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[BW2] Landorus-I Suspect Discussion

Discussion in 'Gen 5 Discussion' started by Halsey, Jul 26, 2013.

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  1. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Landorus using U-Turn is nothing like Thundurus using Grass Knot. U-Turn is all around a utility move that can be used in virtually any situation, and the simple fact that it takes out/weakens Celebi only adds to its usefulness. It's certainly not the answer to all of its problems, but the move itself opens up chances to build momentum. On the other hand, Grass Knot was completely situational and pretty much only for Gastrodon, and Thundurus had better options to run over it.

    Even when comparing Nasty Plot thund vs RP lando, they're two completely different sets. Landorus already has that immediate power due to Sheer Force so it doesn't need Nasty Plot to sweep, which in turn makes it harder in general to revenge. Of course there's the problem with getting the boost, but when comparing the two that part doesn't matter since you assume they've successfully grabbed it.

    If anything, those points actually work against anti-ban arguments.
     
  2. JinLong88

    JinLong88 Golden Dragon

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    But Landorus also gets recoil every time it U-Turns, which turns off people from depending on it.
    Between U-turn/HP Ice recoil, potential for Focus Miss, it's lack of resistances, and Bullet Punch/Extremespeed,
    it's hard to keep Landorus healthy. You pretty much sacrifice bulk for momentum, in U-turn's case.

    And I have to disagree with you on the second point as well.
    When it comes to suspect discussions, I don't think it's right to assume that the Pokemon has already grabbed the boost.
    The ease at which a Pokemon can set up or not, is very important.
    One could argue that Thunderus-T takes about the same effort of getting a Nasty Plot in, than Landorus does with Rock Polish.
    On one hand TT has a Stealth Rock weakness, but on the other it shares Landorus's fighting resistance, while also resisting steel and grass, not being weak to water, and only being 2x weak to ice.
    Add to the fact that TT can use Electric+Ice offense with Elec STAB, and Landorus is overall only a tad more powerful than TT.

    I'd like to add that Landorus-I needs teammates that can weaken all of it's checks on the opposing team. At near full health, many checks that have a neutral resistance to ground are not OHKOed by EP.

    ----

    By the way, I'd like to make an observation about suspecting and banning.
    I believe most people realize this already, but I just want it to be mentioned here nonetheless.
    Just keep in mind when you are suspecting Pokemon in a heavily offensive tier like Wifi OU,
    that banning a Pokemon will essentially remove a check for another one.
    I'm definitely not saying that no Pokemon should be suspected, but just have a little foresight about
    the potential cycle of suspects in the future and how that will shape the metagame.
    For instance, I believe the banning of Tornadus-T removed another check for Landorus-I, though
    I still think Landy is manageable nonetheless.
    Also, it's only two months until X&Y (yay!), and the Landy issue seems pretty split so far,
    thus my opinion is that for those who don't like him, you only have to deal with him for a relatively short timespan
    before the revamping of the whole tier (which I think is quite likely).
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2013
  3. MewTheDestroyer

    MewTheDestroyer God

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    Landorus-I is a great Pokemon, and it's possibly the largest threat in OU. It can run many sets and they all are deadly in their own way. But, Landorus-I isn't banned due to a few things.
    1. It can't run every set. This is possibly the largest set back to Landorus, because if it runs fully Physical, Skarmory, Ferrothorn (To an extent), Rotom-W (to an extent), and Bulky Politoed are all Pokemon that stops this set fairly easily. Now Life Orb Sheer Force RP Landorus is the harder one to stop, because of many Pokemon not being able to take an Earth Power/Focus Blast. But, a few Pokemon like Sash Mamoswine (assuming sash is intact), Rotom-W (to a very slight extent), the pink blobs, and Vaporeon can check this set somewhat well.
    2. 4 move syndrome. Basically, the Sheer Force set must pick between Substitute. HP Ice, Rock Polish, and Psychic. This is a huge set back because all of these moves play a huge roll with that set.

    That's my mindset with Landorus, so I say keep it.
     
  4. ZodiaK

    ZodiaK Get the fuck off my porch

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    I wanted to paraphrase a recurring statement I'm seeing: " The meta has all kinds of broken things, therefore Landorus-I is not broken because I am comparing it to the rest of the broken things."

    If the meta has multiple broken things, it does not mean that something being discussed is "not broken" because it very well could be, and so could those other "broken" things you are comparing it to. If you wish to create a better metagame, you have to start by correcting the "broken" issues at hand. One issue after another until the meta achieves an ideal stability/balance. Otherwise, disqualifying and neglecting these issues because there are "other" issues will just stagnate this meta even further.

    Some people have stated things like: "hydreigon(example threat) is un-counterable..yadayada.." well... hydreigon is not the suspect discussion at hand ATM because it isn't as much of an imminent and omnipotent threat that lurks the meta with high usage. Although let's say "broken X, Y, and Z" pokemon are banned and then Hydreigon becomes this new present threat, it may then be time for a suspect discussion on that issue. Again, the main issue is: we need to start somewhere with correcting metagame issues as the current wifi ou meta is quite unstable to say the least.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2013
  5. MUMU

    MUMU DNR KILLED IT

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    Mostly true,although focus sash is not a very reliable check since it breaks from hazards and prior damage,and landorus use U turn more than Psyshic.

    Actually,when a post is saying " The meta has all kinds of broken things, therefore Landorus-I is not broken because I am comparing it to the rest of the broken things." it don't mean landorus I is broken,at least,it certainly isn't uber worthy broken ,the point is,Rock polish has 4 move slot syndrome,and U turn gives up sweeping capability for momentum,also,it's 2 weakness are both very common,and it don't resist much of common priority moves,all of this together stop it from being broken. Also,the metagame seems quite stable now,any change will likely start lowering the number of viable strategies.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2013
  6. Luck>Skill

    Luck>Skill Well-Known Member

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    a poke doesn't have to be a sweeper to be broken, so I don't see what's the point of saying "the U-Turn set gives up sweeping capability for momentum"
    having momentum in this metagame is much better than being able to sweep mid / late game, but then again, it depends on your team as well, whether U-Turn or Rock Polish is better

    also can you stop bringing up Psychic and mentioning 4 mss, landorus does NOT suffer from that, it's either

    Landorus (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sheer Force
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
    Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
    - U-turn
    - Earth Power
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Focus Blast

    or

    Landorus (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sheer Force
    EVs: 40 HP / 252 SAtk / 216 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Rock Polish
    - Earth Power
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Focus Blast

    psychic hits only gengar (and heracross, whose usage is about as low as Psychic's and therefore shouldn't even be considered, same for Virizion that is 2HKOd by HP Ice anyway)
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2013
  7. Kumiho

    Kumiho Silhouettes

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    How come you use 216 Speed EVs? Wouldn't 188 Speed suffice? Not tryin to say that your spread is shit or anythin, I'm just curious. ~:0
     
  8. JinLong88

    JinLong88 Golden Dragon

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    I agree that the discussion shouldn't be distracted from Landorus-I by elaborating on other OU pokes.
    However, in any suspect discussion, it's still important to judge a Pokemon by how it fares against other top Pokemon in it's tier. When a good comparison argument is made, the point should be that some methods on how to beat other powerful Pokemon can be applied to beating the Pokemon being discussed.

    One of the issues is that many define "broken" as a Pokemon with no true counters. But the 5th gen OU metagame is not the same as 5th gen lower tiers, or 4th gen OU: it has been proven that many 5th gen OU pokemon with little or no true counters can still be checked, played around and defeated, with only a moderate amount of effort.

    In my opinion, Landorus-I and Terrakion are similar in that while they have few counters, there are still many strategies that check them, thus why they are OK in OU and should not be banned. I argued in my earlier posts why Landorus has many checks, it's a combination of: a lack of resistances and susceptibility of being worn down by neutral attacks, the consequential failure to have opportunities to set up rock polish, and the opposing strategy of scouting for its moveset and bringing in the right Pokemon to deal with it. From this argument, Landorus is in the same category of top-notch OU pokes, and thus it can't be argued that it de-stablizes the metagame any more than it's brethren does.

    Now if you happen to think that the top OU pokes as a whole, and their playstyles, are the reason for de-stablizing the metagame, that's an entirely different discussion. The suspect discussion of Landorus-I is relative to the playstyles of the OU metagame that have already been seen over the past year, and is not relative to an 'idealized' version of a future metagame. Whether the OU metagame is currently stable or not, is still totally up for debate. (Plus, the whole metagame is probably going to change when X&Y come out in 2 months). I'll just add that many people would argue that the current OU metagame is more stable now, than when Genesect and Tornadus-T were still around. But let's try to keep this discussion to Landorus-I, which in my opinion is not broken, due to the many factors it has to deal with.

    ----

    Luck>Skill, I think you meant "Sheer Force", not "Sand Force" xD
    And I personally still think U-Turn can be baited and scouted around.
    Once you know it has it, then it doesn't have RP and you can take care of it with faster Pokemon.
    If it has RP, then it's checks can deal with it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2013
  9. ThePikaBloo

    ThePikaBloo New Member

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    To outspeed those 188 EV Landorus which havent gotten a RP up yet
     
  10. MUMU

    MUMU DNR KILLED IT

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    Maybe,but since it's been put as suspect,nearly everyone who wants it banned are saying it is broken as a sweeper,U turn set is far from suspect able anyway,even with momentum, it's less effective with specific use, though more useful than psyshic,which,is also used for special defence conkeldurr.

    P.S. I think you meant to put Sheer force as ability.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2013
  11. Weiss

    Weiss Member

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    Now that somebody has mentioned this I would like to pick up on it as well. There is a cycle going one where you ban something and then something else becomes (seemingly) broken.

    Really, you could go on banning forever, basically, without ever achieving a balanced OU tier. Simply banning the degenerate pokemon like Shadow Tag Shandera should be enough.

    I could see an argument for banning pokemon in order to freshen up the tier a little bit as things do get stale after a while, but then we should use a different approach altogether and acknowledge that this is what we are trying to do.

    Until then, I will just continue to support bans (unless they are ludicrous, like this one), so people may see how silly this gets after a while. I just hope Gen 5's banning spree will serve as a lesson for how we approach Gen 6...

    I hope some sort of thread will be opened to discuss the philosophy we have towards banning pokemon.

    ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Back on the Landorus topic, I see a lot of people arguing that it's so hard to counter/check, but the ladder is not being overrun by Landorus nor is it causing any form of centralization. Sure, neither did Deoxys, but I don't think the two can be compared. Really, Landorus IS easily checked unless you use rock polish, but that sacrifices a moveslot and hopes to set up at one point AND that the opponent does not still have pokemon to beat it, because 3 moves do not provide foolproof coverage.

    There are more pokemon out there that don't have an abundance of counters and checks so I still don't really get why Landorus who does have issues, especially in the speed department, would receive a suspect discussion. I'm going to try out the pokemon on a couple of teams again and see if that changes my mind.

    Until then I really don't feel like we should ban it.

    One more question to everyone in this thread: say we do ban or suspect it and do a temp ban...would that really impact how you build teams or prepare for the meta? This thing does not overcentralize in any way, I really don't see what good banning would even do in the big picture, we'd just be moving on to the next target.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2013
  12. cosmicfinch

    cosmicfinch New Member

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    I feel the need to chime in. Its rare I do on these discussions.

    Lando is just another poke who gets lumped into the prep we must go through when building any team.
    Do I have a check to Dragonite, Salamence, Garchomp, Latis? Most every team runs a powerful dragon, and you have to prep for them.
    Landorus also can't switch into much safely. He resists what electric fighting and ground? All the common moves hit him pretty hard.
    You can make the argument, ya but once you lose your check he can sweep so easily. That's part of the game is it not?

    Instead of banning all these pokemon, why not bring back all the ou stat pokemon back to ou and see how the game does when all these pokemon who really don't belong in ubers come back to ou.
    Im looking at you excadrill, blaziken and genesect.
     
  13. Luck>Skill

    Luck>Skill Well-Known Member

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    by the same logic we can just bring back every pokemon to OU, hell, just run max defense rest tyranitar and you got ho-oh checked, should we free ho-oh?

    and with ho-oh free skymin is easily checked, so we can free that as well

    then in comes Groudon, I mean, just run Cresselia / Claydol / Landorus-T and you have basically every Groudon set covered, Claydol spins too!!!!!

    or you could also free Giratina in conjunction with Groudon and Ho-Oh since they check eachother decently, but...seriously? Do you know how bad the metagame would be? I do because I played in the skymin / darkrai OU meta!

    I seriously don't get the logic of most posters in this thread, for once most dragons share checks so having like, 2 answers to dragons is enough to cover basically every one of them, and you can check dragons both offensively and defensively, some of them are SR weak, others are spikes weak, and they generally aren't as bulky as Landorus (saving the latwins and Garchomp, Dragonite is about as bulky iirc)

    the only way to offensively check landorus is Ice Shard, which is a shabby way to do so, or get a surprise kill with like ScarfTran, while defensively the limited number of checks (that were already mentioned thousands of times in the thread previously) struggle to deal with the U-Turn set, which you can surely scout for, but then you can't always send out say, Heatran on Landorus pretending it will use U-Turn, all the things that resist bug are generally O/2HKO'd by EP / Focus Blast which makes them shaky checks at best (which is the main problem)
     
  14. Hannah

    Hannah Come a little closer

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    You're forgetting the master counter Shedinja that walls both sets.

    Run Sunny Day and X-Scissor and it dismantles the T-tar/Landy core.

    Well, on a little more serious note. I don't really think Landorus-I is broken in OU. If you run the Rock Polish set, it leaves you open to get walled and set up on by a plethora of checks. If you run U-turn you get easily revenge killed, and residual damage plays a factor since you're trying to preserve momentum as well as hit hard. You can't always U-turn on a predicted switch, then instantly trap it with Tyranitar. That's just lame arguing.

    You say that pairing it up with Tyranitar is what pushes it over the edge of being broken, but that's how offensive cores work. Alone, Landorus isn't as gamechanging as you advertise it to be.

    It's just annoying how whenever you argue on Landorus' sake you seem to have full knowledge of your opponents sets, predict every switch with U-turn, then perfectly trap your opponent with Tyranitar. That happening again and again for all battles. Maybe you can pull that off when your tourban finally ends, but you need to quit theorymonning Landorus and expect me to believe that it's broken in OU.

    Swallow that fact that OU has shifted into a hyper offense based playstyle. Landorus just fits in well.
     
  15. Luck>Skill

    Luck>Skill Well-Known Member

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    Shedinja still loses to Tyranitar, even if you are joking get your facts straight, at least say that SDef Pelipper takes on Landorus-I, has Roost and isn't trapped by Ttar, which also fears Scald Burns =/

    Why is everyone in this thread continuing to mention Landorus "plethora of check" when

    1) I don't know what your definition of plethora is, the last pokemon of which I have heard having a plethora of checks as an argument to not being broken was Lucario in DPP despite having very few surefire counters such as: Max Def RestTalk Gyarados which also wasn't exactly that good at it, Max Def Hippowdon and Max Def Skarm (both of which took >80% from +2 CC), but had about 15-20 checks among common sets (ScarfTran / Gengar / Rotom-W-H / ScarfTar / EP Celebi / Fire Punch or Psychic Jirachi, Flygon, offensive Gyarados, Dragonite, Gliscor, other stuff I don't remember but I already mentioned about 15 checks and soft counters) while what can check Landorus? Celebi, Gyarados, Rotom-W, Bronzong, Gengar, Virizion, Latias, Latios and? I see 8 pokes, 2 of them are UU (which doesn't make them bad pokemon, but them not being common means that they shouldn't be considered as much as the OUs, sure, Virizion is fantastic in the current meta, and Bronzong is a ok pokemon as of now, but heh...), and most of them lose to U-Turn

    2) Landorus doesn't necessarily need Tyranitar, Pursuit isn't the only way to kill Celebi / [email protected] etc you know, and no, I am not necessarily pairing it up with say, Weavile (that is a good pokemon and should be used more in OU), you can just run, say, a CB Scizor with U-Turn which happens to get a free U-Turn on most of Landorus' "checks" gaining you back momentum and some damage, pair it with hazards and residual racks up really fast for Landorus to actual sweep, unless you want to spend your whole time sending it your counter and clicking recovery move, in which case you are just asking to either get critted or predicted

    Also I don't get how is getting Landorus in hard, ever head of slow Volt/Turn? Sdef Rotom-W / CBzor can easily grab it a free switch (definitely a uncommon sight in the OU metagame), and plenty other U-turners / Volt Switchers can just force a switch on their turn move and get in Landorus for free (BP / U-Turn Celebi, U-Turn Mew, Jirachi, Azelf, Forretress, Infernape, Landorus-T, Gliscor, Zapdos, Xatu, Thundurus-T, all of them can create the optimal switch conditions for Landorus that can then proceed to do what I already mentioned tons of times

    Also, please, stop mentioning how well HO teams deal with Landorus, people might enjoy to run stall / balance as well...

    EDIT:

    Okay I just read this part

    Maybe when you will actually beat me in a bo3 and get in a smogon wcop finals (and win your match) you will be allowed to fire idiotic shots at me like this, I don't call out people on their battling skills because I find it childish and immature (also even if you're not exceptional you can hold a great opinion, just like being a very strong battler doesn't mean your opinion is right, or even well put toghether) but since you want to play dirty, I can as well :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2013
  16. MUMU

    MUMU DNR KILLED IT

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    Yup,exactly,all true. :) (Besides the fun part with shedinja)



    1.About your first part,You answered the first yourself,though there is gyarados too,and shamin (though rare in ou)
    2.For the second part,the same can be said for a lot of other sweepers too,that don't make landorus I broken.

    And,just saying,a decent stall team can beat it's u turn set with some predictions.
     
  17. Weiss

    Weiss Member

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    That's the point, this meta isn't bad because Landorus is overcentralizing anything, so why bother banning it? It has no significant impact on the choices people make when building teams. It's powerful, sure, but I'd argue that pokemon like Kyurem and Keldeo are far more troublesome than Landorus. That pokemon are hard to counter doesn't mean they're broken, this has been repeated by many people. I'd like to try the fire bird, btw, seems more interesting than what's happening right now.
     
  18. phucvn

    phucvn Cheap player

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    Pretty much what @MUMU said. Also, @Luck>Skill, did you even read my post cuz pretty much every answer to your concerns can be found in it. Also, the only one that loses to U-turn is Celebi, cuz the [email protected] outspeeds Landorus.
    I really can't see why there are arguments about stuffs like many pokemon creates optimal switch-ins for Landorus and allows it to wreck. EVERY SINGLE DAMN SWEEPER CAN DO THE EXACT SAME THING (that is to set up and sweep if you haven't figured it out). Landorus is just another offensive pokemon in an offensive tier with its unique traits. It needs prediction to get past its counters. It's not like it can outlast them (Tornadus-T) or anything like that.
     
  19. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    I think Landorus is in a similar boat to Jirachi - no Pokémon can reliably counter (or even check) every Jirachi set. Magnezone walls Scarf Jirachi hard (unless it's locked into Fire Punch) and can 2HKO with HP Fire. But the Offensive Calm Mind set OHKOs with HP Fire/ Ground at +1. Likewise, while there is no Pokémon that can counter (or even check, really) every Landorus each set has its specific checks and counters that make it not broken IMO. To prove that I'll look at its 3 most popular sets and what checks and counters they have. (according to Source for sets):

    No. 1 set:
    Landorus @ Life Orb
    Modest Nature
    Trait: Sheer Force
    EV: 4 HP, 252 SAtk, 252 Spd
    Rock Polish
    Earth Power
    Focus Blast
    Hidden Power Ice

    Checks & Counters:
    Chansey: can cripple it with Toxic while using Wish and Protect to stall out Focus Blast's PP.
    Bulky Dragon Dance Gyarados: Counters it. Even with Stealth Rock down, it can switch in with no fear of a 2HKO and OHKO in return with Waterfall.
    Hidden Power Ice from 252 SAtk Modest Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus on 88/0 Gyarados: 28.3% - 33.4% 3HKO.
    Focus Blast from 252 SAtk Modest Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus on 88/0 Gyarados: 31.4% - 37.1% 3HKO.
    Waterfall from 248 Atk Adamant Gyarados on 4/0 Landorus: 95.9% - 112.9%. Guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock or 1 round of Life Orb recoil. [/HIDE]
    Specially defensive Jellicent: Immune to Focus Blast, resists HP Ice and if Stealth Rock isn't down (which is a big if I accept) can survive 2 Earth Powers with Leftovers. OHKOs in turn with Ice Beam.
    Offensive Celebi: Can reliably revenge kill it with Leaf Storm, since it's not OHKOd by Hidden Power Ice and resists Earth Power and Focus Blast. Can't switch in since HP Ice will 2HKO
    Latios: See Celebi, only with Draco Meteor/Surf in place of Leaf Storm
    Offensive Latias: See Latios
    Mamoswine: Revenge kills with Ice Shard, but will be OHKOd by Focus Blast and Earth Power so can't switch in.[/HIDE]

    1 Counter, 5 good checks and 1 OK check. All completely viable, so no gimmicks or special concessions needed.

    No. 2
    Landorus @ Choice Scarf
    Naive Nature (+Spd -SDef)
    Trait: Sand Force
    EV: 252 Atk, 4 SAtk, 252 Spd
    U-Turn
    Earthquake
    Stone Edge
    Hidden Power Ice

    Checks & Counters:
    Physically defensive Skarmory: Walls it to hell and back while it can stall it out with Toxic. Hidden Power Ice and Sand Force boosted Stone Edge can't even 3HKO.
    Choice Scarf Keldeo: Even with Stealth Rock and a layer of Spikes down, Keldeo can switch in, outrun and OHKO back with Surf. A Sand Force boosted Earthquake maxes out at 82.4%
    Bulky Rotom-W: Outside Sandstorm, can switch in with no fear of a 2HKO and OHKO back with Hydro Pump or cripple with Will-O-Wisp. Sand Force boosted Stone Edge will 2HKO after Stealth Rock though, so it has to be careful if Sandstorm is raging
    Mamoswine: Does much better against this set. Can switch in on anything with no fear of a OHKO and OHKO back with Ice Shard. Sand Force boosted Earthquake maxes at 80.9%, so can survive if only Stealth Rock is up.
    Conkeldurr: Can survive Sand Force boosted Earthquake and OHKO back with Ice Punch. Can't switch in though, since Earthquake will 2HKO.[/HIDE]

    2 Full Counters, 1 superb check, 1 great check and 1 OK check. Again all viable Pokes so you're not dredging up from the low tiers. Please no on say "it can just U-Turn out to something else." Being able to switch out into a counter is something any Pokémon can do (unless it's been trapped). Having U-Turn does help this, but U-Turn will do weak damage to anything not hit super effectively. Having U-Turn or Volt Switch doesn't make a Pokémon broken either - Scizor, Landorus-T, Jirachi, Celebi, Rotom-W, Jolteon, Thundurus-T all get U-Turn/Volt Switch (some getting STAB on it), and none of them have ever been deemed broken.

    No. 3
    Landorus @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sheer Force
    Naive Nature (+Spd -SDef)
    EV: 4 Atk, 252 SAtk, 252 Spd
    U-Turn
    Earth Power
    Focus Blast
    Hidden Power Ice

    Checks & Counters:

    Bulky Dragon Dance Gyarados: does even better against this set since it doesn't have a boosting nature. Can come in on anything with no fear of a 2HKO, use Dragon Dance and OHKO with Waterfall, possibly starting a sweep.
    Chansey: Focus Blast maxes out at 38.3%, so even with Stealth Rock and a layer of Spikes down, Chansey can come in with no fear of a 2HKO and stall out Focus Blast's PP with Wish and Protect.
    Keldeo: survives Earth Power even after Rocks (Earth Power maxes at 91%), outruns and OHKOs with Surf/Hydro Pump. Will fall if Spikes are down though.
    Specially defensive Jellicent: much the same as the first set. Does even better since it's not using a SAtk boosting nature.
    In fact, most faster special attackers can revenge kill this set with ease, although many can't switch in. Scarf Politoed, Scarf Rotom-W, Starmie (can't switch in), Scarf Gyarados, [email protected] (can't switch in)...[/HIDE]

    Again, please don't play the U-Turn card.

    Just a question for all you people screaming "BAN IT!": what exactly do you think will be the outcome of a Landorus ban? At no. 29 and 19 in non ranked and ranked stats respectively, it's nowhere near overcentralising. While there's no doubt it packs a punch, it's not overpowered - there are stronger attackers on both sides of the spectrum. BW2 OU is a heavily offensive tier - getting rid of Landorus won't change that. Pure stall isn't really viable now anyway - what with hard hitters like Haxorus, Hydreigon, Salamence and [email protected] and stallbreakers like Poison Heal Breloom, Gliscor and Reuinclus running around, building a successful Pure Stall team will be nigh impossible with or without Landorus. Pure walls aren't very useful anyway - why do you think Blissey fell out of OU? Semi-Stall, Balanced and Hyper Offensive teams all still seem perfectly viable. And anyway, it's only 9 weeks and 4 days until X&Y come out and then we'll have a whole lot of new Pokémon to worry about. Is a ban really necessary?

    Sorry for the long post, wanted to be thorough. I apologise for some poor posts previously - hopefully this one is better. Also, does anyone know a good Gen 5 damage calculator? Kalashnikov's one has gone down, so I had to use this really complicated one. Hope it's accurate :).
     
  20. phucvn

    phucvn Cheap player

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  21. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Hi everyone.


    Since when did prediction become a valid arguement? Prediction is, and always will be, a two way street. It can go for you, or against you; however, you cannot assume you'll always predict correctly, or incorrectly!

    So, if Darkrai is "overcentralizing" in OU, but the metagame isn't bad because of it, why would we have bothered banning it in OU earlier this generation? That arguement basically parallels to the logic you used in your first sentence (pretty generalized and invalid stance, in my opinion.) Then, you claim that Landorus doesn't impact teambuilding (which contradicts your labeling it overcentralising in your first sentence) which is false. Every team has to have one of the few pokemon that deals with Landorus else it'll have quite a field day and most arguements for ban state that the amount of stops to landorus is such a small amount that it makes Landorus-I broken. Keldeo and Kyurem (to a lesser extent, the later) have a decent amount of checks and counters, making them easier to be dealt with in the OU metagame. Furthermore, checks and counters are very important when it comes to broken or not. Obviously, something that lacks a sufficient amount of checks / counters and can rip through the metagame like Landorus is broken in comparisson to something like Keldeo who has a plethora of answers (Jellicent, Tentacruel, Celebi, Latias, Latios, Amoonguss, Toxicroak, etc.)

    Too lazy to read Doom's post, lol

    TL;DR - Ban Landorus, it lacks the raw checks and counters
     
  22. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Thanks.

    If you'd bothered to read my post Finch you'd have seen it actually has quite a few good checks and each set (well the 3 most popular ones anyway) has several counters. Oh well, you can only lead the horse to the water.
     
  23. MUMU

    MUMU DNR KILLED IT

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    Exactly,prediction is always 50/50,and it's same for other ho vs ho,so that when most posts are saying (paraphrase) "landorus I is broken because it can sweep if it predicts correctly," it's making the same logic,lots of other pokemon can do it if they predict correctly,they are not broken in any way either.


    It has some checks actually,and not having checks or counter isn't enough reason to ban,very few of the ou sweepers have raw counters anyway.
     
  24. Weiss

    Weiss Member

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    If the meta isn't bad, why ban it? Yeah, why?

    Volcarona, Kyu and Keldeo are way more likely to rip you apart than Landorus in my experience. I just don't see an argument for banning it based on my experiences on the sim. There's more pokemon that don't have many "raw checks or counters" as you put it, and even that point is debatable, as other have stated. I just can't find a reason to ban the thing. Really, the lack of a clear philosophy on banning makes it so you can probably find a reason to ban just about anything in the top usage statistics.

    Whether Landorus is banned or not banned, it just wouldn't make a difference to me. That's a clear indicator that it just isn't that big a threat. Compared to several of the dragons, Keldeo, Rotom and Scizor, Volcarona, Terrakion...Landorus just doesn't merit prioritizing when it comes to team building or evaluating the meta as a whole in my experience. It doesn't take major priorities well, it's not incredibly fast, it's just...decent. Since when do we ban decent?

    Something will always be the top dog in the meta, no matter how much we ban, but as of now Landorus just isn't the cream of the crop and if there's a general mindset that current OU is poor than I don't think that this is because of Landorus...
     
  25. Izziah

    Izziah New Member

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    Landorus can be a downright evil pokemon to fight given the right circumstances, but there are also circumstances in which he (she, it?) can be mashed into oblivion. Anything immune to ground (and still survive the occasional stone edge) can use Landorus to set up and attempt to sweep. Gliscor is a popular choice, and although you might call me stupid, I like to use Rotom-W, who has levitate, can burn it, and annihilate it with Hydro Pump. And really, anything with even moderate power can OHKO it with an ice move.

    Keep it
     
  26. MetalGross

    MetalGross gems…

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    Rotom-W still gets 2HKOd by Focus Blast, and I really can't see how Heatran is an offensive check. And like I said in my other post, I don't understand why everyone keeps bringing up Priority. Sure you'll get some nice damage out of it, but it doesn't counter Landorus at all. And really, your statement of being a bad player if Landorus can set up on HO is really wrong. Your Latios just used Draco Meteor, and Landorus says hi. Gengar is a bit weakened, Landorus says hi. Setting up against HO is really not as hard as it might seem. And as you can see, these pokemon are supposed to check Landorus. Also, Celebi will not be recovering off damage since it dies to U-Turn if Celebi switched in thinking it walls Landorus. Even if it didn't switch in it can still die.
    4 Atk Life Orb Landorus U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 322-380 (79.7 - 94.05%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock[/HIDE]


    Good that Landorus is not overcentralizing for you, but I am tired of running Latias/Latios on all my teams lately just to avoid getting swept. In my opinion Kyurem and Keldeo aren't half as threatening as Landorus. Keldeo isn't really as threatening as other pokemon, since everyone needs to use water resists to not auto-lose to Rain, and the most-used Keldeo sets lock into one move. Finchinator made a really good list there, and there are others still, who check it. Kyurem resides in BL, I think that says enough. I think Luck>Skill made a great list of Checks/Counters, and some of them might still lose. And the argument that we shouldn't ban Landorus because X&Y is coming out soon is stupid. If it's found broken, it gets banned. It's as simple as that.

    also @ Dr Doom, Jellicent gets 2HKO'd after Rocks like you stated and almost never runs Ice Beam, and Celebi rarely runs Leaf Storm. We all know every poke has its checks and counters, but Landorus can still muscle a way through sometimes, and that really is what makes it broken in my eyes.
     
  27. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    Absolutely this. All i've seen from most of this discussion has been "most of the meta can't switch in without being 2hkoed". Like OK good luck switching most of the meta in on Latios, Dragonite, Terrakion, Breloom, Garchomp, Salamence, Volcarona, Thundurus-T, Keldeo, Hydreigon, Kyurem-B, etc. Should we be banning all of these too?

    Basically every pro-ban argument I've seen bar a couple sensible ones (which I still disagree with) has completely disregarded Landorus' actual situation and the way it operates and can be played in OU. One cannot simply switch in a Landorus with impunity and immediately benefit - there is absolute risk involved which I think is more or less equal to the reward in using it. More so than for many other powerful threats in OU. Landorus also has 2 sets, no matter what people may say about it can run blah blah blah, realistically it only either runs EP/FB/HP Ice/RP or EP/FB/HP Ice/U-turn. There are a significant amount of checks to both sets and it's really not too hard to figure out which one it is in a battle. the RP set will prove big trouble for offensive teams if it sets up, just like any speed boosting setter-upper really. the U-turn set can often prove big trouble for stall teams - but most stall teams are trash in OU anyway and we'd have to ban like 15 more things to make that not the case. Alongside this, a majority of the meta can switch in to 3/4 of its moveset - and some can switch in to 4/4 frequently through a game, like Gyarados, Rotom-W, Jellicent, Gengar, etc (there's plenty listed through this thread by others). With the 3/4 it can often be difficult to check Lando due to its really brilliant speed tier, as it will outspeed a good handful of checks and can hit them with the appropriate move next turn (and then not OHKO it and risk being possibly KOed back, or at least severely weakened)

    I think this is one of the best points made in this discussion, and one that most just seem to ignore because "it 2hkoed my wall!". Landorus has significantly limited duration in a battle - even if it predicts 100% perfectly every single turn of a battle it necessarily has to be exposing itself to common scarf attackers and priority in order to function. When it's not predicting 100% perfectly every single turn, it's whittling down its own health and exposing itself further to do 13% damage to the opponent, and then just has to switch out, and take SR damage later. Landorus just cannot be switched in willy-nilly and instantly profit. And it has a lot of difficulty outlasting its checks or counters, unlike e.g. Tornadus-T, or some [email protected]/Jirachi/Dragonite/Volcarona/Mienshao, etc depending on their sets. The Landorus player is not at an immediate advantage because they must predict and play decently in order to get an advantage with Landorus, just like with many other super powerful threats in OU. Don't ban this thing.
     
  28. Weiss

    Weiss Member

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    I guess that's how we experience things then, but I find that a better way of discussing these things than theorymoning.

    Kyurem residing in BL is a useless argument. Deoxys was hardly used. If you used the statistics and usage, that thing shouldn't even have come close to Ubers. That goes for both Deoxys-n and Deoxys-a. Just to say: that doesn't say enough.

    Furthermore, I totally agree with Aurist's post. Landorus is not a windmill slam on a team which causes any configuration to be instantly better unlike some other ubers in the past. You have to work to make Landorus work, unlike some other pokemon..
     
  29. Luck>Skill

    Luck>Skill Well-Known Member

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    I personally believe Keldeo and Kyurem-B (especially the latter, not 100% sure about the former yet) are retardedly broken

    Also can the anti ban people actually bring an argument to the discussion other than "plenty of other pokes in BW OU do the same!!!"

    Like come on, NO other BW sweeper is THIS powerful as of now, and if it is (Kyurem-B) it has other issues (typing and speed are the most common flaws, Volcarona typing is garbage to begin with, the only notable resist is fighting, sure, offensively Bug / Fire is decent, but it loses to SO MANY OU mons that you will find yourself having a lot of coverage issues, as well as facing A LOT of difficulties setting up and / or getting rid of the pokes your coverage wants to get removed before sweeping, needs spin support and generally it wants weather too (depending on the set)

    Kyurem-B is op as fuck and regardless, it's slower, weak to all hazards and the Ice typing without any physical STAB is what makes it a lackluster pokemon

    Breloom is checked by every single dragon in the tier, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM, Jirachi checks it too, Celebi outright smashes it, Skarmory, Tornadus, Landorus itself, all of these are incredibly good checks to it, there's PLENTY of these to beat Breloom (I actually consider SD loom not that good in the current meta but that's another story)

    Terrakion would be a lot better if: 1) his secondary STAB didn't have 80 accuracy 2) it wasn't weak to Scizor's Bullet Punch and Breloom's Mach Punch 3) it didn't have to force itself into a lot of 50/50s to not get endlessly walled, I mean, if you CC and a Celebi is sent in you have to switch out, the same does not happen with Landorus (or rather, it does not happen as often)

    Salamence loses to literally the whole OU tier, even max def Politoed is enough to keep it at bait (and we all know how bad Politoed is stats wise, ignoring Drizzle right?), also SR weak

    Latios is Pursuit weak, Bug weak, has surefire counters (Jirachi, Tyranitar, SDef Celebi) and has to use draco meteor to kill stuff which makes it set up bait (which is exactly why Latios isn't as good as people make it out to be), so it has to switch in and out a lot of times during the match, and can be Pursuit'd and all that jazz, it also can't get +2 speed, dragon psychic isn't that good defensively...

    Garchomp...Landorus-T is a decent switch in, infinite stuff can switch into Outrage and put a end to Garchomp's life, the biggest problem with physical dragons is that Outrage locks yourself and brings confusion if you outrage for long enough, which is something most people neglect but it's one of the biggest factors into winning / losing games if your team is HO and uses a lot of dragons / even garchomp only might be the reason of your defeat

    Keldeo's list of counters and checks is longer than landorus' and Keldeo has more difficulties getting past them (sure ebelt hp bug is a fine way to kill celebi but leaves you open to dragons and gyarados, hp ice means gyarados still eats you, [email protected] can wreck you and hp elec means every single dragon + celebi will wall you, without hp electric tentacruel laughs at you, hpump has 8 pps and misses, and you have offensive checks as well! Toxicroak exists and is a excellent pokemon in this metagame

    Hydreigon as I think I have already said is a pokemon I love, I have tried INFINITE builds with Hydreigon, hell, I even tried Sub Charge and full physical with Crunch U-Turn Superpower Flamethrower / EQ, I tried it in EVERY SINGLE POSSIBLE WAY, and, while it is a EXTREMELY GOOD Pokemon (should be used way more than it is now), it's nowhere as powerful as it looks on paper / people claim it to be. Have you even tried it? That's what I'm wondering when people claim that "it can 2HKO / OHKO everything and has no direct counters just like Landorus", because it's not even remotely true, it is also Fighting weak which is a HUGE letdown

    Kyurem-B is op, I agree, I'm not even sure I have any argument against Kyurem-B being about as broken as Landorus, I believe both should go =/

    Thundurus-T is probably the best pokemon out of those you mentioned. It resists bullet punch and has absurd firepower, and I'll let you know, it is actually really good, but I consider it kind of a luxury pokemon, it's slightly less bulky than Landorus, and this hurts especially on the physical side, so even a Breloom's mach punch can spell doom for you, then, while boltbeam is excellent, it faces coverage issues against a lot of stuff like Mamoswine and Porygon2, and has problems getting past celebi without NPlot (or U-Turn!), belt Thundurus-T is a great wallbreaker, but it lacks the sheer power that Landorus has
     
  30. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    Luck, I definitely wasn't trying to make points about the list of Pokemon there, especially not that they're OP'd, just criticising others' "it can't be switched into" arguments by pointing out some pokemon with a similar, even if not exactly the same, level of switch-ins. Probably Breloom was a bad example, but I figured at the time with Spore and the difference in sets I'd include it. Obviously not actually comparing all of those pokemon because they all have very different situations and ways of playing them. And I definitely brought other arguments in my post than this, as evidenced by the 2 3-times-as-big paragraphs following that point.

    I just think that teams in OU are equally, and reasonably, as prepared for Landorus as they are for a large chunk of super powerful threats in the tier, and I don't believe that a team with Landorus has an automatic advantage over a team that doesn't, so I don't think it's bannable. It has reasons to use it over some super powerful threats, and reasons to not use it over some super powerful threats.

    (I also disagree that Keldeo and Kyu-B are OP'd but I don't wanna go too deep into discussing that on a Landorus suspect thread)
     
  31. Luck>Skill

    Luck>Skill Well-Known Member

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    what??? I posted enough switch ins for the pokes you listed

    do you see as many counters / checks for Landorus-I? the only one that comes even remotely close is Garchomp and even then Outrage is a bad move especially early game

    I don't see Lando-I having as many switch ins like the pokes you listed, that's the point I tried to make
     
  32. WizzleKidd

    WizzleKidd Wizzlin' PO since Feb '11

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    ...man... what are some of you trying to accomplish by banning something now with 2 months to go until gen 6? How does this ban improve OU?? I want to know the answer lol. All you're doing is removing a good pokemon from the tier because it's good. Then you lot would move on and suspect something else, a never ending cycle. OU is not currently revolving around Landorus like how it did shit like Darkrai, Deoxys or Excadrill etc.

    Landorus is not as bulky as you would love to believe. Except for electric and ground moves, when can Landorus really switch in without losing health and no resistance to S.R? It has a good but not amazing 101 speed thus gets out-sped quite a lot and also gets one-shotted many times because of its common weaknesses. And sorry if you think this is a bad argument but priority in OU is extremely common and apart from mach punch, Landorus doesn't resist any thus limiting it's stay.
    Hp.ice and the beloved u-turn take life orb damage! =O
    Focus blast is usable but is just so unreliable. (70%, which is even less than Terrakions stone edge in reply to Luck>Skill)
    Switch in your check to hit it back or scare it out.. the checks have been stated by me and others so no need to say again. Now all of these problems combined show that Landorus is managable.

    Wait but hold on, there's rock polish!! Yup, problem is that it lacks the beloved u-turn!! What happens now then? Time to switch in whatever check you may have. Unless it sets up late game on a weakened team Landorus is not going to start netting kills early/mid-game.. This is just too similar to another user that can sweep. Why is this different?

    I find it farfetch'd that there's actual belief that THIS is OU's biggest and unstoppable threat even though it has many bad-points that stop it from being so.. These bad-points keep getting overlooked which is a problem, meaning that Landorus stays healthy throughout a whole game, predicts correctly with all it's moves and always u-turns away from celebi. It is currently 20th in usage and does not have that influence in OU on team building and isn't 'centralizing'.
     
  33. cosmicfinch

    cosmicfinch New Member

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    Amen brother.
    The last ban Genesect, before it was banned was being used on pretty much every team. It was impossible not to find a role for him on any team. Every team was forced to plan on dealing with Genesect or you simply couldn't survive.
    Landorus is barely seen every 4th battle. In the higher tiers 1400+ I find he's seen even more rarely. If we need to ban something for the sake of banning something, fine, but there are far more broken pokes imo than Landorus.
     
  34. BLUFF GOD

    BLUFF GOD eat an apple day sed,,

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    ban it kill it wif fire if smogon banned you guys ban y/y

    is vry bad 4 tha metagame!

    ttar+lando-i is redic (lati being known as one of its main 'walls/counter') and the other counters that Luck mentioned speaking to Hannah or w/e are pretty much are dead weight to the majority of teams bar only doing this role of checking it and even then the moveset of lando changes so for example the U-turn set just WREKS 2 much n u get switch!! heho
     
  35. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Yeah next time try typing words out in full. How well Tyranitar does with Landorus is irrelevant - we are discussing Landorus, and only Landorus. Many many Pokémon have good teammates that can deal with most of their checks. We're not Smogon, so the fact that they banned it is neither here nor there.

    Also your point about the checks mostly being dead weight doesn't weigh up either. Gyarados is a sweeper, [email protected] and offensive Celebi are wallbreakers, Jellicent is a special wall, Chansey is a cleric and Wish passer. Most of its checks are perfectly valid Pokémon running perfectly valid sets.

    Also how is it bad for the metagame? What playstyle does it render unusable? I've tried offensive, hyper offensive and balanced and they all coped just fine despite Landorus's presence. Haven't tried stall yet, but let's face it Pure Stall in OU is dead. Getting rid of Landorus won't revive it. Semi stall is still viable though.
     
  36. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

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    WizzleKidd, you do realize that you contradicted your statements with reasons to ban it, right?

    I find neutrality to SR and immunity to Spikes rather decent. 89/90/80 is awfully similar to Scizor's bulk (70/100/80), so it's just fine defensively. Immunity to Electric and Ground = two free switch ins.

    Rock Polish is supposed to be a late-game sweeper set that destroys weaker teams. U-Turn is used for mid-game to scout out Landorus's checks.

    I'm going to say this for the last time:
    [SECRET]USAGE DOES NOT ALWAYS PROVE IF A POKEMON BROKEN OR NOT.[/SECRET]
    Also, Landorus IS centralized on Sand teams. Sand is pretty common now and almost all of them use Landorus.

    This doesn't all mean I'm 100% ban-happy. Currently from all of the arguments I am unsure whether to ban it or not. Just wanting to say though that arguments shouldn't give holes like this one >.<
     
  37. Weiss

    Weiss Member

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    Well, I would actually argue that a combination of two pokemon can push something over the top. Synergy is a very important thing in pokemon and when synergies become too good you might want to consider removing an element that makes a combination of things OP and as such I don't think we should put up tunnel vision and consider things only in a vacuum.

    This is also incredibly true.....

    No, they run either this Landorus or Landorus-t, which is still a tough choice. Also, removing Landorus will not eliminate sand, as weather will always be around to counter other weather, especially rain. Almost all rain teams share a couple of pokemon, so if we are looking at centralization elements in this current metagame I would not point out Landorus as one of the main influences. Weather in general and the overabundancy of crazy good sweepers that are now all options because Dory, swift swimmers and all of the other powerhouses have been removed causes for a very varied meta because no one pokemon is a clear better choice over the other. If anything, this seems like the least centralized metagame until now!
     
  38. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    It may be a little out of my place to say this but I really think the parallels that people are trying to make to so many other offensive OU pokemon need to stop. Largely because of the fact that Landorus isn't like any of the physical or mixed dragons, it's nothing like Latios and Hydreigon, and Rotom-W/Keldeo/any other special attacker even hinted at in discussion. Earth Power is what mostly separates it from anything else, since it is actually a pretty great move that you can just throw out with little worries of it backfiring, being resisted by only a few pokemon in OU, while most immunities are slower than it.

    Honestly, what mainly keeps Landorus from being outright broken is the fact that Earth Power is pretty much all it gets in terms of something you can just throw out there, and even then enemy Gyarados, [email protected], Rotom and Celebi(among others) can stop you from doing that. Focus Blast misses way more than anyone would like it to, whether you'd like to admit it or not, and can't be called predictable enough to always catch something like Rotom-W. HP Ice is very nice for Dragons and picking off weakened pokemon that happen to be weak to it, but is otherwise a piss poor move to try and gamble with when you have to predict - which you will when using Landorus. Hell that's another thing that sets it back altogether, since a lot of its offensive checks immune to EP are faster than it or can take the coverage moves it normally carries around.

    It's also what sets it apart from something like Tornadus-T(which I do think was broken), which is probably the most similar pokemon to Landorus-I that was banned recently. Mainly because of the fact that it doesn't boost the power Rain already has, plus Lando can't out pace 95% of the OU metagame like Torn-T could. Basically, it can't spam something like Hurricane then be able to use U-Turn without getting hit 95% of the time barring priority or scarves, all the while regaining all the health you lost from LO recoil. 101 speed is really nice since it breaks that 100 base speed tier, but other common pokemon can easily check it by virtue of being faster. With some status thrown around, switching into an attack or two, and LO recoil slowly stacking up from U-Turn or HP Ice, you're not outliving your counters like Tornadus could, either.

    That being said, I wouldn't fight its banning all that much since like a lot of pokemon it's a bitch to play against, plus I only used it because of the suspect discussion going on. I just really don't see how or think it's that overpowering. If it's to try and improve Stall(since stall is still playable) or something, you simply can't. BW as a generation is just inclined to offensive play styles. You can see that across every single tier and metagame there is for it at this time, except Ubers since that didn't change much.

    I also fail to see how Kyurem-B came up at all since it and Lando are nothing at all alike. Unless you really think a wall breaker that's weak to rocks and NEEDS Life Orb to break certain pokemon broken.
     
  39. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    Alfalfa
    Charizard and Shedinja are not even viable in OU anymore, lol. That would be like mentioning Steelix as a counter to Scarf Jirachi, or Mantine as a counter to Keldeo. And oh, Slowking is 2HKOd after Stealth Rock, as is Zapdos. Cresselia is the only real counter up here.

    But yeah, Rock Polish Landorus is a pain in the neck to deal with. You may argue that it is too easily checked, but few things can actually switch into it. Only really bulky Psychics like Celebi and Latias can handle Landorus, as well as Chansey, but the argument we are making is Landorus-I takes literally no skill to use, just like previous suspects, like DeoD/S, Genesect, Excadrill, TornT, Blaziken, etc. They all had specific counters, like Slowbro and Jellicent (Blaziken), Heatran (Genesect), Jirachi and SpD Skarmory (TornT), Quagsire (Excadrill), etc., but they still took literally no skill to spam. Landorus' bulky Psychics are not that much different than TornT's steels neutral to Fighting attacks, and Landorus is thus broken.

    He is right; Sheer Force Landorus literally requires two checks to it for a team to be sturdy enough to take it on, rather than one check, like most threats. Is this not enough for you guys?
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2013
  40. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    By what logic does Landorus require no skill to use? If you Rock Polish too early, you'll get revenge killed. Throw around Earth Powers, you're just asking for the opponent to send in their Flying type/Levitate user. Once they're in, you have to rely on either the weak Hidden Power Ice or the innacurate Focus Blast. There are Pokémon who can just click their STABs without having to worry (Tornadus-T being a prime example). Landorus is not one of them. It's also pretty fragile - any strong neutral move will likely take it below 50% HP. You cannot play Lanorus mindlessly as you could with Geneset.

    There's no point banning it. It doesn't break the tier, and is perfectly manageable: as myself and other people have shown in this thread, it has plenty of checks and a few situational counters. I don't see what good banning it will do. We've managed to play OU with Sheer Force Landorus for nearly a year: I think we can manage another 2 moths, don't you?
     
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