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Discussion in 'Gen 5 NU' started by Finchinator, Jul 1, 2013.
SAWK SUSPECT DISCUSSION!
Time to see the made up term "overcentralization" used about 50 times in 3 posts!
I do support at least a suspect discussion of it despite the sarcasm, but that will happen.
This might not be the best way to say this (lol @Finch), but LET'S GET THE DOGS OUTTA NU. No not different kinds of dogs, just one. Anyone with any NU knowledge knows what I mean. If anything I thought it would go to UU, but it dropped ONLY because of usage. However, we have the power to get it out not based on usage, but based on brokenness. I UNDERSTAND that you people like to abuse it, and that's why so many people will be opposed to banning it, but you ARE in fact ABUSING tha dawg. It's called abusing because it's something broken. I won't go into too much detail because I'm pretty sure everyone, even the people who don't want to admit it, know that at the very least, it should be suspected. It's had its time in the limelight, now lets kick that nigga out.
Yui has a point. I saw the usage statistics, and Houndoom's getting a decent 4.5% usage in UU. It has to break 4% in LU to rise a tier though, doesn't it?
No. If Houndoom has over 4% usage in UU, it rises to UU (regardless of usage in LU).
Ahh, I see. I figured that was the case, but wasn't certain. If that happens, it could mean the Sawk problems in NU are over come August. Without Houndoom, Sawk's a lot more manageable.
Honestly, if houndoom rises to uu, I'm fine with sawk then, it was a 2step problem honestly, drapion and skunktank are good, but not on houndooms level for trapping since they can be burned and doom cant :] doom even gets a boost from it
I've seen some people complaining about Musharna being broken in this thread, so throwing my 2 Cents in:
I don't think Musharna is broken - in fact, I've always been a bit disappointed by it. Offensively it's outclassed by Mesprit and Gardevoir, who have better movepools, higher speed and in Gardevoir's case higher special attack. Defensively, I personally prefer Duosion since it gets Magic Guard, the boost from Eviolite, and hits harder (I will concede Heal Bell is a good USP Musharna has over Duosion though). It has a few crippling flaws that hold it back IMO:
Anything with Taunt can easily force it out unless it's grabbed a lot of boosts
Most Dark types can usually force it out, possibly smacking it for a powerful Pursuit in the process. The 3 most common Dark types in NU (Houndoom, Skuntank, Drapion) are all neutral to Signal Beam, while the latter 2 are neutral to HP Fighting. They do have to watch out for HP Ground though.
Unless it opts for HP Fighting/Ground, most Steel types wall it. Klinklang uses it as set up fodder.
It has a massive case of 4 moveslot syndrome on the Calm Mind set. If it opts for Heal Bell, it's walled hard by Dark types. If it opts for Signal Beam, it's walled by Steel types crippled by Toxic. If it opts for HP Fighting/Ground, it's crippled by Toxic.
For those reasons I don't think it's broken.
On my phone and I won't be able to make a proper post for a while, but honestly, it seems like people just need to adapt their teams to handle this new change in the metagame. It almost seems like people have gotten lazy; Psychic types are not absolutely required to check Sawk if your team is built right. Quite honestly, only Mesprit has no chance of beating Houndoom as well. Gardevoir shouldn't be spamming WoW if you see a dog and has Focus Blast, while Musharna has a +1 HP Ground to hit it with. I'll flesh this out a lot more later, but I really haven't seen much of a problem. More like a huge shift in the dynamic of the tier as of late. A pokemon like Houndoom does that sometmes. Think Nidoqueen in LU.
On that note it was harder to check Medicham in DP NU than it is to check Sawk now. Not really relevant but thought I'd throw that out there.
The tier is so bland and stagnant now lol, always feel so limited in my teambuilding, but w/e only 2 months to go!
bring on gen 6
and I hope it doesnt start super late like last time
although i am still somehow finding new good stuff after 10000+ battles on 300+ different teams
I hope you're both aware that it takes about 5-6 months for NU to form since we base tiers off of percentage stats.
I just like how on ranked stats, last time I checked them for July, Seismitoad took Musharna's #5 spot. Pretty much solidifies the fact that usage stats are garbage in terms of actually depicting the metagame, anywhere you look. At least for me.
You only need to find a few matches on the ladder to see what its like, but like i say not too long left til gen 6 is here, even if there isnt nu for a while, new mons will keep me occupied.
Claydol 3.71779 1378
NU might finally get a good spinner.
Ahh, the slippery slope effect. Everyone forgets that a pokemon is no LU instead of UU, and thus it falls down to NU without anyone noticing. xD
Claydol in nu would be SO nice :D It's a great spinner and has access to rocks, sadly no recovery but it's pretty bulky, but its typing does leave a little to be desired, especially since it'll be weak to the popular pursuit in NU
Except that all the users of Pursuit, Houndoom, Skuntank and Drapion get wrecked by Earthquake. Also Claydol can easily take any hit.
Yeah, that is true, but it will be 2hko'd by crunch and I doubt eq would ohko any of them without investment, even houndoom
All houndoom's are Ohko'd by earthquake after sr and -def houndoom are ohko'd without it. But skuntank and drapion are still a problem though.
Well out of those, offensive Drapion's the only one that would be hit harder by Earth Power. Skuntank takes basically the same damage from both moves, and Houndoom's murdered by EQ after rocks. The other two are solidly 2HKOed by an uninvested Earthquake though, so if Claydol runs a physically defensive set it'll be able to break the Sawk/trapper core pretty well. :3
252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Claydol: 109-129 (33.64 - 39.81%) -- 26.37% chance to 3HKO
Just make sure to throw in Wish support. xD
Ferroseed 2.89817 1102
Not sure if fun, or bad thing.
With Sawk all over the place Ferroseed won't be doing much good in NU. It lacks reliable recovery and is total Taunt bait.
Actually Ferroseed has incredible defensive typing which pairs impeccably with Alomomola's wish passing capabilities, and it can stall out pokes with leech seed and set up 4 layers of hazards. Ferroseed is a great pokemon, who's only 2 weaknesses can be patched up easily on any sort of team, and especially stall or balanced team. Ferroseed dropping would be an easy revival of stall in NU, something I personally wouldn't appreciate, but healthy for NU overall
Steel-typing and being able to set-up Spikes is huge. It won't find a place on Hyper Offensive teams but it could definitely be a solid choice on a stall team. Just because it has weakness to Fighting-type moves, doesn't mean it'll have no effect. Plus Taunt in NU is scarce, not a lot of high usage Pokemon use it bar Skuntank. Since you're basing your argument on usage, I guess I will too!
Having Stealth Rock and Spikes is a good USP. And NU doesn't really have a good special wall ATM. OK, it might be better than I thought - the Ferroseed/Alomomola core could be very effective (although Sunny Day Charizard can easily handle both). Fighting and Fire moves are both quite common in NU though, so...guess we'll have to wait and see.
Well if Ferroseed drops to NU I can see Torkoals usage going up alot... because it has a x4 super effective STAB move, and Rapid Spin to pretty much fully counter Ferroseed. Wartortle can only spam Scald to burn it >.<
I see a Ferro/Momo/Missy core working out pretty well here. Missy for cleric, Momo for wishes, Ferro for hazards and Leech Seed support. Missy also runs a fast Taunt if needed, too.
This could suck. I hate stall. D:
Braviary 4.48068 1752
Scyther 4.1252 1613
JUST DROP TO NU ALREADY!! It is your natural home! Braviary please, please drop. Scyther will do better in NU since it really can't cut it in LU.
Also, if you're worried about stall getting a boost:
Dusclops 4.0229 1573
no braviary, stay out, scyther u can come back, dusknoir i want you, absol + claydol would be cool too.
Braviary would be great in NU. Dusknoir would be good, Dusclops would not. It'll be Cresselia in LU all over again. Absol would be interesting - another trapper in the tier. Claydol would be good too, it's about time we got a decent spinner.
I'll make a really large post about these potential drops, hide tags will be in for the sakes of it.
Claydol could actually find some use in NU as a spinner.
The first notable things Claydol has going for it are Levitate and the Rock resist, so Claydol doesn't even give two fucks about entry hazards. It also has a very good support movepool in Stealth Rock, Light Screen, Reflect, Rapid Spin, etc. This means Claydol has uses as a supportive Pokemon, capable of supporting its team well. It has nice 60 / 105 / 120 bulk to use as well, which means that it can take hits well to be able to support its team. Being a Psychic-type is also nice in a Psychic-type meta, since Claydol can join the club, being a more supportive Pokemon. It has a nice set of resistances which means it checks some threats such as Mesprit, Sawk, and Rhydon. Claydol can also be a Trick Room supporter to an extent, so Claydol does have uses on full TR teams.
That said, I think Claydol's lack of offensive presence will be a major drawback. This means Claydol is relatively helpless against Misdreavus, which is the best spinblocker in the tier, as it cannot do a large amount of damage to it. Claydol's weakness to Ghost does not help, so it's weak to Misdreavus's Shadow Ball. Claydol will need to depend on Pursuit support from Houndoom and the potential Absol drop to be able to successfully pull of the needed spin; although these two are pretty good Pokemon anyways, I guess. Claydol also imo faces stiff competition as a support Pokemon from Mesprit and Musharna; although they don't have Rapid Spin, they have the amazing Thunder Wave, while they have less weaknesses; Mesprit also has U-turn while Musharna has Moonlight to stay healthy. Mesprit and Musharna also hit rather hard so Claydol may see some competition from them as team supporters.
Basically, Claydol will not be an extreme top tier Pokemon by any means, and like Gardevoir, Claydol won't be in the league of Mesprit or Musharna as Psychic-types, but its access to Rapid Spin and Stealth Rock will allow it to carve a niche of its own, and Rapid Spin plus Levitate would be a very good niche since Rapid Spinners are scarce; and hopefully people may also stop using Armaldo.[/HIDE]
I think Ferroseed will definitely be one of the best Spikers in the tier and a staple on stall teams.
Ferroseed has pretty nice bulk with Eviolite, and its typing is also somewhat decent defensively, and Iron Barbs is also really good ability and along with Leech Seed, Ferroseed can wear down opponents pretty easily while reliably getting Spikes up for its team. Ferroseed also has Thunder Wave, which makes it good on bulky offense; it gets hazards up, but also slows down faster teams to help out bulky teams. Gyro Ball hits for alright damage despite Ferroseed's pitiful Attack, so it can do something aside from supporting its team. Ferroseed would be a staple on stall, but I don't think it will be limited to stall teams; bulky offense appreciates its ability to support the team and it does so reliably.
I think Munchlax and Misdreavus would be two of Ferroseed's best teammates; they resist Fire- and Fighting-type moves, respectively for Ferroseed, while the latter can use Heal bell to remove status from Ferroseed. Munch+Missy also have great synergy anyways. They can also utilize the hazards Ferroseed sets up, as Munchlax phazes with Whirlwind while Misdreavus can spinblock the hazards. Alomomola also works very well with Ferroseed, having fantastic synergy while passing Wishes to keep it healthy.
In short, Ferroseed would definitely be very good in NU. It can fit on both stall teams and balance imo, and could be great for teams that appreciate the support Ferroseed provides. Ferroseed could also give Roselia competition as a Grass-type spiker; Roselia is still a great Pokemon and would still see great usage, but Roselia and Ferroseed will be rivals on teams for Grass-type bulky Spikers.[/HIDE]
In my opinion Braviary would easily be one of, if not the best Pokemon in the tier if it dropped.
The cool things about Braviary are that it has a really high Attack stat, a good Speed by NU standards, and good bulk to work with. Braviary also has very good STABs, and great coverage in Superpower as well as scouting in U-turn, which would make Braviary very hard to play around. It also has Defiant so rare Intimidate users will be scared to come in on it. Braviary can run three distinct sets; it's an amazing wallbreaker with CB, breaking down walls like no other and hitting plain hard, while U-turn gives it great scouting prowess. It's also an excellent revenge killer with Scarf, and hits pretty hard for a Scarf user. SubBU is also a big nuisance, as Braviary has great bulk to set up with BU, which along with Roost, makes it really hard to take down, while it will hit very hard with Brave Bird. Braviary would be the bane to stall teams.
I think Tangela usage may decrease with Braviary around, as Braviary outright destroys it. I'm not sure what else would drop in usage, although I'm sure Braviary would be a big force in the tier, and would definitely be Top 10, if not Top 5, because of the many positive qualities it brings.
(but seriously I would be so pissed if it dropped, Braviary is amazing in LU and deserves to stay there)[/HIDE]
This thing was NU on Smogon before, and I play a lot of Smogon tiers, so I can speak here from firsthand experience.
Absol would probably be one of NU's most prominent Pokemon. It would be a great trapper alongside Houndoom, and with its high Attack and Superpower, Absol has what it needs to be able to stand out from Houndoom. Absol hits much harder than Houndoom with Sucker Punch, Pursuit, and Night Slash, so Absol can strike more terror into the hearts of Mesprit and Musharna, which make it a great partner for Sawk. Absol can also deal heavy damage to Misdreavus and the potential Dusclops drop if it ends up dropping, which adds more to Absol's appeal. Absol also has Swords Dance, and along with its frightening Attack and STAB Sucker Punch, Absol would be a top physical sweeper, pulverizing teams like a complete boss after a boost. Absol's Speed isn't too bad either, so it outspeeds some things in the tier.
Skuntank is a Pokemon I feel will decrease in usage most; because it now has even more competition in Absol, and Skuntank may fall into obscurity if both Houndoom and Absol are both in the tier, since they have better trapping prowess and have potential to sweep teams, pushing Skuntank into the shadows. Gurdurr would also rise in usage imo, because Gurdurr makes one of the best checks to Absol around, Mach Punching it to the death and having the physical bulk to take whatever Absol has to offer. Hariyama and Primeape would also rise because they check Absol pretty well.
In short, Absol would definitely be pretty prominent in NU, as it gives us another Dark-type that has the great ability to hit pretty hard and sweep with Swords Dance. I think Absol would see great usage in NU, because it has things that make it really good.[/HIDE]
Dusclops would be a bitch to take down, and imo it would definitely be the best spinblocker in the tier and a staple on stall teams.
Dusclops is an NFE, which means it can use Eviolite, and that bolsters its already good 130 Defenses to formidable levels that make it immensely difficult to KO. Dusclops also has an excellent defensive typing, so it would make the best Sawk counter in the whole tier (Mesprit and Musharna will be jealous of Dusclops), and it has Will-O-Wisp to stop all Fighting-types. Its titanic bulk means it can also endure repeated Pursuits from Houndoom, which is nice to prevent it from completely stopping Dusclops. Dusclops has Curse too, which means it can stall opponents and keep a team weakened, while poor HP and Pain Split allow it to heal up some great HP back to be a pain in the ass to face. RestTalk is also a fine set that can keep it healthy and just wall for weeks. Pressure is also cool to drain the PP of moves while stalling. It has cool moves in Memento and Trick Room too, which is nice.
Sawk would probably see less usage because it is almost completely helpless against Dusclops, while Houndoom usage may go up to Pursuit trap Dusclops. A potential Absol drop could also be useful to trap Dusclops, while other Fighting-types such as Hariyama and Primeape could see less usage too because of the fact that they get hard countered by Dusclops.
In short, just like what Dr. Doom said, I feel that Dusclops would be like Cresselia in LU in the sense that while it doesn't hit hard, it just sits there and never gets KO'd. It would be really solid on stall teams and would be a pain in the ass to face, as it walls pretty much everything while Will-O-Wisp is annoying, [/HIDE]
One thing I find interesting is that, for the first time since Gen 5 started, Dusknoir has outshone Dusclops. Right at the end of it all. xD
But dear God, Dusclops in NU would be sheer hell. Basically nothing would be able to kill it without some serious stallbreaking (it's kinda useless when Taunted). D:
I hope Scyther stays LU tbh. Not that it overpowered NU in the slightest, but the LU tier works slightly better for it because they actually have decent spinners there. If Claydol drops though, it won't matter much. xD
Absol... isn't overpowered on Smogon's NU, and we have a few things Smogon NU doesn't to keep it in check, such as Scarf Emboar, so I don't see it mauling the tier immediately.
Ferro's been in NU before, and if memory serves it was pretty great back then too. Braviary will have all the complications of a missile, which means it should fuck shit up pretty efficiently. Could be interesting. :3
Just to Re-iterate, Ferroseed would be incredibly good in nu, its typing affords it 11 resistances/immunities and only 2 weaknesses. A core I see becoming extremely prominent is Sp Def Ferroseed for Hazards and it's great resistances, Mixed Defense/Sp Def Alomomola for Wish passing and taking Fire hits, and Defensive Misdreavus for Blocking Rapid Spin + a Fighting Immunity.
That core would be very strong, however it won't be so much a problem as long as Braviary drops since it's sub bulk up set can through teams like these.
So i'd only like Ferro to fall if Braviary does also.
Also watch out for Rhydon's usage to spike if Braviary drops.
Metang too, most likely. It's one of the few things that can tank TWO of any hit from Braviary, if memory serves.
Yeah but only Psych Up Metang can beat Bulk Up Braviary, Rhydon can phaze with roar and takes nothing from brave bird, so generally any rock types with roar will spike in usage most likely, as theyre the safest bet to beat Braviary.
I'm fairly sure Absol was NU here a pretty long time ago, but then again I played a lot of both communities' NU tiers so I'm probably getting mixed up. It's too much of a one trick pony to really be broken, since that trick is very easily stalled out or played around. It'll probably be fine if it drops.
Claydol will still be disappointing purely as a spinner, although Ground typing will stop it from being pursuit bait from all the scary dark types roaming around. EQ very nearly OHKOs Houndoom and Drapion+Skuntank take a fair bit of damage as well. It could work very well on a defensive core with a bit of Wish support. It+Ferro+Alomomola or maybe Lickilicky would be a pretty strong combo defensively speaking.
That and Dusclops would just destroy the "BAN SAWK" lobby.
Finch Edit: Ban Sawk Army = AfroSmash and followers!
Cased Edit: Omg the assman for the Arcanines is so cute mmm
What can I say, I'm a trend setter, and yeah if we get Dusknoir, Dusclops or Claydol to drop then Sawk won't be as easy to use, and that lot aren't as easy to trap either because of Will o Wisp or EQ, although Dusclops will always lose to Houndoom.
Edit: Just had a major brainwave, unban Gothorita then Sawk won't be broked anymore!!!
0 Atk Dusclops Earthquake vs 0 HP/0 Def Houndoom: 63.92% - 75.6%
252 SpAtk Life Orb Houndoom Dark Pulse vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Eviolite Dusclops: 57.75% - 68.66%
One does not simply OHKO a Dusclops. After rocks and LO recoil, EQ stands a very nice chance of KOing.
Wow imagine dying to an attack from Dusclops that wasn't Seismic/Night Shade, pathetic. But I Don't think people will be forgoing Seismic Toss for EQ, when Dusclops can just switch out and not even take that much if Houndoom goes for Pursuit, and EQ makes it set up fodder for a lot of pokemon.
Ew Def Dusclops + Sp Def Licki cores, Topah get your Scraggy ready.
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