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[BW2] Landorus-I Suspect Discussion

Discussion in 'Gen 5 Discussion' started by Halsey, Jul 26, 2013.

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  1. Halsey

    Halsey Wildstar

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    [​IMG]

    Discuss the possibility of Landorus-I being banned from the Wifi OU tier. Use this thread to discuss Landorus-I's effect on the metagame. Talk about the different sets it can use, good partners and potential checks/counters. State your opinion on whether you think Landorus-I should be banned or if it should stay in the Wifi OU tier but make sure your posts are backed up by experience and knowledge. Anyone who makes post based on theorymon risks being infracted. This thread will be up for a minimum of two weeks. If a vote is needed, this topic will be bumped, and details will be provided.
     
  2. Yagura

    Yagura

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    I don't think that Landorus-I is a big threat in the Wifi OU tier because each team has an Ice move or two that grantees an OHKO , and it's not related to weather like the other two and as dangerous as them. But it DOES have a high attack that may make it a very dangerous sweeper if you don't know how to deal with it.

    So, in my opinion: KEEP IT!
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2013
  3. Princess Luna

    Princess Luna Resident Pegasister

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    Basically That^

    I saw a lot of people raging about it's sweeping potential in the sticky thread but then someone said "You're implying it can run all it's sets at once" which is where it falls flat on its face

    yes its a good poke yes its a good sweeper but so is scizor so is salamence so is dragonite so is gyarados but they arent being suspected because?
    because they all have counters and landorus has counters. start with Bronzong can wall it to hell and back with levitate/steel typing then theres the 4x ice weakness. let's be honest if you dont have at least ONE ice move SOMEWHERE (mamoswine,cloyster,weavile,HP Ice on something, Ice shard on donphan) You are seriously asking to be wrecked by this thing and every dragon in the tier all the top OU Teams have at least one if not 2 ice moves somewhere and when you consider ice shard from mamoswine/cloyster is an OHKO and from donphan is damn near it well it's not the greatest poke ever, it's not incredibly broken and not ubers worthy.
    Now granted i think this is pointless and everyone is just going to bitch and moan until it gets banned (Hi Deo-D, Blissey from UU and Tornadus T) but i still say

    Keep It
     
  4. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Delta Stream

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    The physical sets are ok, but the RP special set is what breaks it. It has so many resistances and immunities that switching in and setting up becomes something even a bad OU player can do without thinking. 1 RP and it can outspeed most common Scarf users, hits like a truck, and no LO recoil on most moves. In fact, Ice Shards and superb prediction is the only way to beat it unless bad player.

    Edit: Everyone says “use iceeee”. well after one RP lando-i outspeeds pretty much all ice users and can retaliate w/ SE. Only Ice Shard can even touch it
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2013
  5. HBC

    HBC Health, Beauty and Cosmetics!

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    I think Landorus-I is quite strong in OU, but as said before, everyone has pokemons with Water or Ice moves, and Politoed, which is a good counter for it, is often used in OU, therefore it shall stay in OU.
     
  6. Raiza

    Raiza Active Member

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    I don't think Politoed is a great counter because at 50-60% it's one shotted by earth power and If it's at full health epower does like 50-60% against bulky toed and 70-80% to the other sets so you'll probably lose the weather war(tyranitar is a common mate of Landorus).
    Now I'll post the message I've posted in BW2 OU Potential Suspect discussion that encloses my opinion.
    I've used for a long time(and also use it now on the beta server) the set 3 Special Attacks + U-Turn Landorus that is fantastic and so broken, also due to the addition of Sheer Force in the early bw2, U-Turn covers you from Celebi and Latias allowing you to switch to CBTyranitar and get an easy kill. Rock Polish set is good too, yes it's walled by the mentioned Celebi and Latias that force you to switch(both have regen moves), But they can be killed by CBTyranitar and the next time you will sweep with no problems.

    Ban
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2013
  7. MUMU

    MUMU DNR KILLED IT

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    While it does have good attack power,it's not enough to ohko most pokemon without some damage done before,which is same for most of ou.
    And physical sets are easy to check with skarmory/landorus t etc. It's rock polish set that's slightly harder to handle,BUT since it needs a turn to do it,and the damage it often takes during that turn lets it get knocked out by priority quite often. That means it's good,but not broken as a sweeper.

    My vote,
    Keep It.

    EDIT:With all the calcs and checks being posted, just saying ,celebi always check it,as can some bulky offence pokemon,not to mention Bronzong.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2013
  8. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Landorus-I is a very unique pokemon. Before it gained it's dreamworld ability it was a pretty strong pokemon during the BW 1 metagame with it's sand force boosted attacks. Since then the special sets have been boosted to an untapped potential with Sheer Force being released on it with a LO set. It's got a good enough movepool to run a physical or special set, enhanced by band, scarf, or life orb. As well the speed increasing move of Rock Polish makes both kinds of sets incredibly dangerous by giving it a +2 speed and outspeeding most scarf mons that can other wise kill it no problem.

    Now it does have a glaring weakness that a lot of other pokemon in OU have in that it's got a big 4x weakness to a common coverage type in Ice. But, that doesn't hinder it's power. For those above saying having that weakness doesn't make it broken, look at what makes a counter. A counter a pokemon that can come in on any of the standard coverage moves that the pokemon in suspect will have and be able to live it an retaliate back via outspeeding it in the next round. If it only manages to force a switch it only makes it a check.

    Let's take a few for example:
    252 SpAtk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Mamoswine: 95.29% - 112.74% (75% chance to OHKO) after rocks this is a OHKO.

    252 SpAtk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Donphan: 89.58% - 105.99% (37.5% chance to OHKO) after rocks it's a 75% chance.
    In return: 252 Atk Donphan (+Atk) Ice Shard vs 0 HP/0 Def Landorus: 62.7% - 73.98%

    252 SpAtk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Cloyster: 94.08% - 110.86% 62.5% chance to OHKO-dead on a set that doesn't even get used.
    In return: 252 Atk Cloyster (+Atk) Ice Shard vs 0 HP/0 Def Landorus: 80.25% - 95.3% (50% chance to KO with rocks up)

    252 SpAtk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Weavile: 92.88% - 109.61% (after SR it's 100% KO)
    252 Atk Weavile (+Atk) Ice Shard vs 0 HP/0 Def Landorus: 94.04% - 110.34% (100% KO with SR)

    Ice shard mons are good revenge killers, but not capable of switching in as a counter. Now there are a few pokemon that stand out such as Bronzong and Cresselia who are able to take Landorus' mammoth attacking power and shrug them off. Both have levitate that neutralizes Landorus main stab, of which the only way it'd be able to hit either for good damage would be with a gravity set. Which it has the power of doing as U-Turn and Gravity could be seen interchangeable, but not seen often. It'd still be effective. Chansey and Blissey mammoth special bulk also can manage the power of living special landorus, but will end up having to fear physical or who knows of mixed sets existing out there.

    Politoed isn't a counter 100% only a check. Scarf toed is what would make landorus feel the pressure and nothing else because unless you are running a max special bulk set for the Landorus special set. Regular non invested Politoed can live one hit and if it's scarf can revenge it that way, but it is not a 100% counter. It is only a check to make them fear staying in.

    Small Edit: With landorus having 4 move syndrome one of it's biggest problems is taking flying/levitate types on with the lack of power that HP ice has in most cases making the move a 2HKO more often than not and usually needing the move for certain pokemon. So it's a highly effective sweeper versus a lot other than those in most cases that can outspeed and/or revenge kill it. I.E. needing something all together for skarmory, rotom-w, latias, latios who manage to revenge unless it has U-turn in the case of the last 2.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2013
  9. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    Ughhhhh, please not this. Lando-I isn't broken in any way. The OU metagame has been fine up to this point without it and there is no reason to take it out. It doesn't benefit anything.
    Anyway, the best set is probably:

    (Landorus) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sheer Force
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Modest/Timid Nature
    - Earth Power
    - Focus Blast
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Rock Polish[/HIDE]

    Specially defensive Celebi remains a nice check being able to Perish Song to force a switch, Hit back a bit with Giga Drain and gain some HP while LO does it's work, Psychic can be used for damage. Gengar does pretty well as HP Ice is fairly weak. Mamoswine is an excellent revenge killer as is. Scizor has a chance to win depending on the damage roll. Jellicent can take hits and fight back with Scald/Ice Beam. Defensive Politoed works the same with Sp.D investment. Defensive Rotom-W also handles Lando-I well. Max HP Starmie wins 1 on 1 with no prior damage. Scarf Latios can take a hit and potentially KO with Surf or deal lots of damage with Draco. Specs Latios wins 1 on 1. Latias is basically the same. Band Dnite wins at max HP. Gyarados beats it, bulky or offensive. That's just to name a few to counter that set.

    The Scarf set is exponentially easier to counter and check (whether it be physical or special). A physical Sand Force set is a little more difficult to counter but a lot of the same counters/checks/revenge killers still remain. Looking at the usage statistics, http://stats.pokemon-online.eu/Wifi OU/645.html, the top 3 sets are the Special LO, Special Ebelt, and Scarf sets. Both Special sets are countered/checked by the same pokes and the Scarf set is significantly easier to deal with. Landorus is and always will be a threat. The reason it doesn't need to be suspected is the fact that many counters/checks/revenge killers are commonly run. Let's look at the statistics page again. The top 3 have sets that can beat Landorus. #4 beats Physical/Scarf Landorus. #'s 7, 10 ,11, and 12 all have sets to easily beat Landorus. #13 and 14 beat the Physical/Scarf set. #18 can handle the scarf set (bar HP Ice which Protect can handle). #23 and 24 can win with most of their sets. #25 can win if sashed and has HP Ice, and then we get to #28 Landorus-I. 14 pokes are used more than Lando-I and can beat it. In the rest of the top 40, 7 more Pokemon can beat it (Thundurus-T, Mamo, Celebi, Cloyster, Blissey, Conkeldurr, and Keldeo-R. Would add Jolteon but that's a bit of a stretch). 20 of the top 40 pokemon used in OU can beat Lando-I with at least one of their sets (not to mention the sets that will beat him are some of the more used sets). It's a simple matter of figuring out which set it is. From that point you can play it. Keeping potential checks/counters alive is the key.

    Sure it's a HUGE threat (we can list these all day in OU) but it is by no means worth banning.

    EDIT: I like CP and Princess Luna's posts. They know their stuff

    EDIT 2: Discussing teammates isn't the way to go in this thread (imo). It's solely about Lando-I. Discussing teammates could make everything broken.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2013
  10. Pridy

    Pridy Swerve.

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    I pretty much agree with what Raiza has said. The special attcker set just hits way too fucking hard right off the bat without any prior setup or having to be locked into choice. You can only really deal with lando-i by almost always having to fodder something first for either a) a bulky mon that can take one hit and hit back with a ohko attack (politoed) or b) something faster that can ohko it (latios keldeo). This is already very problematic for many OU teams.

    But it gets worse. Since landorus-i forces many switches and has decent bulk as well it can RP on the switch or just RP in the face of mons with relatively weak attacks or resists which ruins most of checks like keldeo as they will be outsped and ohkod with minor prior damage (rocks + SS is more than enough).

    As far as celebi and latias goes the u-turn 3 spec attacks is also very viable switch into scarf or cb tar which will trap both and the two are often found on the same team.

    EDIT: Gengar takes 30-40% from hp ice so it is a terrible check as ss + sr + LO racks up. Gyarados is stealth rock weak, has many flaws in the current meta, so it is also a rather meh check

    This isnt even mentioning that it has very viable physical sets in scarf and swords dance which will catch many stall teams off guard

    To the above post's EDIT 2: the fact that uturn forces you to go to another mon should be considered, and if you really think teammates arent a factor to banning pokemon please tell me why Manaphy is not OU
    It should be banned.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2013
  11. Maple Syrup

    Maple Syrup blessermans

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    Well there is the common "core" (Ttar+Keldeo+Landoris-I) that can hurt a lot of teams.

    I find that Landorus-I isn't as abusive of a Pokemon because it doesn't have the same typing as Genesect lets say. It can't switch in on a lot of common attacks like water or ice without taking a lot of damage. Also it resorts to using HP Ice a lot of the time and then BAM it's already in Scizor kill range because of LO.

    To succefully abuse Landorus-I you have to equip it with Sand and Rocks and checks to many of its more common counters. Such as Celebi or Latias.

    SpDef Rotom-W can easily dismantle the "core" however as Hydro hits Lando hard and ttar gets disabled by WoW.

    However I still think it has much reason to be banned. It hits like a truck and when it can pull of a rock polish it is usually GG. You just need those rocks to get a couple of clean kills. Lando also comes in onto Choice Scarf locked fighting moves and can set up and go berserk which are common.

    This one will be a tough ban because I don't think Landorus over centralizes the meta but it sure can break it. It all depends on if people start to use more of its checks.
     
  12. Laurel

    Laurel Well-Known Member

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    Here are some more calculations to show how Landorus I is completely metagame changing.

    252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 192 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 200-237 (54.2 - 64.22%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 237-281 (36.34 - 43.09%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Amoonguss: 195-230 (45.13 - 53.24%) -- 92.19% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 172+ SpD Gastrodon: 203-239 (47.65 - 56.1%) -- 83.98% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 220-259 (54.59 - 64.26%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    With a modest nature (which many people run) all of these become guaranteed 2HKOs with Stealth Rocks. The best Landorus check for stall is Cresselia, Cress is already not very viable in OU with all the U-turn and Tyranitar, because it can't moonlight with Sand. Thus, outside of checking Landorus it is really a hinderance to stall teams. Sure there's Celebi, but this thing is destroyed by U-turn, and Latias is just killed by Tyranitar, which Landorus is always with.

    I'm not saying Landorus is uncounterable, but it is completely over centralizing. Having gotten the suspect reqs on Smogon I can say on the Suspect ladder the amount of sun and stall teams increased drastically from the regular ladder with Landorus. It's just because Landorus is OU, you are forced to run a Latias on almost every team to beat it, or much priority.

    Therefore, because Landorus is OU, stall is pretty much unusable, because it is that overpowered.

    I also want to quote someone from the smogon suspect discussion thread if that is aloud.

    I know this is Pokemon-Online, and I would have said this myself, but I don't want to be stealing someone else's ideas. xD

    Also IMO, this is the best set.

    Landorus @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sheer Force
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Naive Nature
    - Earth Power
    - Focus Blast
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - U-turn

    Rock Polish is very good too, but many people have offensive teams, so it's /slightly/ harder to use as 2 priority hits can generally kill, but obviously, that's not with out losing a pokemon or two first. U-turn the instant momentum grabber, always putting you in an advantage.
     
  13. Sub Zero.

    Sub Zero. New Member

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    Reading through these posts a lot of people mentioned how Ice Shard from several Pokemon can OHKO Landorus quite easily, but we cannot forget that even neutral priority moves can do heavy damage due to Landorus' pitiful bulk. CB Scizor, the most common Pokemon and set in OU does over 50% with Bullet Punch, and although I'm not entirely sure, I assume that a Dragonite at full health can easily get off 1 Dragon Dance and proceed to KO Landorus. While I agree you'll probably lose a few Pokemon while taking out Landorus, the same can be said for many pokemon that people would never consider suspect. An interesting tidbit is it's usage.

    # 26 - Landorus-T (7.01 %)
    # 27 - Infernape (6.86 %)
    # 28 - Landorus (6.73 %)

    Although I don't know at which point these statistics were recorded, this shows that Landorus-I is actually lower in usage than Landorus-T and even Infernape who many consider to be a shadow of the pokemon it was in DPP.

    I do believe the Rock Polish set is by far it's most dangerous set, outspeeding scarf users at +2 but at the same time you have to be able to find a way to get that RP which is harder than some might think, having used Landorus-I in a team consisting of Conkeldurr, Reuniclus, Scizor, Dragonite, Rotom-W and Landorus-I, I can say that while very useful at times it was equally troubling, as without that Rock Polish boost it is outsped by the majority of Pokemon in OU and does not pose a such a threat that I feel it should be banned to Ubers.

    All things considered here are based on Special Attacker Landorus which I feel is it's most dangerous set.

    Any percentages give below are done with the assumption that Landorus is Modest

    A list of Pokemon that I think can take Landorus before the Rock Polish boost:

    Conkeldurr (With Ice Punch, unless Landorus carries Psychic which is unlikely, it takes maximum 91% from Earth Power)
    Infernape (Hidden Power Ice)
    Blissey & Chansey (Focus Blast does up to 47% on Blissey and I imagine less on Chansey.
    Jellicent (Specially Defensive set)
    Gyarados (Offensive sets are 2HKO'd by Psychic, meaning Gyarados can very easily take out Landorus with Waterfall.)
    Starmie (Outspeed and use Ice Beam)
    Rotom-W (Scarfed variant with Hidden Power Ice)
    Latios (Surf)
    Politoed (Scarf)
    Dragonite (At full health, can take Hidden Power Ice, set up and KO.)
    Keldeo (Outspeeds and can either Hydro Pump, Surf or HP Ice)

    Pokemon that can take Landorus after Rock Polish.

    Dragonite (See above.)
    Latios ^
    Gyarados ^
    Conkeldurr ^
    Latias ^
    Blissey & Chansey ^
    Jellicent ^
    Keldeo (Landorus has a 6.25% chance to OHKO Keldeo with Earth Power, so other than that Keldeo can defeat it.)

    In a nutshell, most Pokemon that Landorus can't OHKO can deal with it, and for that reason I don't feel it is worth Ubers residency.

    I say KEEP IT.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2013
  14. MewtwoHidden

    MewtwoHidden My Hax Makes Me Famous

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    All of the Calc's/Lists are asuming that SR/other hazards aren't up unless specified AND that Lando-I got a free Rock Polish

    Checks:
    -Scarf Keldeo assuming Rocks aren't up (Needs 8 HP Evs to guarantee it survives an Earth Power though)
    252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 8 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 84.3-99.69% 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    -Physically Defensive Chansey (After SR and if both Focus Blasts Hit for maximum damage then Chansey will faint In the process of Toxicing Landorus)
    252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP/4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 40.2-47.59% 3 Hits to KO

    -CB Dragonite (if rocks aren't up on Dragonite's side of the field)
    252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP/0 SpD Dragonite: 51.95-61.56%
    Dragonite does over 50% back with Extremespeed

    -Anything with Ice Shard (Weavile, Mamo, Abomasnow, etc.)

    -Politoed (Takes one hit and OHKO's back with Scald or Ice Beam)

    -Bronzong
    252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 88+ SpD Bronzong: 151-178 (44.67 - 52.66%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    (151, 152, 155, 156, 157, 160, 161, 164, 165, 166, 169, 170, 172, 174, 175, 178)

    -Rotom-W Specially defensive (Can take a Focus Blast and OHKO back with Hydro Pump assuming it hits)

    -Amoonguss (Can take an Epower and Spore it)

    -Offensive Latias

    -Gengar

    -Suicune

    -Thundurus-t

    -Any Tornadus with HP Ice or Specs Tornadus

    -Gothitelle (Scarf with HP Ice)

    -Meloetta
    0 SpA Meloetta Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Landorus: 144-171 (45.14 - 53.6%) -- 37.11% chance to 2HKO 2HKO after rocks
    252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Meloetta: 152-179 (37.62 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    Counters:
    -Gyarados
    252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 111-131 (31.44 - 37.11%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    -Specially Defensive Chansey and Chansey that invest in Both Defences rather than Defence and HP
    252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP/252 SpD Eviolite Chansey (+SpD): 29.55-35.09% 3-4 Hits to KO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP/252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 32.4-38.47% 3-4 Hits to KO

    -Specially Defensive Celebi ( Unless Lando-I carries U-Turn)
    -252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi: 133-159 (32.92 - 39.35%) -- 10.79% chance to 3HKO
    (133, 135, 138, 138, 140, 140, 143, 146, 146, 148, 148, 151, 153, 153, 156, 159)

    -Special Defensive Latias

    -Charizard
    252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard: 116-137 (39.05 - 46.12%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    (116, 118, 119, 120, 122, 123, 125, 126, 127, 129, 130, 131, 133, 134, 135, 137)

    -Slowking
    252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 56+ SpD Slowking: 181-214 (45.93 - 54.31%) -- 5.47% chance to 2HKO
    (181, 183, 185, 187, 188, 192, 195, 196, 199, 200, 203, 204, 207, 208, 211, 214)

    -Zapdos (Specially Defensive)
    252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 236+ SpD Zapdos: 146-172 (38.12 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    (146, 146, 148, 151, 151, 153, 156, 156, 159, 161, 161, 164, 166, 166, 169, 172)

    -Cresselia
    252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 88-105 (19.81 - 23.64%) -- possible 6HKO
    120 SpA Cresselia Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Landorus: 106-126 (33.22 - 39.49%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO

    Shedinja (If Sand/Hail or Rocks are not up)
    Lando = Walled Mercilessly


    This is the list that me and Lance came up with, A lot of the counters are rarely/never used But we included anything that we thought of. I personally don't care if Lando-I was banned but if I were I asked I'd say it isn't broken.
     
  15. Masonthechef

    Masonthechef New Member

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    I made a comment about this in a related post on facebook some time ago; Sheer Force Landorus-I does have a flaw outside simulators that makes him much more predictable, Namely that in order to have the ability it has to be caught in the Dream Radar game, which forces all catches into the PC to be set to Dream Balls. Likewise the lack of event/DW Landorus also keeps Sand force variants from being legally caught in Dream Balls. This basically provides a tag as soon as it enters play to which ability Landorus-I is running, and since each ability is heavily biased to which type of set Landorus-I runs it provides a strong method of checking him. While this does not terribly reduce Landours effectiveness in OU it should be considered an option before voting to suspect/ban him.

    Basically the question I'm brining is. If Landorus-I Abilities become fully predictable would it still be worth the suspect status?
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2013
  16. Blitzamirin

    Blitzamirin Waluigi! Number one!

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    Blitz
    Why would it? The sets that make Landorus overpowered in the first place have Sheer Force as the ability. Sand Force sets are rarely used because of this.

    Oh, and whoever pointed out that Landorus-I is rather low in usage - keep in mind that Smogon banned Landorus-I already, and in the past, this decision is reflected in the usage stats (which shouldn't be used as an argument anyways; see Blaziken, Deo-N, Gothitelle, Liepard...). Oh, and Stealth Rock? Account for it in both scenarios; not only in Landorus-I's case.

    I agree with Laurel. Rock Polish doesn't put this thing over the edge: it's U-turn. Yes, you are taking around ~22% net damage per switch, but the Landorus-I user can wear down its "checks" and ultimately destroy them. I say "checks" because apparently people believe the check is already in before the Landorus-I does anything.


     
  17. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    I just want to say that I've seen a lot of people discounting the fact that Ice Shards and other Ice moves are everywhere in OU. It's -very much- a factor that affects Landorus' effectiveness in the tier - much more than things like Garchomp which can take any Ice move easier than it. It is absolutely not something to discount that a majority of teams run a minimum of a handful of moves that simply OHKO Landorus. I'm seeing plenty of people saying [X] can't switch in to Landorus, but what things can Landorus switch in to?

    I'm also extremely tired of these suspect discussions that involve just saying "it can 2hko things and U-turn on its counters, ban it". Like I've been saying for months, that applies to things like Jirachi, we gonna ban that too? Can we please get some more nuance on the discussion than this because I don't want to see yet another pokemon get banned off stupid crap. We're so busy talking about how it 2hkos everything and U-turns on Celebi or whatever that we're completely ignoring Landorus' actual situation in tier. Landorus has passable bulk, often relies on moves that give it LO recoil, is moderately easy to inflict with status and has common weaknesses and 2 useful immunities - so switching it in and keeping it alive for a majority of the game can be very easy or very difficult, depending on the team you're facing. It realistically only runs about 3 sets at most, even though people like to talk about a million moves it -can- but generally won't run. The difference in the sets is marked enough that different pokemon will counter different sets, though it is not very hard to find out what set it is it definitely has mild initial surprise value.

    And seriously let's not go full on Smogon here and have whole, super eloquent sounding paragraphs complete with calcs that essentially say "Landorus can use U-Turn, the appropriate coverage move, a boosting move, and switch in without taking damage, all at the same time, risk free".

    Posing these questions as a way of getting more discussion rather than suggesting it might be broken or not broken. I'll be back with my opinion on that later.
     
  18. Sinclair

    Sinclair Call me the Pokemon Demigod

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    First off, I'd like to point out to all those using Timid in their calcs that the best set and the most common set uses Modest. Now that we have that out of the way I don't believe that Lando is game breaking because it does have checks/counters that are very viable in the meta. Also, don't use the excuse that Lando/Ttar combo is common because if it NEEDS another poke to ko its checks and counters then imo it shouldn't be deemed broken. So I don't think that Lando-I is meta breaking however, I do believe that with Lando gone it improves the meta. This will be a difficult suspect but I will probably vote ban because as i stated before it improves the metagame.


    TL;DR - Lando-I isn't broken but if banned it will improve the meta.
     
  19. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    I had a bit of time to think about Lando-I, even though I see Landorus-T far more often in the metagame. If you think about what's common, Landorus-I is not that big of a threat and even if it were banned, it wouldn't do anything beneficial to the metagame. Right now, as we know, Rain and Sand are the most common weathers/strategies. Sand, as I remember anyway, will sometimes carry Gastrodon along with a Rotom-W, easily capable of beating Landy with its bulk and Will-O-Wisp for the physical set and Hydro Pump for both, respectively. As for rain, there's plenty of Pokémon capable of shooting it down, including (but not limited to) Azumarill, Volcarona after a Quiver Dance, and Thundurus-T after an Agility. As also said in this thread, Bronzong walls Landorus to hell and back. Let's also not forget all the ice users in this metagame.

    Now, for the consequences for if it were to be banned. Sand will be become slightly less useful, possibly spiking up usage in Sun teams. In my opinion, these guys are a little overpowered as is. Double STAB or not, Venusaur becomes a monster once it gets a pocketful of sunshine and can easily take out anything from a rain or sand team, given the sun's out.

    In sum, my feeling is that if this gets banned, Sun will become a bit overpowered as a result of sand dropping, thus I feel like we need to keep it (Landorus-I) in OU.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2013
  20. Blitzamirin

    Blitzamirin Waluigi! Number one!

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    The thread's tags should speak for themselves at this point.

    Sand won't receive that impact you're talking about, and Sun becoming overpowered is just bullshit (Venusaur is fantastic though).

    Gastrodon is uncommon as sin, and even then cannot switch in reliably on it (because it is outsped and thus dies). Rotom-W is a shaky check that falls to Focus Blast, and if I was the Rotom-W user, I would be Hydro Pumping it to oblivion instead of trying to burn it. Azumarill, Volcarona (what), and Thundurus-T can't switch in reliably (the latter 2 are SR weak, and the former is ok with Aqua Jet). You cannot assume that Landorus-I will switch in after these Pokemon set up, because then it would have a myriad of checks. Ice users in this metagame are limited to anti-meta Mamoswine and rare Cloyster with the even rarer Ice Shard.

    Sun has no relevance in this scenario, because Venusaur's performance isn't hampered by Landorus-I alone. Sand will still be good regardless if the thing is banned.
     
  21. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    I'm not saying they'd switch in, just what would beat it. Simple point of my post is that there's plenty to beat it/stops it from sweeping and thus shouldn't be banned, but that's just me. And the Sun scenario was theoretical to be fair.
     
  22. ZoroDark

    ZoroDark i know everything

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    Rayquaza is weak to Ice too, should we drop that?

    On a more serious note, Landorus-I really only runs 2 sets nowadays. I'll start off with the Rock Polish set. It may not break defensive teams as easy as it does when it opts to carry U-turn, but it gains the ability to outspeed literally everything. Its main STAB OHKOs even moderately bulky pokes such as Scizor and Keldeo after Stealth Rocks. HP Ice trashes the Flying pokes that resist it, while Focus Blast 2HKOs even Rotom-W's who are fully invested in Specially Defense. Offensive pokes such as Latios, Rotom-W, Politoed, Gengar and Gyarados can all take one hit and retaliate, but there easy to wear down throughout the course of a match. Odds are they won't be able to live a hit in the endgame (which is the only time Landorus should show its 4th move). Considering the huge amount of checks, and even solid counters in Celebi and Latias, I don't think this is the set that makes Landorus-I broken.

    Alright, moving on to the U-Turn set. If anything, this is the set that really pushes Landorus over the edge for me. As mikedawg said (in Laurel's post), it turns sure fire counters into shaky checks who have a 50% shot at getting killed. Landorus loses just 10% if it mispredicts. The difference between Landorus and other U-Turners is that they lack a move that's as easy to spam and that does as much damage as Landorus-I. Balanced and Defensive teams don't have reliable ways to beat this set, especially if it's paired with a Pursuit user like Tyranitar or Scizor. It's not necessarily broken, but its effect on the metagame is just really unhealthy. You're forced to run the same 2 or 3 pokes on every team to check Keldeo and Landorus, which is one of the reasons this metagame is frowned upon by many.

    As far as the whole "priority beats it" argument goes, same thing goes for Deoxys-A. Also lol at the thread tags.
     
  23. bboy omni

    bboy omni New Member

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    U turn is rather waste of it's sweeping power,sure it can get surprise ko's,but it can't sweep on it's own,if anything rock polish is the only reason worth suspecting ,but even then there are quite a few checks,including priorities,and being weak to ice shard does matter even if some people try to ignore it.

    I say It should stay ou.
     
  24. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    I'll stick to the opinion that the 2 most used sets are Special + U-Turn and Special + RP. The physical set is significantly easier to counter, even in sand. However, the unpredicability might cost you your counter, as most specially defensive Pokemon don't like switching in to a U-Turn backed by Attack EVs. All calculations below don't include SR damage, so keep that in mind.

    If we look at last set's counters, it virtually has none as everything gets 2HKO'd with a bit of prior damage (Chansey, Blissey). Bronzong is good, but is barely seen in OU (2.40% usage). It takes a nice amount of damage from Focus Blast too (44.67 - 52.66%), so will get 2HKO'd if it's not at full health. Celebi takes 32.92 - 39.35% from HP ice and can't outspeed Lando so is also taken out if it's below 65% health. Furthermore, if you encounter a U-Turn set, you'll most likely lose your counter as U-Turn does over 70% damage. The fact that Lando-I is usually partnered with TTar/Scizor to take out [email protected] and Celebi doesn't help either. Rotom-W takes 47.82 - 56.52% from a Focus Blast, which means it can't switch in (that is, if Focus Blast manages to hit twice). However, it lacks reliable recovery and can be worn down easily throughout the match.

    Priority in the form of Ice Shard obviously deals with it, but every trainer with a bit of intelligence will switch out Landorus if they see anything carrying said move. Scizor's Bullet Punch does 55.48 - 65.2%, but Landorus isn't that likely to pick up residual damage as it's immune to Spikes, Toxic Spikes and Sandstorm, while its ability prevents it from racking up LO recoil. In return, Lando's Earth Power deals over 80% to standard CB Scizor, most likely OHKO'ing it as Scizor is prone to racking up SR/hazard damage.

    In my opinion, it deserves to be banned as the list of counters is too small, while the checks can be dealt with easiliy. Its ability + movepool + unpredicability definitely make it a force too centralising in OU.


    EDIT: To everyone saying you need to run Ice Shard nowadays; checking Dragon Types can be done with other methods too. Making Ice Shard 'mandatory' on your team to deal with Lando-I is overcentralising the metagame, if I'm correct.
     
  25. Blitzamirin

    Blitzamirin Waluigi! Number one!

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    No.

    Even anti-ban arguments point to U-turn, which is the thing that makes Landorus-I what it is, not Rock Polish. Yes you forgo the ability to "sweep", but have fun seeing threats tank one of your hits and KO in return. RP is by no means bad, but it is certainly less dangerous than U-turn.

    "Being weak to Ice Shard does matter even if some people choose to ignore it." Tell me which common Ice Shard user can come in with impunity and kill Landorus-I. From the top of my head, only Mamoswine makes the cut, and it is better off revenging it, which means the genie has already done its job.
     
  26. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    I think Landorus is pretty much comparable to Terrakion and I believe that neither are overpowered. Landorus doesn't have a great dual-stab like Terrakion (in fact, it's best flying-type move is Fly >.>). Furthermore, Landorus can be easily outsped by Keldeo/Terrakion/Infernape/[email protected]/Garchomp/Gengar as well as many common scarfers. There are also many pokemon that can take a hit from it and hit back hard, like Rotom-W, Jellicent and Ferrothorn. Basically all you need to do is get some damage off as it sets up Rock Polish and kill it with Scizor's Bullet Punch >.>

    Sure, Landorus is a threat but so are many pokemon in OU like Scarf Keldeo and Specs Latios. If you lack a good counter to either you're basically screwed but that's just how it goes. It's definitely not overcentralizing like Sawk in NU or Chandelure in UU. That's why Landorus should stay OU in my opinion.
     
  27. Blitzamirin

    Blitzamirin Waluigi! Number one!

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    Secondary STAB doesn't matter when you hit like a truck and have amazing coverage (unlike Terrakion, who was a monster in BW1 by virtue of its STABs alone, and I'm not even mentioning its bland movepool). Yes, it is outsped by all those Pokemon, but only Latias can reliably switch in.

    Jellicent and Ferrothorn are 2HKO'ed, while Rotom-W has to hope for a miss in order to kill it with Hydro Pump. You also cannot assume that the Landorus-I will Rock Polish right off the bat, because in the event that you mispredict, you will lose momentum and a Pokemon.

    And if you don't at least believe that Landorus-I is overcentralizing, there is something wrong with teambuilding.
     
  28. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    I'm sorry for not recognizing other posts, but I am just going to state my point of view for now!

    Landorus-I now has access to Sheer Force as a Dream World ability which was released at the start of Black and White Two. With Sheer Force, a whole new world of options opened up on the Special Attacking end. Landorus-I uses the Special Attacking moves Earth Power, Focus Blast, and Hidden Power [Ice] which compliment each other relitively well. With these three moves, Latias, Chansey/Blissey, Gyarados, and Bulky Celebi are the main checks / counters to Landorus-I. Although these are all decently common and viable Pokemon in the metagame, Landorus-I has the ability to adapt to threats like Latias and Celebi with U-turn (or faster threats with Rock Polish on its common sweeper set.) Overall, Landorus-I has groundbreaking power with Life Orb, Sheer Force, Base 115 SAtk, and its versatile coverage (especially if you include U-turn off of high base 125 Attack.) Additionally, this ground / flying powerhouse has base 101 speed which is lovely on the current metagame since it outspeeds a plethora of common threats like Breloom, Volcarona, Rotom-W, and all of the weather inducers if they aren't scarfed.

    Furthermore, [TL;DR] I am going to say that Landorus-I is broken because it lacks sure fire counters and is overwhelmingly powerful with Sheer Force.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2013
  29. ZodiaK

    ZodiaK Get the fuck off my porch

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    It's checks are few with the newer acquired destructive sheer force set easily being able to run sub + 3 attacks, RP + 3 attacks, or 3 attacks + uturn which still doesn't stop it from running it's old scarf/e-belt sand force sets with the u-turning abusing shenanigans it did before but now it can also do that with it's new moveset.

    #banishtotheshadowrealm
     
  30. victini493

    victini493 New Member

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    Here are some calcs with Landorus-I




    252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Jellicent: 179-212 (44.3 - 52.47%) -- 84.38% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock


    252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Rotom-W: 155-183 (51.15 - 60.39%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 260-307 (39.87 - 47.08%) -- 1.95% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 286-338 (40.62 - 48.01%) -- 64.45% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock


    As you can see, little can switch into it. [email protected] are easily trapped by Tyranitar, Scizor and Weavile, provided you can double switch, or even just sacrifice Keldeo or Landorus to allow an auto-pilot system that allows one of the two to sweep. For this reason I chose not to put them listed. The U-Turn set is by no means too slow to do its job, as it outspeeds Breloom and Lucario with 176 Spe. Base 100 Pokemon rarely carry max speed, as they are almost required to be invested in defenses. Rather than aiming to sweep, it allows Scarfed Keldeo, SD/Fight Gem Breloom, or anything else that may have an issue with Celebi, to power through teams once it is weakened. U-Turn can pass momentum off to something like Terrakion, Lucario, Breloom, ect, meaning that the pink blobs can constantly be lured in and taking Stealth Rock, and even Sandstorm damage while your opponent is forced to predict carefully. It also has solid defenses for a sweeper, allowing it to only be 2HKOd by Scald from Jellicent/Slowking, not factoring in the extra EVs in HP for Rock Polish variants. The physical sets, which aren't quite as viable, due to having more counters than the special sets still can be used to lure in Blissey and Chansey in and attack them with a +2 Life Orb Sand Force Earthquake. Given that this is not common, it is still a possibility, and retains versatility, much like Genesect. Counters to Landorus-I are existent, but not one Pokemon can counter both physical and special sets, bar Cresselia and Special Defensive Bronzong. Revenge killing is an option, however I would like to hear what else you might say other than "it's weak to Ice Shard and Aqua Jet". On that note, I think it would be best for the metagame if it were banned.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2013
  31. pokemoniseasy

    pokemoniseasy Member

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    Ok, So Lando-I being suspected hmm In my opinion Lando-I is not broken any way shape or form Lando-I has many counters. Me and MewtwoHidden came up with a list of Lando-I's checks and counters. Listed here: http://piratepad.net/Lando-i. However if placed with Tyranitar and Keldeo they can get rid of each other checks and counters. To be honest I really do not think Lando-I should be suspected AT ALL. If this ban were to take place I would say ban the ability sheer force not the pokemon cause the pokemon itself is not broken at all.
     
  32. Blitzamirin

    Blitzamirin Waluigi! Number one!

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    Your friend posted this list already, and I responded to it here. Lando-I does not have many counters; it has a very limited number of them (for example, Celebi and Latias, and then there's U-turn).

    Suspecting the ability? There's Darmanitan, Conkeldurr, Nidoking, Nidoqueen and Tauros. Are they all broken with this ability? No, they aren't. Landorus is the issue here.
     
  33. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    I think people are forgetting how much can actually take a hit and KO Landorus-I or severely dent it to a point where LO will be it's demise (for the LO & RP sets) and the Expert Belt set is even easier because it generally lacks RP.
     
  34. ThePikaBloo

    ThePikaBloo New Member

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    Im inclined to agree. Theoretically a lot of stuff can take Lando-I on but practically nothing switches into it safely as it always has a move to deal with most of its switch ins as in u-turn for celebi and latias. I dont need to explain how broken the RP set is once its set up meaning that scarfers cant come in to revenge it once it has set up a RP. The fact that Lando-I can go physical and bluff a special set with Life Orb HP Ice to bait in special walls and smash them with EQ or appropiate stab. Lando's base 101 speed and ability to go mixed is what pushes it over as landorus's scarf set is IMO one of the best scarfers around and its abilities add to its cause with Sand Force giving physical set the power of life orb in sand and Sheer Force boosting up the special set.

    The special set is arguably the broken one of its sets with either RP or U-Turn+3 Atks (not taking anything away from the physical set) with focus blast 2HKO'ing even Blissey. Another quality of landorus which differenciates it from other sweepers/scarfers is its flying typing which while giving it nothing offensively gives it a handy immunity to Spikes and Toxic Spikes and it also can't get paralysed meaning its speed cannot be dropped using status. Landorus also has decent defenses such that CB Scizor fails to OHKO the modest RP set while doing about 50-60%. Thus it doesn't take a tactical genius to figure out that Lando-I is not healthy for the OU metagame.

    I dont need to explain how broken the RP set is once its set up meaning that scarfers cant come in to revenge it once it has set up a RP.
     
  35. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    Do we seriously need to go over how many other things in the tier also have nothing that can switch into it? Because that's the entirety of every argument for banning it I've seen here.
     
  36. Weiss

    Weiss Member

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    It's really good but a lot of pokemon check it with ice moves being everywhere and its speed being mediocre among the attacking squad. The rock polish set is a very good way to remedy that but that can be said of any pokemon that tries to set up, which is still had in this meta, though slightly more doable then before.

    I'm not sure where this got the suspect discussion, there're a lot more threatening pokemon out there despite being very strong. I could see it being uber in another environment. As of now...

    Keep it.
     
  37. bboy omni

    bboy omni New Member

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    Actually,it's common sense that RP is the most dangerous set,inexperienced or careless players may fall to u turn,but even then it's only because surprised,also, the idea of 4 moves koing anything apply to a lot more pokemon like dragonite (running eq and fire punch both takes out all steels) and that it can keep momentum with it makes it broken is also invalid because a lot of threatening sweepers can use it,but it's less useful than rock polish.

    And you say mamo can't switch in,it can switch in hp ice if predcted well,otherwise same applies for latios as it has almost no switch ins,same for Thundrus T,because it can ohko the whole ou with the right move. except chansey/bliseey which gets volt switched out,and very shaky latios/latias.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2013
  38. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    I don't think we need to ban Landorus-I. While it may only have 2 weaknesses, they are both to very common attacking types. As said before, virtually every team has a Pokémon with Ice moves, and Rain teams are also very common. While it does have a handy 2 immunities, the only really useful resistance it has is Fighting (and even then powerful Fighting moves will still take a chunk of its health). It also isn't very bulky, so switching it in in the first place is a hard job. True, it doesn't have any rock solid counters or 100% safe switch ins. But to be fair, that's the case for many OU Pokémon. If having no safe counters/switch ins made a Pokémon broken, we'd have banned Hydreigon, Dragonite, Latios, Terrakion and Haxorus by now (before you say Skarmory, Skarmory is 2HKOd by a +2 Aqua Tail in Rain).

    Here are several good checks to special Landorus (the most common set):

    Specially defensive Celebi - HP Ice only 3HKOs, while it can force it out with Perish Song (needs to watch out for U-Turn though)
    Bulky Politoed - survives Earth Power, OHKOs with Ice Beam
    Bulky Dragon Dance Gyarados - can switch in providing it's at full HP, survive anything and OHKO back with Waterfall
    Defensive Jellicent - see Politoed
    Chansey - Earth Power and HP Ice barely scratch it, while Focus Blast is only a 3HKO. Meanwhile it can Toxic stall Landorus out with Wish and Protect.
    Latios - Survives HP Ice, OHKOs back with Surf/Draco Meteor. It can't switch in though and has to be wary of U-Turn
    Offensive Latias - Much the same as her brother

    Since it has plenty of viable checks, I say Keep It. Why am I bothering though? Smogon banned it, so the mods here probably will. It isn't broken, but hey, when did that ever stop anyone?
     
  39. Luck>Skill

    Luck>Skill Well-Known Member

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    what people seem to fail to comprehend is how centralizing landorus is to all of the playstyles

    if you are building ho, you are forced to bring one of the latwins just to have a chance to not get raped by rp, and if its uturn / has cbtar support then you better have a gyarados (that is a bad offensive check as SR and hp ice 2HKO it), and you can't use your scarfers to full efficiency (as they might become setup field for landorus), I mean, Landorus can take a non banded Outrage for Garchomp, RP up and sweep, it's quite bulky and it has plenty options to set up

    and no, ice shard doesn't deal with landorus, in the first place, you know, you are supposed to get the ice shard user in (and no ice shard user can switch directly into landorus, as EP OHKOs all of them, you'd need to pivot around it luring the hp ice to send in mamoswine / weavile, and risk being predicted, taking a lot of SR + attack damage in the process, plus landorus can simply switch out from the ice shard user

    in the second place, you'd need STAB on ice shard to actually OHKO landorus (donphan does around 60% iirc), and aqua jet is unseen in OU bar the super rare Azumarill and Sharpedo, that aren't even OU by usage (lolaquajetdragonite)

    balanced / stall need a) a celebi b) a chansey / bliss, celebi loses to uturn and lolsludgewave (who runs that?), is a free switch for every single landorus common teammate (volcarona garchomp uturnzor tornadus ddnite etc), while chanbliss lost their usefulness in OU long time ago, especially since fightspam teams are everywhere and are very strong (average team being terrak breloom keldeo landorus [email protected] ttar) and chansey loses from SR + sand + switchbacks (100% - 13 for rocks -6 for sand = 81%, landorus user switches to fighting type, chansey is forced out, next time its too low to take blast + ep, if focus blast hits that is), LO latias is fantastic for balance and all but I already talked about the latwins problem

    specially bulky resttalk gyarados is a good poke per se, taking on hpelecless keldeo, volcarona, landorus etc but SR + sand/hail make it a shaky check at best, and could be considered a check to the special set, same for zapdos, they both suffer from the things I mentioned above

    I mean, people run BP sdef celebi to not lose to landotar, and since cbtar 2HKOs the whole of OU you can just stone edge on celebi's face and still do be a winner, also celebi is most likely supposed to check other stuff other than landorus, which means that SR + residual damage will bring it in KO range eventually

    landorus doesn't require smart play or prediction, thanks to its decent bulk (for such a powerful sweeper), absurd damage output and the ease he sets up RP with (as mentioned above, survives garchomps outrage, obviously priority then kills it, bpunch from scizor etc but you've lost garchomp and had to revenge kill, take one extra round of SR on Scizor, and landorus can switch out and you locked yourself in bpunch)

    and instead of "a lot of other pokes do the same so why are we banning this", well, their time will come....................or was supposed to come ^-^ (I'll do you guys a favour and say what to ban next: ban kyurem-b, like seriously wtf is that doing in OU)
     
  40. Dånte

    Dånte Member

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    Ferligatr is seen in much higher frequency at higher ladder play. Espeed and Bullet Punch which are common deal significant damage to Landorus
     
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