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[BW2] Suspect Discussion: Tornadus

Discussion in 'Gen 5 LU' started by Tyki, Jul 4, 2013.

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  1. Tyki

    Tyki Change

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    [​IMG]

    Discuss the possibility of Tornadus being banned from the LU tier.

    Try to make intelligent posts based off of experience in the tier. Posts based off theorymon are at risk of being infracted.

    Try to find the checks and counters of Tornadus as well as its impact and power in the tier. Do not simply say "it's broken" or "it's not broken". Back up your arguments on why you think it should be banned or not.

    If a consensus is reached after a few weeks, it will likely be implemented. If not, a vote will likely be held. As mentioned before, posts with solid arguments will be taken into consideration.
     
  2. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    Imo Tornadus is broken in LU because it outspeeds pretty much the whole tier and only Lanturn can check it. Prankster allows it to scout Choice Scarf users with Substitute and possibly annoy them with Swagger as well. It also has great coverage moves like Focus Blast, Grass Knot and Heat Wave to take out pokes like Steelix and Clefable.
     
  3. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Well, I agree with the previous poster that Tornadus is broken, but not because of Swagger or his other reasoning.

    Tornadus does indeed have few to no checks, with the unreliable 'checks' being Physically Defensive Lanturn and Bulky Rotom-A.
    However, it's real niche in LU that makes it stand out even more is Prankster + Bulk Up + Substitute in conjunction with High Attacking / Speed stats and Acrobatics. Just look at all these things it has going for it.

    Here's the set:

    Bird (Tornadus) @ Flying Gem
    Trait: Prankster
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Acrobatics
    - Superpower / Brick Break
    - Substitute
    - Bulk Up

    Realistically, +1 Acrobatics (with or without gem) is doing a ton of damage to anything, that doesn't resist it. Also, Superpower and/or Brick Break works very well as a coverage move to hurt Aggron, Steelix, and everything else neutrally/super effectively - bar Rotom-A (and flying Rotom.)

    In addition to having a physical set that's a huge threat, Tornadus-I can be a special / mixed attacker and a rain dance setter.
     
  4. AmourShipper

    AmourShipper meh i'm bored

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    Tornadus is very broken in LU for numerous reasons. For one, there aren't many hard counters available to Tornadus in LU; the only one that particularly stands out is Lanturn, and the things that counter Tornadus all share one very important issue; they have no recovery, which means over the course of the match, they can get repeatedly worn down, which means there is no way to repeatedly counter Tornadus throughout the match. This also means Tornadus is incredibly hard to switch into, and not only that; its Speed tier is great by LU standards, and forces a very fast paced metagame around it. Stall becomes rather difficult to use due to Tornadus, compared to it being relatively strong in the MeloQueenNadus less meta; I run full stall and it's troublesome dealing with Tornadus. Tornadus can run both a deadly physical and special set; the post above already testifies the power of AcroNadus, but the special Rain Dance set is deadly, being able to hit ridiculously hard and fast while supporting Pokemon such as Kabutops and Omastar, the former of which can also remove Stealth Rock for Tornadus. For calc, here's a Tornadus's Hurricane against the Pokemon with good special bulk in the tier:

    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 116+ SpD Slowking: 187-222 (47.58 - 56.48%) -- 31.25% chance to 2HKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 92+ SpD Cryogonal: 164-192 (47.81 - 55.97%) -- 29.69% chance to 2HKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 133-157 (46.83 - 55.28%) -- 71.09% chance to 2HKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 191-226 (48.47 - 57.36%) -- 45.7% chance to 2HKO

    As you can see, this is pretty strong, as Pokemon that have nice special bulk such as Cryogonal and Dusclops have risk of getting 2HKO'd, which is pretty insane. Indeed, I've used all of these Pokemon before on a full stall team, and they all had immense difficulty trying to stop Tornadus due to getting cleanly 2HKO'd. Tornadus in general can do a ton of damage to anything that does not resist its onslaughts. The best way to be able to deal with Tornadus is to be able to outspeed it; Pokemon such as Sceptile, Scolipede, and Cinccino for example, and only the latter two pose any real threat to Tornadus. Tornadus also forces the use of Choice Scarf Electric-types such as Rotom-C and Manectric, as they are the best salvage against Tornadus in general. All of these make Tornadus broken in LU.
     
  5. palkia62

    palkia62 Member

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    I'm guessing by this you mean you defeated multiple tornadus that day with your metang.

    Also, you were just fortunate enough that you only took on the acrobatics set, which is generally the set commonly used by players. However, Tornadus-I special attack is much greater than its attack stat as well as the fact it has a lot of coverage with that special movepool and as shown by Scraftyisthebest, Hurricane has a chance to 2hko a lot of special walls if they don't have max investment or a beneficial nature for SpD.

    Tornadus is also a good weather lead especially with rain as it has hurricane and can also run the infamous swagger + foul play set to really to annoy opponents.
     
  6. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    If you have to reach down to the depths of NU to find things to wall Tornadus (Metang + Stunfisk) that goes to help the argument of it being broken rather than it not being. Also countered by every electric type in the tier? Rotom-C nope, galvantula nope, manectric nope. All except bulky Rotom Ghost (and lanturn) are easily 2hko'd by Tornadus's flying stab, special or physical, or ohko'd by a coverage move such as focus blast or heat wave. idk if tornadus is broken, but what you said isn't true, and doesn't show it's not broken.
     
  7. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    "If they don't have MAX investment"

    He's still invested, probably mostly. You really seem to hate things being banned o-O
     
  8. New Breed

    New Breed ka$h

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    Just posting this here in case anyone didn't see it in the other thread. If anyone has any solid argument as to why they think Tornadus isn't broken in the LU tier then feel free to post lol.
     
  9. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    What I said about Tornadus in the LU Suspects thread:

    Why should it stay? Why is it not broken?
     
  10. Virizion

    Virizion ~ Taste the Rainbow ~

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    In my honest opinion, I think that Tornadus isn't good enough for UU, as we have may have found out, however it's obviously broken or just very powerful for the tier (I would say). This is where BL2 comes in, I would say. It's ridiculous 115 / 125 / 111 stats, paired with Prankster, Rain Dance + Hurricane, Substitute + Bulk Up, along with even fairly decent 79 / 70 / 80 defenses for an all-out attacker, Tornadus is definitely a force to be reckoned with. Since it has amazing physical and special attacking stats, you're never not going to know what Tornadus is doing unless you let it set-up either Rain Dance, Substitute or Bulk Up. While it boasts a weakness to Stealth Rock and weaknesses to common Electric / Rock / Ice type attacks, especially in Wifi UU, are these enough to let Tornadus down a bit? Can you just use other Pokémon to support Tornadus?
     
  11. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    That isn't how suspecting works. If something is broken in LU, it is moved to BL2. Tornadus's ability in UU has no relevance in LU and shouldn't be brought up here.
     
  12. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    From experience when Tornadus was last LU, sub BU was the best set it had. Substitute, Bulk Up, Brick Break/Superpower (TROPPOFORTE!), Acrobatics with flying gem got extremely good coverage. It could run a special set, or rain support set, but both those fail in comparison to the accuracy and power that the physical set runs. The special set is basically at the mercy of accuracy and hurricane/focus blast missing a lot, and the rain set up set has a hard time really finding a big niche for tornadus itself outside set up rain, potentially die to the faster scarf they bring in (OR AERODACTYL or ACCELGOR or CHAMPION CINCCINO!). It's pretty much at the mercy of revenge killers for the most part if the sub is destroyed meaning it will have to switch out, but can be brought out again to set up with the possible same scenario's playing out over and over wearing down you down.

    IMO the physical set is what guaranteed breaks the tier, while you are playing william tell on the special set, and potentially doing nothing of consequence with a rain support set. That being said having 1 set that definitely breaks the tier on coverage/power, with 2 other possible sets given the right circumstance of the RNG or based on an opponent's team, Tornadus is pretty much too much of a powerhouse in the tier. Nothing in the tier bar lanturn will really be effective in having use and taking a tornadus hit. Also, common parts of the physical set (aka substitute) can be used on the special set to fake out making an opponent think you are physical tornadus, when you pop off a hurricane/focus blast and reveal the more devastating aspects of the pokemon. Last time I used it in LU, a lot of people were frustrated learning that my sub tornadus wasn't physical and gave up right after popping off one of those moves and KO'ing their only potential shot at killing me by living "potentially" a physical hit.

    tl:dr, physical tornadus is guaranteed broken with the mixing of the power on a special set or rain support set that you don't really know what they are running making it a threat on all sides even when the last 2 are somewhat questionable on being successful.
     
  13. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf Active Member

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    rrrrrepost

     
  14. Virizion

    Virizion ~ Taste the Rainbow ~

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    Yeah sorry about that, I'm starting to lose my common sense more, and the fact that I was speaking bulls*** all day on PO due to something that happened to my head didn't really help my case. I'll change the post shortly.
     
  15. The Real Elmo

    The Real Elmo Caterpie hungers...

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    After the discussion in this thread, and between Xdevo, Tyki, and myself, we have decided to BAN Tornadus from the Wifi LU tier.

    Look forward to a ladder ranking reset in the very near future too ^_^
     
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