)
    Nature: Timid - EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd (21.5 %)[Grass]
    Nature: Modest - EVs: 48 HP / 252 SAtk / 208 Spd (16.3 %)[Grass]
    Nature: Modest - EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd (11.5 %)[Grass]
    Nature: Modest - EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd (11.5 %)[Grass]
    Nature: Timid - EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd (10.9 %)[Grass]
    Nature: Timid - EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd (8.3 %)[Grass]
    Nature: Timid - EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd (5.8 %)[Grass]
    Nature: Timid - EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd (5.8 %)[Grass]
    Nature: Modest - EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd (3.5 %)[Grass]
    Nature: Timid - EVs: 0 (1.9 %)[Grass]
    Nature: Timid - EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd (1.0 %)[Grass]
    Nature: Timid - EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd (0.6 %)[Grass]
    Nature: Timid - EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd (0.6 %)[Electric]
    Nature: Modest - EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd (0.3 %)[Grass]
    Nature: Timid - EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd (0.3 %)[Grass]
    Surf
    Ice Beam
    Hidden Power
    Shell Smash

    Again, pretty much the only set it can run. Once the scarfed base 95+ speed Pokemon are down, it wrecks. I wasn't too impressed myself, but I've seen other people use it to great effect.
    [/HIDE]

    Huntail (No. 163 in usage)
    # 1 - 65.09 % (69 battles)
    Huntail @ White Herb Lv. 100 -- Swift Swim (78.3 %) / (No Ability) (21.7 %)
    Nature: Naive - EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd (40.6 %)
    Nature: Naughty - EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd (37.7 %)
    Nature: Naughty - EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd (14.5 %)
    Nature: Naive - EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd (7.2 %)
    Ice Beam
    Waterfall
    Crunch
    Shell Smash

    Again, only set it can run without being totally outclassed. Huntail was medoicre in LU, now it's mediocre in NU. I would've expected a little bit higher usage though.
    [/HIDE]
     
  2. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    On a side note, I'd quite like to see a retest of Jynx in NU. If there weren't enough checks before, there certainly will be now.
     
  3. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    ^Agreeing here. Primeape is a brilliant check, being able to switch in on a Lovely Kiss thanks to Vital Spirit and at least force a Speed tie. If it hits, U-turn will annihilate it. Houndoom and Drapion both do wonderfully, both boasting the same Speed stats and being able to trap with Pursuit and Crunch/Sucker Punch. Hell, Houndoom resists both STABs and can even give Early Bird a try if it wants.
     
  4. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    Personally, I think we should wait a little while longer, to make sure that the tier is "in working order" before retesting Jynx. While the new retests are all very useful in checking Jynx, I don't think that just throwing things into a tier is a good idea until the tier is balanced.

    That isn't to say that I think any of the drops are broken, but there is a lot going on in the tier right now.


    People need to use Drapion more. This thing is amazing. With Crunch, Taunt, Pursuit, SD, Earthquake, and Toxic Spikes, there is a lot that this mon can do for a team. a Bulky Taunt + SD set will put major dents in defensive teams, while a Pursuit + Taunt set will shutdown Ghost-types. Toxic Spikes with some bulk can help prevent set-up sweepers, while a full offensive SD set can sweep teams. I love using this thing in NU.
     
  5. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    I think a Jynx retest would be fine. It has plenty of checks / counters in Houndoom, (SDef) Drapion, Metang, and really any faster physical attacker can revenge it rather easily.
    With Stealth Rocks and other hazards being common due to the lack of a good NU spinner, Jynx is even more vulnerable to taking huge amounts of damage amongst switching-in, too.
    Finally, I don't think there's much point in waiting, if the tier is undergoing change now, we might as well throw this into the equation as opposed to when the metagame is balanced and Jynx will just be detrimental towards the state of the metagame.
     
  6. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Actually, throwing in a pokemon that has proven broken before while the current metagame hasn't settled just yet is much more detrimental than waiting and then seeing if the metagame can handle jynx. I'd like to make sure people don't have second thoughts on Houndoom or anything else really before I go ahead with Jynx.

    We can start a retest next week, let's just be sure we don't want to ban something else before throwing another new pokemon into the tier. After all, the tier's never shifted so radically before this change, or at least not in a long while.
     
  7. Luck>Skill

    Luck>Skill Well-Known Member

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    Personally, right after the Jynx test ends I would really like to see a Gothorita suspect

    Seriously it's ridicolous, it can set up to +6 easily on basically every wall without a phaze move (Vileplume Alomomola etc) or at least kill them easily, I have seen a Gothorita with Toxic and Rest beating a CM Bell Musharna 1 on 1

    What annoys me is the insane amount of support it brings to the match: Choiced fighting types can't really use their fighting STAB or they will fall prey to Gothorita, choiced Psychic pokes are on the same boat, although they are a lot more rare. It also should be noted that, while it is true that after Gothorita has killed a poke you can always send in a Dark type and kill it easily, it is also true that you'll have lost a poke without any chance of doing anything.

    Hell, I've been using a team with Trapinch + Gothorita and I can always trap a poke + Skuntank / Houndoom with minimal effort

    Gothorita is detirmental to the tier, Shadow Tag is detrimental to the nature of competitive mons, since you are supposed to be able to play around threats, and you can't play around Shadow Tag

    Personally I'd like to see a Gothorita ban, we could even ban Shadow Tag but that wouldn't change much (who would use Gothorita without Shadow Tag? I can see Gothitelle but Gothorita...)
     
  8. Big Bad Booty Daddy

    Big Bad Booty Daddy Big Poppa Pump

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    Also, the effect that Gothorita has on stall teams is insane. You can't really play around Gothorita on stall like you MIGHT be able to on a balanced/offensive team.

    Although it doesn't see a large amount of usage, Gothorita makes it incredibly hard/semi-impossible to run a full functioning stall team. Sure you could have a Dark-type Pokemon (I.e, Skuntank/Zweilous) but Shadow Tag in itself doesn't let switches, and like Luck said, takes away from the competitive nature from Pokemanz.

    I second this choice to suspect Gothorita, or possibly Shadow Tag as a whole.
     
  9. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I can agree with this. Shadow Tag is a horrible ability to fight against, and Gothorita isn't really seen often, so there won't be much harm in removing her from the tier anyways, lol.
     
  10. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Why's everyone always so worried about protecting stall? Let it die, it's a really irritating strategy anyway. Offensive teams have enough diversity to keep the metagame fresh. Swear to whatever deity you believe in (or on your life if you don't believe in any of them) that you enjoy facing stall teams.
     
  11. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    It's not so much protecting stall; I hate it myself. But Gothorita is really just very very annoying, and not having her in the tier, however rarely she's seen anyways, will be a huge benefit imo.
     
  12. Dzi

    Dzi So Nyuh Shi Dae

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    Seconding Gothorita suspect. Shadow Tag is a powerful ability, that even a NFE pokemon can use it effectively.

    And about Dr.Doom saying that stall is an irritating strategy, I agree that stall is irritating but it depends on your team. Teams with amazing wall breakers like Emboar and Samrott won't have a hard time dealing with stall. You should always be prepared to face stall, in other words, deal with it.
     
  13. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    I don't have a hard time dealing with it, I just don't get why everyone's so keen to protect it. I don't think Gothorita's broken myself, since it is very underpowered. There are also plenty of Dark types in NU that can deal with it - Drapion, Skuntank, Houndoom, Crawdaunt. Shadow Tag's a powerful ability, but it can only really trap and eliminate walls. Against offensive or hyper offensive teams, it won't be much use besides acting as a deterrent to stop Sawk spamming Close Combat.
     
  14. Fosco

    Fosco .dancin

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    The point is not protecting stall; stall is not very viable anyways due to the offensive nature of this tier. With CM + Rest Gotho gives troubles to balanced teams destroying their defensive cores easily, so you can spam the moves they are supposed to wall. Once they are down it becomes a game of revenge kills. Fun! Gotho can even set up on some offensive choice locked mons. At that point your only chance to kill it is to land a critical, and sometimes you need two or three crits in a row, it's just ridicolous.
    On the topic of "pursuit trapping Gotho to death is an easy job":

    252Atk Life Orb Skuntank (+Atk) Pursuit vs 252HP/252Def Eviolite switching Gothorita (+Def): 54% - 65% (176 - 212 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    If you play Gotho conservatively you may be able to come in again after a pursuit and trap another mon. That's not so easy as it is on paper counting residual damage from SR, etc... but still.
     
  15. two sides of one coin

    two sides of one coin sick of all her shit

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    The point of "let stall die" is completely unfair. Firstly, stall is just as viable a playstyle as any other - it might be funner to use a hyper offensive team with hazard setters but while Pokémon is a fun game it doesn't mean that if something's not fun we shouldn't give a shit about it. Secondly, it doesn't just trouble stall, it single-handedly rapes it with a piece of glass. And it doesn't just affect stall either - if you don't have a trapper in NU it will just switch in and out with impunity on anything Choice-locked. Even if you have the requisite skill to KO one of your opponent's mon it can just waltz in, KO it, and leave. And even if you do trap it, it's done its job. An example would be it trapping Alomomola. Even if you Pursuit-trap it back with Skuntank, they'll KO your whole team with CB Emboar spamming Flare Blitzes. It's going to KO what it traps if the player using it has any brains, so the best-case scenario is that it traps your wall and dies. This is assuming it's sacced for no reason, which it shouldn't be. It removes any semblance of skill from the game and it should go.
     
  16. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    You guys are way over exaggerating Gothorita's viability. You're acting like it's going to kill whatever it traps. It won't - unless the Pokémon has no offensive prowess whatsoever, or is Choice locked into the wrong move, there's a good chance it'll lose. There are many Dark types in the tier that can all take it out. Yes, it doesn't have any true counters since the Pokémon can't switch out. But Charizard doesn't have any true counters, and that's not broken. And you act as if NU will breathe a sigh of relief with it gone - it won't make any difference.

    Usage in May 2013: 1.25085 646
    Source

    Can't believe we're even having this discussion. How could a Pokémon with 1% usage be broken and/or over centralising? If it was as good as you're making it out to be, why isn't it on every team? Why's it languishing right down at 1% if it can trap and KO any wall in the tier?

    And your comments about Band Emboar don't hold water. If you're relying solely on Alomomola to check it, you need to reexamine your team. There's loads of Pokémon who can all reliably revenge kill Band Emboar without much trouble. Charizard, Rotom-S, Simipour, Musharna, Gardevoir, special Samurott, Archeops, Focus Sash Kadabra...So no, it won't ravage your team with Alomomola down.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2013
  17. Big Bad Booty Daddy

    Big Bad Booty Daddy Big Poppa Pump

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    I don't think you fully understand why we suspect Pokemon, and why we ban Pokemon. We ban Pokemon to create a fair, ideal metagame where any play style is fairly viable. With Gothorita being in the tier, it's very hard to run stall, nearly impossible. This is also talk about the idea of Shadow Tag, ruining the nature of Competitive Pokemon.

    Although his comment about Band Emboar isn't the strongest, and he might want to watch his language when posting about these kind of topics, he kinda begins to mention why Gothorita is so good. The ability to trap an incredible amount of defensive Pokemon in NU is almost staggering. Which Luck and I believe is very detrimental, and if it's only 1%, there's no reason why you should care if it gets suspected! If you have a Pokemon you believe that SHOULD be suspected, I encourage you to post your ideas on it. This is a Potential Suspects Thread, let's treat it like one.
     
  18. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Deoxys and Deoxys A had less than 5% usage when they were suspected in OU, yet they both were banned once people realized they were allowed in the tier. The same can happen with Gothorita. Low usage and a pokemon being broken are not mutually exclusive. It's just that the broken shit normally gets the spotlight.

    And both were good enough to have at least 15%+ usage as well.
     
  19. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    I agree it should be suspected, i've abused it in the past alongside SD samurott, its very easy to trap and toxic stall things like Alomomola and other walls that have little to no offensive presence, and there is nothing the opponent can do about it.

    Lets get rid of riolu while we're at it ;)
     
  20. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    OK, well if you're going to suspect Gothorita despite it being a complete waste of everyone's time, you might as well suspect Wynaut while you're at it. That can encore moves to make anything set up fodder, and trap and kill most scarfers with its CounterCoat combination.
     
  21. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I'd actually like the removal of Riolu. Sure, it's another thing that's practically never seen, but its Prankster + Copycat + Roar strategy is literally worse than Hitler. Apart from Shadow Tag + Entrainment Truant Durant, it has to be the cheapest thing alive. D:
     
  22. Fosco

    Fosco .dancin

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    Dr. Doom I'm feeling like you never played against Gothorita. The usage doesn't mean anything at all, but if you look for a proof of its viability, I've seen this thing being used in several POWC matches, and everytime it was decisive for the outcome of the match.
    Wynaut is not the same with its relatively low HP stat and its 'passive' nature which only allows him to revenge kill choice mons locked in weak attacks.

    Riolu is in the same boat of Liepard imo, it can be very annoying if you have a bad matchup with it (lack of Protect users/priority) but it's not necessarily broken, it's just uncompetitive.

    [OT] Entrainment has never been a problem, just switch out when they use Entrainment [/OT]
     
  23. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    I've faced it a couple of times - both times, it went down without accomplishing anything. I hadn't built my team for it (why bother when it's only at 1% usage), and the same checks for Musharna, Mesprit and now Gardevoir also work for Gothorita. I've tried to use it myself, and it could only really trap and kill walls. Having a decisive income in a match doesn't make a Pokémon broken. Calm Mind Dusion can destroy stall better than Gothorita - it packs more punch, is bulkier and has reliable recovery. And yes, usage does matter. I refuse to accept that a Pokémon that can only take out pure walls or choice locked Fighting types and only features in 1/100 battles (roughly) is anywhere near broken.

    If it does get suspected and banned, do you think that's going to change anything? Do you think stall teams will suddenly become popular? They won't: it will barely make any difference at all. Ergo: what is the point?
     
  24. two sides of one coin

    two sides of one coin sick of all her shit

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    Not to be bitter, but when we banned things in OU that clearly weren't broke (hi deod) then usage didn't matter, and then everyone used Custap Skarm and nothing changed. It's not a case of usage or a case of us trying to boost styles; stall might not be used even with it gone but the fact is stall can't be used with it around.
     
  25. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    This isn't exactly the place to be mad about bans in OU (of Pokemon that were righfully deemed broken in all of the Competitive Pokemon communities. Also, it's departure from OU changes the tier quite a bit.)
    Anyway, your correlating the banned OU Pokemon being replaced by a current OU Pokemon to Gothorita in NU being banned makes no sense whatsoever.
    There are no other (good) Shadow Taggers (Wynaut is shit) allowed in NU.
    The banning of Gothorita (or Shadow Tag) will be killing a cancer to the metagame.

    Also, not sure if you play NU or not, but stall is still viable. However, Gothorita prevents it from being effective.
    Utilizing stall is still effective a majority of the time, since Gothorita is still pretty uncommon.
     
  26. Incon

    Incon I feel incapable of seeing the end.

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    What are the current thoughts on Houndoom now that he's been in the tier for a bit?

    I personally haven't had much trouble with him. While he has great offensive presence, his frailty and weak defensive typing are a let down. He's worn down easily by hazards, being hit by all of them and taking 25% damage each time he switches in from Stealth Rocks. He's weak to some very common types in the tier (Fighting, Ground, Water), and with low defensive stats, he can't take many neutral hits either. To combat trapping Houndoom (and trappers in general), I've been running Hp Ground of Max Def Musharna. If Musharna doesn't switch out on a predicted Pursuit, she takes roughly only 26% damage, while dealing almost 50% back to Houndoom. Take into account Hazard damage and LO Recoil (assuming those are in play), and Houndoom loses this match up. I'm sure he works much better against less bulky Psychic Types such as Gardevoir, but he still must predict correctly in order to not get slammed by a Focus Blast. His most common set is walled by Defensive Rock-Types such as Regirock and Golem who can then proceed to set up in his face or hit with a strong STAB. While Nasty Plot isn't walled as easily, he has a tough time setting up and can still be worn down. Any Scarfer can easily take it out because of its frailty. I'm not saying Houndoom is bad, it's just not as good as I thought it would be.
     
  27. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Houndoom did seem a bit broken at first.
    However, once you used it and played against it, Houndoom fit in.
    Nobody really used the Nasty Plot set, but it's a moderate threat. Not any bulk to back it up hurts :/
    The Trapper set is basically an offensive, but frail Skuntank with much better mixed attacking ability and less stallbreaker / taunting ability.
    I'd have to say it's fine in the tier!
     
  28. Hot N Cold

    Hot N Cold Active Member

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    In my opinion Houndoom is broken at this tier.

    For offensive teams is like the ultimate staple for this playstyle, being inmunity to Psychic and Fire types. Very versatil with priority, great coverage, pursuit. The only reliable counter is Emboar Scarf thought. But well played can get down with hazards and flare blitz / wild charge / head smash get down of Emboar pretty easy, at least isnt weak to Stealth Rock. This makes awesome / overpowered paired with stuff like Sawk or Primeape trapping the best checks / counters of this mons like Misdreavus, Haunter or Musharna.

    Nasty Plot just wrecks any defensive team w/o Munchlax Resttalker and you need be careful if runs Hidden Power Fighting with Spikes + lucky with the Sleep Talks.
     
  29. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    Any Emboar counters houndoom, not scarfed. Lickilicky does a pretty good job as well, Thick fat Harriyama, Mach punch/Aqua jet both score super effective hits with priority on his weaker defensive side. Combusken/Monferno (both pretty underused imo) both counter it. it isn't the best haunter counter either, being a speed tie. It defo doesn't want to take an HP ground/fighting after rocks. It's frailty doesn't let it often get a chance to set up a NP either, mixed set runs a -def nature so it stays in only if it has a deathwish vs a physical attacker. It also added more variety instead of skunktank being the only good anti psychic poke. Musharna is able to T wave it and baton pass out, physically defensive taking about 45% from a crunch.
     
  30. Big Bad Booty Daddy

    Big Bad Booty Daddy Big Poppa Pump

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    Sorry to interrupt this discussion but Finchinator and Incon are now appointed to NU Tier Leader, please congratulate them on their success.

    To add on, Houndoom is definitely one of the strongest Pokemon in NU, due to its history in UU, a lot of people believe that it HAS to be broken. Being incredibly frail and weakness to the two most common priority moves is certainly detrimental to the success of Houndoom in NU. That doesn't mean it's not broken of course. Although personally using it in NU, the weakness to Rocks, frailty, inability to switch into moves (I know it has immunity to Psychic and Fire-types, but if the opponent goes for something else...) and weakness to priority is certainly bad for Houndoom.

    Anybody have anything else to say on Houndoom?
     
  31. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Houndoom did seem broken to me at first, as I'm sure it did to nearly everyone else (thanks to it's UU History, as Cased stated.)
    However, It's Pursuit / Sucker Punch / Fire Blast / (Crunch or HP Grass) set is the most common and it's just a step-up from Skuntank.
    With much more offensive (especially mixed) potential as well as a better typing, Houndoom does a much better job as trapper in a tier full of Psychic types. The thing is, it's hindered by Stealth Rocks (and other hazards), Life Orb, and it's on the frailer end. Ultimately, I can see why many consider it problematic, but it's not broken. Emboar, Alomomola, Wartortle, and Regirock are just a few pokemon that can check (some can counter) that set pretty well.
    The Nasty Plot set would be an answer to most of these (not to mention it has the ability to 2hko nearly everything), but it really hasn't been seeing the love it should be in NU. Plenty of pokemon can wreck the majority of the tier they're in (hell, look at Victini in UU, Durant in LU, or Landorus-I in OU) and don't have it on the bulky end of things, leaving them with pitiful survivability.
    Although being revenge killed, vulnerable to hazards, and a few other things I mentioned are run-of-the-mill weaknesses that can apply to practically anything, it realistically shows that Houndoom has so much going against it that it is fine in NU.

    Pokemon high in usage that can revenge Houndoom (or stand a good chance at walling it):
    Sawk 21.9209 4281
    Samurott 13.385 2614
    Seismitoad 11.1012 2168
    Manectric 9.35004 1826
    Gurdurr 9.32956 1822
    Alomomola 8.9916 1756
    Wartortle 8.58196 1676
    Drapion 7.46057 1457 (Depends on sets)
    Sawsbuck 7.42985 1451
    Lickilicky 7.34792 1435
    Primeape 7.33768 1433
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2013
  32. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    On a side note; dear God, look at those Sawk usage stats. O.o

    But yeah, I personally don't see Houndoom as broken. He may be one of my favourite pokemon, and one I'd love to see in higher tiers, but I reckon NU is a good home for him. He gets the usage he deserves, gets to fuck shit up on a daily basis, and doesn't overpower the tier because there are plenty of commonly used threats that keep him in check. :3
     
  33. emac

    emac Emad

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    That's it, Emad is putting his foot down. Liepard must go. Some kid got up to third on the ladder in one day abusing assist and roar. It's quite possibly the stupidest thing that I've ever seen. They just roar until the game is over. Don't even get me started on swagger+foul play.

    I have no clue why we haven't kicked this thing yet.

    Inb4 "mad"
     
  34. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Alright, at least you posted in the right place (previously, a user posted a whole thread about it which I had to delete and send him a warning about.)

    Anyway, if you guys have been following the Pokemon Online Wifi NU Tier, or lurking the subforum, you'd know that when Pokemonerd and Cased led the tier earlier this year, Lieprad (and it's malevolent pranks) were kind of a suspect. However, we deemed it not-ban-worthy, or however you'd like to call it, due to: A) It Causing a silly complex ban, B) It being the users choice to use, be able to stop, etc., and C) It being stoppable - just very annoying and only really productive under precise conditions.

    Emad, you know better than to bring this up, again.
    I was a second away from infracting you. Don't do this again.

    It's been the only reason I've lost on the ladder, bar Shell Smash Gorebyss, but it's going to have to stay for now guys. I feel your pain!
    The Neverused Tier Leaders (including myself) understand that it's very annoying and makes the ladder utter hell to play on, test, etc.
    But, it's one of those things that is just there to stay - like it or not.

    Sorry is all I can really say!
     
  35. emac

    emac Emad

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    What if the tier leaders decide to re-open discussion?
     
  36. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    I'll discuss with Incon now and Cased when he gets back from LOA.

    Speaking about discussing, how about you guys focus on the Gothorita Suspect Discussion. It's going to come to an end soon!

    Cased, Incon, and I will make a final decision once Cased's back fron LOA, as well as discuss the possibility for reopening of discussion on Prankster / Lieprad / other uncompetitive tactics along these lines.
     
  37. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    I honestly think liepard deserves another suspect discussion, it is just ridiculous; it does not promote fair games, just lol let me spam assist 50 times in a row then dark pulse after copying the same team. It isn't something you can make your own variation of, it's just facing the same annoying team over and over.

    I'm not even talking about the swagger foul play set there, don't even get me started. I know that you say "oh you can play around it" but that can be said about ANYTHING.
    Jynx, "oh, why didnt you use sleep talk metang and insomnia hypno?" :L
     
  38. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Did I not just go over saying that this'll be discussed later, in the last post!? Come on. Read the post(s) above prior to making your own post on the subject at hand.

    There's a time and a place for everything, but not now. (Just like when Oak says you can't use your Bike inside in Pokemon games!!! You can't talk about liepard until Gothorita is finished and Cased / Incon / I discuss.)

    Nitpick: Assist has 32 PP, it couldn't be spammed 50 times.

    (For those of you that have been watching me play / are friendly with me, I just rage quit because of Liepard. It's there, people use it, it's stupid and uncompetitive - we get it. You'll just have to cope with it for now!)
     
  39. Big Bad Booty Daddy

    Big Bad Booty Daddy Big Poppa Pump

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    hai i am bak from my LOA and i wil do tier leadr stuf.

    I'll talk with Finch and Incon once I see them on the server when it's not 3am.

    IF we re-open the discussion, please note that there will be a lot more infracted posts since we won't be as lenient as we were with the old Suspecting Liepard thread. A lot of the threads were barely mediocre.
     
  40. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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