Hello PO Forums! [secret]For starters, I would like to discuss Landorus as a whole throughout theses nearing 3 years of WiFi OU metagame. For this I have made a handy timeline (of sorts) for Landorus ranked usage stats and the relevant changes that occurred though out the metagame for me to reference in my short introductory narrative. This timeline and narrative can be found below in the hidden tab. Spoiler 2010 Oct 6.11% 2010 Nov MISSING ALL DATA 2010 Dec 4.74% 2011 Jan 4.91% 2011 Feb 4.56% 2011 Mar 4.23% 2011 Apr 3.9954% • Introduction of Ranked Usage Statistics 2011 May 4.74691% 2011 June 4.74691% 2011 July 4.94336% 2011 Aug 4.29076% 2011 Sept 5.31971% 2011 Oct 6.59619% • Excadrill was banned from Smogon 2011 Nov 6.78668% 2011 Dec 8.07761% • PO Banned Excadrill 2012 Jan 11.0338% 2012 Feb 10.7976% 2012 Mar 11.0414% 2012 Apr 11.0132% 2012 May 11.3488% 2012 June 10.9395% • Sand Force - 99.66 % (116368 battles) • Sheer Force - 0.34 % (399 battles) • BW2 Release 2012 July 6.4818% • Sand Force - 89.65 % (3812 battles) • Sheer Force - 10.35 % (440 battles) 2012 Aug 9.96751% • Sand Force - 66.92 % (27502 battles) • Sheer Force - 33.08 % (13596 battles) 2012 Sept 12.5216% • Sand Force - 51.90 % (84115 battles) • Sheer Force - 48.10 % (77964 battles) 2012 Nov 10.948% • Sheer Force - 56.14 % (66445 battles) • Sand Force - 43.86 % (51912 battles) 2012 Dec 9.77117% • Sheer Force - 56.97 % (54018 battles) • Sand Force - 43.03 % (40808 battles) 2013 Jan 9.02339% • Sheer Force - 56.26 % (56840 battles) • Sand Force - 43.74 % (44182 battles) 2013 Feb 8.83594% • Sheer Force - 56.30 % (63575 battles) • Sand Force - 43.70 % (49345 battles) 2013 Mar 9.45388% • Sheer Force - 60.24 % (69626 battles) • Sand Force - 39.76 % (45958 battles) 2013 Apr 8.83586% • Sheer Force - 59.96 % (46310 battles) • Sand Force - 40.04 % (30928 battles) 2013 May 9.52073% • Sheer Force - 64.46 % (63183 battles) • Sand Force - 35.54 % (34834 battles) 2013 June 9.2095% • Sheer Force - 63.92 % (50074 battles) • Sand Force - 36.08 % (28265 battles) 2013 July 9.3049% • Sheer Force - 63.42 % (46162 battles) • Sand Force - 36.58 % (26629 battles) Landorus had a less than stellar debut into the new WiFi OU tier. He started out as one of the more overlooked Pokemon, being nearly completely outclassed for a team spot by Excadrill. As a result he saw very little usage and within the first month of Ranked Usage Statistics, Landorus fell to UU. After rising back up to OU ranks in July (May and June usage statistics were combined), Landorus barely held on to his OU status with relatively no change. Then Excadrill got banned on Smogon in October of 2011. PO saw a steady rise in Landorus usage until it maintained ~11% usage shortly after PO banned Excadrill. He fit well into the VolTurn metagame and stayed a key player in shaping the tier. His usage remained steadily around the 11% for the coming months. Then came along BW2 and the new Therian Formes in June of 2012. Landorus-I took backseat to Landorus-T that month as all the users tested out all the new changes brought forth by the new game, only reaching a mere 6.4818%. It's usage was quick to bounce back and reached ~10% usage in August. August also marks the beginning of widespread usage of Sheer Force. Slowly but surely, Sheer Force usage climbed and eventually took the lead as the preferred ability on Landorus-I. Ranked usage statistics started averaging ~9%, Sheer Force became the preferred ability (with a roughly 2:1 ratio for the past 3 months) and that is where we stand today as his suspect discussion thread comes to an open.[/HIDE] With that out of the way, I would like to make 3 proposals for the Landorus-I discussion. PROPOSITION 1:My first proposal is that we have the option to exclude Sand Force Landorus-I from the suspect discussion and make this discussion and potential vote solely about Sheer Force Landorus-I. In other words, I am proposing a complex ban. The reasons for this is twofold. Further Regarding Complex Bans in hidden tab: Spoiler Why not change? The general rule has been that complex bans should not happen. But what is a simple ban? We ban Items. We ban Abilities. We ban Formes. Are all of these simple bans? Items Only one item has been banned from PO, Soul Dew. Why was Soul Dew banned? It didn't make Tyranitar, Politoed, Scizor, Dragonite or almost any other Pokemon too powerful when they held Soul Dew. It only made Latios and Latias too powerful. In this case, the ban was the best interest for the metagame. A simple banning of one item allowed two very important Pokemon in the OU tier to remain OU. Were banning item(s) simple? Abilties Three abilities have been banned; Moody, Sand Veil, and Snow Cloak. Moody was banned outright as a whole from all tiers including Ubers. This ability had some contention even in the suspect as to whether or not it broke Ubers. Overall though, it was an ability that with luck that had the potential to make all 7 users nearly undefeatable. Overall I support the ban as it would have more than likely resulted in Smeargle's (an important member of Baton Pass teams and a possible dedicated lead) ban from WiFi OU. The Sand Veil and Snow Cloak were banned from WiFi OU. These abilities were weather reliant and allowed them to avoid getting it. Of the users, there was only one main abuser used at the time, Gliscor. As for Mamoswine and Froslass, the other two users, there was heavy contention as to whether or not they were actually broken with the said abilities. And the most threatening Sand Veil Pokemon, Garchomp had already been banned, mostly due to the ability to abuse Sand Veil. In the end, the community decided to support a complete ban of weather dependent evasion abilities and the eventual return of Garchomp WiFi OU. Were banning abilities simple? Formes We have been dividing Pokemon based on their Formes for quite a while. Formes can have a variety of differences; movepools (Rotom, Keldeo, and Kyurem), base statistics (Deoxys, Rotom, Tornadus, Thundurus, Landorus, and Kyurem), Abilities (Tornadus, Thundurus, Landorus, and Kyurem), and typing (Rotom). They each have their own usage statistic and some are banned from or dropped into specific tiers depending on their Forme. But they all share the same Pokedex. Having Multiples on a team still violates the species clause. In the case of suspect and banning, we are looking at a part of a Pokemon while ignoring the rest. Were banning of Formes simple? Closing Remarks I feel that what was done in the above mentioned situations was perfectly fine. I especially feel that in regards to the Item, Formes, and the unmentioned SS+Drizzle bans, we have come to the results that benefit the metagame. In the case of Abilities I feel Moody was a smart move, but I feel like some users might have been forced to vote Mamoswine and Froslass being broken with the ability as well in order to remove Gliscor's Sand Veil and allow Garchomp to drop back down. But as a whole, aren't all these bans complex bans?[/HIDE] Proposition 1: Complex Ban Reason 1 Here on the forums, the consensus is that Sand Force is strong, but in relatively no way broken. This topic is a prime example as well, nearly all prior posts solely discuss Sheer Force Landorus-I with very little mention of Sand Force other than it is manageable. And normally that is all that we could reference. Spoiler [/HIDE] What I have above in that hidden tab is the screenshot of the ladder rankings of the top 80 player of WiFi OU at 2013-07-24 at 00:30:00 US Central Time. I chose to ask as many of those 80 players if they thought that Sand Force Landorus-I was any way broken in the Wifi OU tier. Out of those 80, I amazingly was able to receive a response from 52. Of the 52 I managed to contact, 50 said that No Sand Force Landorus-I was not broken in any way. 1 person said that they were not sure. And 1 person said they would not share their opinion and became cross about it. In addition to those top 80 players, I decided to ask other notable figures in the PO community. These users were Captian, Harlott, Hugo, Key, Marth, Meh, Sadfthadsf, TFL, Terrorghoul/Gilgamesh, and ZodiaK. Of those 10 users, all but 2 users stated a strong not broken stance. Harlott said theoretically it was possible, but in practice more than likely not. Zodiak replied with a maybe and problems regarding tiering/suspect discussions which lead to how he thought the metagame should be. Those were the all but two responses. What I have below is a list of individuals arranged by who whether or not they were contacted and what their views were if they were contacted. Also, the duplicate alts that I knew of were also pointed out there. If there is a question of the authenticity of my claims, I will be more than happy to provide screen shots of the PM's in question. Spoiler Ladder Votes Not Broken Votes -Snorlax- Lelouch v Britannia [Aura] Electro• Smores Elyis -Rizkybest9- Liked [IMP]Addax Tell Your World [EG]Cyberodin Shinji Kagawa Litleo[Test] [EG]DarkSora Gligargoyle [Hero]Litleo .Dizzy Crying Lightning Opjqy LTB2 [IND]2 Chainz. Dånte Hypervortex9 Litleo Swinubstep Møhican HuntingZombies Pancham HappyTerrakion Sun Bro Ohmachi Poke Ninja Jay-Stylee #Pr0|.Lance BS England Corumba TestingAlt. Lonely Swan [TD]Auros Jon Jones BaseBallPlaya12 Ultimoh [Aura]TheMage111 F_17 [IDM]Tox Saammyy Affa Likedd Fabio Caressa [Aura] Maxwolf Jorgen Refused Comment/Not Sure Cacadevaca LetsOU Other Players Vote Not Broken Captain Hugo Key Marth Meh Sadfthadsf Terrorghoul/Gilgamesh Theoretically Yes, but Practically No Harlott Maybe ZodiaK [/HIDE] Proposition 1: Complex Ban Reason 2 Sand Force Landorus-I still retains 36.58% of Landorus-I Unranked Usage Statistic. Sand Force Landorus-I would continue to hold an important and valuable space in the metagame independent of Landorus-T. Sand Force Landorus-I would function as a more powerful option to Landorus-T with Sand Force boosted attacks and a higher base special statistic. And most importantly, the higher base speed statistic of Landorus-I lets it function as a better revenge killer and offensive threat. It would widely be able to perform all of the same rolls it did in BW1 with the added addition of a few tricks such as SR and being able to check Landorus-T. All the old walls to Sand Force still exist and are in the metagame. And with the introduction of BW2, new checks and revenge killers also exist (Keldeo and others). PROPOSITION 2: My second proposal is that we have the option to ban the ability Sheer Force itself from the WiFi OU tier instead. The reason for this is threefold. Proposition 2: Ban Sheer Force Reason 1 INCOMPLETE: Define Relevant Sheer Force Pokemon and their statistics. Relevant: Landorus Conkeldurr Darminitan Nidoking Spoiler Landorus 9.3049 56595 Sheer Force - 63.42 % (46162 battles) Conkeldurr 5.99463 36461 Sheer Force - 8.57 % (4780 battles) Darmanitan 1.46097 8886 Sheer Force - 8.57 % (4780 battles) Nidoking 1.05668 6427 Sheer Force - 81.03 % (12861 battles) Druddigon 0.353979 2153 Sheer Force - 16.19 % (706 battles) Steelix 0.22097 1344 Sheer Force - 9.13 % (662 battles) Tauros 0.140572 855 Sheer Force - 55.84 % (1410 battles) Rampardos 0.110321 671 Mold Breaker - 50.07 % (1815 battles) Hariyama 0.101113 615 Sheer Force - 17.26 % (540 battles) Braviary 0.0642851 391 Sheer Force - 38.14 % (786 battles) Mawile 0.0399521 243 Sheer Force - 11.46 % (72 battles) Kingler 0.0236753 144 Sheer Force - 44.84 % (443 battles) [/HIDE] Proposition 2: Ban Sheer Force Reason 2 INCOMPLETE: Nearly all relevant (and some unrelevant) users of Sheer Force in the WiFi OU tier using the item Life Orb are capable of the same 2 feats: being able to OHKO a large amount of the metagame and being able to 2HKO a majority of the metagame. This isn't a feat exclusive to Sheer Force Landorus-I, it applies to most of the prominent Sheer Force users as well, in particular Landorus, Conkeldurr Darminitan, and Nidoking. In total, A Pokemon is granted a whopping 1.69x boost when both the Ability and Sheer Force activate at the cost of the abilities secondary effect. That essentially translates to the said Pokemon having an extra powerful Choice Specs and Band and the utility of an Expert Belt all at the same time. Not to mention that you can swap out the Life Orb and run any of the other choiced item for either more power (Band or Specs) or power and speed (Scarf). Proposition 2: Ban Sheer Force Reason 3 Sand Force Landorus-I still retains 36.58% of Landorus-I Unranked Usage Statistic. Sand Force Landorus-I would continue to hold an important and valuable space in the metagame independent of Landorus-T. Sand Force Landorus-I would function as a more powerful option to Landorus-T with Sand Force boosted attacks and a higher base special statistic. And most importantly, the higher base speed statistic of Landorus-I lets it function as a better revenge killer and offensive threat. It would widely be able to perform all of the same rolls it did in BW1 with the added addition of a few tricks such as SR and being able to check Landorus-T. All the old walls to Sand Force still exist and are in the metagame. And with the introduction of BW2, new checks and revenge killers also exist (Keldeo and others). Proposition 3: Leave the suspect as Landorus-I as a whole. No supporting reasons especially because this is a community choice and since the above poll indicates that more than likely a majority of users feel that Sand Force Landorus-I is not broken in any way. Ripped from Your Logic Fallacy Is Slippery Slope You said that if we allow A to happen, then Z will eventually happen too, therefore A should not happen. The problem with this reasoning is that it avoids engaging with the issue at hand, and instead shifts attention to extreme hypotheticals. Because no proof is presented to show that such extreme hypotheticals will in fact occur, this fallacy has the form of an appeal to emotion fallacy by leveraging fear. In effect the argument at hand is unfairly tainted by unsubstantiated conjecture. Example: Colin Closet asserts that if we allow same-sex couples to marry, then the next thing we know we'll be allowing people to marry their parents, their cars and even monkeys. Appeal to Authority You said that because an authority thinks something, it must therefore be true. It's important to note that this fallacy should not be used to dismiss the claims of experts, or scientific consensus. Appeals to authority are not valid arguments, but nor is it reasonable to disregard the claims of experts who have a demonstrated depth of knowledge unless one has a similar level of understanding and/or access to empirical evidence. However it is, entirely possible that the opinion of a person or institution of authority is wrong; therefore the authority that such a person or institution holds does not have any intrinsic bearing upon whether their claims are true or not. Example: Not able to defend his position that evolution 'isn't true' Bob says that he knows a scientist who also questions evolution (and presumably isn't a primate). Black-or-White You presented two alternative states as the only possibilities, when in fact more possibilities exist. Also known as the false dilemma, this insidious tactic has the appearance of forming a logical argument, but under closer scrutiny it becomes evident that there are more possibilities than the either/or choice that is presented. Binary, black-or-white thinking doesn't allow for the many different variables, conditions, and contexts in which there would exist more than just the two possibilities put forth. It frames the argument misleadingly and obscures rational, honest debate. Example: Whilst rallying support for his plan to fundamentally undermine citizens' rights, the Supreme Leader told the people they were either on his side, or they were on the side of the enemy. And a few closing words from Key and Myself (Keep in mind the Appeal to Authority Fallacy): (03:33) Key: i wish they would consider a complex ban (03:33) Key: theyre being ******s about it (03:38) Key: at the very least it would be doing something different from smogon (03:38) Dånte: Better than that (03:38) Dånte: it would be doing something better than smogon We have been banning parts of an individual Pokemon for ages! All Formes are part of a Pokemon. Landorus is a Pokemon with 3 abilities, a move pool, stats, and two Formes. Thank you for agreeing about the slippery slope being a bad response. This is a simple case, with an overwhelming majority agreeing that something isn't broken. And maybe tiering as a whole does need to be reworked and dialogs established which allow for this. And quite frankly because I expected this response, I even started research on Sheer Force as a whole to fit into the current mechanics. By far it seems banning Sheer Force more favorable result than banning Landorus as a whole for the metagame. And simply because XY is coming out and we don't have time is a poor excuse to not do our best for the current issue at hand.[/secret] Oak EDIT: I've put the entire post in secret tabs, as it just makes the topic stupidly larger, and it overall doesn't affect the topic at hand.