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[BW2] Landorus-I Suspect Discussion

Discussion in 'Gen 5 Discussion' started by Halsey, Jul 26, 2013.

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  1. Dånte

    Dånte Member

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    Hello PO Forums!

    [secret]For starters, I would like to discuss Landorus as a whole throughout theses nearing 3 years of WiFi OU metagame. For this I have made a handy timeline (of sorts) for Landorus ranked usage stats and the relevant changes that occurred though out the metagame for me to reference in my short introductory narrative. This timeline and narrative can be found below in the hidden tab.

    2010 Oct 6.11%
    2010 Nov MISSING ALL DATA
    2010 Dec 4.74%
    2011 Jan 4.91%
    2011 Feb 4.56%
    2011 Mar 4.23%
    2011 Apr 3.9954%
    • Introduction of Ranked Usage Statistics
    2011 May 4.74691%
    2011 June 4.74691%
    2011 July 4.94336%
    2011 Aug 4.29076%
    2011 Sept 5.31971%
    2011 Oct 6.59619%
    • Excadrill was banned from Smogon
    2011 Nov 6.78668%
    2011 Dec 8.07761%
    • PO Banned Excadrill
    2012 Jan 11.0338%
    2012 Feb 10.7976%
    2012 Mar 11.0414%
    2012 Apr 11.0132%
    2012 May 11.3488%
    2012 June 10.9395%
    • Sand Force - 99.66 % (116368 battles)
    • Sheer Force - 0.34 % (399 battles)
    • BW2 Release
    2012 July 6.4818%
    • Sand Force - 89.65 % (3812 battles)
    • Sheer Force - 10.35 % (440 battles)
    2012 Aug 9.96751%
    • Sand Force - 66.92 % (27502 battles)
    • Sheer Force - 33.08 % (13596 battles)
    2012 Sept 12.5216%
    • Sand Force - 51.90 % (84115 battles)
    • Sheer Force - 48.10 % (77964 battles)
    2012 Nov 10.948%
    • Sheer Force - 56.14 % (66445 battles)
    • Sand Force - 43.86 % (51912 battles)
    2012 Dec 9.77117%
    • Sheer Force - 56.97 % (54018 battles)
    • Sand Force - 43.03 % (40808 battles)
    2013 Jan 9.02339%
    • Sheer Force - 56.26 % (56840 battles)
    • Sand Force - 43.74 % (44182 battles)
    2013 Feb 8.83594%
    • Sheer Force - 56.30 % (63575 battles)
    • Sand Force - 43.70 % (49345 battles)
    2013 Mar 9.45388%
    • Sheer Force - 60.24 % (69626 battles)
    • Sand Force - 39.76 % (45958 battles)
    2013 Apr 8.83586%
    • Sheer Force - 59.96 % (46310 battles)
    • Sand Force - 40.04 % (30928 battles)
    2013 May 9.52073%
    • Sheer Force - 64.46 % (63183 battles)
    • Sand Force - 35.54 % (34834 battles)
    2013 June 9.2095%
    • Sheer Force - 63.92 % (50074 battles)
    • Sand Force - 36.08 % (28265 battles)
    2013 July 9.3049%
    • Sheer Force - 63.42 % (46162 battles)
    • Sand Force - 36.58 % (26629 battles)


    Landorus had a less than stellar debut into the new WiFi OU tier. He started out as one of the more overlooked Pokemon, being nearly completely outclassed for a team spot by Excadrill. As a result he saw very little usage and within the first month of Ranked Usage Statistics, Landorus fell to UU. After rising back up to OU ranks in July (May and June usage statistics were combined), Landorus barely held on to his OU status with relatively no change. Then Excadrill got banned on Smogon in October of 2011. PO saw a steady rise in Landorus usage until it maintained ~11% usage shortly after PO banned Excadrill. He fit well into the VolTurn metagame and stayed a key player in shaping the tier. His usage remained steadily around the 11% for the coming months. Then came along BW2 and the new Therian Formes in June of 2012. Landorus-I took backseat to Landorus-T that month as all the users tested out all the new changes brought forth by the new game, only reaching a mere 6.4818%. It's usage was quick to bounce back and reached ~10% usage in August. August also marks the beginning of widespread usage of Sheer Force. Slowly but surely, Sheer Force usage climbed and eventually took the lead as the preferred ability on Landorus-I. Ranked usage statistics started averaging ~9%, Sheer Force became the preferred ability (with a roughly 2:1 ratio for the past 3 months) and that is where we stand today as his suspect discussion thread comes to an open.[/HIDE]

    With that out of the way, I would like to make 3 proposals for the Landorus-I discussion.

    PROPOSITION 1:My first proposal is that we have the option to exclude Sand Force Landorus-I from the suspect discussion and make this discussion and potential vote solely about Sheer Force Landorus-I. In other words, I am proposing a complex ban. The reasons for this is twofold.

    Further Regarding Complex Bans in hidden tab:
    Why not change? The general rule has been that complex bans should not happen. But what is a simple ban? We ban Items. We ban Abilities. We ban Formes. Are all of these simple bans?

    Items
    Only one item has been banned from PO, Soul Dew. Why was Soul Dew banned? It didn't make Tyranitar, Politoed, Scizor, Dragonite or almost any other Pokemon too powerful when they held Soul Dew. It only made Latios and Latias too powerful. In this case, the ban was the best interest for the metagame. A simple banning of one item allowed two very important Pokemon in the OU tier to remain OU. Were banning item(s) simple?

    Abilties
    Three abilities have been banned; Moody, Sand Veil, and Snow Cloak. Moody was banned outright as a whole from all tiers including Ubers. This ability had some contention even in the suspect as to whether or not it broke Ubers. Overall though, it was an ability that with luck that had the potential to make all 7 users nearly undefeatable. Overall I support the ban as it would have more than likely resulted in Smeargle's (an important member of Baton Pass teams and a possible dedicated lead) ban from WiFi OU.
    The Sand Veil and Snow Cloak were banned from WiFi OU. These abilities were weather reliant and allowed them to avoid getting it. Of the users, there was only one main abuser used at the time, Gliscor. As for Mamoswine and Froslass, the other two users, there was heavy contention as to whether or not they were actually broken with the said abilities. And the most threatening Sand Veil Pokemon, Garchomp had already been banned, mostly due to the ability to abuse Sand Veil. In the end, the community decided to support a complete ban of weather dependent evasion abilities and the eventual return of Garchomp WiFi OU. Were banning abilities simple?

    Formes
    We have been dividing Pokemon based on their Formes for quite a while. Formes can have a variety of differences; movepools (Rotom, Keldeo, and Kyurem), base statistics (Deoxys, Rotom, Tornadus, Thundurus, Landorus, and Kyurem), Abilities (Tornadus, Thundurus, Landorus, and Kyurem), and typing (Rotom). They each have their own usage statistic and some are banned from or dropped into specific tiers depending on their Forme. But they all share the same Pokedex. Having Multiples on a team still violates the species clause. In the case of suspect and banning, we are looking at a part of a Pokemon while ignoring the rest. Were banning of Formes simple?

    Closing Remarks
    I feel that what was done in the above mentioned situations was perfectly fine. I especially feel that in regards to the Item, Formes, and the unmentioned SS+Drizzle bans, we have come to the results that benefit the metagame. In the case of Abilities I feel Moody was a smart move, but I feel like some users might have been forced to vote Mamoswine and Froslass being broken with the ability as well in order to remove Gliscor's Sand Veil and allow Garchomp to drop back down. But as a whole, aren't all these bans complex bans?[/HIDE]

    Proposition 1: Complex Ban Reason 1
    Here on the forums, the consensus is that Sand Force is strong, but in relatively no way broken. This topic is a prime example as well, nearly all prior posts solely discuss Sheer Force Landorus-I with very little mention of Sand Force other than it is manageable. And normally that is all that we could reference.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][/HIDE]
    What I have above in that hidden tab is the screenshot of the ladder rankings of the top 80 player of WiFi OU at 2013-07-24 at 00:30:00 US Central Time. I chose to ask as many of those 80 players if they thought that Sand Force Landorus-I was any way broken in the Wifi OU tier. Out of those 80, I amazingly was able to receive a response from 52. Of the 52 I managed to contact, 50 said that No Sand Force Landorus-I was not broken in any way. 1 person said that they were not sure. And 1 person said they would not share their opinion and became cross about it. In addition to those top 80 players, I decided to ask other notable figures in the PO community. These users were Captian, Harlott, Hugo, Key, Marth, Meh, Sadfthadsf, TFL, Terrorghoul/Gilgamesh, and ZodiaK. Of those 10 users, all but 2 users stated a strong not broken stance. Harlott said theoretically it was possible, but in practice more than likely not. Zodiak replied with a maybe and problems regarding tiering/suspect discussions which lead to how he thought the metagame should be. Those were the all but two responses. What I have below is a list of individuals arranged by who whether or not they were contacted and what their views were if they were contacted. Also, the duplicate alts that I knew of were also pointed out there. If there is a question of the authenticity of my claims, I will be more than happy to provide screen shots of the PM's in question.

    Ladder Votes

    Not Broken Votes
    -Snorlax-
    Lelouch v Britannia
    [Aura] Electro•
    Smores
    Elyis
    -Rizkybest9-
    Liked
    [IMP]Addax
    Tell Your World
    [EG]Cyberodin
    Shinji Kagawa
    Litleo[Test]
    [EG]DarkSora
    Gligargoyle
    [Hero]Litleo
    .Dizzy
    Crying Lightning
    Opjqy
    LTB2
    [IND]2 Chainz.
    Dånte
    Hypervortex9
    Litleo
    Swinubstep
    Møhican
    HuntingZombies
    Pancham
    HappyTerrakion
    Sun Bro
    Ohmachi
    Poke Ninja
    Jay-Stylee
    #Pr0|.Lance
    BS England
    Corumba
    TestingAlt.
    Lonely Swan
    [TD]Auros
    Jon Jones
    BaseBallPlaya12
    Ultimoh
    [Aura]TheMage111
    F_17
    [IDM]Tox
    Saammyy
    Affa
    Likedd
    Fabio Caressa
    [Aura] Maxwolf
    Jorgen

    Refused Comment/Not Sure
    Cacadevaca
    LetsOU

    Other Players Vote

    Not Broken
    Captain
    Hugo
    Key
    Marth
    Meh
    Sadfthadsf
    Terrorghoul/Gilgamesh

    Theoretically Yes, but Practically No
    Harlott

    Maybe
    ZodiaK

    [/HIDE]

    Proposition 1: Complex Ban Reason 2
    Sand Force Landorus-I still retains 36.58% of Landorus-I Unranked Usage Statistic. Sand Force Landorus-I would continue to hold an important and valuable space in the metagame independent of Landorus-T. Sand Force Landorus-I would function as a more powerful option to Landorus-T with Sand Force boosted attacks and a higher base special statistic. And most importantly, the higher base speed statistic of Landorus-I lets it function as a better revenge killer and offensive threat. It would widely be able to perform all of the same rolls it did in BW1 with the added addition of a few tricks such as SR and being able to check Landorus-T. All the old walls to Sand Force still exist and are in the metagame. And with the introduction of BW2, new checks and revenge killers also exist (Keldeo and others).


    PROPOSITION 2: My second proposal is that we have the option to ban the ability Sheer Force itself from the WiFi OU tier instead. The reason for this is threefold.

    Proposition 2: Ban Sheer Force Reason 1
    INCOMPLETE: Define Relevant Sheer Force Pokemon and their statistics. Relevant: Landorus Conkeldurr Darminitan Nidoking

    Landorus 9.3049 56595
    Sheer Force - 63.42 % (46162 battles)

    Conkeldurr 5.99463 36461
    Sheer Force - 8.57 % (4780 battles)

    Darmanitan 1.46097 8886
    Sheer Force - 8.57 % (4780 battles)

    Nidoking 1.05668 6427
    Sheer Force - 81.03 % (12861 battles)

    Druddigon 0.353979 2153
    Sheer Force - 16.19 % (706 battles)

    Steelix 0.22097 1344
    Sheer Force - 9.13 % (662 battles)

    Tauros 0.140572 855
    Sheer Force - 55.84 % (1410 battles)

    Rampardos 0.110321 671
    Mold Breaker - 50.07 % (1815 battles)

    Hariyama 0.101113 615
    Sheer Force - 17.26 % (540 battles)

    Braviary 0.0642851 391
    Sheer Force - 38.14 % (786 battles)

    Mawile 0.0399521 243
    Sheer Force - 11.46 % (72 battles)

    Kingler 0.0236753 144
    Sheer Force - 44.84 % (443 battles)
    [/HIDE]

    Proposition 2: Ban Sheer Force Reason 2
    INCOMPLETE: Nearly all relevant (and some unrelevant) users of Sheer Force in the WiFi OU tier using the item Life Orb are capable of the same 2 feats: being able to OHKO a large amount of the metagame and being able to 2HKO a majority of the metagame. This isn't a feat exclusive to Sheer Force Landorus-I, it applies to most of the prominent Sheer Force users as well, in particular Landorus, Conkeldurr Darminitan, and Nidoking. In total, A Pokemon is granted a whopping 1.69x boost when both the Ability and Sheer Force activate at the cost of the abilities secondary effect. That essentially translates to the said Pokemon having an extra powerful Choice Specs and Band and the utility of an Expert Belt all at the same time. Not to mention that you can swap out the Life Orb and run any of the other choiced item for either more power (Band or Specs) or power and speed (Scarf).

    Proposition 2: Ban Sheer Force Reason 3
    Sand Force Landorus-I still retains 36.58% of Landorus-I Unranked Usage Statistic. Sand Force Landorus-I would continue to hold an important and valuable space in the metagame independent of Landorus-T. Sand Force Landorus-I would function as a more powerful option to Landorus-T with Sand Force boosted attacks and a higher base special statistic. And most importantly, the higher base speed statistic of Landorus-I lets it function as a better revenge killer and offensive threat. It would widely be able to perform all of the same rolls it did in BW1 with the added addition of a few tricks such as SR and being able to check Landorus-T. All the old walls to Sand Force still exist and are in the metagame. And with the introduction of BW2, new checks and revenge killers also exist (Keldeo and others).


    Proposition 3: Leave the suspect as Landorus-I as a whole. No supporting reasons especially because this is a community choice and since the above poll indicates that more than likely a majority of users feel that Sand Force Landorus-I is not broken in any way.


    Ripped from Your Logic Fallacy Is

    Slippery Slope

    You said that if we allow A to happen, then Z will eventually happen too, therefore A should not happen.

    The problem with this reasoning is that it avoids engaging with the issue at hand, and instead shifts attention to extreme hypotheticals. Because no proof is presented to show that such extreme hypotheticals will in fact occur, this fallacy has the form of an appeal to emotion fallacy by leveraging fear. In effect the argument at hand is unfairly tainted by unsubstantiated conjecture.
    Example: Colin Closet asserts that if we allow same-sex couples to marry, then the next thing we know we'll be allowing people to marry their parents, their cars and even monkeys.

    Appeal to Authority

    You said that because an authority thinks something, it must therefore be true.

    It's important to note that this fallacy should not be used to dismiss the claims of experts, or scientific consensus. Appeals to authority are not valid arguments, but nor is it reasonable to disregard the claims of experts who have a demonstrated depth of knowledge unless one has a similar level of understanding and/or access to empirical evidence. However it is, entirely possible that the opinion of a person or institution of authority is wrong; therefore the authority that such a person or institution holds does not have any intrinsic bearing upon whether their claims are true or not.
    Example: Not able to defend his position that evolution 'isn't true' Bob says that he knows a scientist who also questions evolution (and presumably isn't a primate).

    Black-or-White

    You presented two alternative states as the only possibilities, when in fact more possibilities exist.

    Also known as the false dilemma, this insidious tactic has the appearance of forming a logical argument, but under closer scrutiny it becomes evident that there are more possibilities than the either/or choice that is presented. Binary, black-or-white thinking doesn't allow for the many different variables, conditions, and contexts in which there would exist more than just the two possibilities put forth. It frames the argument misleadingly and obscures rational, honest debate.
    Example: Whilst rallying support for his plan to fundamentally undermine citizens' rights, the Supreme Leader told the people they were either on his side, or they were on the side of the enemy.


    And a few closing words from Key and Myself (Keep in mind the Appeal to Authority Fallacy):
    (03:33) Key: i wish they would consider a complex ban
    (03:33) Key: theyre being ******s about it
    (03:38) Key: at the very least it would be doing something different from smogon
    (03:38) Dånte: Better than that
    (03:38) Dånte: it would be doing something better than smogon

    We have been banning parts of an individual Pokemon for ages! All Formes are part of a Pokemon. Landorus is a Pokemon with 3 abilities, a move pool, stats, and two Formes.

    Thank you for agreeing about the slippery slope being a bad response. This is a simple case, with an overwhelming majority agreeing that something isn't broken. And maybe tiering as a whole does need to be reworked and dialogs established which allow for this. And quite frankly because I expected this response, I even started research on Sheer Force as a whole to fit into the current mechanics. By far it seems banning Sheer Force more favorable result than banning Landorus as a whole for the metagame. And simply because XY is coming out and we don't have time is a poor excuse to not do our best for the current issue at hand.[/secret]

    Oak EDIT: I've put the entire post in secret tabs, as it just makes the topic stupidly larger, and it overall doesn't affect the topic at hand.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 28, 2013
  2. Luck>Skill

    Luck>Skill Well-Known Member

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    I forgot about feraligatr, I don't ladder so yeahhhhhhhhh

    the other 2 don't OHKO unless prior damage (bullet punch doesnt even 2HKO modest "bulky" rp landorus which is arguably its best set, I'm considering lucario / dragonite as extremespeed users but I may be forgetting some

    its not "being faggots" about complex ban, while it is true that sheer force is the thing that "pushes landorus over the edge" it is also true that Landorus is the pokemon "over the edge", Landorus isn't Sheer Force, or Rock Polish, or Earth Power, Landorus is a Pokemon with 2 abilities, a movepool, and stats, banning parts of pokes is wrong, for multiple reasons, but I see a lot of people fail to see that. While it is indeed true that nobody here is that stupid to believe that banning stabs from palkia would make it ou and therefore such a complex ban should exist, it is also true that borderline cases aren't as easy to consider as you present it, it would also make PO reconsider its whole tiering, Blaziken, lower tiers, everything then would have to be reconsidered if we could allow a complex ban to happen (other than Drizzle + Swift Swim, obviously), banning Drought + Chlorophyll is right? Unbanning Blaze Blaziken? Unbanning Frisk Gothitelle from UU? All of these are scenarios that would have to be discussed, we don't have enough time to do that though, as xy is happening soon
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2013
  3. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

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    Whew. Been a while since I've been in OU.

    First off, a complex ban (ban only Sheer Force Landorus) would solve absolutely nothing in two ways: One, it's still a powerhouse with Sand Force (it isn't as common but still theoretically a threat), so banning only the ability will still keep it used which some are arguing about. Two, complex bans are much harder than people think of it when it comes to programming, and X and Y is coming out in 2-3 months, so there's no point wasting the effort.

    Second, no point banning Sheer Force as a whole because, unlike Moody, it isn't metagame-changing when put onto anything. As of now, the thing that is metagame-changing with it is only Landorus-I, which is what we're talking about now.

    Now, as for Landorus-I...

    I for one never liked Landorus in OU, mainly because of Rock Polish and U-Turn. After a Rock Polish, it is impossible to revenge kill without priority or a boost (I checked, no Scarfed Pokemon can catch up to it) while it rips weakened teams to shreds. Of course, it does have ways to be handled like Defensive Celebi, Jelli, the pink blobs, and the Latis when we're talking Special Attacker + RP. But, to be honest, that isn't enough. CBTar is almost always used with it and can take out all of the above.

    One of the biggest problems with Landorus-I is easily U-Turn, which puts its own checks in check by hitting the Latis and Celebi where it hurts on the switch while stealing every bit of momentum away. This also lets it run Physical sets (with Hidden Power Ice) and Sand Force, which brings up the argument that the complex ban won't work, or Mixed Life Orb OR Scarf sets with Sheer Force.

    I am stunned at the people who say it can't switch in because they are only half-right. It can't switch in to Surf or Ice Beam by any means, but it can easily abuse a Thunderbolt or Earthquake spammer and wreck havoc. Also, 89/90/80 is by no means frail, so it can come into weaker hits and set up/kill.

    Landorus-I is splashable, versatile, more unpredictable than people take it, and downright hard to kill. It's stats, typing, and movepool makes it almost the perfect Pokemon.

    In conclusion:
    [SECRET] qmPatrickUber.jpg [/SECRET]
     

    Attached Files:

  4. MUMU

    MUMU DNR KILLED IT

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    Nope.

    Most of the landorus checks are usually in HO team just for sweeping and/or stallbreaking anyway,like latos and latias,but also a lot of pokemon the resist e power and can survive it's coverage moves,like gyarados as you say,dragonite can beat it if sr isn't up,which,a team with dragonite should focus on stopping anyway,celebi and hp ice virizion used as rain checks can also handle it,seeing celebi runs baton pass for tyraniter+keldeo anyway,bulky starmie can take a hit,conkeldurr too,if you say it sweeps when it predcts right and nothing can switch in,that's same for dragonite,lum ones can set up on breloom or tentacruel easily,so prediction/set up isn't a reason for suspect. And agility thunderus ohko most of ou after sr now that gastrodon is nu.

    For stall,chansey never lost it's usefulness,it's the best spacial wall and probably the overall wall,and band tyraniter 2hkoing the whole ou make tyraniter the one who takes the credit,not landorus,besides,magnezone can trap most of dragon checks too,like tyraniter for landorus,so dragon is broken now?

    Also,[email protected] Idea of kyurem B ban.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2013
  5. Captain

    Captain Suns Out Guns Out

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    After skimming through and reading some of the posts I'm well...Speechless that some of you think its in no way at all broken.
    Physical Lando is not broken by any means but the real problem is the Sheerforce sets , as everyone else has stated. The fact of the matter is any viable ou team that wants to actually compete needs to have realistically 2 checks to this mon, if not then a ton of priority. The common checks to landorus that one would use to deal with its rock polish sets, are demolished by the momentum and damage of the uturn set so even trying to scout this pokemon is a losing battle. And to those saying that "ou has a ton of ice moves etc , just use iceshard etc" So basically as long as the opponents lando is still alive constantly spam ice moves so it cannot come in for free? Or just carry mammo on every team? This should prove to be a difficult suspect.

    Its broken, or at the very least extremely over centralizing and way to easy to abuse.
     
  6. WizzleKidd

    WizzleKidd Wizzlin' PO since Feb '11

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    OU is completely fine at the moment. It's always been a good pokemon but you lot are exaggerating way too much. Some excuses I'm seeing can apply to other pokemon such as Terrakion or Keldeo but let's not get into those two haha. 'Ooh, nothing can switch in' which is a complete lie. So erm, predict then?
    It is NOT centralising, it is not okay, you do not need a Lati in every team. It just comes down to your team building lol. If you make a team that isn't prepared for one of the top threats then you will get defeated.

    Scarf set is not even worth talking about, I use it all the time. It does its job revenging weakened shit and u-turning, but oh yeah people can predict at times. EQ into a levitator? Your momentum is gone. It also gets blocked by shit like Skarmory, Hippo, Rotom and friends. Not to mention it's not significantly bulky at all and doesn't resist rocks. ANYWAY..

    I'm guessing Rock Polish is the real reason here? To NidoTheKing guy you just mentioned how good the RP+special set is, yet you listed a bunch of pokes that can effectively take it on lol. Jellicent (or another bulky water), Celebi, Chansey, the Lati siblings and Blissey are examples. Heck even bulky Rotom and Gyarados have a chance. Also yes it gets focus blast for the blobs but its accuracy is too damn unreliable.
    So I ask why isn't this enough? How many checks and counters do you need? If anything Terrakion has much less checks than Landorus. Please don't mention team partners like Tyranitar... this logic applies to every pokemon. Unlike something ban-worthy like Blaziken, it needs team support to be fully effective as it won't sweep a full (good) healthy team.

    Talking about U-Turn, yes it can hit its checks with it like Celebi to escape which are far from ohko's btw.. yet so could something else which is fast and has u-turn, that's just what u-turn does. ??
    Most funny part is that I don't see any sets that have rock polish AND u-turn??? Honestly how many moves can Landorus run at once? Lol? It's like this suspect thread is simply explaining how good Landorus is, which is true but forgets it can only use four moves. Stop stating every perfect scenario with theory, real battles are different. As soon as you know what set it is, prepare straight away. Scarfed set? Predict more. RP set? Get your check/counter out.

    And yeah it has a good but not amazing 101 speed, common weaknesses too and priority weak but that's been stated many times. It's also #28 in usage which is farrr from being a top OU threat but it is a very good pokemon. Yes.
    So yeahhh... I been watching this for laughs and decided to add my bit.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2013
  7. phucvn

    phucvn Cheap player

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    It seems like everybody did the damage calc so I'm not gonna repeat the boring stuffs.
    About Landorus-I, it's clear that the Special Attacking sets are what make it seems broken. Now, these sets come with a few variant. The first one being the Rock Polish sweeper set, in which he carries Earth Power, Focus Blast, and HP Ice. This set aims to come in late-game and clean up the field as its counters are severely weakened. What sucks is that this set NEEDS those counters weaken to actually sweep, and thus require intense support, mostly from Tyranitar. The second one uses U-turn instead of RP, in order to checkmate its would-be counters, like Celebi and [email protected] This time, what sucks is that Lando can never actually sweep unless the Scarfers are paralyzed and Mamo is dead anyway. Overall, Landorus is undisputably strong, but it is far from broken. So does it seems so in reality? "Overwhelming power"? Then why are we keeping Kyurem_black? "Sheer unpredictability"? Let's ban Mew then, maybe Jirachi too. "Lack of surefire counter"? No, cuz that would mean Hydreigon is OP. The real answer is that Landorus-I alone is not broken at all. Instead, what IS BROKEN, is LandoTar. Lando-I is almost always, if not always paired up with Tyranitar. In fact,
    So yeah, having to rely completely on another pokemon to be broken, doesnt make a pokemon broken, does it?. Overall, I think it's pretty clear that Landorus-I would never be deemed broken if it weren't for Tyranitar. And did we even discuss how Keldeo weak this combo is?
    Conclusion: Keep it, but obviously my idea doesn't matter unless I reach 1400 on suspect ladder and vote no ban on Landorus-I
     
  8. Luck>Skill

    Luck>Skill Well-Known Member

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    I don't like the logic of "without SR Dnite takes a hit and kills it back

    Why? It's exactly like saying "a Pokemon with Focus Sash can revenge kill with its Sash intact", which is, honestly, a horrible way to defeat landorus

    Latios/Latias are good, that's fine, they are good pokes, have a lot of utility in OU and they also beat landorus one on one, as long as they don't get u-turned, but to actually beat landorus they'd need to run Recover on their movesets, as Specs / Scarf can only revenge kill it, but revenge killing isn't an argument

    set up is one hell of a reason, when setting up is SO EASY and so ridicolously powerful

    DDnite is slow even at +1, without rocks it can't set up on much and has some coverage problems, something landorus doesn't have, flying isn't exactly a good defensive typing, at least not when coupled with dragon, while ground flying is amazing both offensively and defensively

    sure, a lot of stuff can take a hit and then OHKO back, like the pokes you mentioned, but none of them can actually switch into landorus

    the combination of bulk and power is what makes landorus OP, and no, dragmags aren't even close to landotar power wise, for once, magnezone isn't that good of a poke outside of killing steels, while tyranitar has a lot of utilities like checking latwins and sporting great unpredictability as well as having an absurd firepower, then most dragons share counters / checks and are a lot more easy to revenge kill, as most of them lack the bulk to take a hit (bar chomper and multiscale dragonite)

    landorus doesn't need to predict nearly as hard as you are saying either, remember that most EP resists / immunities are smacked by hp ice bar the stuff mentioned earlier, so throwing EPs isn't a bad idea at all generally as landorus speed allows it to actually do that
     
  9. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

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    This logic is almost all wrong when it comes to not banning something.

    It is best to account every scenario when suspecting a Pokemon, no matter how uncommon the set may be, as long as the options are effective (what IF Focus Blast hits?)

    Teammates actually account A LOT when it comes to Suspect Testing. Excadrill being banned because of Sandstorm starters is a prime example. Blissey in UU, for example, wasn't banned because it was broken by itself as a Pokemon; Blissey has crap Defense and Speed in the tier and could do no damage. The main reason it was banned because of the stupid cores that it made and how it supported teams.

    Also, a smart player that uses Landorus has ways around those Pokemon, like TTar and Ferrothorn.

    Terrakion is also more manageable than Landorus, but this isn't the place to talk about it.

    No, no, no, and hell no!

    101 is enough to outrun a decent portion of the tier even if not all of it, its bulk and typing is actually great, priority bar rather uncommon Aqua Jet and Ice Shard can't KO iirc, and usage doesn't matter, like, at all (Deoxys-D was banned while #50~)
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2013
  10. Crystal Moogle

    Crystal Moogle Ayaya~

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    I think a lot of people agreeing to the "Ban Sheer Force Landorus" thing, don't realise the full consequences of doing so. Luck kind of touched on this, but I don't think he mentioned the full picture. You mentioned about formes, and I can see the similarities you draw from that, so I'll use formes for my example.

    As you said, we ban individual formes, so yes, we do treat them as different Pokémon. This applies to every single Pokémon, thought luckily not every Pokémon has a forme, exceptions are formes with only aesthetic changes (Gastrodon) or in-battle only changes (Meloetta). Basically we can ban a forme independently of the original Pokémon (Tornadus-T) or vice-versa (Deoxys before Deoxys-D ban), we also give them different usage stats, a forme can be higher in usage, or even in a different tier than the original Pokémon (Rotom-W). If we were to do as you ask and essentially do for abilities what we do for formes now, that would need to apply to EVERY Pokémon, otherwise it's simply unfair and biased towards Landorus. With that in mind, we must now look at abilities in this new light. First, bans. Now that we've done this, we can free Blaze Blaziken, Excadrill without Sand Rush, and Shadowtag-less Gothitelle for UU, plus in the future (or for current DW players) most likely Chandelure without Shadowtag too.

    I'm sure most of you already knew that and are possibly quite happy with that, I'm not going to say if that's good or bad, because I'm just telling you the full consequences. However, this is not the only thing that would change, as I said, formes along with different bans also have different usage stats.Here's where things gets awkward, now we have to basically apply usage stats to different abilities as well as different Pokémon/formes. Ninetails without Drought or Politoed without Drizzle are not going to stay OU for long. The Drought/Drizzle versions will stay in OU, whilst other versions will most likely drop to NU. Remember this has to apply to every single Pokémon, I guess we could make exceptions with differences that don't do anything for the Pokémon (Run Away), but now we have to take all this in mind with usage stats and during tier changes and we're gonna start having Pokémon split across tiers simply because of their ability. Now, maybe some of you did realise this already and are fine with it, I'm just making sure people realise the full consequences of what happens when you do this. Though I have a feeling the Tier Leaders (All of them, not just OU) are going to hate this.

    I also have a feeling someone's going to reply to me claiming slippery slope. I would like to state that this is not a slippery slope. This MUST happen if you ban Sheer Force Landorus. You cannot do to one Pokémon that you would not do to all the others. It is complete bias to make exceptions for one Pokémon, each Pokémon should be treated the same in terms of stats/bans and thus everything above will happen, so please do not reply with slippery slope.

    [SECRET]I would like to add, that I have no idea what you're saying in your third proposal and I doubt I'm the only one. You list 3 fallacies, without any context and simply give meaningless examples. I don't know if you're trying to make a counter-argument, but simply stating fallacies and nothing else is a fallacy in itself. I would strongly advise you try backing up the point you are trying to make here, rather that spouting terms without context. [/SECRET]
     
  11. Professor Oak

    Professor Oak same Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep

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    Posting in response to post #41:
    No, I'm not having a complex ban. Either Landorus's Incarnate Forme gets banned, or it doesn't.

    This isn't for discussion.

    Also note that we've been infracting and deleting the posts of anyone who is insulting the tier leaders, tier, PO or similar things, and people who are not just discussing the suspect at hand. We are cracking down on this, and if it continues, temporary forum bans will be given instead of further infractions. You have been warned.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2013
  12. Hot N Cold

    Hot N Cold Active Member

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    Landorus (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sheer Force
    EVs: 88 HP / 252 SAtk / 168 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Earth Power
    - Focus Blast
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Rock Polish

    Probably best special sweeper on the tier, hard to counter because the other Landorus sets, this set work very well paired with Ebelt Keldeo Hp Bug to lure Celebi / [email protected] U-turn Landorus-I isnt gonna sweep any team but can open holes the necesary easily to sweep another stuff like Keldeo. With Pursuit support is stupid good and boring.

    Ban Landorus-I imo
     
  13. Nikitas

    Nikitas Member

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    I do not wish to make any arguement about Lando's sets. The only thing I want to say is that I believe that without it, the meta would be better. This doesnt mean that I find it broken or anything(which atm, I do not), just an opinion.
     
  14. Sheps

    Sheps Banana Phone

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    Although I personally feel it should be banned for reasons explained by a dozen other people on here, for the sake of discussion I think this pokemon was missed in discussing possible counters/checks to defeat Landorus. If it was already mentioned and I missed it my apologies.

    [email protected]/Lefties
    252 SPA 252 SPE 4HP
    Timid

    -Giga Drain
    -Focus Blast
    -HP (Ice)
    -Calm Mind

    Capable of taking all of Lando's hits other than obiously psychic and Sludge wave which I don't see as much anymore and isn't a part of the two common sets. Can outspeed and OHKO with Hp Ice. Not perfect, but it seems the idea of this discussion is that there isn't really perfect counter to Lando. This set has however, consistently gotten the job done for me personally.
     
  15. Hot N Cold

    Hot N Cold Active Member

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    252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Virizion: 178-211 (54.93 - 65.12%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Virizion: 268-317 (82.71 - 97.83%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    sludge wave does more than psychic

    252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Virizion: 162-192 (50 - 59.25%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    Also, add Sandstorm because many times Landorus-I is paired with Ttar or Hippowdown (or both). So in the best case Virizion is a decent check to Landorus-I playing very careful and healthy Virizion since lacks to recover btw landorus with the right move can 2hko or hko virizion (on the uturn case losing your momentum or if you're using RP landorus and Virizion is around 60%, he uses RP you switch to Virizion, you lose Virizion and a great chance to sweep your entire team if you dont use more checks or counter to Landorus).

    Finally, you're using a "check" which isnt very good on the meta BW OU.
     
  16. Sheps

    Sheps Banana Phone

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    I chose my words carefully so people wouldn't get the wrong idea, guess it didn't work. I already noted the possibility of psychic and sludge, but also said they weren't a part of the two common sets that most people have been discussing. So I left them out. As far as the rest. I still think Lando should be banned so don't think because of one decent check I think it should stay. I just put it here for discussion as many other counters were being discussed. Lando can 2HKO most of the metagame, which is why this topic exists. It's not perfect, obviously Uturn is a possibility, but being able to switch into any attack on the main sets and outspeed + OHKO it makes it one of the better options.

    P.S: good luck getting Focus Blast to land twice in a row.
     
  17. omylord

    omylord Member

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    While Rock Polish Landorus is the best speed-boosting special sweeper in the game after Genesect was banned, I believe that the U-turn set is what pushes it over the edge just because that set has no counters, and with minimal support can very easily break down stall. The Pokemon in OU that can take the stupidly powerful, Sheer Force + recoil-less LO boosted Earth Power/Focus Blast (Gyarados, Zapdos, Landorus/-T/Gliscor, Celebi, Dragonite/Salamence, [email protected], Cresselia, Gengar, etc) are either weak to Bug, Ice, Rock (SR), or Dark (Pursuit). This means all Landorus needs in its arsenal are the exact 4 moves of Earth Power, Focus Blast, HP Ice, and U-turn. Provided that rocks are down, it doesn't really matter if the Landorus user mispredicts as opposing Gyarados or Zapdos switches in, as they have to eat SR damage and waste a turn recovering unless they want to risk dying to Landorus' next onslaught. In the case of [email protected], Cresselia, and Gengar, a simple U-turn -> Tyranitar/Scizor would spell doom to these Pokemon. While it is true that a lot of Pokemon carry U-turn and can perform the same combination, none has the ability to spam SF+LO boosted attacks the way Landorus did. The fact that it only takes neutral damage from SR and is unaffected by spikes only worsens the issue.

    Speaking of entry hazards, this is also what differentiates Landorus from the other stallbreaker in OU, Kyurem/Kyurem-B. Unlike Kyurem, Landorus can switch in and out more easily, and is not weak to Bullet Punch/Mach Punch, which frequency I believe is more common than Ice Shard/Aqua Jet just because of how prevalent Scizor/Breloom is. In addition, while Kyurem has the potential to be a complete deadweight in some games (I'm referring to its role as a stallbreaker, so don't mention Choice Scarf as an argument), like say vs. Sand Offense where everything virtually outspeeds or has priority and OHKOs it, Landorus can still contribute in some way aside from being a fantastic stallbreaker just because of how invaluable a Fighting resist and Ground immunity is. In this sense, Landorus is a much more low-risk high-reward Pokemon compared to Kyurem.

    I hope that I have added more points to the discussion as to why I think Landorus is broken, and if my stance is somehow unclear I am supporting its BAN. In the end of the day I still think it would've been much better if we can perform a complex ban as Dante suggested, as Landorus itself is still an integral part of the metagame that keeps things in check and Sand Force Landorus is perfectly fine to deal with. But heh looks like it'll never happen.
     
  18. The Tempest

    The Tempest Banned

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    Never in a hundred years.

    Things that check or outright counter it are commonplace in OU, most teams will have a pokemon, most likely 2, capable of knocking it out.

    3 sets are most common in OU: SD/RP Physical, RP Special, and Scarf (Most likely Physical, can't recall ever seeing a special one).

    Things that can check each:

    Mamoswine and Cloyster are the big ones.
    Scizor can knock out a weakened one with its Bullet punch
    Anything with a Scarf beats it (Sometimes you need a bit of extra damage, but these are pretty useful for cutting short its sweep) without a speed boost Keldeo, Salamence, Terrakion, Thundurus-T, Garchomp even Landorus-I. All outspeed the 331 mark, and while not all can KO they come pretty damn close (The Physicals need some prior damage).
    The Scarf set is very easily played around in my view, its main move being Earthquake is the main problem, if you have a pokemon immune to it (which you really should) you should be able to work round this fairly easily. Common sense is the key. Pursuit can even give it problems if a user comes in on a move it can take all day (IE Scizor on HP Ice or bulky Tyranitar on Stone Edge).

    Now, the special set. The one that most are whining about. The thing I use to my advantage is that there is no worry of a rock-type move, unless they decide on HP Rock over HP Ice for some reason. Jellicent walls it cold and Scald or sometimes Ice beam is a big threat to its life. Volcarona can take an Earth Power with ease and KO with HP Ice or Fire Blast. Gyarados sponges everything and can set up DD with impunity.

    I have barely scratched the surface here because I can't be bothered to do a full overview, but to summarise, it's typing isn't God-like, it's power is good but can still be checked, and using a Scarf cuts its power further.

    Verdict: No ban, ditch this pointless thread and look at banning Keldeo.
     
  19. Blue Star

    Blue Star New Member

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    I was reading the first anti-ban arguments, and wtf? "Ah, Landorus shouldn't be banned, it dies to common ice- and water-type moves!"? "Banning Landorus will make sand become unviable thus overpowering Sun and Rain!"?

    People, every pokémon have weakness, and that's not the overpowering factor. If it was, then should we unban like Mewtwo because it has a weakness to common U-urn and Shadow Ball, and, instead, ban Spiritomb and Elektross because they have no weakness? As for the second argument, Landorus has nothing to do with Sand teams rising, as its broken set(s) does not rely on sandstorm (though the residual damage helps).

    What makes Landorus broken is that it has massive power. It freaking OHKOes relatively bulky pokés like Scizor and Keldeo with a 100% accurate move, let alone frail ones. With SR support, it can also at least 2HKO 99% of the defensive pokémon in the metagame, including: Gliscor, Skarmory, Hippowdon, Forretress, Blissey, Jellicent, Rotom-W, Ferrothorn, etc.

    But then IT ALSO LEARNS U-TURN. If Landorus switches in on something that can't harm it, like Earthquakes, it's free to spam an overpowered move, or, if you pretend to use a pivot like Latios, it can U-turn away and rob all your momentum.

    It must be banned.
     
  20. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

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    Adding onto Blue Star (who I happen to think made some good points), it's not SANDSTORM that makes Landorus-I broken, it's the combination of Landorus + TYRANITAR that makes it broken.

    Tyranitar takes out just about ALL of Landorus's counters and that's the main problem. The sandstorm is just an extra Easter egg which makes killing easier.

    Also:
    Dear The Tempest,

    Saying that a Pokemon can be perfectly checked means nothing because that goes with ALL Pokemon, including Genesect!

    This is a bullshit argument that can be put onto anything.

    Also, Ice Shard is uncommon in the metagame, the only viable users being Mamo, some Cloyster, and the even more uncommon and over-hated Weavile. It is incredibly predictable and an easy switch to a counter like Forretres or Ferrothorn.

    All of the checks that you mentioned are very situational and sometimes get KOed before they can do anything because RP Special is mostly a late-game sweeper.
     
  21. Photoshop

    Photoshop The Student, A Cat

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    Landorus-I was for a long time in my eyes superior to Landorus-T because of it's unpredictability and momentum. Once it was given Sheer Force, Landorus was given the common set of a Life Orb with Earth Power, Focus Blast, and HP Ice. Normally users would see this and reply by using Celebi, Gyarados, Chansey, Gengar at times, and Latias/Latios. However, users would now start using U-Turn instead of Substitute, which makes it viable to use both it's great ATK stats to relinquish momentum for the opponent. For the most part, it also doesn't get killed as easily, being the priority of Extremespeed Lucario, Bullet Punch Lucario, and Sucker Punch Toxicroak.

    That being said, as it's not the epitome of Landorus being superb in Pokemon Wifi OU, it definitely should be banned from the current OU metagame as it is extremely viable with multiple sets to use. My vote is for Landorus-I to be banned.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 1, 2013
  22. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Plus the fact that we're never doing another complex ban besides Drizzle+Swift Swim, and even then that's mainly because it was done so long ago, the situation that called for it was pretty extreme, and would just be a waste of what BW time we have left to bring up again.

    About our OU tier basically being behind Smogon's with the exception of Kyurem-B(our lower tiers are another story), I could write a wall of text about that(and it wouldn't just be mindlessly defending PO and our OU leaders at that, they should know this) but this isn't the place to bring that up.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2013
  23. Tox

    Tox Active Member

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    Agreed, the majority of people want this banned, hold a vote by all means but seriously just getting rid of it would be much quicker and lead too the same out come.

    The metagame is just infinitely better with Landorus Incarnate gone.
     
  24. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    This suspect discussion, while it didn't descend into a complete farce unlike the Tornadus-T one, has still been poor. All you people complaining about how broken it is seem to think it can always switch in for free, is running every possible coverage move and U-Turn and can always set up impunity. But still, I'm in the minority and doubtless it will be banned even though it isn't remotely broken.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 1, 2013
  25. Scene

    Scene reverie

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    Landorus makes teambuilding difficult and has some amazing positives that make it seriously good in OU as most people above have gone through. Saying it's not remotely broken just doesn't add up, it is of course an opinion but when so many people have posted excellently detailed posts (most of the actually really good, experienced OU players) while you haven't really given anything like the amount of evidence or decent reasoning other than a list of things it can U-Turn on, so it's difficult to understand why you should be listened to over the other posts. It just looks like being different for the sake of being different. Landorus has few viable checks, can attack from either side of, has devastating power, excellent coverage and can run any of sub, RP or U-Turn to screw up obvious counter switchins. Not to mention physical is still usable to utterly destroy its counters with a strong U-Turn. It's quite clearly "remotely broken" and saying it's not makes it difficult to take you seriously.

    Landorus is extremely difficult to effectively counter and has incredible power and versatility like has been previously stated many times. My opinion is ban.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2013
  26. MUMU

    MUMU DNR KILLED IT

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    Actually,it don't make team building any harder than other common sweepers,and most people among the experienced ones said it's not broken,with detailed logical posts, although it can be said that it is broken,in the sense that is same for a lot of other pokemon, BW2 OU hardly have any attacking pokemon with safe switch in or full proof counters,most ou sweepers can 1hko/2hko everything with the right move,and to sweep,Rock polish set needs a turn to set up,which with life orb and priorities,cut it's sweep very short,U turn set is effective for surprise ko,and against some stall,but that's all.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 1, 2013
  27. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    OK I'll go into some more detail then. Since people are claiming its special sets make it broken, I'll be looking at them. What makes a broken Pokemon?

    Obscene power

    Landorus is no doubt extremely strong, but there are much more powerful Pokemon in OU. True it's fast as well, but in terms of sheer power it's far from top of the tree. An awful lot of offensive Pokemon in OU have no true counters: Hydreigon, Terrakion and Salamence to name but a few. It can sweep teams with ease once set up - again, so can Salamence, Garchomp, Gyarados, Terrakion and even Jirachi.

    Unbreakable

    Certainly not the case with Landorus.

    Makes a particular playstyle unviable

    Not really.

    Stall and semi stall have plenty of Pokémon that can survive an attack from Landorus and force it out, cripple it or outright KO (Jellicent, Celebi, pink blobs, bulky Gyarados, bulky Politoed). Sun Stall does have a hard time though.
    Balanced is in much the same boat as (Semi)Stall
    If Landorus gets the chance to set up, it can be devastating against hyper offensive teams. However, since they usually rely on keeping up the pressure non stop, getting it in in the first place is no easy feat. Its best chance is usually against something locked into the wrong move, or after something's gone down.

    I think it's an equal threat to every playstyle, and as such doesn't swing the balance either way.

    It's really hard to build your team with it in mind

    OK, coming onto the point about it being hard to team build against, that's not true.

    Pure stall team: Chansey. Can cripple with Toxic and stall out Focus Blast PP with Protect. Also serves as my wall and cleric, so I'm not making special concessions for Lando. Even able to switch in on Earth Power and HP Ice, providing only Stealth Rock is in play.
    Semi Stall team: Specially defensive Jellicent. Although it can't switch in, it can revenge kill it with ease with Ice Beam. Also serves as my check to Keldeo, so again no special concessions.
    Balanced: Bulkie Starmie. See Jellicent. Also serves as Rapid Spinner, so again no special concessions.
    Offensive/Hyper Offensive: [email protected] Both can survive any attack and OHKO with Surf or Draco Meteor. They could both also serve as my wallbreakers to soften up the opponent's team for, say Swords Dance Terrakion. So again, no special concessions.

    You don't have to build every team with it in mind. It has enough reliable checks and good revenge killers that make it not broken. It doesn't need to be banned - OU is perfectly fine with it in. The fact that it has no true counters can be said about an awful lot of offensive Pokémon in OU. The fact that it can sweep teams very well once set up can also be said about most sweepers in OU. The fact that it's very tough to crack once it's checks have been weakened enough, again not exclusive.

    And don't you dare bring up that it has teammates that can deal with its checks. SO DOES EVERY OTHER POKEMON!! That's basic teambuilding 101.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 1, 2013
  28. Tox

    Tox Active Member

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    The only point you really made here is Blissey and Chansey wall Landorus-I, which is true to some degree. However if Landorus is to just simply U-turn on these threats and go to another pokemon all momentum you had is lost.
    Bulky Starmie is 2HKOed, it cant switch in AND scald does not OHKO, so it loses, people don't use bulky Starmie to deal with Landorus-I ever really, so you're right it is not a special concession because it just doesn't work.
    As far as [email protected] go, yeah ok they can take a hit but usually Landorus-I will be paired with Tyranitar and the huge threat of Landorus will force players to keep Latis in and attack only for Tyranitar to trap and kill them. They can be relatively effective depending on how theyre played, but people wont confidently see them as a good way to deal with Landorus-I as HP ice still does good damage.

    Also, you're missing the point. Alot of pokemon in OU have no true counters and alot of pokemon in OU can set up sweep. Its rare both of these statements should be true about one pokemon and in the case of Landorus-I, they are.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 1, 2013
  29. JinLong88

    JinLong88 Golden Dragon

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    Just to put it out there, I don't think anybody is denying that Sheer Force Land-I is in the "top 10" of best Pokemon sets in Wifi OU.

    Reading through the thread, the main argument for it's banning is it's potential to run either U-Turn or Rock Polish.
    EP, FB, and HP Ice are given, and many would agree that Modest is the most threatening ability.

    I vote that Landorus-I is not banned, because of three main arguments:
    1. Land-I has trouble switching into many attacks.
    2. You can scout/predict around U-Turn.
    3. It's not any more difficult to deal with Land-I than some fellow OU powerhouses.

    Land-I has trouble switching in to many attacks, due to both it's average defensive typing and opposing Pokemon sets.
    While it is immune to electric and ground attacks, the common users of these attack types tend to carry water, ice, or
    neutral attacks (e.g. dragon) that severely hurts Land.
    The rest of Land's defensive typing only gives it one effective resistance, which is fighting.
    But fighting types can still predict the switch and cause havoc such as Conkeldurr with ice punch, rock gem Terrakion,
    and Breloom's bullet seed. Land's weaknesses to water and ice are common attacking types, and make it nervous around
    bulky water checks that are near full health. As a result, Land-I also doesn't provide much defensive synergy
    to it's team.

    About U-Turn:
    First of all, I don't think it's over-centralizing to use good Land checks such as Celebi, Latias, Rotom-W, Chansey, or Cresselia.
    These Pokemon are already beneficial specially defensive pivots to many teams that don't carry Land-I.
    Now, let's say opposing Land-I comes in on your Terrakion's CC, and you are going to switch. You have a Latias and Keldeo in the wings.
    You predict the U-Turn by switching in Keldeo, and now you've gained three advantages:
    1. Land takes LO damage, and nothing of yours died.
    2. Keldeo can now threaten many of Land's common sand teammates.
    3. It's very likely that the Land-I does not have Rock Polish, so now Keldeo and fast offensive teammates (Jolteon, Alakazam) can later scare or revenge kill Land-I.
    What If Landorus used Rock Polish as you switched out your Terrakion to Keldeo?
    It'll either switch out, and you keep your momentum or if your Keldeo is in the KO range, you can double switch to Latias, and Latias can proceed to calm mind + recover.

    From the above two points, comes my third:
    Many OU Pokemon are similar to Land-I, in that they have few checks, and seemingly un-counterable movesets.
    The examples that come immediately to my mind are Terrakion, Latios, Jirachi, and Dragonite.
    The reason they are still OU, is because they also have obvious weaknesses and lack good recovery stats & movesets.
    I argue that Land-I can be managed in a similar manner to how they are currently defeated.
    Though they don't have walls, Land-I and co. can be played around by teams that are designed to:
    1. scare them from coming out and/or setting up in the first place
    2. have pokes that can revenge them, or even use them as set-up bait.
    Though Land-I is a challenge to face, I argue that an average player can choose among many Pokemon to form a mix of scouting, bulk, and offense
    to successfully scare, check, and defeat Land-I. This is how Terrakion, Latios, etc. are dealt with and I don't see the difference with Land-I.

    (Now if you think Terrakion and the other pokes I mentioned should be banned too, then perhaps you have an issue with OU as a tier, which is a different discussion)

    -- JinLong88
     
  30. Luck>Skill

    Luck>Skill Well-Known Member

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    Answering to the last points brought up:

    Landorus needs a grand total of 5 different moves: Earth Power, Rock Polish, HP Ice, Focus Blast and U-Turn, it either runs Rock Polish or U-Turn

    no, that's not assuming landorus can run 5 different moves at once, it means that the rock polish set is a late game sweeper checked / countered by very few pokemon, and all of these tend to be U-Turn weak, or at the very least, easily trappable by pursuit

    CM jirachi is a lot worse as a sweeper, and any other Jirachi set isn't going to sweep. CM is "good" because so many people are unprepared for it, but overall Landorus is better because its walled / checked by less and only needs 3 moves to wreck most of OU, while Jirachi needs 1: Calm Mind 2: Substitute and now has only2 options as coverage. Expert Belt Jirachi with 4 moves (or 3 with Healing Wish) is INSANELY good but it can't sweep, nor it can afford the luxury to run U-Turn as you want to have the most coverage possible out of such a wonderful movepool, You can run CM 3 attacks and lose to Ferrothorn and any other faster EQ user (EQ is the most widely spread move in pkmn), and even with 3 moves you suffer from 4 mss because its STABs are so bad in OU, coverage wise

    Salamence can't sweep because it needs Outrage as DClaw is weak as balls, and Moxie would require it to 1) force a switch with DD 2) kill the pokemon in, which means your opponent switched in a Salamence weak pokemon, that is definitely not what happen in a regular match, and even if it happened, SDef Skarmory / Bronzong in Rain would wall it endlessly, as well as other stuff, max HP Tyranitar can take +1 Earthquake and OHKO back with its Rock STAB, and Flying / Dragon has a lot of weakness AND its SR weak, as well as being less physically bulky, meaning its a lot weaker to priorities

    Gyarados isn't that easy to sweep with, Rotom-W is everywhere and that's generally enough, Volt Switch being everywhere + Stealth Rock really shorten its lifespan, it's also really slow and easy to revenge kill

    Hydreigon seems really strong in theory but in practice it's not as good as I expected. I tried TONS OF different Hydreigon builds, with various teammates, with different playstyles, even when it tested good, it is still not as powerful as Landorus, -Def / Sdef hurt it a lot, and Dark isn't that good of a typing in this Fighting invested meta sadly

    also, I don't get your point in here:

    Chansey / Blissey are REALLY niche in nowadays OU, with all the fightspam, which means I can't slap them onto every stall team of mine and be like "oh great now Landorus-i doesnt beat me so I'm good to go, have you ever built a stall team? Chan / Bliss open up A LOT OF weaknesses, which is exactly what makes them "niche" pokemon. Which is also why most stall teams are the same nowadays, because that is about the only way to effectively use them, they also get literally raped by CBtar, not to mention that, if sand is up, Chansey dies to 2 SR switch ins, 1 focus blast and 1 earth power

    Sdef Jellicent is a very nice Pursuit fodder, and

    252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Jellicent: 164-192 (40.59 - 47.52%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    which means SR + 2 medium rolls = Jellicent is dead, I would consider Sand a "standard battle condition" because 1) Landorus + Ttar are often seen toghether 2) Jellicent is mostly used in bulky Sand teams (yes in rain teams too but stacking water types is a poor tactic generally), so Specially Bulky Jellicent is a shaky check at best, in the remote evenience Landorus has 1 layer of Spikes coupled with SR, Jellicent loses the 100% of the times (assuming it doesn't get Pursuit trapped by Ttar / Scizor)

    Bulky Starmie can't even switch in, like, at all:

    252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 261-308 (80.55 - 95.06%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    and don't tell me you use specially bulky Starmie, btw that is a OHKO with SR down most of the times, if you are really scared by damage rolls just get 5-10% damage up (sand or whatever works, Starmie is easily to bring down generally)

    Latwins gets pursuit'd, or uturned on

    Notice how

    1) I considered TIMID ROCK POLISH Landorus so far, which is arguably its worst set (Modest is better as it gives you more bulk and Timid is better on the U-Turn set)

    2) I mentioned U-Turn only at the end, vs the Latwins, both of which btw lose if they are not running Recover, as choiced latwins die to 2 SR rounds + HP Ice

    3) every single one of the things you mentioned are destroyed by CBtar

    sure, there are niche checks such as Virizion (which takes 30% from EP and 48-49% from HP Ice, has no recovery other than Giga Drain [don't even mention Synthesis like, at all], Gyarados (2HKOd by HP Ice after SR, has no recovery other than Rest, needs to be specially bulky in which case it also needs spin and weather support to actually beat Landorus), and other I am probably forgetting (Bronzong maybe, which has no recovery and dies to Focus Blast rather easily), Gengar (doesn't OHKO back, is slower after a RP, is 2HKOd easily by HP ice, can be U-Turned on and pursuit'd by Scarf Tyranitar)

    Still no U-Turn mentioned other than the small latwins reference, I could write another paragraph but it'd make my post unnecessarily long and I think my point is pretty clear
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2013
  31. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    I agree with gdragon88. There are many threats in OU that can be difficult to deal with depending on what set they run, but they can't run every set and it's possible to predict around all pokemon. There's pokemon like Venusaur that can sweep most of the metagame after a Growth, but it still has to deal with other weather, Heatran/Chansey and pokemon that can live any hit like Kyurem-B and Latias.

    Landorus for example rarely ever runs U-turn on the Sheer Force set, which means that pokemon like Latias and Celebi are solid counters opposed to what people say. If you use U-turn you have to sacrifice it's sweeping capabilities which is just not worth it. I don't think a lot of the people commenting on here have much experience in the OU metagame, because Landorus-I is nowhere near as hard to defeat as people make it out to be.
     
  32. MetalGross

    MetalGross gems…

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    What? U-Turn special Landorus is common, and yes you give up on its sweeping abilities, but you get a pokemon that can beat his common checks and grab the momentum at any time.
    Venusaur and Landorus are almost impossible to compare, since Venusaur needs Sun and a Growth to really be able to sweep, and will still be walled by Heatran, Dragonite and Latias who all can take a hit and KO back. Landorus on the other hand isn't relying on weather or needs to be at +2 Sp Atk to sweep teams, it only needs a speed boost.
    Comparing Venusaur with Landorus just doesn't work since they're very different.

    Landorus can really destroy opposing teams.
    If you want you can take a look at this calculator. http://honko.byethost8.com/coverage_calc.html
    If you give in Landorus with 3 Attacks the results are incredible. The only true counter to Landorus is Cresselia, and for the if you're running U-Turn it's just an easy switch out. Gyarados is 2nd on the list, and if you calc that with Stealth Rock and Sand next time it switches in it's an easy KO. U-Turn set can just U-Turn to gain the momentum again. 3rd on the list is Celebi, who already takes 32.92 - 39.35% from HP Ice. With Sand, Stealth Rock and a bit of prior damage Celebi can be 2HKOd. The U-Turn set OHKOs. The list after that are some UU pokes (Bronzong, Azelf, Heracross, Togekiss, Virizion) and Latias already takes 40.1 - 47.8% from HP Ice, not to mention how easily it's trapped by Tyranitar. Rotom-W gets 2HKOd by Focus Blast in Sand, and the list keeps going. While all of these pokes are great checks to Landorus, this is the list of pokemon of all tiers who can handle Landorus the best, and it's ridiculous since most of them will still lose.

    Playing against Landorus is really hard, since your checks get worn down really fast and Landorus's great bulk can always secure a late-game sweep. And I really don't get why people keep mentioning Scizor here since Scizor doesn't even come close to OHKOing Landorus while Lando has ~44% chance after rocks with Timid.


    252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 273-321 (79.59 - 93.58%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 177-208 (55.48 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    [/HIDE]
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2013
  33. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Could you people please stop bringing up Band TTar? Every Pokemon has teammates that can handle its checks. Volcarona is a deadly sweeper, yet walled by the pink blobs outside sun. Calm Mind Gothitelle can switch in on anything they do, trap them and KO them. Doesn't make Volcarona broken does it? You act as if Tyranitar stops all Landorus's checks cold - it doesn't.

    Chansey - Tyranitar won't like Toxic one bit, and Chansey can scout its moves with Protect. If it uses Superpower, it can simply switch out to a Fighting resist. While Crunch and Stone Edge do 2HKO (Crunch after Rocks). It can use Wish and Protect to stall out Stone Edge, and that's assuming it hits every time.
    Crunch from 252 Atk Adamant Choice Band Tyranitar on 4/252 Bold Eviolite Chansey: 45.5% - 53.7%
    Stone Edge from 252 Atk Adamant Choice Band Tyranitar on 4/252 Bold Eviolite Chansey: 56.7% - 67%[/HIDE]
    Gyarados - Yeah, you want to bring your Tyranitar in on a STAB Super Effective Waterfall?
    [email protected]: If they lack Surf, Tyranitar does beat them fairly easily. However, Surf from Specs Latios and Life Orb Latias will cleanly 2HKO 180/0 Tyranitar (Latios needs 2 rounds of Stealth Rock to guarantee the 2HKO)
    Surf from 252 SAtk Timid Choice Specs Latios on 180/0 Tyranitar in Sandstorm: 56.7% - 67%
    Surf from 252 SAtk Timid Life Orb Latias on 180/0 Tyranitar in Sandstorm: 40.9% - 48.7% Possible 2HKO after Stealth Rock [/HIDE]
    Jellicent: While Tyranitar shrugs off Ice Beam, you still want to risk switching it on on Scald? If Tyranitar gets burnt it's dead weight.
    Celebi: While Tyranitar laughs at specially defensive Celebi, offensive Celebi OHKOs both Landorus and Band Tyranitar (the latter after Rocks) with Leaf Storm.
    Leaf Storm from 252 SAtk Modest Life Orb Celebi on 180/0 Tyranitar in Sandstorm: 93.8% - 110.9% Clean OHKO after Stealth Rock. Even without, still a good chance. [/HIDE]

    I can see where you guys chanting BAN! are coming from, but personally I've never had that much of an issue with Landorus-I. But hey, if it makes you happy ban it. But if we do ban it, can we give it another chance in X&Y OU?
     
  34. Luck>Skill

    Luck>Skill Well-Known Member

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    Only cover legends are instabanned when a new gen comes out

    Offensive celebi is 2HKOd by HP Ice, and OHKOd by U-Turn, defensive Celebi is OHKOd by U-Turn, and needs to be close to full health to take 2 HP ices + SR

    Specs Latios loses to Landorus

    LO Latias doesn't run 252 Satk, it runs a bit of bulk generally else you are using a worse LO Latios, since the bulk difference isn't that big if you don't invest a bit in HP

    Gyarados dies to SR + 2 HP Ice unless specially defensive

    another big difference is the fact that, while CBtar is a great poke, CM Gothitelle is REALLY bad, but you seem to just not understand it, maybe you are the one that doesn't have much experience in OU............

    Lum Tyranitar exists, and double switches exist as well, slow u-turns (or fast u-turn on forced switches), all of these screw any poke you brought up, and defensive Gyarados (provided it isn't sleeping, because apparently your Gyarados has infinite health) Waterfall from the defensive set won't even come close to a OHKO on Tyranitar
     
  35. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

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    Back on topic with Landorus-I, no one seems to realize when it should be used. U-Turn sets are mid-game, Rock Polish sets are late-game.

    In mid-game, U-Turn scouts out all threats and proceeds to sweep the slower half of the team in the end.

    By late-game (I know from experience using it), your opponent is too weakened to fight back with anything unless they have priority (priority won't OHKO unless Aqua Jet or Ice Shard, both of which mentioned uncommon), a wall healthy enough to stomach hits (probably too worn out by then to work), or something faster and strong enough (which is impossible when talking about the Rock Polish set).

    Landorus-I is NOT just told to be broken because it is super-strong or ultra-versatile. It is considered broken because it is a checkmate Pokemon that utilizes its team members to weaken everything and THEN kill them all at once.

    [SECRET]Yeah, you can say that about anything like Thundurus-T or Jolteon, but Landorus-I is harder to deal with one-on-one than both of them.[/SECRET]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 2, 2013
  36. Poli

    Poli Member

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    252 SpAtk Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs 252 HP/236 SpDef Celebi: 36,63% - 43,07%
    Entry hazards damage: 50
    After entry hazards: 198 - 224 (49,01% - 55,45%)
    Possible HP Damage: 148, 148, 150, 152, 154, 156, 158, 160, 162, 162, 164, 166, 168, 170, 172, 174
    3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
    ^ Modest Landorus (as RP should be) and Calm Celebi

    4 Atk Life Orb Landorus U-turn vs 252 HP/0 Def Celebi: 79,21% - 93,07%
    Entry hazards damage: 50
    After entry hazards: 370 - 426 (91,58% - 105,45%)
    Possible HP Damage: 320, 324, 328, 332, 336, 340, 344, 348, 352, 356, 360, 364, 368, 372, 372, 376
    41,02% chance to OHKO
    ^ Naive Landorus and still Calm Celebi, SR are necessary for the OHKO but js looking at stats there is an abyss between RP and U-Turn Landorus in terms of usage... A really deep abyss

    Also:
    252 SpAtk Life Orb Landorus Focus Blast vs 88 HP/0 SpDef Gyarados: 31,44% - 37,11%
    Entry hazards damage: 88
    After entry hazards: 199 - 219 (56,37% - 62,04%)
    Possible HP Damage: 111, 112, 114, 115, 116, 118, 119, 120, 122, 123, 124, 126, 127, 128, 129, 131
    3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
    ^Still Modest Landorus and still a 3HKO yes even with Rocks

    252 SpAtk Life Orb Landorus Focus Blast vs 88 HP/0 SpDef Gyarados: 28,61% - 33,71%
    Entry hazards damage: 88
    After entry hazards: 189 - 207 (53,54% - 58,64%)
    Possible HP Damage: 101, 102, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 116, 117, 118, 119
    3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
    ^Naive Landorus .-.

    Without Rocks Gyarados has some chances of being 4HKOd, so does Celebi facing Modest Landorus

    EDIT: All the calcs should be correct ;)
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2013
  37. Nikitas

    Nikitas Member

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    Just that you forgot Sandstorm, Ttar in sandstorm is only 3hko by that Giga Drain, gg. Also, this celebi spread sucks, it does nothing exceptionally apart from having the most strange ev spread ever seen.
    Also, if you assume a neutral Sp.Atk Nature on Lando, then assume it has U-Turn too. If you assume a positive Sp.Atk Nature on Lando, then assume RP. And this Celebi, like nearly all, is 2hko after switching into SR twice with sand up - if you dont like sand then lets just assume it took a single Vswitch (even the most sp defensive ones).
    I also do not get why you focus half of your post into explaining how Latias and Celebi can beat Ttar. Ofc they can but this requires both good prediction on your part and no misconception (aka, choice scarf ttar just slayed u coz u r overjoyed that you predicted correctly).
    I suggest that instead of taking isolated examples to support your arguements (this goes to both the pro and anti ban), try to get a hold of the wider point of view.
    Landorus is a great pokemon with a decent typing both defensively and offensively as well as moderate defenses for a sweeper Also, add to that a pretty nice movepool and a good enough speed stat and even if it is indeed deemed broken, lets not make it look like it was Rayquaza.
     
  38. Professor Oak

    Professor Oak same Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep

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    FireyVoid's point was that this is Landorus's Suspect Thread. It isn't "Landorus + Tyranitar", or "Landorus with Sand" or anything like that. It's Landorus. His post was clearly made in a way to make a joke out of some of the posts in this thread that did state the following (note that I'm paraphrasing) "Tyranitar can remove all of Landorus' checks and counters... it should be banned."

    That does not allow you all to think he's asking for bans on every single Pokémon, or that he's asking to unban Arceus, or something like that.

    That I've just had to delete 13 posts that are completely irrelevant to the discussion of Landorus, and hand out 4 infractions is ridiculous.


    Improve the quality of this thread, or I'm closing it, and me and BR will decide the fate of Landorus on our own.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2013
  39. phucvn

    phucvn Cheap player

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    I can't say I didn't see this one coming. I mean, stuffs went wrong the second that guy put in calcs about Latias vs Tyranitar.
    Imma start off the totally relevant series of posts right here.
    As stated in my previous post(s), the 2 Special Attacking sets are the reason why Landorus is deemed broken. I'm not gonna repeat myself here, so I'll just skip right ahead. As for any offensive threats, Landorus has its signature traits. In this case, we're talking about Sheer Force and Life Orb, which allows Landorus to effectively 2HKO most unresisted targets and not super-invested in bulk. It also has an amazing set-up move in Rock Polish and a scouting move in U-turn, which makes countering it rather difficult.
    However, those traits aren't enough to break Landorus. Like any other, it has its list of checks and counters. Imma name them again right here Defensively:Celebi, Rotom-W, Latias, Gyarados, etc; Offensively: Gengar, Latios, Dragonite, Heatran, Starmie. Those are the common used Pokemon that can effectively check Landorus (I mean, Cresselia checks Landorus). As you can see Landorus fails to 2HKO any of the defensive checks with its Standard moves. Now don't bark about how Landorus running U-turn making Celebi a liability. It's basically the same as running Grass Knot on Thundurus just to get past Gastrodon. It's how a Pokemon adapt to its surroundings and counter its, well, counters. Running U-turn means it's usually giving up Rock Polish, leaving it unable to sweep most teams because of the popular base 108 speed in OU. Choosing Rock Polish might allow it to outpaced the whole tier, but it means nothing if it can't OHKO them, as its 2 weaknesses (Water and Ice) are ridiculously common.
    Now, some might argue, "So you're saying that by running U-turn, Landorus hurts Stall, whereas running Rock Polish lets it hurt HO?. NO, HELL NO. I'm analysing the situation of RP Landorus vs HO:While its true that once set up, it can give HO a whole lot of trouble, it's true for every set-up sweepers out there. Landorus should never find room for setting versus an HO team, and if anybody lets it, then they simply suck. Besides, while its true that Landorus resists Mach Punch, It's still neutral to the popular Bullet Punch/ExtremeSpeed, so it's not that hard to simply put an end to its sweep, heck, it even has to used HP Ice against Gengar. As for U-turn Landorus vs Stall, like I said, it's just a way for Landorus to get past the likes of Celebi and Latias, but to a small extent only. Landorus isn't that mixed wall breaking beast that Salamence used to be in gen 4, it's U-turn does average damage at best, and the only thing it "severely dent" is Celebi, who can Recover off as it switches out anyway. Landorus simply can't break stall, and if you find your Celebi getting fucked, you might as well change it to Cress or Gyarados or something. And don't even start the whole "Landorus easily switches in to an apropriate counter" crap, that's the whole point of the move U-turn, and we're over that already.
    Overall, Landorus is indeed a powerful force in OU, however, it never achieved that "broken quality" that Thundurus, Genesect and Tornadus-T had. I vote NO BAN for Landoru-I, I can tell that if we ever suspect it, I'll still be voting no ban.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2013
  40. JinLong88

    JinLong88 Golden Dragon

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    THIS is the best post I've read on this thread so far. Well said!

    Also I love your example of correlating NastyPlot/GrassKnot Thunderus-T & RockPolish/U-Turn Landorus-I
    (though technically celebi is a lot more common than gastrodon)

    Though it can dent stall, I agree that it can't single-handedly beat it. In the Celebi/Rotom-W/Heatran core, the first two checks Landy well (once you scout for u-turn, which any good player should do). And then Chansey does very well when accompanied by bulky Politoed.

    I'll just add that Landorus-I doesn't get a ton of opportunities to switch in and spam Rock Polish, since it doesn't resist fire or grass attacks (while dragons do) and it's weak to water. Just as importantly, it only has ONE effective resistance, which leaves it to be easily worn down by neutral attacks.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2013
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