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[BW2] July and August Wifi LU Tier / Potential Suspects Thread

Discussion in 'Gen 5 LU' started by Xdevo, Jul 1, 2013.

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  1. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    Wifi LU tier leaders: Tyki, The Real Elmo, and Xdevo.


    Wifi UU->Wifi LU
    Claydol
    Mismagius
    Tornadus

    Wifi LU->Wifi UU
    Golurk

    Wifi LU->Wifi NU
    Gastrodon
    Ludicolo

    Wifi NU->Wifi LU
    Manectric
    Scyther

    (I'll add some stuff about the drops and whatnot later)


    Discuss potential suspects and the current tier in general.
     
  2. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Well, Tornaus is back..back again..tell a friend (heh.)

    As we saw before, it'll be spamming Bulk Up + Acrobatics pretty frequently in the tier. With it's pretty amazing ability, in prankster, a set up move (in the aforementioned bulk up or even sub), sky-high attack stats, and great speed, I feel that the mono-flying gene is suspectable (and broken.) Also, it can run a specs / LO set (even rain dance with DR) and abuse strong hurricanes.
    Sure, Pokemon Scarfed Electrics, Strong Priority, and the very rare faster Pokemon can revenge it... But it still does a ton of damage and lacks many checks or counters (eh, Lanturn.) I really hope it gets looked into now that there aren't many other potential suspects (bar the mighty bug.)
     
  3. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Mismagius yay, a fast ghost type with the ability to set up is very welcome, and will be a v nice spin blocker for offensive teams i like to run

    Claydol yay, always nice to get another spinner to use, i've not used claydol much in UU but i can see it fitting in nicely here

    Tornadus booooooo, this thing is too strong and versatile for LU, why you people no use it in UU ;-;

    Very surprised Golurk's gone, i didn't realise it was getting so much usage in UU, shame to see it leave :[ but it is a great mon
     
  4. Sakuya Izayoi

    Sakuya Izayoi love to hate

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    Yay~
    Mismagius finally dropped, it will definitely be a fast and powerful spin-blocker to replace Golurk =) Its Nasty Plot set is powerful and can literally put a serious dent in the entire tier. Spiritomb outclasses it in a role of a spinblocker though, due to its better defenses.

    Claydol another poke that dropped, adding it to the list of spinners we have in LU. This might actually cause Sandslash to fall off to NU, seeing that it will be outclassed by Claydol in setting up SR and spinning, although it does sport better physical bulk (correct me if i'm wrong x_x)

    Tornadus, is back again i guess...'-' Pretty much its BU set, or even Specs plus a very annoying ability will cause it to hopefully be rise back to UU.

    Damn Golurk left, it was really surprising, seeing that I don't see people often using Golurk, but it is a very good poke nonetheless...
     
  5. Scene

    Scene reverie

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    LU looking good.

    Golurk leaving makes sense - I know UU players love that thing.

    Tornadus - Hello old friend. Lanturn and defensive Omastar will be pretty handy for Torn.

    Mismagius - Interesting. It'll be nice to have a fun ghost-type to play with - every other ghost in LU is pretty dull.

    Claydol - Expect it to be useful in place of Sandslash, but I certainly won't be touching it.

    Can't say any of the 3 look broken, and they're not run over by Durant either. Will test Mismagius and Torn soon.
     
  6. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    Tornadus is back? Guess I'm gonna have to look into my LU Rain team again, hehe. Rain is kinda cheap in LU with Ludicolo, Kabutops and Omastar. Even Feraligatr sweeps after a SD.

    Claydol is also pretty nice, being able to Spin and setup Rocks is something very few pokemon in LU are capable of. Aside from Kabutops, Sandslash and Pineco ofcourse.

    Mismagius is very strong and fast and will sweep many teams in LU with its trusty Sub Nasty Plot set.
     
  7. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    If Tornadus does cause rain teams to spike in usage again i would like to see a suspect on damp rock, as 5 turns is alot more manageable.
     
  8. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    Personally, if Rain were to become broken because of Tornadus dropping, I would rather test Tornadus before Damp Rock. Without Tornadus, Rain is clearly not broken. This isn't Elmo or Tyki's opinion, but I'm not a fan of nerfing things instead of just banning what makes it broken.
     
  9. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Urgh Tornadus is back. Can't we just put it in BL2? That thing does not belong in LU.

    Looking forward to Mismagius in LU. It'll be interesting to see how it does.
     
  10. AmourShipper

    AmourShipper meh i'm bored

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    YES!

    FINALLY MISMAGIUS DROPPED

    I've been waiting for this for so long, no words can describe how overjoyed I am at this.

    Claydol will be cool imo, nice defensive spinner for teams that don't want Cryogonal, has some cool resistances. I hope he finally sends Sandslash down to NU where it belongs.

    Fuck. Tornadus dropped. Can we please insta suspect this thing? I was glad to see it gone. (Basically what Dr. Doom said)

    Damn Golurk, you flew all the way to UU. Guess my analysis was done for nothing :(

    Manectric and Scyther finally getting the usage they deserve.

    I wanted Mesprit to rise to LU though :(

    EDIT: Hopefully Mismagius and Dusclops together should be able to fulfill the replacements for Cofagrigus.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2013
  11. Mylo Xyloto

    Mylo Xyloto if your world falls apart, i'd start a riot

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    Eeeek! I'm pretty psyched for Mismagius. I'm actually testing a Nasty Plot set with Will-o-Wisp atm. I really don't think Claydol would be too great since its weak to Ghost-types whom blocks his Rapid Spin. Eh Tornadus... welcome back
     
  12. Tyki

    Tyki Change

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    CLAYDOL IS BACK! CLAYDOL IS BACK!

    NOW I CAN USE A GROUND TYPE SPINNER THAT DOESN'T SUCK! YAY!

    Mismagius will be fun, good alternative to Rotom as an offensive Ghost. Nasty Plot and CM will be hard to deal with, but shouldn't be OP with all of the Dark types in the tier.

    Tornadus I'm not really looking forward to. I don't want it out immediately, but I don't think it makes the tier fun.

    Loss of Golurk makes me sad. Great Spinblocker and Ground type the tier lost.
     
  13. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Mismagius is going to be fun as well as Claydol. I may have to bust out a few old teams and modify them for tornadus though, never had a problem with the thing back when it got released, but I wouldn't be opposed to a suspect on it. My favorite way of dealing with tornadus back the first time around was munchy. Yes, I used munchy to tell tornadus to take a hike and it worked! Munchy the tornadus hunter was fun to use.

    Manectric...lol I wouldn't be surprised if NU players spiked this thing in LU to get it out of the tier. But, it's a great pokemon and can be used to great success. Scyther...why couldn't we have taken something NU players love like...Mesprit or Drifblim. Eh...I'm going to expect to see a lot more NU teams for players who usually use scyther in NU, as well a lot of easy victories in my coming days if people start using this thing.

    Surprised to see ludicolo drop, as it's a great pokemon, and I expect that it'll rise by the end of next round with tornadus on rain teams. Even then with uxie rain support or some other rain setter and sacrifice, ludicolo just can run over the tier really, surprised players let this guy drop. Oh well, rain in NU will be fun again if I go play that.
     
  14. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf Active Member

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    Ah hah, the return of Tornadus! Time to welcome back the Pokemon the ripped trough the first half of the PO World Cup for me. As much as I like the genie it needs to be banned. From my experience with it in its previous stint in the tier it is absurdly powerful, with both its physical and special sets and is extremely difficult to handle. As a matter of fact the entire basis of my main PoWC team was built around abusing Tornadus and its extremely limited counters. With Tornadus having solid bulk, enough to handle one or two hits from most of the priority in the tier, the only counters for the Sub+Bulk Up set are bulky rocks and fast/scarfed Electrics. As many of you no doubt saw, I used Unburden Drifblim to remove these Pokemon as checks, it's boosted Acrobatics tearing through teams and weakening switch ins, burning rock types with WoW and the clincher, Destiny Bond, which allowed Drifblim to remove both rocks and particularly Scarfed Electrics/Lanturn from the match.

    Essentially, Bulk Up Tornadus has only three good answers to it: Bulky Rocks/Steelix, Scarfed Electrics, and Lanturn. In my experience many teams commonly lacked any answer from those three groups, and of those teams that did carry one of the answers, only Lanturn was sure fire. From this its fairly evident that Tornadus has very few effective checks and counters.

    I really don't want to get into proving its power from an iPod right now so instead I'll provide an example of it from a Powc battle. In this game, mostwanted had brought full stall to bear against my hyper offense blimp+Tornadus team. I had successfully gotten rocks up and limited him to the same, weakening the rocks setter, Steelix in the process. However, my Drifblim had spent itself on Steelix, which turned out to be a Rest variant, my lure Entei was walled by Alomomola, and my lure Rotom-C had blown its cover in taking out a Roselia. At this point, down 5-3 with two revealed lures and a Tornadus against a stall team, Tornadus set up a sub, Bulked Up a few times and swept through the team, using the Alomomola and sleeping Steelix as fodder to set up (everything else dying to its brutal Acrobatics). This particular blurb shows that even against a well crafted stall team, when the team is not designed to hard counter BU Tornadus, it can still create wins out of nothing.

    This is not even discussing special or Rain Tornadus' which are different beats entirely and no less powerful. I may have more to say on special Nadus later after I use it again, as its been a while since I last unleashed its destructive Hurricanes.
     
  15. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Man, people are gonna be happy that Mismagius has dropped down to LU. I can see a solid niche in a purely offensive Ghost, as Rotom's got the Scarf thing down, and Dusclops would be the best defensive Ghost in the tier. Dusknoir is obviously physical, so it won't challenge Missy there.

    Bit of a shame about Claydol leaving UU, but I can see two things coming from this:

    1. Scyther's got a new buddy to play with, due to it rising from NU and Claydol resisting both Rock and Electric for it.
    2. It may just push Sandslash down to NU, which may FINALLY give the tier a half decent spinner. If that happens, I'm all for it. :3

    Ludicolo will probably steamroll NU, and with Tornadus being LU again, I wouldn't be surprised to see it jump back up again, pretty much instantly.
     
  16. Scene

    Scene reverie

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    Been doing some testing. Mismagius is awfully like Durant - fast and powerful with a great setup move, but in this case can't take physical hits. Sub-NP seems like the most common set, but once you're prepared for it Misssy is more than manageable.

    Tornadus is Tornadus - can and will sweep teams from either side that lack an answer to it, but rocks weakness, depressing frailness and the fact that its counters are so common keep it in place. It's good though - I really enjoy using it to blow through teams lategame.

    Haven't seen or used a Claydol - it'll fit nicely in NU at this rate. Not convinced it's better thsn Sandslash to be honest, anyway.

    Fun tier changes (:
     
  17. MewTheDestroyer

    MewTheDestroyer God

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    I may not be very good at LU, (I'm trash) but isn't Tornadus pretty broken? With Prankster it can abuse that Sub Bulk Up set, hell it even has Taunt if it wants. It also can wall break with Superpower + Hurricane, or run fully Special. And it also can create momentum with U-Turn. This thing really only has one sure counter, that being Lanturn.
     
  18. New Breed

    New Breed ka$h

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    Yeah I knew a Texas post about Tornadus was coming and I was considering posting in the previous thread about a suspect test for it when it comes back. As Texas mentioned Tornadus has a very limited pool of checks and counters, the ability to run both physical and special sets which are both amazing with base 115 Attack and 125 Special Attack. Sure it's weak to Stealth Rock and isn't overly bulky (79/70/80 is decent for an offensive Pokemon) but Lanturn is pretty much the only Pokemon in the tier that can switch in on both sets and just not die(which is notoriously easy to wear down), couple that with Tornadus hitting 353 Speed tips it over the edge imo. Prankster Substitute allows it to scout even Choice Scarf Pokemon if you're the Physical Set and the Special Set can just set up a Rain Dance/Tailwind as it dies.

    The main problem with Tornadus is that you really have no idea what set it's running (I would sort of compare it to Kingdra in UU when it was suspected), if it's the Physical set well great, Steelix and Defensive Omastar can come in no problem but if it's Special then it just becomes a 50/50 until you actually know. Tornadus also has the ability to go mixed, easily being able to run something like Superower to get past Clefable or Grass Knot/Heat Wave if you want to beat Omastar/Steelix.

    tl;dr - Tornadus is too good for the LU tier, amazing Speed, amazing Physical, Special and Mixed sets, amazing ability, very limited pool of checks and counters. Also can people stop using "well it's SR weak".. LU is pretty much the easiest tier to spin in with Kabutops beating all Ghosts and Hitmonchan foresighting.
     
  19. Virizion

    Virizion ~ Taste the Rainbow ~

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    Looks like Gastrodon may be moving up back soon: People realised its effectiveness in its ability Storm Drain and it's LU usage has increased, and it's NU usage is great too. I'd be nice to see if it can get back all the way up to OU again!

    LU Usage:
    # 37 - Gastrodon (5.42 %)

    NU Usage:
    # 33 - Gastrodon (5.34 %)

    Scyther looks nice and welcoming to this tier, despite the horrible defensive typing its offensive typing, great attack / speed stats and ability to support the movepool certainly makes up for this.

    Claydol, meh it looks reasonably good. I just don't want Sandslash to move down into the miserable NU though, like our former friend (Gastrodon) has / did. D:

    Sad about Golurk leaving LU, however Mismagius (sort of) overcomes that problem by becoming an effective Spinblocker for ones team.

    Tornadus, déjà vu. 'Nuff said.

    I might add some usage statistics later on, if they matter of if I feel like it. :P
     
  20. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Tornadus needs to go IMO. Flying moves get deceptively good coverage: only 3 types resist them, and nothing is outright immune. And for the stuff that does resist, it gets Focus Blast, Heat Wave, Grass Knot and Superpower - Superpower has a good chance to 2HKO 252/0 Lanturn after Stealth Rock. Focus Blast and Heat Wave make quick work of Ferroseed, Steelix and Magneton. Scarfed Electric types might appear to be a good answer, but Manectric is cleanly 2HKOd by Hurricane or item-less Acrobatics and Rotom-C is OHKOd by Hurricane and item less Acrobatics after Rocks.
     
  21. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I'm going around the server tracking down everyone I know to place bets on how fast it'll be banned, actually. Everyone knows it'll happen.

    Anyway, time to comment on some things I've seen while lurking since I've no time to seriously build a team. Something on Mismagius: you honestly shouldn't bother with Substitute on Nasty Plot sets, as it really can't keep the sub at all and it normally ends in getting either pursuited or killed after failing to kill the bulky pokemon it just attacked. You're much better off going with HP Fighting and Will-O-Wisp, especially with the main things switching into you being pursuiters and strong/bulky physical attackers. Haven't really seen much of SubCM, which might be pretty good especially after Tornadus goes away.

    And I've seen no Claydol. At all.
     
  22. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    I've tried using Claydol a few times - it's good, but nothing special. Its niche over the other Spinners is resisting the hazards it spins away. I can see 2 possible outcomes for Claydol - it either drops to NU, or forces Sandslash and/or Cryogonal down. Either way, NU'll get a good spinner.
     
  23. AmourShipper

    AmourShipper meh i'm bored

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    I haven't used Claydol yet, but I can say that I've only seen one Claydol while laddering in LU so far, and what it did accomplish aside from spinning is wearing down my Emboar a little bit. That said, I can see it doing somewhat well as a supportive spinner, as the other cool thing it has going for it is the nice support movepool. If any spinner drops to NU next tier shift, it should be Sandslash imo, because Sandslash has always been a shitty Pokemon in LU.
     
  24. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Something interesting:

    Druddigon 4.49011 2842

    Druddigon could be moving up to UU.
     
  25. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Wow. Druddigon in UU would make things interesting in LU. They'll have to rely on Altaria as their only FE Dragon, just like NU. I don't see that pushing Altaria out of NU, but it'd certainly be interesting...
     
  26. AmourShipper

    AmourShipper meh i'm bored

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    No no no no no no no no no no. Please don't move up Druddigon, out of all things please do not leave us! Stay here in LU, I will have to edit my teams if you leave!

    On a serious note, Druddigon leaving the tier would definitely have an impact on the metagame. Druddigon is a defining force of the metagame, acting as a full stop to common FWG cores that roam the tier, while having a nuclear Outrage that can be ridiculously hard to switch into; even Bisharp and Durant are not always enough. It also is one of the best Stealth Rock setters in the tier, and these qualities make Druddigon a great fit on many teams. It also is noteworthy that since Dragons are scarce, Druddigon can often find itself a space as the premier Dragon on teams. Druddigon leaving would mean FWG cores would thrive much more than they already do now, because there is no longer a bulky, rough-scaled (reference to its ability) dragon to handle them. VoltTurn can also see more use, as U-turn won't have the drawback of them being hurt while Volt Switch isn't resisted too handily. There will also be one less SR user to see, and as well something less for Escavalier and Steelix to check (they still check Mesprit/Uxie so they will still be useful). Also, this means I will miss my Magneton+Druddigon+Scolipede combo, because that combo honestly rules.
     
  27. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Alright xdevo wanted more discussion happening among LU players and potential suspects that could be looked at in the tier. One of two I've spoken with other players about is druddigon. This post right here imo would help push the idea of a possible druddigon suspect discussion. It's a great pokemon being a dragon and resisting all the common pokemon that you will see in the tier (being fire, water, and grass types) as they are the most definable pokemon in this metagame. It's got a nuclear base 120 attack and with it the investment into HP/defenses it becomes a bulky frickin' tank that hits hard without needing investment. It also has it's utility as a stealth rocker and just being a nuclear powerhouse when attack does get invested. Since this is to note potential suspects it might be worth looking at druddigon as a potential suspect. It's slow rise to the top of LU has been hindered by having queen in the tier (since the defensive bulky drudds hated ice beam queen), as well as dealing with tornadus as offensive threats. But with those gone, druddigon really does get to shine and is worth a look at.

    Although same argument does keep coming up about the RNG on this one. Another possible suspect that we could look at is Moltres. Now here me out on this one. It's main force of attacking is Fire Blast and Hurricane on it's borked sets and it does require the RNG to succeed, but are we really going to use the it will has the high chance of missing when RNG works any frickin way it wants to? Specs Moltres hits like a nuke with hurricane and fire blast (honestly just hurricane in general), and the accuracy problem can be remedied with running rain teams or at least a rain set up for several turns that can set up what it needs and dies off to let moltres do work. Sure there are a fair amount of revengers/mons that do outspeed it, but the thing hits like a nuke on the whole tier and mostly 1 if not 2 hits 95% of the tier. All it needs to do is hit one move every so often to basically give you the numbers advantage. I'm not gonna say it's broken, but when it doesn't miss it can and will kill almost a whole team. But it is worth a potential suspect imo. As well it does have a few other set variations that help it's survivability in the LU tier, but it could be worth suspecting.

    I've my own opinions maybe durant again, but I'm not a 100% on it with my lack of using it recently to get a good feel on if it might be worth discussion (again barring the it has to hit argument)
     
  28. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Checked the usage statistics today:

    Ambipom 3.967 5627
    Qwilfish 3.84151 5449

    LU could be regaining Qwilfish, and finally Ambipom could be dropping out.
     
  29. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    im seconding a potential suspect for moltres and i want lilligant to have a suspect as well, the ease at which it can set up and sweep is ridiculous, the sp def boosts mean it cant be revenge killed, and it can sleep its checks and counters and easily set up to +2 meaning it outspeeds the whole tier and giga drain recovery also ensures it will stay healthy and be hard to revenge kill with priority
     
  30. Wepwn

    Wepwn Wonderbread

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    Moltres definitely deserves a suspect test it can plow through teams so easily in this meta. Lilligant does not deserve a suspect test imo. Its checked by many common mons in the tier and has a 4 moveslot syndrome. It all depends on what Hidden power you are running. If HP Fire, any fire type can revenge kill with ease. HP Rock is a lot more difficult to deal with because of it removing flying/fire types with ease but Bouffalant and Escavalier counter it pretty easily and these are being seen on a lot of teams lately.
     
  31. Omfuga216

    Omfuga216 Banned

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    I agree with suspecting lilligant... broken mon imo

    also want to ban moltres because it only has 2 counters (munchlax and lanturn), one of which is NU


    Edit: Obviously I'm not going to post my argument about why I want to suspect lilligant and moltres here. The whole point of the potential suspect thread is to see if we can come to an agreement on which pokemon should be suspected. If a lot of people for example, think moltres should be suspected, then it most likely will be. When the suspect thread for moltres actually comes up, then I'll post my argument there. There's no point in making a point of why a pokemon should be suspected here, then simply rewriting the same thing if it actually does get suspected.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2013
  32. Sinclair

    Sinclair Call me the Pokemon Demigod

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    I back a suspect on Lilligant, and I would also suggest considering a suspect on Venomoth. Both of these quiver dancers are broken sweepers in LU imo.
     
  33. Wepwn

    Wepwn Wonderbread

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    nice reasoning bro

    Celestial Phantom sleeping on ma nigga Swagmortar. Also Motor Drive is much better than Vital spirit on E-vire
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2013
  34. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    thats only 2 pokemon, and escavalier isn't always reliable since lilli can run hp fire, and escav is 2hko'd by hp rock after rocks, so if you mispredict (eg going for sleep talk whilst they quiver again or somethin) or if youre already weakened (which is likely as it's forced to switch quite a lot and has no recovery) then you lose. And if you're not running either of those pokes then what? you have to try and revenge kill with v strong priority attackers such as entei or pray for sleep talk misses. At the end of the day it is far too easy for it to set up on most of LU, and after it gets 2 or sometimes even 1 boost under it's belt (which is incredibly easy with Sleep Powder) it can muscle its way through any kind of team. the ease to which it sets up, and the fact it can sleep any problematic mons make it broken to me.

    Counters: Bouff, Sap sipper miltank + sp def ferro (assuming hp rock, as its the better hp) roselia

    Checks: Druddigon, Sleep Talk Entei, Sleep Talk Escav, some other sleep talk users, things that still outspeed it at +1 like scarf durant n scarf scyther, general strong priority after it's been weakemed

    The counters are mostly reliable, although miltank has 2 other great abilities competing for use, and ferroseed is rare and loses if lilli carries HP Fire it loses, the checks are mostly situational, and bringing in the scarfers is always a risky game (eg bringing in scarf scyther after they put another mon to sleep predicting the quiver dance, only way to prevent it gettin to +2 but run the risk of switching into a hp rock)
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2013
  35. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Let's see Lilligant's focus is that it's limited in it's movepool, will always run Quiver Dance, Sleep Powder, Giga Drain/Petal Dance, and HP Fire/Rock. The HP varies based on the team and need of things killed really. Since if you go Rock, you have a shot to kill most Fire and Flying types as well as Ice mons, where as if you go Fire you can kill Steel types as well as other grasses that resist Giga/Petal. I mean it's a case of more often than not with lilligant where you run one or the other and get walled by the one where you lack coverage and need partners to help it.

    Checks/Counters for Lilligant: Miltank, Bouffalant, Druddigon, and Electivire are the mons that can come to mind to check and or counter lilligant without having to be biased on the type of Hidden Power it's running. Miltank/Bouffalant/Druddigon are bulky enough to live a +1 Hidden Power, and either hit back or in druddigon's sleep talk phazer case, either phaze/deal damage with dragon tail. As well E-vire comes in on Sleep Powder and can KO if LO or banded E-vire with Ice/Fire Punch. Though it doesn't live a +1 Giga Drain after rocks, but that comes down to if the Lilligant Quivers or Powders on the switch. Fake Out Lee as well can revenge it pretty easily.

    Others: Majority of steel types that don't have a grass neutrality if HP Rock, sadly steelix is still gonna die/take massive damage. Majority of fire types if HP Fire.

    Though it's a simple mon to play, it does kill a lot of things depending on it's HP. Though most run Rock for the wider range of coverage, or setting up sleep/missing sleep when it comes to a sleep talk regular mon that have become common occurrences, I find Lilligant one of the better mons in LU, but not really broken if you take the proper precautions.
     
  36. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    The one thing keeping Lilligant from being too powerful is simply its move pool. Leaf Storm+HP Rock is nice, but it still leaves you to die by Excadrill and Durant, barring predicting correctly with Sleep Powder. Things like Entei can still live a +1 HP Rock and kill back regardless, so it's not like it can kill everything that normally threatens it within 2 moves anyway. HP Fire shouldn't even really be brought up, as you can play around Grass/Fire coverage much more easily than Grass/Rock, and it's not like you're out running Durant anyway. It can literally do one thing, and unless the opponent misplays you really only have one chance to sweep with it. It's also ridiculously frail, with all common priority doing pretty large amounts of damage to it.

    I wouldn't have a problem with a Moltres suspect mainly because it's always been borderline. Only thing you can really fault it on is accuracy and rocks, plus the latter is really one of the main things that's kept it manageable.
     
  37. New Breed

    New Breed ka$h

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    Lol it kinda just seems like most of you want to suspect something just for the sake of it. Lilligant is 100% not broken lmao, as Celestial said Lilligant is super reliant on the Hidden Power coverage and no matter which Hidden Power it chooses it will still have those checks and counters. Sure Lilligant can sweep with proper team support and is definitely a major threat in the tier but that basically sums up every offensive Pokemon in the tier.

    Moltres on the other hand is a little more iffy, as Pnerd said Moltres has always been on the borderline of broken/fine but tbh using Moltres really has significant drawbacks the two biggest things being 4x weak to the best move in the game Stealth Rock and having really unreliable STABS, hitting two Hurricanes in a row is pretty much a coinflip lol. If you apply enough offensive pressure with SR then Moltres ends up being really limited, sure its extremely hard to switch into but it certainly isn't as easy as bringing Moltres in and 2HKO'ing everything in the tier.
     
  38. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    PO Trainer Name:
    Afro Smash
    Lilligant isn't reliant on HP coverage to beat things, Grass/Rock coverage is perfectly fine to beat the vast majority of LU, you'd only run HP Fire if it was specifically tailored to a team. It can sleep or 2HKO majority of it's checks, Druddigon, barring the rest talk set is very hard to keep healthy throughout a whole match, leaving you with sap sipper pokemon, roselia + ferroseed. I just find it to be too easy to set up with and not easy enough to revenge kill, for example if you come in on a pokemon choice locked into a NVE move then you can quiver on the turn they switch, put the thing they switch into asleep, quiver 1 more time and then it's usually an easy sweep, and recovering health from giga drain means it can't be easily revenge killed because it's usually at a high amount of health, and Entei's E Speed does like 65% max, before dying to a +1 HP Rock. It doesn't really require much of any team support to sweep at all, except I guess something to take out the hard counters (of which none are common in LU, around 12% usage all together). Special Attacking Revenge killers such as Scarf Galv also fail to kill Lilli at +1 Sp def, so it's revenge killers are limited to fast physical bug types.

    Also:
    huehueheuh
     
  39. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Fuck japanese names, all I have to say, lol.

    Lilligant is extremely reliant on HP coverage because Grass as a main STAB sucks so much. It's not fast like Sceptile so it can't just get away with a SubSeed set and it doesn't have Focus Blast like, say, Tangrowth has so it has to rely on HP Rock to hit Moltres and Entei. That's not even going into how HP Fire makes you Druddigon bait(at the very least) and the fact that you can easily be Tricked by a Rotom-C or other things no matter which route you go. If it was, say, Water type, there would be more of a case for it, but it's so one dimensional and that one dimension is limited. I don't run any of the pokemon you've listed normally and I can handle it just fine.

    Plus HP is a 70 power move. That's actually quite lacking without STAB backing it up, even if you are hitting x2 weaknesses.

    I would get into the whole "stop bringing up hard counters since we'd be banning about 20 different pokemon since they have little to no hard counters" speech but I've done that about 100000 times on this and NU's subforum already.
     
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