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[BW2] July / August Wifi NU Tier / Potential Suspect Discussion

Discussion in 'Gen 5 NU' started by Finchinator, Jul 1, 2013.

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  1. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Hi everyone, after two thrilling months full of adjusting to radical changes in the NU tier like Houndoom and Manetric, we have a whopping 2 additions to the NU tier. Also, we're saying good-bye to two beloved NUers, in Manetric and Scyther.

    Wifi NU Tier Leaders: CasedVictory, Incon, and Finchinator (just click my name to goto my profile!)

    Wifi LU->Wifi NU
    Gastrodon
    Ludicolo

    Wifi NU->Wifi LU
    Manectric
    Scyther

    Wifi NU->Wifi NEU
    Altaria
    Archeops
    Cacturne
    Electivire
    Electrode
    Glaceon
    Huntail
    Regice
    Serperior
    Simipour
    Zebstrika

    Wifi NEU->Wifi NU
    Torterra

    These changes aren't yet implimented on the server, but they shall be soon.
    Anyway, use this thread to discuss the impact on the metagame of these tier shifts and possible suspect(s). HINT: THIS IS WHERE YOU CAN BITCH ABOUT LIEPARD!

    Personally, I think that the overwhelming amount of water types (along with the apparently controversial Liepard) should be the main topics of discussion. Will Rain Dance Teams become a threatening playstyle in NU? Should we look ito Damp Rock suspecting, or the suspecting of specific threats, if Rain needs softening? How will the tier miss Gothorita, Scyther, and most importantly: Manetric!?

    Discuss!
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2013
  2. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Delta Stream

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    brb bitching bout Liepard

    Manectric only stayed a while, but it's nice to see it leave, it was really goddamn powerful.
    Ludicolo isn't really that good without rain so I think it can fit it quite well in NU
    Gastrodon had a good niche in sponging up the common Water attack while only having one weakness, why is it dropping so fast and so hard? Grass isn't too common of a typing in NU so I'm curious to see how it'll fare here :/.

    These are my thoughts as NU newb, so yeah
     
  3. big ed

    big ed bulk is tacky

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    hyped for gastro, love him.
    will miss scyther though ;\
     
  4. Virizion

    Virizion ~ Taste the Rainbow ~

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    Gastrodon was OU not long ago, now it's dropped miserably into NU.
    I honestly think that Archeops and Electivire will move up soon enough though, even with Archeops ability it's going to wreck the tier.
     
  5. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Oh god, i really didn't want Ludicolo to drop, literally nothing can switch into that thing when rain is up, and there's gonna be so many rain teams around now ;-; but we'll see what happens. I think damp rock should probably be the thing to go.

    I don't know why people haven't been using Gastro, but i'm sure it'll do great in NU as it did in LU, and will probably knock seismitoads usage down, as its better in almost every way, apart from not having SR.

    Liepard is a bitch, basically all its sets are uncompetitive, swagger foul play is extremely annoying but you still have a chance to hit through, assist roar however is ridiculously broken as there isn't a way to stop it, prankster assist would only go after extremespeed on the rare linoone, or taunt from a max speed Whimsicott, both of which are uncommon. I fucking pray we take this 2nd opportunity to remove this cancer from the metagame.

    I'm glad manectric is leaving, it'll make other electric types viable again, though i cant deny it was very fun to have around, and scyther wasnt very common in nu thanks to the lack of good spinners, so i don't think it leaving'll impact the tier at all.

    Edit: Also i want to bring up the possibility on Klinklag being broken. After just one Shift Gear, it easily outspeeds the whole tier and is able to ohko most offensive pokemon and 2hko most bulky pokemon. It's steel typing and great defenses means it can find numerous opportunities to set up, especially when running substitute, and cannot be easily revenge killed. Torkoal, Tangela + bulky electric types are decent counters, and Gurdurr is a solid check, but the plethora of pokemon that Klinklang can easily beat 1 on 1 make me think it's at least worth a suspect.

    Thoughts?

    Edit 2: ARCHEOPS IS NEU, WUT
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2013
  6. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    Gothorita banned? I'll use Eviolite Gothita instead ;-; Jk.

    I think Ludicolo isn't going to stay NU for long. It's stab coverage plus it's absurd speed and power in rain can sweep whole teams with rocks up. I mean Ludicolo, Seismitoad, Specs Gastro and a Damp Rock Mesprit and you got yourself a cheap rain team that will wreck everything.

    Manectric leaving just means people will go back to Zebstrika which is essentially Manectric with more speed and a bit less power.

    Gastrodon is a great pokemon especially with Choice Specs which is probably what people will be using, as Seismitoad is better for team support. I don't see Seismitoads usage dropping much though because it sets up Stealth Rock so easily and it just fits well on any team.

    Scyther leaving NU kinda sucks. Rapid Spin in NU was already hard to come by so I don't think Scyther was broken.
     
  7. Fosco

    Fosco .dancin

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    I made Torterra NU! Seriously it's a great mon I have no idea why it was NEU. Ludicolo will be very annoying to deal with.

    Klinklang is ok imo, every good NU team should be prepared for it and it's not difficult to prepare for it at all because lots of
    things keep it in check - in addition to the ones Afro listed, bulky ground types like Seismitoad and Torterra do well against the
    gear man.
     
  8. Sakuya Izayoi

    Sakuya Izayoi love to hate

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    Ludicolo dropping will definitely cause Rain teams to be used more often in the tier, its dual STABs alone + Ice Beam can rip out the entire tier alone.

    Wow Gastro further dropped to NU, well your loss is my gain. Gastrodon will definitely be a strong force in the tier, a +1 Gastrodon, which can further boosted by Choice Specs, will make it one of the best wallbreakers in the tier. It's sad its dismal speed holds it back. I really don't see how seismitoad will be affected by Gastrodon at all, its main set is to set up SR, but abusing rain is better left off to Ludicolo.

    Klinklang seems okay tbh, it does have its own fair checks and counters, such as Big lovedisc walling it, and causing Klinklang to KO itself from Wild Charge recoil while it proceeds to stall it out. Tangela also walls it completely, being able to cripple it with Sleep Powder/Stun Spore and fire off a HP fire at it. Bulky electric-types such as Eelektross also do well beating it. Mach Punch from Gurdurr also put an end to Klinklang. Overall, I feel that Klinklang is not over-centralising the tier, however it can be just my own view.

    Altaria is one of the best special walls in the tier, and can also go the offensive route with either DD, special LO, or even Specs. The lack of steel-types is to Altaria's advantage, throwing Draco Meteors and Outrage throughout the tier.

    Archeops is one of the largest threats in NU, not to mention NEU. This bird should be banned soon or it will utterly destroy the entire tier alone.

    Glad to have Cacturene back, it's really one of the best spikers in NEU, and its powerful Sucker Punch is a force to be reckoned with.

    Another powerhouse, Electrivire is finally back in NEU.

    Electrode is an interesting pokemon to play with, its speed is unrivaled in NEU, but it will most likely be outclassed by Electrivire, who has access to a better movepool, and Zebstrika, who has Flamethrower to play with.

    Glaceon is another powerhouse, freezing the entire tier, but it now has to contend with Regice and Articuno. Nonetheless it is the most powerful ice-type user in the tier.

    Huntail obviously dropped due to Gorebyss having better stats across the board. Still, smashpassing can be annoying, but Carracosta does it better, and baton passing is banned. :<

    Regice, a new drop from NU, will probably make the tier even more stally due to its special defense prowess.

    Serperior, also another interesting drop, will probably wreck the tier with its fast speed and access to CM. It doesn't seem to be leaving NEU anytime soon due to Regice, its best counter to serp, is also with it in NEU.

    Simipour looks like its back again to stay, yet another powerhouse we have.

    Zebstrika most likely dropped due to Manetric outclassing it, but now that it is back to LU, Zebstrika probably can bring itself back up to NU.

    From the new NEU pokemon, the massive amount of powerhouses such as Electrivire, Archeops and Simipour will probably cause the tier to be shifted back to a faster and more offensive-orientated metagame, although Regice and Altaria seems to say otherwise.
     
  9. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    The reason i think Gastrodon will knock Seismitoads usage down is because it has better stats as a special wall, and has access to recover so can remain effective throughout an entire match, the only thing seismitoad has over it is stealth rocks, which can be found on a plethora of other pokemon in NU.
     
  10. Sakuya Izayoi

    Sakuya Izayoi love to hate

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    You do have a point, but Gastrodon would probably take over Seismitoad as a offensive powerhouse and water-absorber.
     
  11. Dzi

    Dzi So Nyuh Shi Dae

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    Gastrodon was doing really great in LU, but I kinda expected that it will eventually go to NU. I expect Gastrodon to have a huge impact towards the other water types in the tier. Physical Samurott will struggle to use its STAB moves with Gastrodon around, Special Samurott has Grass Knot to hit it, so I guess I'll see and increase of usage in Samurott's Special Set. Seismitoad vs Gastrodon will be very interesting, Gastrodon is better in terms of using a bulky Choice Specs set while Seismitoad can set up Stealth Rock and has access to Swift Swim, and it is something that Gastrodon would want.

    Ludicolo's presence in the tier will no doubt increase the usage of Rain Teams. Just slap Volbeat, Ludicolo + 4 more sweepers and you now have a cheap rain team. Rain teams get a new sweeper/weather inducer in Ludicolo. In my opinion, Damp Rock needs to go. Ludicolo/Audino will have problems taking repeated Hydro Pumps from Ludicolo. Thank god Roselia didn't went to LU, it can at least take 1 Ice Beam at full HP and hit back with Sludge Bomb. But having Roselia doesn't mean a team is Ludicolo safe.

    Manectric leaving makes me happy because it definitely deserves a tier more than NU, its a great revenge killer with a fantastic movepool. I guess we need to use our old pals like Zebstrika, Electabuzz, Raichu and Rotom-S if we want a revenge killer.

    Scyther's typing sucks, weakness to Stealth Rock and BoltBeam sucks. But it is without a doubt a great attacker, it can tear teams apart easily especially with the help of Volt Switch users to form VolTurn. I guess Scyther going to LU is a great thing because LU has a lot of good spinners (Hitmonchan, Hitmonlee, Kabutops, Sandslash, Cryogononal) that can help Scyther sweep through a lot of teams.

    Altaria is a good special wall but is also a good DD Sweeper, its probably outclassed by Regice so it doesn't get enough usage but trust me, its a great attacker.

    Archeops's typing + ability sucks, other than that, this thing is a MONSTER. But with Archeops being very prone from priority moves like Ice Shard and Aqua Jet from Piloswine and Samurott respectively, Archeops really struggles to stand out.

    Cacturne is a good spikes user but it generally outclassed by other bulky mons like Roselia and Garbodor. I like Cacturne's Sub+SD and Sub+NP sets, they both work really well.

    With Manetric leaving, Electivire is going back to NU soon. Electivire is the only electric type pokemon aside from Eelektross that can run a Mixed set. And its faster and better than Eel.

    Electrode too, will go back to NU soon. SpecsTrode is no joke.

    Glaceon's Choice Specs boosted Ice Beam is a monster but its typing and speed makes him prone of being revenge killed.

    Huntail ..lol

    Regice is a good poke with good SDef and SAtk stats, but its typing sucks,

    Serperior is a good poke but it doesn't get the usage it deserves. :( And Roselia and Vileplume keeps getting on its way.

    Unforunately, with Samurott and the newly added water types in Ludicolo and Gastrodon, Simipour will have a hard time being noticed.

    Zebstrika. Guess what bitches, this thing is going back to NU soon. :3

    Torterra is back, HELL YEA. I laddered in NU a few times using Torterra's Rock Polish+Swords Dance set and it can rape teams easily. Great pokemon.

    Thoughts about Klinklang: its ok imo, every team should be prepared for it and its similar as to how every team should prepare for other attackers like Sawk, Samurott, etc.

    Edit: Just realized LU got another spinner in Claydol, so its another good new for Scyther users! :D
     
  12. Omfuga216

    Omfuga216 Banned

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    Why does no one realize electrode as potentially the best volt-switching electric-type in the tier? It's faster than every pokemon (bar swellow) in the entire tier with a modest nature, and with a modest nature it can outspeed and have more power than zebstrika. The only difference is that it doesn't have overheat, which isn't even that useful in the first place.
     
  13. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    Good point, but you're forced to use Choice Specs or you're just flatout outclassed by all Electric-types in the tier. People prefer to just use a Choice Scarf so they can revenge kill Gorebyss and other scarfers like Sawk. Overheat lets Zebstrika get past Grass-types, which is actually extremely useful in NU.
     
  14. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    Manectric kinda did push most other electric types aside, so it's nice to see it rising since that will let others such as zebstrika and electabuzz to see some action.
    Gastro isn't that broken if you consider the fact that there are a lot of grass types in NU; eggy, vileplume, simisage, tangela, serperior, roselia, sawsbuck, torterra, cacturne, etc as well as HP grass being a staple on things such as samurott and co.
    I'll put up a list of counters I find later, also sad to see scyther leave :c, may he see lots of usage in the higher tiers.

    Ludiciolo... mother of god.... What switch into this besides specially defensive ludicolo?
     
  15. Parpar

    Parpar Member

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    Prepare yourselves, rain spammers are coming.
     
  16. SongSing

    SongSing KILLL

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    Ludicolo will be a monster :| Takes out Alomomola and Tangela, some of the best walls in the tier. I'm really not looking forward to all of the rain teams >.>
     
  17. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Damn, some interesting changes.

    Nice to see Manectric and Scyther seeing the usage they deserve. As basically everyone's saying, Zebby and other forgotten Electric-types will be back in full swing in NU.

    Ludicolo is gonna be an absolute bitch to face in NU, seeing as it outruns basically everything in the rain, and neither of its weaknesses are really exploitable. Aside from something daft like Choice Scarf Swellow, I don't see any viable revenge killers, and special walls are gonna get hammered by a rain boosted Hydro Pump. Playing around it might be possible though... I guess?

    Storm Drain Cradily could tank an Ice Beam and then fire back a Sludge Bomb for the KO... maybe?

    Some weird offensive tanking set like:

    Cradily @ Leftovers
    Ability: Storm Drain
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
    Modest nature

    -Recover
    -Giga Drain
    -Sludge Bomb
    -Earth Power

    Gimmicky as all hell, but if it starts working I'm calling dibs on it. xD
     
  18. VuvuzelaΒzz

    VuvuzelaΒzz •Sage

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    The best counter you're likely to find for Rain Dance Ludicolo is Ludicolo itself. The set for defensive Ludi is:

    Ludicolo @ Lefotvers
    Ability: Rain Dish
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Spd
    Calm nature

    -Scald
    -Giga Drain / Ice Beam
    -Leech Seed / Toxic
    -Synthesis

    If you use that set with Giga Drain, LO Ludi's Giga Drain is doing 29.94 - 35.43%(recovering a maximum of 21.43% of it's HP), defensive Ludi is dealing 25.08 - 29.43%, Leftovers+Rain Dish are recovering 12.5% of your HP and your own Giga Drain is recovering a minimum of 10.3% of your own HP, meaning that ultimately at worst you're taking 12.67% of your HP as damage and offensive Ludi is taking 13.65% of it's own.(With average rolls, defensive Ludi is taking 8.51%, while offensive Ludi is taking 17.7%.)
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2013
  19. Black Ghost

    Black Ghost Member

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    252SpAtk Life Orb +1 Ludicolo (+SAtk) Surf vs 252HP/252SpDef Regice (+SpDef): 30% - 36% (111 - 132 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO. (+1 = rain)
    When taking leftovers and sleep talk varients in to the equation it seems regice walls it.

    Im gonna love gastrodon and sap sipper cores (girafarig) and armaldo might just go up to LU

    Btw as much as I love manecric there are other electric types (raichu and electrode)
     
  20. JirachiCelebiMew

    JirachiCelebiMew New Member

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    One thing that you people don't seem to understand is Ludicolo. To fully abuse it, you don't need to run a dedicated Rain team, just slap Rain Dance, LO + 3 Attacks Ludicolo and you're good to go. It has been NU for almost ever on Smogon and it nowhere near broken, and while PO lacks Jynx, you just got Gastrodon, which can work well to check Ludicolo, as you can switch to your Grass-resist such as Roselia to tank that Giga Drain. This puts a lot of pressure on the Ludicolo user, as he will be forced to predict, and eventually overpredict. Another thing that completely shuts down Rain teams are Toxic Spikes. It puts a timer on Life Orb sweepers that are common on Rain teams, and with smart switching you can wear them down easily until they die.
     
  21. big ed

    big ed bulk is tacky

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    I haven't seen as many ludicolo as I expected too, but the ones that I did see really got walled by munchlax, that little guy needs more love tbh he's pretty great right now haha. also like black ghost said, regice can wall them pretty well too.
     
  22. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    That still means Ludicolo everywhere lol. We might as well start a mariachi band. xD
     
  23. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    About Klinklang, it can never be broken with all of its mentioned checks and counters if Quagsire is in the tier. People just forgot about it due to Seismitoad having rocks and Gastrodon being a boss. It also doesn't get all that many chances to set up regardless, as most sweeps tend to happen late game when everything's weakened or when they try and send Alomomola in on first sight and then it gets out of hand because of it.

    Also I'd just like to say that if people want to suspect Liepard again we should probably just ban Prankster. Liepard isn't broken.
     
  24. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Banning Prankster would absolutely ruin Volbeat's sole niche though, and also cripple Whimsicott. Something that nerfs Liepard without ruining something else would be more ideal imo, such as a ban on moves that solely induce confusion. Let's face it; Liepard's basically the only thing that even uses it, and without Swagger it's a lot more manageable.
     
  25. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Volbeat and Whimsicott are not really important since they see little to no usage and have barely any competitive relevance.

    Also, Liepard's been more problematic with it's Assist + Roar set, in conjunction with hazards, because a plethora of users elected to spam it on the Wifi NU Ladder and peak near the top. Although Swagger + Prankster is an annoyance, it's not nearly as controversial as AssistRoar Liepard.
     
  26. MewTheDestroyer

    MewTheDestroyer God

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    Liepard really needs to go. I may not play PO NU, but I play enough Smogon NU to know even there, it is capable of literally tearing an entire team apart. It's an annoying set, and takes NO SKILL to abuse, due to it's reliance on hax. Now granted, hax won't always happen, and many strong hitters can potentially OHKO Liepard easily, but many of those heavy hitters can be crippled with a Thunder Wave, potentially letting something else set up later on.
     
  27. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Surely banning liepard would be better than banning prankster, since the way that whimsicott + volbeat use prankster isn't broken in any way, but almost all the ways that liepard abuses prankster are broken.
     
  28. Machineae

    Machineae ex NU leader

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    Jesus christ what has become of this tier when I was gone

    Finch Edit: EVERYTHING!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 6, 2013
  29. big ed

    big ed bulk is tacky

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    yeah i think a liepard test would be better than prankster, but then MASSIVE PURLION INVASION
     
  30. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    This could be a little biased, but I think Alom deserves a test after liepard (if it's getting one).

    Alom has insane bulk thanks to its massive hp, huge wish passes which almost fully heal whatever it passes into, a great ability in Regenerator, and a decent typing with only 2 weaknesses.

    A choice banded emboar using a super effective wild charge does 60%, that is just stupid imo. It also gets mirror coat for more shenanigans and since it has great hp, it won't die to any 1 non specs hit and can kill off the threat.
     
  31. jukain

    jukain rip pokemonumeros

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    No.
    Bulky =/= Broken
    Before blaming shit on brokenness why don't you play a bit more!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 9, 2013
  32. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    Before you go "LOL n00b"

    I am quite adept at NU, several people can attest to that, http://i.imgur.com/jokn2fn.png that is from yesterday.

    Second:being bulky CAN = broken, look at the blissey test going on in the UU tier currently. Do you think that's for its offensive power? And what about Deoxys-D? Or hazard setters like Crustle and Froslass? Just because it's not an offensive powerhouse doesn't mean it isn't broken.
     
  33. The Grimer lover

    The Grimer lover New Member

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    Muk on me
    Except for the part where those get almost guaranteed hazards giving their team a huge advantage turn 1. Does mola give me massive advantage just for using it turn 1? Protip: it doesn't. And Blissey is just massive paranoia of the second coming of Chansey.
     
  34. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    While I see your point, I don't personally see Momo as broken. Sure, she can take hits all fucking day, but she's setup fodder for anything that resists Waterfall, pretty much. Immunity to Toxic would also be nice, for obvious reasons, but that's nothing a Substitute and some bulk can't solve.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 6, 2013
  35. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    Yeah, I'm prob over exaggerating, just ignore what I said tbh, just really annoyed atm
     
  36. Incon

    Incon I feel incapable of seeing the end.

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    I'm gonna address a few things in this post.I'll start off with the two recent drops, Gastrodon and Ludicolo. Before I start, i'm just gonna say that I dont think either are broken.

    Gastrodon obviously gives Seismitoad a run for its money both offensively and defensively. Gastro is better than Seis in base stas sporting better bulk and offenses. Along with that comes a beefed up Water Absorb in Storm Drain granting a nice Special Attack boost with prediction. Gastro also gets Ice Beam and recovery; two things Seis would die for. Gastro pulls of a nice bulky attacking set. A bulky Specs set or Life Orb + three attacks + Recover would be pretty effective as it capitalizes on the perks it has over Seis. As opposed to other Special Attacking water types, Storm drain, immunity to Electric attacks, nice bulk, and Recover are its main selling points. Now that are two things that Seismitoad has that might warrant usage over Gastro; Stealth Rock and Swift Swim. Stealth Rock provides Seis with much more utility to support the team if opting for a defensive set despite lacking Recover. On the offensive side, Swift Swim turns Seis into a nice sweeper hitting hard and outspeeding most of the tier. With Ludicolo and the resurgence of Rain Teams, Seismitoad finds a new use in the tier. Both mons are strong in the current meta and both have different reasons to be used over the other. It comes down to what fits your team.

    Moving on to Ludi (and rain teams for that matter), I dont think its broken, just really strong. With natural bulk, swift swim, and an awesome typing, Ludi is a top tier threat. It can even pull off an effective Special Defensive set along side its great typing and array of utility moves. Yes, Ludi is incredibly hard to wall with a Rain Dance up and yes, its natural bulk makes it difficult to revenge kill, but it does have a few things that keep it in check. First off, Ludi struggles to break through dedicated walls such as Regice or Lickilicky without Focus Blast which isnt commonly run on the Sweeping set. The two walls can simply heal off the damage while Ludi racks up LO damage and wastes Rain Dance turns. Mantine completely walls Ludi as it can easiy stall it out with Resstalk or KO with a Specs Air Slash. Not to mention it can take advantage of Ludis Rain if running its own Swift Swim set. Ludicolo even counters itself very nicely taking little damage from any of its attacks. Now, this doesn't seem like a lot of checks but lets look at other Pokemon in tier who too have very little checks. Zangoose, Charizard, and SS Gorebyss come to mind. Zangoose's coverage + massive damage make it incredibly hard to wall, Zard wrecks anything including Special walls with its coverage and raw power especially if boosted by Sun, Gorebyss with a boost wrecks most of the tier (minus similar checks to Ludi), yet none have been deemed broken. All of these mons can be played around. Zangoose and Zard are worn down by residual damage and hazards, while Gorebyss also struggles to break through Special walls. Ludi falls into this same category suffering both from being worn down by LO and hazards while also struggling to break through walls. If were looking at this in perspective to other Pokemon in the tier, I would say Ludi is simply very strong, not broken.

    On the topic of potentional Alomomola suspect testing, I think Spoovo summed it up nicely describing it as set up fodde. Alomomola walls a lot of the tier and even provides wish support to the team, however its severe lack of offensive pressence and lackluster Special Defense, it is easily kept in check.

    Well, those are my thoughts on the drops. Any comments?
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2013
  37. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    So, here's my two cents.

    Ludicolo: Ludicolo is a great rain setter and promotes a new Rain-Dance oriented play style to be used in the NU tier which will ultimately provoke a diverse reaction and expand the tier leaving rom for more creative and interesting strategies, pokemon, etc. For example, to work against the plethora of up-and-coming bulky waters, I've been using a SDef Wood Hammer Abomasnow + Alomomola core to keep rain / waters in check while still functioning well against the metagame in general. (As opposed to Tang+Alo, with alo then being SDef.) Anyway, I don't think that Ludicolo breaks the tier. Here are some interesting calcs:
    252 SpAtk Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Lickitung (+SpDef) : 45.05% - 53.12% (2-3 hits to KO) [After protect + lefties, it isn't going to 2hko. Body Slam does decent damage and Wish / Protect stalls it well. Nice check.] This isn't even on Lickylicky. To late now since on Phone and just got off computer. Fuck.

    252 SpAtk Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs 252 HP/4 SpDef Regice: 45.05% - 52.75% (3 hits to KO) [Rain's included. Most run some special defense, so this isn't even a precise range. Another check.]

    252 SpAtk Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs 252 HP/252 +1 SpDef Munchlax (+SpDef) : 33.76% - 39.66% (3 hits to KO) [Rain's included. Basically walled.]

    252 SpAtk Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Abomasnow (+SpDef) : 48.6% - 57.01% (2-3 hits to KO) [After Protect and stuff, it works out assuming you use it with a water resist. Togehter, the core beats it while staying healthy.

    Liepard: FuckTheWorld.

    Alomomola(!?): Alright, so it's bulky and walls a decent amount of pokemon that cannot hit it s.e . SO WHAT? Here, lets see some calcs:
    252 SpAtk Life Orb Ludicolo Giga Drain vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Alomomola: 86.7% - 102.81% (93.75% chance to OHKO)

    252 SpAtk Life Orb Ludicolo Giga Drain vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Alomomola: 58.43% - 69.1% (2 hits to KO)

    252 Atk Choice Band Sawk (+Atk) Close Combat vs 252 HP/0 Def Alomomola: 70.79% - 83.33% (2 hits to KO)

    252 Atk Choice Band Sawk (+Atk) Close Combat vs 252 HP/252 Def Alomomola: 53.56% - 63.11% (2 hits to KO)

    252 SpAtk Choice Specs Eelektross (+SpAtk) Thunderbolt vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Alomomola: 102.62% - 121.35% (Guaranteed OHKO)

    252 SpAtk Life Orb Houndoom Hidden Power Grass vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Alomomola: 41.39% - 49.25% (2-3 hits to KO) [Ehhh]

    Not to mention, it's vulnerable to status, taunt, and everything else that breaks stall / walls which is on a majority of teams.
    Definetly not broken. (Walls that can adapt to the metagame and still survive and outwall teams like Blissey with Natural Cure are broken for a reason. Alomomola doesn't fit this catagory.)
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2013
  38. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Actually Ludicolo can quite easily 2hko Lickylicky in rain (which will most likely be up if Ludicolo is on the field).
    252 SpAtk Life Orb Ludicolo (+SpAtk) Hydro Pump vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Lickilicky (+SpDef) : 57.31% - 68.16% (2 hits to KO)[/HIDE]

    The standard Regice set is also likely to be 2hko'd
    252 SpAtk Life Orb Ludicolo (+SpAtk) Hydro Pump vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Regice: 48.63% - 57.97% (2-3 hits to KO)[/HIDE]

    Although people could and likely will opt to run max Sp Def Regice to Check Ludi, but even then after taking SR damage it's very likely to 2hko
    252 SpAtk Life Orb Ludicolo (+SpAtk) Hydro Pump vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Regice (+SpDef) : 39.01% - 46.43% (3 hits to KO)[/HIDE]

    So Licklicky can't switch in if rain is up, and Regice can't switch in if Rain + Stealth Rocks are up.

    That leaves 3 pokemon able to reliably switch in on Ludicolo (without reaching for obscure pokemon) Mantine, Munchlax + Sp Def Ludicolo.

    Mantine can sponge any of Ludicolo's attacks with ease (barring something like HP Electric, which would be very difficult to slot in Ludicolo's movepool outside of a dedicated rain team) and can threaten out with flying STAB, and potentially even use the swift swim set to countersweep.

    Munchlax is just extremely specially bulky and can para Ludi with body slam, crippling it for the remainder of the match.

    Sp Def Ludi is probably the best and surefire guarantee to countering Ludicolo. Rain Dish, Leftovers + Giga Drain recovery Vs Life Orb recoil + Giga Drain recovery = Sp Def Ludi winning that fight every single time.

    Also Hydro Pump is only 80% accurate so nothing is guaranteed.

    Overall Ludicolo is definitely a force to be reckoned with, is it broken? idk
     
  39. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Lickylicky has Cloud Nine. Rain < it. Easily avoids 2hko.

    Regice still isn't always 2HKOd with rocks up if you factor lefties in.

    3, if not more, other reliable answers to Ludicolo just adds to what it has going against it.

    Basically, Ludicolo isn't staying alive that long. Ludicolo isn't always picking the best move / predicting well, and Ludicolo won't be breaking through its counters.
     
  40. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Wish + Cloud Nine aren't compatible, and since regice can be 2hko'd around 40% of the time (after rocks) it can't really be called reliable.
     
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