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[BW2] Suspect Discussion: Gothorita

Discussion in 'Gen 5 NU' started by Big Bad Booty Daddy, Jun 9, 2013.

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  1. Big Bad Booty Daddy

    Big Bad Booty Daddy Big Poppa Pump

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    [​IMG]

    With the discussion of the possibility of banning Gothorita in the Potential Suspects Thread (Read down to view opinions) Luck and I have decided to create a suspect thread on Gothorita.

    Discuss the possibility of Gothorita being banned from the NU Tier.

    Name the things that Gothorita does well, its strengths, its weaknesses, and make sure your posts include facts and keep in mind the opposing argument before you go shoving your opinion down everyone's throat. Use Gothorita on the ladder and create an opinion on it if you've never used it before instead of hardcore Theorymonning.

    We'll take everybody's opinion into consideration if it's intelligent or backed up by reasonable evidence. After about 2-3 weeks and everybody has posted their final opinion, Finch, Incon, and I will discuss the issue and make a final decision.

    Let the discussion begin!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 18, 2013
  2. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Really? Suspecting a Pokémon with 1% usage? What is this coming to...

    Gohtorita's sub par attack power means it can only really trap and kill either pure walls with no offensive prowess or Choice Locked Sawk and Primeape locked into Close Combat or Specs Gardevoir locked into Psychic. Its pure Psychic typing means it lacks resitances, and it has no reliable recovery. I've faced it a few times, and in none of those matches was it very effective. I've also tried using it, and it was pretty much useless beyond trapping and killing walls like Alomomola. Duosion is a better stallkiller due to the fact it packs it much greater punch, is immune to Toxic damage and has reliable recovery.

    Banning it is pointless and will make no difference. Ergo, No Ban.
     
  3. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Hi, Blazekin went UU before we banned it, Deoxys-D was only BL since we banned it in UU before it went Uber, Durant has piss weak usage in LU when it was banned (now it is back) in LU a while back.
    You sense the trend? Sure, usage may have a little correlation to possibly being a suspect / broken, but it isn't that big of a factor.

    Anyway, as stated in the previous thread, Gothorita has Shadow Tag which is plain unhealthy to the metagame.
    Getting rid of this cancer is a step-up from current NU because it basically makes using Alomomola, Fighting types, stall, etc. unable to do anything when you face them. Also, it can easily set up to +6 and potentially sweep, if they lack a dark type.
     
  4. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Well theres 2 viable sets Gothorita can run:

    Calm Mind:
    Gothorita (F) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Shadow Tag
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Rest
    - Hidden Power [Ground]
    - Psychic

    This is what i believe to be the cheaper of the 2 sets (though theyre both cheap/uncompetitive tbh) able to easily come in on a pokemon choice locked into a resisted move or come in on a wall with a very weak offensive presence and set up to +6. From here it can sweep through the rest of the opponents team, even if they have a dark type, skuntank can only 2hko at best and is ohko'd in return by +6 hp ground. You then have to hope you have another dark type or have a very strong physically based pokemon to take her out. This works very well when paired with another calm mind user such as musharna, able to overload and destroy the opponent after theyve sacrificed all their checks + counters to kill goth.

    252 Atk BlackGlasses Skuntank (+Atk) Crunch vs 252 HP/252 Def Eviolite Gothorita (+Def) : 51.85% - 61.11% (2 hits to KO)[/HIDE]

    Toxic Stall:
    Gothorita (M) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Shadow Tag
    EVs: 252 HP / 212 Def / 44 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Taunt
    - Toxic
    - Psychic
    - Rest

    This set is solely designed to to stall out walls with toxic. Alomomola, Wartortle and many more can be easily trapped and left helpless and toxic wears them down. Leaving something like SD Sam to sweep through the rest of the opponents team.[/HIDE]

    Due to it's wholly uncompetitive nature and it's ability to single handedly destroy stall, i deem Gothorita broken.
     
  5. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    Sorry to derail the discussion for a moment, but what exactly is "theorymoning" heard the term thrown around a few times :o
     
  6. Scene

    Scene reverie

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    Essentially coming to conclusions without having played with the pokemon or in the tier in question. For example, we can theorymon about the effect Gen 6's new pokemon will have on OU or whatever you want.
     
  7. Fosco

    Fosco .dancin

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    Not much to add to what I said in the Potential Suspect, I used Gotho myself and it can trap all the walls lacking a phazing move plus some offensive mons that can't hit her with a (STAB) supereffective move. Roselia, Alomomola, Licki, Garbodor, Seismitoad, Mantine, Sawk, Primeape, and more are trapkilled with CM + Rest, Taunt + Toxic or simply PPstalled if they are choicelocked.
    Shadow Tag is an insanely broken ability when it's paired with enough offensive capability, and Gothorita, despite being "only" a NFE, has the offensive power to be broken, at least in the NU environment. Ban this thing.
     
  8. Big Bad Booty Daddy

    Big Bad Booty Daddy Big Poppa Pump

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    I'm not sure you have a clue in making suspect posts, also, I'm not sure you've used Gothorita's best set, which is Toxic CM Psychic Rest. This set literally sets up +6 easily on an incredible amount of defensive Pokemon without phazing moves. Lickilicky, Roselia, Alomomola, Mantine, Seismitoad, Non-exploding Garbodors, (Fosco named a lot of them, darn him.) But do you really think that's good for the tier? The support Gothorita brings into a match is literally insane. Like Luck said before, Choiced Fighting and Psychic-types are unable to use their STAB.

    Running stall is near impossible with Gothorita around. Because it sets up on literally 90% on most stall teams. And it makes people shy away from using stall in the tier. A good, balanced, and fun tier is a tier that all playstyles can be run in, maybe not all of them are equal in being effective, but no style is a lot better than another. And with Gothorita in the tier, we believe that stall takes a HUGE hit.

    We won't even consider your opinion unless you're able to create smarter posts. Comparing two Pokemon who happen to be Psychic-types and access to Calm Mind isn't smart considering their abilities literally make them two totally different Pokemon. Which is why we're clearly creating this suspect.
     
  9. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Delta Stream

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    Well, I've just been easing into the NU metagame, but from what I can tell, Gothorita is extremely broken in the tier. The ability to trap stallers and set up to +6 on them is frighteningly OP. While it's true that they can be revenge killed with relative ease, one who uses Gothorita can still plow through many Pokemon before being revenge killed. And...if you do SubCM, and your Sub isn't broken, well then, you get the opportunity to kill your opponent's revenge killer and continue sweeping.

    However, even though I agree Gothorita is broken in NU, the question is, how far should we ban it? I could easily see Gothorita broken in NU as well, and it's because Shadow Tag is extremely broken. Back when I was a newb to competitive mons, I created a No Preview Ubers team with SubCM Chandelure and I could set up on so many Pokemon and destroy sh*t. My peak is in my sig ;). The thing is, you just go into a special move you resist, set up CM, and goo. It takes little to no effort on the user's part. My solution for this to end is - Ban Shadow Tag to Ubers. That way, Gothorita could still be in NU without its Shadow Tag and not be broken :D.
     
  10. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    You are way overrating this thing. If it really is as amazing as you guys claim, why isn't it in the top 10? Why is it languishing right down at 1% if it can demolish stall teams by itself, as you guys claim? Also Cased, that set sucks - it can't touch Steel types before being at +6 and is useless late game.

    Reasons for banning a Pokemon in the past:

    Too powerful - not the case with Gothorita
    Too bulky - not the case with Gothorita
    Overcentralising - not the case with Gothorita
    Completely breaks the tier - not the case with Gothorita
    No viable checks/counters - not the case with Gothorita
    Hurts a playstyle - no question, it hurts stall teams, but no more so than some of the other Pokémon in NU. Running a stall team won't be any easier with it gone, I guarantee you. This suspect discussion is pointless. Why are we even suspecting a Pokémon that isn't remotely broken?
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2013
  11. Incon

    Incon I feel incapable of seeing the end.

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    The set that Cased mentioned is Gothorita's best, without a doubt. It easily sets up on walls, bypasses status with Rest, and slowly wears down the opponent while setting up to +6. Gothorita still beats most steel types one on one and this set works in any circumstance, not just in the early phase of the battle. Gothorita is being suspected because she single-handidly makes Stall an unviable gameplay option in the NU tier. Her trapping and wall breaking capabilities are too good for the playstyle. If you're facing a Gothorita with a stall team, she can poke holes in your team that ruin your Stall comp. While the offensive nature of the tier still makes it hard to pull off stall, a well constructed team can work without running the risk of getting destroyed by one Pokemon with her gone. I understand that you hate facing stall, but a healthy tier is one in which every playstyle is viable and with Goth around, the tier isn't as healthy as it could be.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2013
  12. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    While it can't quite eliminate threats as easily as Gothitelle did, Gothorita still finds it far too easy to get a switch in and either eliminate or set up on a defensive pokemon (Alomomola being a prime example here, a common defensive wall that is total set up bait for Gothorita). In a metagame where threat coverage is vital, any team with one or more defensive pokemon faces an immediate disadvantage to a team with Gothorita regardless of how well either side predicts or plays, rendering it an uncompetitive element in the tier. For that reason I am pro banning Gothorita.
     
  13. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    [Why wasn't Genesect in the top ten, why was it languishing down near the BL cut-off (prior to it's ban)??? - just to use your logic in another situation]
    Ah, I see we're once again using usage statistics as our primary argument.
    Spoiler: If you cannot come up with a reasonable counter-argument for what the other person says in response to your initial argument, odds are they're correct and..you're not. I don't mean to be an asshole, and I'm sure I seem like one, but Usage Statistics aren't really a viable main reason / arguement for a Pokemon to be deemed not broken. Sure, it can be a supporting factor...but not much more.
    Also, Cased's set isn't bad, not at all. Besides Klingklang, how many common / threatening steel types are there in NU? Aha, you see? Few to none. That set is free to outstall them all.
     
  14. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Gothorita is not broken because:

    Against almost anything but pure stall it's little more than dead weight. Most stall teams these days are semi-stall - a team with no offensive presence at all is never going to work well. Pure Psychic typing offers it few useful resistances, and it is complete Taunt bait. Beyond trapping and stalling out Alomomola, Weezing and Choice Sawk locked into Close Combat, what else is it good for? It can't touch Skuntank and Drapion, while Skuntank can put it in a checkmate position with Taunt and Sucker Punch while Drapion can set up either Swords Dance or Toxic Spikes in its face. Klinklang also turns it into set up fodder. Although it hates Toxic, Houndoom can take it out too. Pure walls aren't all that useful in NU anyway, since they often find themselves set up fodder for anything with Substitute (Klinklang and Crawdaunt commonly run Substitute, just an example).

    Even though I'm in the minority, I'm sticking to my guns on this.
     
  15. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    Gothorita is able to switch into common walls such as alom, tangela, licki, etc and toxic stall, even if they have heal bell, there are 8 heal bells and 16 toxics. After goth takes down said wall, it opens up holes for this such as CB sawk, Samurott, etc to punch through. I haven't had extensive testing with it yet, but with my testing, it is very easy to get at least 1 kill with it using the toxic stall set and allow something else to sweep. Goth is not only good vs stall, almost every team has something bulky that is just dead vs goth, things such as alom, fighting types choice locks, psychic types choice locked, weaker physical attackers, walls, clerics even. Sure, it is set up fodder for kling (the toxic stall set), but lol, why would you stay in vs kling with that, however, the CM hp ground psychic set, if it set up enough, will ohko said kling. Houndoom will also be ohkoed and only get off around 50% with a crunch, same goes for drapion and skunky.

    I'll post a larger list later but common things that just die to goth are

    Seismitoad - Choiced sawk/primeape -Mush - vileplume - weaker choiced pokes such as scard rotom locked into tbolt - Roselia
    Tangela - alom -licki - piloswine - Golem -dual screeners - other SR pokes w/o uturn/explosion - Garboder w/o explo

    the list just goes on. What you need to understand is, you will be switching into something that can't touch Goth, and just set up/toxic stall. Taunt is useless when you've hit +6. It's not setup Fodder at +6. It is pretty much guaranteed one kill. I'm going to say BROKEN. for now at least
     
  16. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Gothorita is extremely bulky with Eviolite and defensive investment.
    It can switch-in on and out-stall / Calm Mind on a plethora of offensive threats and then the previously mentioned defensive threats.
    Since you're insisting on bringing usage statistics into the equation, lets take the top 21 Pokemon (because my stupid phone cannot copy only 20)
    (bolded = trapped. Italics = usually trapped. Underlined = eh, situational. Nothing = beats goth.)

    Sawk 18.4761 9542 - Unless it is CB and prior damage / maximum hazards are up, Gothorita can trap and defeat Sawk. Also, it's generally used as fodder.

    Samurott 17.1498 8857 - It can, occasionally, beat the Special set 1v1. Hydro won't do a ton to 252/4 Gothorita. Then, it CMs and rests (If it's Restalk, odds are even better. Regardless, it'll likely stall out Hydros and win.) Swords Dance Samurott beats it, unless it comes into boosted Gothorita.

    Mesprit 15.349 7927 - It maybe able to u-turn out, otherwise it cannot do much.
    Gothorita can just set-up.

    Manectric 14.8262 7657 - Can usually volt switch out or do decent damage with T-Bolt. However, it cannot lock int Overhet / HP Grass.

    Piloswine 14.4544 7465 - If it's a Roar version, it'll phase. Usual set that lacks roar is dead.

    Houndoom 13.2927 6865 - Unless it is coming in after something has been trapped and Gothorita is boosted and has HP Ground, this is a solid counter. Dark moves all 2HKO it.

    Klinklang 13.0855 6758 - Klingklang can easily set-up all over Gothorita. However, as Houndoom is, be wary of boosted HP Ground if you're coming in post-trap.

    Primeape 11.9469 6170 - Can U-turn out or punishment boosted Gothy. But, cannot lock into CC / Stone Edge / Ice Punch.

    Musharna 11.2731 5822 - They can CM Up and assuming there are no crits and Musharna is mono-attack, (or just laks signal beam) Gothorita outstall a since it uses rest. Toxic can be synchronized, but then Gothy rests - a quicker way to beat Musharna.

    Skuntank 10.669 5510 - Like Houndoom, can 2HKO Gothorita. Cannot take boosted HP Grounds post-trap, otherwise skunk is a good counter.

    Tangela 9.64275 4980 - can sleep and seed Gothorita, won't damage it once it gets CMs up or if it's Restalk.
    Also, Gothorita plain beats it via outstalling.

    Seismitoad 9.35425 4831 - Unless offensive, it won't hurt Gothorita that greatly. Even if it has max SAtk, will be trapped and outstalled once a CM or two is up.

    Gardevoir 9.34069 4824 - Offensive can beat it 1v1. Bulky support will get outstalled. They can both CM up and comes down to sets.

    Misdreavus 9.33488 4821 - Can taunt / attack / set-up on. Good check if it isn't coming in post-trap vs a boosted psychic.

    Armaldo 9.24969 4777 - Can deal out 2HKOs with stab bug. Cannot take boosted psychics. Another check.

    Gurdurr 8.58747 4435 - Can be trapped and set-up on if it lacks bulk up and/or Payback. (Unless you're cased and you run taunt!)

    Alomomola 8.58554 4434 - TRAPPED.

    Vileplume 8.50808 4394 - TRAPPED.

    Swellow 8.08403 4175 - Does big damage. Takes big damage.

    Haunter 8.07823 4172 - Does big damage. Takes big damage.

    Wartortle 7.35986 3801 - TRAPPED! Outstalled if it has haze!


    Furthermore, Gothorita is especially a threat against stall. However, it also functions as a momentum killer and effective trapper against offensive Pokemon due to it's bulk with Eviolite and acces to Calm Mins + Rest.
    It's broken, thanks to it's ability in this metagame.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2013
  17. Nikitas

    Nikitas Member

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    I do not play NU atm but I want to emphasize that Usage means nearly nothing. Gothitelle in UU had 2.5% usage and was deemed broken due to making stall unplayable. Gothorita is in a similar boat in NU and I do not even have to look at the pokemon used. Most walls lack the firepower to break through an eviolite pokemon and many of them lack phazing moves too. Also, if most sets use Rest then Gothi can PP stall walls that it cannot beat through other methods (Setup, Status).
    Lastly, it is not able to 6-0 well made stall teams but by removing one key pokemon (alomomola for example) it opens an unclosable hole due to stall's nature (hi Emboar, Sawk).
     
  18. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    After a little bit of play testing with goth, I can say it is broken. Not only stall is weak to it, when you make a team, one of your first worries is, "Do I have a sock (sawk) counter". Goth removes these counters and lets you destrolish with sawk/primeape. It can do the same thing to special walls like licky, with just a few more toxics needed if you're using the toxic stall set.

    The offensive set is just as good, it easily switches into several pokes (look at previous posts for details) and sets up to +6, things that can "counter" it such as mesprit can't do anything when it's at +6 and, for the sake of arguement we'll stick with mesprit since it is high up on the usage charts, mesprit has no reliable recovery to wall goth. Goth is easily able to nab at least 1 kill and usually 2, if not more. Dr. doom said "See, goth isn't broken" after he lost Roselia (I think it was roselia) and Skunktank which gave it the damage needed for Ramparados to finish the job. That is a 2 for 1 deal and it showed me what set ramparados was. If he did not have another poke as powerful as rampardos, aka sawk who lacks crunch and whos stab is resisted, Goth could have just swept. No poke should need TWO counters to kill, one to weaken and one to finish the job. I'm going to say broken once again

    Also, slightly off topic, Why is Jynx still allowed in NU, I thought it was banned? I've ran into it several times yesterday, ignore this part if you banned it today, havent gotten home yet.

    Ah, ok, thanks Luck
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2013
  19. Luck>Skill

    Luck>Skill Well-Known Member

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    It's banned but server has to restart for tier to changes so yeah
     
  20. PichiTheShinyPichu

    PichiTheShinyPichu I'm not amused

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    After reading this and testing Gothorita out, I can say this:

    Even if Gothorita doesn't sweep the entire team, it can get rid of at least one the things listed above that it traps, making it easier for offensive teams to finish the job. Gothorita also greatly benefits from hazards, so that it doesn't need to set up Calm Minds as much. I could say more, but most of what I wanted to say has been said. If you can find a Pokemon to trap with Gothorita, it's usually gone, as well as some more Pokemon, if not the rest of the opponents team.

    I deem it broken.
     
  21. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    I'm not going to outright say that Gothorita is super borked in the tier, but it's broken in a way that is unhealthy for the tier with the lack of pokemon that can effectively 2HKO it if it can get the chance to set up. The defenses that it gets from eviolite allows it to set up in a way any choice locked mon, stall mon, or average hitting pokemon will fall to it's set up or toxic stall. Houndoom can 2HKO it if it gets in before the set up with Dark Pulse and then it has access to Nasty Plot stopping it. As well Manectric can deal the damage with Thunderbolt, skuntank/drapion, and physical Samurott can go with a SD + Megahorn combo. However, the thing that makes gothorita work so well is that you can sack a pokemon against a deemable set up mon for gothorita to set up on, that it'll eventually win out because that's the nature of the game. Since you can either switch Goth in or wait for a pokemon to die against something you know you can set up against, and the opponent or yourself requires having certain pokemon to check/counter it's set up you can't effectively have perfect prediction everytime to face it. Gothorita effectively is Broken in an unhealthy environment for the tier in my opinion.

    I remember running the defensive CM set and not having a problem setting up on the amount of stall like mons, easily predictable fighting type sawk, as well as several other pokemon. Yet facing it (seeing as I mostly ran HO teams) I had no problems facing it because I knew at some point it was coming and kept playing safe in the pending switch-in that would happen. But to have to do that every time takes away from the styles I'd prefer to explore and facing it can easily be 6-0 for you or against you depending on who is using gothy. I mean the only way to really deal with it is perfect prediction and either tricking it on the defensive CM set or not running any stall mons that it can use as set up, which really can't be done for effective strategy throughout the tier.

    TL;DR It's an unhealthy part of NU that breaks down one style of play and can turn matches into one sided laughable matches. I think the tier would be better off without it, but there are still several other things that could deal with a suspect about, but this is about goth.
     
  22. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Heard some very good points so far. (It seems that the majority is pro-banning Gothorita, but the discussion isn't quite done, yet.)

    I'd just like to bring up the fact that the discussion will be wrapping up in about a week (hopefully before the tier changes get all messed up with this! But, whenever Cased gets back from Baseball.)

    If you have any final thoughts, not yet stated arguements, etc. Feel free to say it now, or forever hold your peace!
     
  23. Incon

    Incon I feel incapable of seeing the end.

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    After taking into consideration what everyone has posted, CasedVictory, Finchinator, and I have decided to Ban Gothorita from the NU tier. Its ability to trap and kill many threats was deemed broken and thus resulted in her ban.

    Thanks for all the discussion and contributions to the Suspect Thread. Keep a look out for more things to come.

    Finch was here
    (14:07:17) meeps: incon why call gothorita "her"
    (14:07:29) meeps: when it is only usable as male with shadow tag
    (14:08:46) *** Finchinator edits to make it a he.
    *** Incon changes to "Its" because Finch is noob.
    -Finch was here 2.0
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2013
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