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[BW2] Sawk Suspect Discussion

Discussion in 'Gen 5 NU' started by Finchinator, Jul 28, 2013.

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  1. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Discuss the possibility of Sawk being banned from the Wifi NU tier. Use this thread to discuss Sawk's effect on the metagame. Talk about the different sets it can use, good partners and potential checks/counters. State your opinion on whether you think Sawk should be banned or if it should stay in the Wifi NU tier but make sure your posts are backed up by experience and knowledge. Anyone who makes post based on theorymon risks being infracted. This thread will be up for a minimum of two weeks. If a vote is needed, this topic will be bumped, and details will be provided.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2013
  2. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    This should be interesting. While I can't attest to being the best on the NU ladder (I've only peaked at ~70), I've not once had trouble with Sawk, mostly due to running obscure, high pressure offensive teams that don't give it much of a chance to succeed.

    The way I see it, if it's Choice Band it'll likely get a kill, but you can also revenge kill it just as easily, due to a base 85 being respectable, but outrun fairly easily. The Choice Scarf set on the other hand is a lot faster (obviously), but lacks the power to break the walls that exist in NU, like Tangela and Alomomola.
     
  3. Trakyan

    Trakyan Member

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    While i wont say its broken, i will say that its an up there threat.

    CB sawk can 2HKO just about anything and the list of things to take two closecombats can be counted on one hand, alomomola and tangela arent nessecarily in the list.

    On the list are a few psychic types like musharna, hypno, ghosts, poison types and so on.

    Musharna can take pretty much anything sawk has, same with hypno. Missdreavus is in the same boat. Also, Poison types like vileplume and muk all fear a coverage move, though i find vileplume pretty effective if you have something to take ice punches (or Muk if you have an EQ immune.)

    The CB set can run sturdy (it usually runs Mold Breaker) which alevaites its speed issues and can foil potential revenge killers or pokemon which could take a hit from it otherwise and OHKO back.

    Thats just what i think of it as a person with a slow team, for me cs sawk is just a weaker version of CB sawk, though it is good in its own right.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 28, 2013
  4. WizzleKidd

    WizzleKidd Wizzlin' PO since Feb '11

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    Sawk was suspected a long time ago and proved not to be broken so....

    The scarf set I'm sure isn't the reason as to be honest it simply does not hit hard enough. And still with scarf, other scarf users are faster.

    The band set is the better set which all the good NU players know. BUT STILL.... off the top of my head.

    Counters:
    Misdreavus, Musharna, Weezing, Alololololomola, Hypno, Mesprit, Duskull aka DUSKID

    Checks (these pokemon if you predict right switch in on Sawk and fuck it up, 95% of Sawks are choiced so Sawk needs to predict properly):
    Torkoal, Haunter, Gurdurr, Rotom, Eggy, Tangela, Drifblim, Vileplume, Garbordor, Roselia, Mandibuzz, Mantine, Altaria and most likely more

    Sawk is a top NU poke for sure, but it needs to be choiced and there's too many checks and counters to even be considered banning. Plus it has only 85 speed.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 28, 2013
  5. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Alright, I believe that Sawk isn't broken in NU, but you inflated its check and counter lists a bit.

    Weezing is 2hko'd by Mold Breaker EQ (making it a check, at best.)
    Alomomola is 2hko'd by CB Close Combat (making it a situational check.)
    Hypno is 2hko'd after Rocks with 252 / 252 and is usually specially defensive, leaving it easily 2hko'd (making it not even a check.)

    Torkoal is 2hko'd easily by CB Close Combat, EQ, or Stone Edge.
    Haunter only is immune to Close Combat, dies to everything else.
    Gurdurr isn't really a check when it takes 75% from Closed Combat.
    Rotom-A (ghost) is LU. Rotom-flying dies to Stone Edge and Ice Punch and takes a ton from Close Combat. Rotom-ice dies to everything bar Ice Punch.
    Eggy dies to Ice Punch and is usually 2hko'd by CB Close Combat.
    Tangela is a check, but must be wary of CB Close Combat.
    Vileplume is a mediocre check, as it can be easily 2 hit, but is a situational stop.

    I could go on, but most of these pokemon are Situational Checks and need to out-predict the opponent to switch-in. This means that they shouldn't really be emphasized on reasoning for Sawk to be in NU as they aren't great stops to its sets.
     
  6. WizzleKidd

    WizzleKidd Wizzlin' PO since Feb '11

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    Weezing can will-o-wisp next turn but yes I agree it is actually a check in this case then. But it is almost a counter as Sawk spams CC most of the time in reality.
    Hypno's actually do run physical defensive sets so I don't see why he's not a check, even a counter.
    Iirc alololol dies from band after rocks but I could be wrong as the calc site ain't working at the moment...

    And finally about the situational checks, I already said if predicted right they can switch in on Sawk as it's predictable. My point is that they are so many of them for a choiced Sawk which is why. So yeah Torkoal, Rotom and Gurdurr shouldn't have been in the list LOL I was wrong there but my whole point still stands.
    You agree its not broken either so whatever, it doesn't matter..
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2013
  7. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Sawk doesn't spam CC all the time, unless it's being used wrong. It has lovely coverage moves that compliment CC well, of course they'll be used when effective.

    Hypno's sets are practically all Specially Defensive. The only Physically Defensive set is the 10th most common which lacks recover and is CM Baton Pass. Not that usage stats are reliable, because they aren't, but until at least one person actually uses it, I'm not going to recognize Physically Defensive Hypno (which still gets 2 hit after rocks!!!)

    I could go on, but you seem to see the point.

    Finally, I agree that Sawk isn't broken. But, without solid evidence, saying it isn't broken goes nowhere.
     
  8. WizzleKidd

    WizzleKidd Wizzlin' PO since Feb '11

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    I already gave all the evidence that was needed here my 1st post lol. Ok let's cross Hypno out then if you like, and to be honest it's rarely used anymore but it is worth a mention.
     
  9. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    I'd like to point out that CB CC from sawk has the potential to 2HKO Tangela after rocks (12% from rocks, CC does 41%-49% assuming it is 252/252 tang), even if it came in initially at full hp (which won't always be the case, even with regenerator).

    Weezing gets 2hko'd by mold breaker EQ
    Alom is 2hko'd by CB CC
    hypno is 2hko'd
    It's only real checks are missy and musharna, and what do you know! they are both trapable
    Missy also lacks reliable recovery so it gets worn down easily and musharna can do nothing to the likes of pretty much any dark type.
    Mesprit is in the same boat as missy, but it gets hit still reasonably hard by CC (CB sawk 2hkos with CC if it is an offensive mesprit I might add)
    Vileplume gets smashed by ice punch and still dented quite hard by CC (CB CC doing 36%-41% if 252/252)

    Torkoal, Haunter, Gurdurr, Rotom, Eggy, Tangela, Drifblim, Vileplume, Garbordor, Roselia, Mandibuzz, Mantine, Altaria <- please don't call these checks, they aren't even close if a check is what I think it is.

    I think Sawk is broken, as well as extremely centralizing, pretty much forcing you to run musharna and predicting to not get trapped, which isn't hard persay, but being forced to run musharna just so you don't die to sawk is pretty silly imo
     
  10. Yui.

    Yui. Member

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    I find suspecting Sawk in NU to be BL ridiculous (borderline like the tier haha im so funny). But no let's get serious. Sawk is a cornerstone of NU. Yes it has a large impact on the metagame, but it is by no means broken. Banded Sawk 'wrecks' stall, but in reality protect scouting will shut it down easily. I will admit it is one of the premier stallbreakers in NU, but it can DEFINITELY be checked without a doubt. Sawk is 'one of the most powerful scarfers in the meta,' but its actually slower than a friggin slugma (okay I exaggerate, but you get the idea) Indeed it has 2 USEFUL abilities in mold breaker and sturdy, but they do not make it BROKEN. Sturdy is relatively hard to mantain on sawk unless you don't use it until you really need it (I know because my best team from pre-houndoom crapola used sturdy sawk and I often used its sturdy to save my posterior).

    HOWEVER. It is INCREDIBLY dangerous when used with a powerful pursuit trapper like HOUNDOOM. Houndoom is honestly the one to be suspected out of that dynamic duo, but I'll save that rant for another day. As for Skuntank, things like Musharna and Misdreavus have ways of dealing with it.

    Conclusion: As people have said before, it can be a very effective stallbreaker and a pretty good scarfer, and of course ebelt/life orb are just about as threatening depending on the situation, but Sawk is by no means broken. This is in some ways like suspecting Terrakion in OU in my opinion, and that is something that just won't happen. A metagame without Sawk would definitely be interesting to try out, but I don't think it deserves to be banned for being OP or anything like that.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 28, 2013
  11. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Delta Stream

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    Yeah have to agree here. Sawk is easily brought down with scouting and is super predictable. If Houndoom comes in on a Psychic-type (which is a common type for checks/counters of Sawk) it's basically gg with Pursuit. It's almost as bad as Shadow Tag (like Shadow Tag for Psychic-types only). Houndoom performs well even in UU, which is where Smogon has it iirc (not that it matters but still) and wrecks any Psychic-type it comes in on.

    tl;dr (not that it's even long lol) - Sawk not broke. Houndoom suspect pl0x.

    That is all.
    I don't play NU much but that's my honest opinion. Feel free to prove me wrong
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2013
  12. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    Banning Sawk means that stall teams will get a boost with the most powerful wallbreaker leaving. However, people are literally just spamming the Sawk/Houndoom/Musharna core which is not necessarily a bad thing, but it forces you to adapt your team so much to the point that there is no room for originality left. Sawk can OHKO nearly the whole tier if not 2HKO at worst, while Houndoom and Musharna cover the few pokemon that Sawk fears, like Musharna or a healthy Gurdurr. There are good cores in every tier but this one is just ridiculous. Surely the NU tier would be a lot more balanced with Sawk gone, also there are very good replacements available for both the CB set and the Scarf set in Emboar and Primeape respectively.

    On the contrary, if you want another counter to Sawk you can add Slowpoke to the list... Nobody uses it aside from me but it has its perks over Alomomola and Musharna, like being a full stop to Sawk unlike Momo and having Regenerator and Scald over Mushy. Also with Flamethrower Slowpoke is not setup fodder for Klinklang unlike the other two walls that can't break its Sub. It also hits Grass-types for good damage on the switch.
     
  13. Hot N Cold

    Hot N Cold Active Member

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    Sawk isnt broken, Houndoom it does.

    Sawk Choice Scarf isnt very fast, cant break and lacks to the power to break walls or anything.

    While Sawk Choice Band has several checks / counters:

    - Musharna
    - Misdreavus
    - Garbodor Rocky helmet
    - Tangela
    - Weezing
    - Golbat
    ..etc

    Also, add that is slow so another offensive mon outrun him easily. Against more balance / defensive teams has solid counters, i know that can be suspectible to trap like Musharna with Houndoom when also you can run t-wave / bp / hp ground musharna lol also suspect houndoom which can break many more things with Nasty Plot, a mixed set just is very strong to any offensive team and is a great support for many teams with pursuit which can make a bit too dangerous fightyng types mostly Sawk by the strong Atk and Mold Breaker.
    But dont make Sawk suspect when is far to be broken.
     
  14. Daybreak

    Daybreak can't touch this

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    Let me just say first off to get a ko with sawk, you need to make a prediction of some sort. This can be relevant to all pokemon moves in every game and every pokemon chosen.

    With that being said Sawk can be tough to predict with once the opponent has scouted your playstyle. Sawk is a one trick pony almost similar to keldeo in ou, sheer power but can be predicted and a few set counters. For keldeo's main counter, jellicent rises up against it easily. For Sawk that counter would be musharna. However for anyone that has played ou, keldeo gets eventually warn down and is usually revenge killed by a choice scarfer, the same could be said about sawk (85 although not bad for the nu meta, can be exploitable for faster pokes or choice scarf pokes like rotom-s and primeape).

    Entry hazards are prevelant in Nu as well, with spike stacking from roselia and garbodor and toxic spikes stacking from garbodor and drapion. With it sawk doesn't have too many switches to lay some massive dammage, especially if the opponent outplays you and vice versa.

    Although these are very minor weaknesses lets look at sawk's defensive capabilities. 75/75/75 defenses do not allow it to switch in an ample amount of times with powerful attackers like volt switch from eelektross and facades from swellow. Along with entry hazards, sawk has to be brought in safely or with prediction to be able to pull off a successful attack.

    Yes Sawk is powerful, yes it is a threat, no it is somthing you cannot throw into the fray of battle and expect it to kill somthing by spamming banded close combats without dying in the process. It is a worthwhile reward if people play sawk correctly but the keyword is IF. Basing somthing based off it's attack stat and a certain case scenario is a bad way to determine wether or not a pokemon is deemed broken. All in all I think Sawk is not broken and people should stop judging sawk based off of the wall breaking it can potentially do.
     
  15. 1bigroomfullofbadfemaledogs

    1bigroomfullofbadfemaledogs New Member

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    All of those are checks. CB sawk 2hkos all of them with proper prediction. It's on you to predict right and not have your check annihilated, not the sawk user. The only thing not 2HKod is misdreavus and that's too easy to wear down b/c of its lack of leftovers and recovery.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2013
  16. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    I'd just like to say well done to everyone in this suspect thread for noticing that a pokemon hits hard.

    Daybreak's post I think sums it up pretty much perfectly imo. Sawk absolutely 100% requires a good level of prediction, decent switching etc to be able to do its job in the tier. Simply 2hkoing a majority of things does not a broken pokemon make. With Sawk you cannot just click an attack and expect to KO something, because there -are- many different things that decently take the attack you're selecting, band or no band. If you predict wrong, either Sawk or something else on your team is generally in trouble. Sawk is a risk/reward pokemon - the risk isn't as low as some other physical attackers in the tier like Emboar, but it is nonetheless a pokemon you cannot expect to simply throw into play, click an attack and profit. That's where I think a lot of this, and other suspect discussions, are falling flat. Being hard to switch into could be said for dozens of not broken pokemon across all the tiers.

    Sawk's speed is a touch lacking for the NU tier, such that a scarfer on your team will be able to outspeed and KO it, which will happen because hazards are up and its bulk is OK at best. With scarf itself it can remedy that slightly, but most scarfers are stillfaster. For scarf I find that Primeape is a much less risky pokemon to use, able to U-turn on a predicted switch in. I think that band is quite clearly Sawk's best set, and the only thing that will vary with Sawk is it either has Mold Breaker or Sturdy - something you already know, because it tells you when it has Mold Breaker. And that's another thing - you will always know what Sawk is doing, and what coverage moves it packs. And just like the player who needs to predict which switch in they need, Sawk also needs to predict which move to use. It's a two way street kind of pokemon. That in itself makes it not broken, in my opinion. The significant amount of pokemon in the tier that can switch in to 3 out of 4 of its moves with no problem, as well as the couple that can switch into 4 out of 4, and then can do their thing, I think makes Sawk a balanced pokemon in the tier. Band is a strong ass set, and certainly Sawk is one of the best pokemon in the tier, definitely justifying its long held position among the most used. But broken? I don't think so.

    And honestly I think if the entirety of the onus of prediction was on the person switching in then we'd see things like Emboar and Samurott in BL3 too.

    About the Houndoom thing - I think if one pokemon is eliminating such a large amount of checks and counters so freely and easily, it doesn't belong in the tier and should be suspected itself. See Gothitelle and Gothorita.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2013
  17. Hot N Cold

    Hot N Cold Active Member

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    252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Stone Edge vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 140-165 (32.33 - 38.1%) -- 0.85% chance to 3HKO

    252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 136-162 (40.84 - 48.64%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 261-307 (48.87 - 57.49%) -- 53.13% chance to 2HKO (add protect)

    You need click the right move with the right item and nature, also base 85 neutral is slow to be a threat. Not miss that if you're running a ghost like Drifblim or Haunter you got a free sub. Sawk has notable flaws to not be broken on the tier (bulk / speed / solid checks and some counters), if you ban Sawk just ban another stuff like Emboar, Samurott, Rampardos.. which totally in this cases lacks to a solid true counter depending on the set.
     
  18. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Just gonna post this again here.

    Just to summarise my thoughts on Sawk:
    • So powerful that it being predictable isn't an issue.
    • NU's premier walls like Alomomola + Tangela are 2HKO'd after rocks.
    • It's only Counters share a weakness to Dark types meaning they can be Pursuit trapped, and I know you say this is 'part of the meta' but if a Dark type gets in for free there aren't many ways of switching out your Sawk Counter without taking enough damage to let Sawk 2HKO when you next come in, no matter how good you are.
    • Yes I understand there are ways to get around Pursuit trapping, Double Switching (2 way street) Mesprit U-Turn (Common) Musharna Baton Pass + Thunder Wave set (Uncommon)
    • No Sawk is not comparable to other Fighting types in the regard of having they're Psychic and Ghost counters removed by trappers, as none of them boast anywhere near enough power to get through the Premier Walls Tangela + Alomomola, or Physically Defensive Posion types Like Weezing + Garbodor, which Sawk can get around with Mold Breaker Earthquake.
    • Base 85 Speed is incredibly good for a wall breaker that possesses the power Sawk does, Banded Sawk cannot and isn't meant to sweep teams, however this speed tier allows him to outspeed around 70% of NU and OHKO/2HKO them.
    • No it isn't exactly difficult to revenge kill Sawk due to the stat Drops from CC, but it still possesses decent defensive stats and base 85 Speed means it isn't 'easily' revenge killed by most teams.

    The above factors lead me to believe Sawk is Broken

    I can't see how people think Houndoom is the problem here and not Sawk, no other fighting type can claim to do what Sawk does, can't even come close. However Houndoom can easily be replaced by Drapion or Skuntank, sporting basically the exact same Attack, and better Defensive typing and greater defensive stats. Being Weak to Rocks and having much worse Defensive typing means Houndoom is extremely unreliable at keeping things like CM Musharna at bay for a full match. It's only boon over the other 2 in a trapping role is an immunity to Misdreavus' Will o Wisp, however Vs. Mesprit U-Turn does around 40% to it, and Vs Musharna a +1 HP Ground/Fighting OHKO's after rocks, and if you're really that fearful of Missy's Will O Wisp then run a Lum Berry on Skunk/Drap.

    Houndoom is far better off running a Special Attacking set with Sucker Punch imo, it is an incredible offensive pokemon in this role, boasting great power and great coverage with HP Grass, Dark Pulse + Fire Blast.

    It is in no way broken in a trapping role, or any role for that matter.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2013
  19. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Afro, the fact that a Pokémon has teammates that can handle its checks in no way contributes to it being broken. Example: specially defensive Heatran walls Volcarona cold if it lacks HP Ground. Conkeldurr can come in, taking low damage from Lava Plume and enjoying status, and smash it with Drain Punch. But that doesn't make Volcarona broken does it? It's the same principle with Sawk in NU. You act as if Sawk is just going to spam Close Combat willy nilly, but the fact is it can only afford to do that late game when you know your opponent has no Bug/Flying/Psychic types/physical walls left. Whatever move it locks itself into has drawbacks: Close Combat and Earthquake have Pokémon immune to them; Stone Edge has low PP and sub par accuracy; Ice Punch is weak on anything not super effective. Therefore it has to be played carefully. Personally I think the Scarf set's poor - Sawk isn't really quick enough, and without a boosting item it's too weak.
     
  20. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Except Conkeldurr cannot trap and kill off Heatran preventing it from walling Volcarona the rest of the match, Heatran is free to switch out, Sawk's Counters are not.
     
  21. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    You make a good point, but don't forget simply switching the Dark type in not as clean as you make it out to be. Take Gardevoir - Houndoom is cleanly OHKOd by Focus Blast, Skuntank takes 76% minimum from Focus Blast and is crippled by Trick or Will-O-Wisp, ditto for bulky Swords Dance Drapion. Tank Musharna does massive damage to all 3 with Hidden Power Ground, and Houndoom hates Paralysis. The Fighting/Dark core is part of NU, and that will continue with or without Sawk. If Sawk goes, Emboar, Gurdurr or Hariyama will take its place.
     
  22. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    I know but all of those pokemon are either far easier to revenge kill/force out or have many more Checks/Counters than Sawk has, the Fighting/Psychic/Dark core is and always will be very strong, I just feel Sawk makes it a little too strong.
     
  23. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Just wanted to include that as I'm expanding on it here since it will be completely relevant to this discussion. [/HIDE]

    So, Sawk. It was only a matter of time before another hard hitting pokemon experienced what I like to call "nidoqueen syndrome." It's where everyone hates the fact that they have to play around wall breakers instead of being able to mindlessly switch in one pokemon or the other to stop it. Instead of making a huge tl;dr post no one will really read, I'm going to do the much more effective way of arguing a point since people pay attention to it much more carefully: direct quoting.


    Actually being predictable is the number one reason why Sawk is so manageable. It isn't powerful enough to completely ignore resistances; Rotom-S, Golbat and Vileplume are all completely viable and good pokemon that can take a close combat and either KO, put it to sleep, or use it as Roost fodder. They're also not susceptible to being trapped like those psychic types everyone is suddenly reliant on for one reason or another.

    Alright. That's nice and all but you forgot to mention one giant factor in that: Choice Band. It has to lock itself into Close Combat to just barely 2HKO these things. After that you can switch into any Fighting resist you want, since if you're going with some form of balanced or stall team, you should have at least 1 fighting resist. Why? Emboar is just as dangerous as Sawk, even if you don't think so. I'm always more afraid of seeing Emboar when I run balance to be honest, because it has 2 completely different sets of checks and counters.

    And here's where the kicker comes in: not everything in the game needs a 100% solid counter that will always be alive throughout the entire match! I know I seem cynically sarcastic here but it's really something people need to learn. Nidoqueen had 1, maybe 2 completely safe switch ins while it was still LU, but you could still be able to play around it using resists and/or an immunity or two. The same applies to Sawk. We're not computers, and neither side can predict correctly all the time. However the ease at which a pokemon can ravage the metagame as a whole(not just your teams which may or may not depend on a ghost or psychic to thrive) with minimal prediction is a huge factor in hard hitting but slow pokemon like Sawk. More on it being slow later.

    Again, you're focusing too much on having absolute counters, when that kind of mindset was outdated in, at the latest, very early BW. If people would stop looking at Sawk's wall breaking potential and start looking at its affect on the tier compared to other pokemon who can hit just as hard, you'll find it's not much different than Emboar.

    The best part about the Emboar comparison I keep bring up? It doesn't need anything to remove Misdreavus, the Psychics or Poison types for it. No Psychic type in the tier barring Grumpig can stand up to a Choice Band Flare Blitz and live to tell the tale of eating the second one. Misdreavus needs all of its EVs poured into Defense in order to act as an effective physical wall, which means even though its slower than Sawk, it still out speeds all these walls you keep bringing up. Which leads right into...

    I will say that base 85 speed is surprisingly good for a wall breaker. However it doesn't mean anything. Sure, it out speeds the other wall breakers before they can attack it, however all of the wall breakers have enough speed themselves to out pace every wall in the tier, barring oddities like Golbat that can afford to be fast due to the nature of how they work as walls. Other than that, every other moderately offensive pokemon that's meant to sweep is much faster than it. Zangoose, Kangaskhan, Haunter, Primeape, Sawsbuck, Drifblim(if Sawk is adamant which it almost must be); those are all pokemon I thought of off the top of my head that are faster than it by base speed alone, and that's excluding scarfers or naturally fast pokemon like Charizard.

    Basically, stop mentioning its speed stat. It only out paces every wall like every other wall breaker can do. Only difference is it can also out pace fellow wall breakers, which doesn't make that much more of a difference since most wall breakers aren't intended to check offensive threats.


    It has no more bulk than Emboar or Samurott. See above for the speed comment.

    Honestly, people, just adjust your teams. Metagames shift. A powerful pokemon like Houndoom can drop that completely demolishes what normally worked very well before, and one pokemon can rise which changes the dynamic in a completely different way. It's why the lower tiers are so fun, because of the fact that one pokemon can cause so much of a change. It's never stagnant, and it's one of the best features they have over OU. Stop relying on the same 3 or 4 psychic/ghost types and try new team archetypes. You'll find the new metagame manageable after trying to change with it, trust me. We don't just choose random people to lead our tiers, and if all three don't think it's broken, there's a fairly strong chance it's not broken.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2013
  24. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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  25. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Excuse me? Emboar is RU on smogon due to usage, not because it was broken. If you think it was ever banned, find the suspect test thread and please show me the post that would confirm it. Also, Nidoqueen was not banned from LU at all; it rose up to UU because of usage, not because it was too powerful.

    Please check your facts before you spout incorrect information like that.

    Also, you completely missed the point in me mentioning Emboar.
     
  26. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    I don't hate the fact you can't mindlessly switch into things, because in actual fact you can switch Mush and Misdreavus in with relative impunity every time, it's the fact that the few things that you can switch into Sawk with ease can be trapped and removed by Dark type partner. Everything else is 2HKO'd by the right coverage move.

    Sawk is predictable in the fact that you know it's going to be running CC/SE/Ice Punch/EQ, it's a whole nother ball game predicting which move it's going to actually use. I never claimed it was powerful enough to ignore resistances, because it doesn't have to be, it has the coverage to mow down all the potential checks you mentioned (Stone Edge/Ice Punch). The reason people are 'suddenly reliant' on these psychic and Ghost types is because they are the only pokemon guaranteed to not be 2HKO'd on the switch in, all the others depend on damage rolls and prediction.

    Yes i know people can pivot switch, but when i talk about this stuff it's from the perspective of your average ladder player, and pivot switches become part of the prediction game too. With any other fighting type do you feel the need to run Alomomola/Tangela AND another fighting check? Emboar is a better Wallbreaker per say, however it wears itself out much more quickly and only has access to Superpower as it's fighting STAB making it much easier to pivot around with the Atk drop. And ofc you'd be more scared of an Emboar if you were running a slower balanced team, this encompasses all playstyles though.

    I'm not exactly a fan of speaking about/comapring Sawk to pokemon from other tiers and metagames since I'm not as knowledgeable about that. And I'm not under the illusion that pokemon are just broken because they lack counters, or you'd see me suggesting Rampardos for ban. Sawk brings together tremendous power, great coverage, great ability and a great speed tier for a wall breaker. And again I'm trying to avoid bringing prediction into this since that is more down to x player's ability than their team building skills. Also I don't see why people think Sawk is slow, I'll cover that later too.

    See above for thoughts on Emboar.

    I won't stop mentioning it because that lovely speed it has means it is only outsped by around 12 of the top 50 used pokemon (taking into consideration common Scarfers) and only half of those can OHKO from full/near full. Yes stat drops from CC make it easier to revenge kill but if you're facing a decently built team you won't be able to spam CC all the time so the drops aren't always something you can take into consideration. Whereas Emboar depending on the set it's running (idk if speedy band or bulky band is more popular) has more than around 25 or 30 pokemon that can outspeed and revenge kill. It is far easier to revenge kill because it takes full damage from rocks and every single one of it's moves leave it more vulnerable, Superpower lowers Defense whilst Wild Charge/Head Smash/Flare Blitz mean you take recoil. if you want to take less recoil and run more HP you're outsped by more things, if you want to run more Speed then you take more recoil damage.

    So how anyone can even try and call Sawk slow or easy to revenge kill is completely beyond me. Both Emboar and Sawk outspeed the walls they try to break, but Sawk can also be very effective outside of that due to being much faster and outspeeding a vast majority of NU.

    Sorry if that wall of text is hard on your eyes :[

    Also yay i've got a sig dedicated to me :]
     
  27. Scene

    Scene reverie

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    Nidoqueen was never deemed broken and banned, in fact it was deemed not broken multiple times (I'm sure it was suspected/potential suspected at least twice). It was a wonderful mon, few thought it was broken and it never was, it moved up because UU players thought it looked fun. Likewise there is no reason Smogon banned Emboar, because they never did.

    On Sawk, I completely agree with Pnerd about the Nidoqueen comparison re lack of hard counters. Sawk's got a decent speed, but has no option to go bulky like Nidoqueen and tank unexpected hits, as well as lacking versatility due to almost requiring the perks of a choice set. Nidoqueen got essentially the power of Specs with no recoil or lockin effect. Sawk's general predictability (especially with Protect), lack of bulk, limitations while choiced and weaknesses without are
    all reasons it should not be banned. Sawk's great, but requires perfect prediction, a safe switch and the right item for the opponent's team to be actually "broken". Thing's strong though.
     
  28. Big Bad Booty Daddy

    Big Bad Booty Daddy Big Poppa Pump

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    After the Liepard thread, the NU Tier Leaders (Finch, Incon, and I) clearly stated that we won't tolerate these kind of posts. If you're unaware of why Pokemon move up to certain tiers, and down to certain tiers, you shouldn't be posting here at all.

    This goes for everyone. If you're going to post, please be intelligent about it. And know what you're talking about. The word "Centralize' gets thrown around way too much, and I feel like not everybody can fully describe how a Pokemon centralizes a tier. If you're going to use the word centralizing, please talk about what your definition of centralization means.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 30, 2013
  29. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    Okay so I made a mistake... I still stand by my points.
     
  30. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    What points?
    Your points are now all invalid since the main reasoning you used has been proven incorrect (in Nidoqueen and Emboar bans actually just them being raised up via usage!!!)


    As Cased said, please know what you're talking about prior to posting!
     
  31. Yui.

    Yui. Member

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    Tbh the whole fighting/dark/psychic core thing is what let me to make my #1 peak team in NU. The trick was to NOT use any Psychics or Ghost and just make the team balanced enough to be able to take out Normal/Fightings from an offensive standpoint while still effectively using a stall core for the more Fire Water Grassy part of the metagame. What this means is that Sawk + Pursuit trappers was threatening enough for me to literally COMPLETELY AVOID that entire part of the metagame, and it is a BIG part indeed. However, to me, this is sort of what defines OU. Regardless of whether sawk is broken or not, it defines the metagame, and it is indeed a good metagame that it has formed. However, adding in Houndoom DOES in fact change something in terms of pursuit trapping. There are two very simple reasons why. 1) It has incredible offensive versatility 2) YOU CAN'T BURN IT, HOUNDOOM IS A COLD ASS FOX. Misdreavus could easily be defensive and just burn incoming skuntanks in the past. It was a way of life for NUers. I will admit that musharna doesn't feel the difference nearly as hard, except for the fact that there are WAY more pursuit trappers present now. The balance of the fighting/psychic/ghost sector of the meta has been thrown out of whack, and to try to fix it, we are suspecting the pokemon that has always been there instead of the one who just came in. Sawk is being suspected NOW, but what changed? Maybe I'm off base and this has just been waiting to happen. I don't keep up with this stuff, so I don't know, but if Sawk is being opposed so much more strongly NOW, maybe it has to do with the other tier changes rather than sawk just having always been broken.

    In conclusion, Houndoom is the new kid on the block and is probably the cause of imbalance in the fighting/psychic/ghost part of the meta, and while Sawk might be broken in some ways, it is a cornerstone of the metagame, and the metagame seemed to work in the past.
     
  32. Trakyan

    Trakyan Member

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    I want to make a few notes:
    -Just barely 2HKOing the premier walls doesnt mean its bad, a 2HKO is a 2HKO. The fact it barely does so doesnt save them.
    -Also, i'd like to say that checks like vileplume which take closecombats from CB sawk and actually have recovery (unlike weezing, torkoal and so on) are reasonably easy to break with sawk alone, once vileplume takes a CB ice punch closecombat is a KO the next time they switch in.

    Which leaves musharna, which is sadly vulnerable to pursuit, even if it uses batton pass, if they crunch or dark pulse, same deal.

    Also, sawk's defenses arent that bad, his resistance to stealth rock and typing in general give him some easy switches against the likes of armaldo who give him a free turn anyway while they set rocks or spin. I'd also like to point out that sawk does actually dodge a few 2HKOs from bulkier pokemon like vileplume, who even with sludge bomb fall just short without investing in special attack, which they cant really afford to do. Sawk also dodges a number of OHKOs, sturdy aside. His speed is respectable even with a choice band set and sturdy can stop a number of revenge killers if you play a spinner properly.

    Right now only musharna really dodges the 2HKO from all of sawks attacks, and its trappable or rather easily weakened by the likes of skuntank and houndoom.
    Sure, it's a challenge to play around, and may be somewhat more resistant to priority than other powerhouses such as specs gardevoir, life orbed houndoom and the likes. But that's what makes it fun; the prediction; the challenge. Don't like it? Go play halo or whatever.

    I say dont ban it, and im speaking with a team relatively weak to sawk.

    Run checks, run musharna, play well.

    Maybe ditch the idea of just things like vileplume, golbat or whatever which "Might counter it but also might not if it decides to...." and go for something like i did with hariyama. Sturdy enough to take one hit from an adamant, choice band sawk and retaliate for an OHKO as long as it's at full health, and keep it that way. Keep it at full health and send it into sawk either by double switching, after a knock out or anything like that to revenge kill it, and threaten the rest of it's team if it decides to switch out and save itself. It turns the game into a matter of who can pick off the other guy faster, a nice way to play if you enjoy a challenge, and gets even better in a smaller tier like NU where it comes down to actual skill rather than a magikarp salesman style surprise.

    though, i must admit, it would be fun to play a tier without sawk with more walls or bulky attacks, and things like vileplume being able to run sets like a choice specs one rather than being forced to run a wall set.
     
  33. meeps

    meeps Well-Known Member

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    hi case keeps telling me to,post so i guess i will

    as it's been mentioned multiple times; band is what makes sawk the threat it is, and it is the reason sawk is being suspected. scarf sawk is obviously a big threat ofc as an effective revenge killer, but it lacks the power that band sawk brings to the field.

    anyways, i'd like to try and go against the points on why sawk is broken, so here i go:

    i can do the same and point out cb terrakion can 2hko pokes like skarmory and forretress in ou with close combat. clearly it shows the raw power both pokes have, but it's important to know both cannot spam close combat and proceed to steamroll through teams; but a fair share of teams do have their psychic/ghost/poison types that are capable of checking sawk, so it will require some prediction to play around sawk.

    you make it sound like musharna / missy can be pursuited and easily be taken down; standard skuntank will do about 55% max to missy and 50% max to mushy, then there is also the possibilities of missy using will-o-wisp on skuntank, doing significantly less damage, mesprit can use u-turn to safely switch out while doing decent damage on skuntank/houndoom switch-ins, and musharna can carry a t-wave baton pass set which works really nicely in the current meta and should be used more often tbh. hp ground is also becoming more common on cm variants. and prediction is a really big key, as misprediction may lead to skuntank being burned or houndoom taking a decent amount of damage from hp ground mushy.

    i dont like the point of "you have to run mushy so sawk doesnt beat you". as it has been mentioned, musharna is clearly not the only check to sawk in the tier, and musharna isnt always ran to be a sawk check, as it has more valuable niches such as being a cleric, bulky cm attacker, etc.

    was going to post something else but im getting tired and i keep dozing off, i might post more tomorrow idk

    also houndoom discussion isnt really necessary when this is sawk suspect discussion lol
     
  34. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I can see your points, afro smash, and we'd be arguing in circles at this point, I think. I still stand by the fact that its speed really is irrelevant for the most part, but it does out speed things like Samurott which you see everywhere so that's valid, if we're talking about things your random ladder player normally sticks to.

    Something that I really hate bringing up but is especially important is that it can't be stressed enough that Sawk is not a pokemon you can mindlessly play. You make one mistake - maybe you Ice Punch a torkoal when you wanted to hit a Rotom-S, or close combat an Exeggutor when you may have expected Alomomola - and all your momentum is gone. 75 in defense and HP still makes it extemely vulnerable, and isn't all that bulky. You can live several attacks from walls, but anything mildly offensive in NU can easily KO anything with those defenses. I know prediction has been brought up a lot, however with any pokemon that can be suspected purely because of its choice set, prediction is everything. And Sawk just doesn't remind me of the insanity that was Rhyperior in LU, which to me is the standard a choiced pokemon has to meet to be broken.
     
  35. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    @meeps respond to ma new post in response to p nerd, where i talk about comparisons to other tiers/metas, emboar + the predictability thing.

    The only 2 I can see in the top 50 are Specs Charizard and Zangoose, that's only 2 pokemon. Out of the other 10 or so that out speed (in top #50) only around 5 can revenge kill from full or near full.

    @P Nerd yeah well I guess we'll have to agree to disagree :P but the fact it can wall break so efficiently and still easily be effective on and against offensive teams take it a step above other wall breakers.

    And yh I know they're not gonna ban it, but I feel I've raised valid points and at least I got some discussion goin!

    Edit: Just wanna say if Sawk isn't banned and Houndoom is i'm quitting NU 5ever
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2013
  36. Accelgor

    Accelgor Active Member

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    Ok I'll admit it, Sawk is a force to be reckoned with in the current NU metagame. However, this doesn't mean that it's impossible to defeat in any way. Look at these usage statistics:
    [SECRET][​IMG]
    # 2 - Mesprit (13.39 %)
    [​IMG]
    # 4 - Misdreavus (11.70 %)
    # 7 - [​IMG]Musharna (10.59 %)
    # 11 - [​IMG]Alomomola (9.31 %)
    # 20 - [​IMG]Rotom-S (7.62 %)
    # 27 - [​IMG]Weezing (6.07 %)
    # 28 - [​IMG]Tangela (5.95 %)
    [/SECRET]

    You see, there are at least seven possible defensive [FONT=Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]checks/counters [/FONT][FONT=Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]to be found just in the top thirty of the usage statistics (yes, 252 HP/252 Def Rotom-S is a thing). [/FONT][FONT=Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If you[/FONT][FONT=Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] aren't using one or more of the pokemon listed above, chances are that your team will have a severe problem finding an answer to Sawk's rampage. Even if you don't run any of the pokemon listed above, there are plenty of other underused pokemon, such as Vileplume, Mandibuzz, and Golbat, that can counter one or more of Sawk's moves. If you can't afford to waste a team slot on a defensively oriented pokemon (hyper offense teams), then remember that Sawk sits at an average 85 base speed tier. Although Sawk can run a somewhat effective Choice Scarf set to remedy its speed, it's considerably weaker than the Choice Band variant (which is the set run by people about 80% of the time). This means it can commonly be outrun by one or more of the following:
    [SECRET]
    [/FONT][​IMG]
    # 3 - Houndoom (11.95 %)
    # 10 - [​IMG]Klinklang (9.48 %) (probably not without the +2 speed boost from Shift Gear, as most of you probably run the smogon sets.)
    # 12 - [​IMG]Zangoose (9.07 %)
    # 13 - [​IMG]Primeape (8.76 %)
    # 20 - [​IMG]Rotom-S (7.62 %)
    # 22 - [​IMG]Swellow (6.36 %)
    # 23 - [​IMG]Charizard (6.31 %)
    # 26 - [​IMG]Gorebyss (6.17 %) (Same story as Klingklang)
    # 30 - [​IMG]Kangaskhan (5.71 %)[FONT=Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/SECRET]

    ...and the list goes on (I stopped again at the 30 benchmark just for convenience). Keep in mind that threats not listed here, like Drapion, Kadabra, Tauros, Electrode, Sawsbuck, etc., are still viable choices when countering Sawk. As said before, if you aren't running any of the pokemon listed above, then chances are that you will struggle immensely against Sawk. Again, there are a plethora of other possible underused pokemon that can outrun and KO Sawk as well, so you aren't necessarily limited to what I have listed. Running your own Sawk is also an option, but you would have to decide whether to run Adamant for the sheer power boost or Jolly to possibly outrun/speed tie with other Sawk . Sawk also runs two abilities in Sturdy and Mold Breaker. Sturdy effectively gives it a Focus Sash, allowing it to withstand one attack from full health. One way to go about nullifying this perk is to place early-game hazards down. After Sawk's Sturdy is broken, it's all a matter of outspeeding and KOing with any offensive pokemon above 85 base speed. If Sawk runs Mold Breaker, then it's considerably harder to switch in to its attacks. Former counters/checks like Misdreavus, Haunter, and Weezing have they ability Levitate nullified and are 2hko'd (or in Haunter's case 1hko'd) by Earthquake. Be sure to remember that it's more susceptible to attacks now, and the trick is to eliminate Sawk with one of your own offensive pokemon before it proceeds to obliterate your team.

    Personally, I don't think Sawk is broken, but it's REALLY close to being so due to its impeccable coverage and supreme wall breaking abilities, hence why it sits at #1 atop the usage statistics.
    [/FONT]
     
  37. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    Out of the defensive checks/counters you mentioned only Mesprit, Musharna, Misdreavus and Vileplume are really acceptable tbh. Momo and Tangela are both 2HKO'd after Rocks the majority of the time. Defensive Rotom-S can tank a banded Close Combat very well but dies to Stone Edge after Rocks, and even risks a 2HKO after Rocks with CC (albeit only a 20% chance). Not to mention that set is hardly ever used anymore in the current offensive metagame. Mandibuzz is 2HKO'd even without SR by Close Combat, so hardly a check. Weezing takes around 66-78% from EQ thanks to Mold Breaker and Golbat can't take two Ice Punches. That requires prediction however, but to be fair you don't have much of a choice when facing Banded Sawk then to go into your Sawk check/counter so it's usually safe to predict.


    While there are pokemon that outspeed Sawk, there's not a single one that wants to take a hit from Sawk. Even offensive Mesprit gets 2HKO'd, while Haunter get's OHKO'd by EQ, Stone Edge and even Ice Punch. The final result with this pokemon that outspeed Sawk is that you either have to have a Sawk counter, or sacrifice a pokemon to bring them in safely.

    My point is, while there are checks to Sawk they're all very on the edge/risky. With Sawk gone other playstyles like stall would become viable. Just look at the top five on the usage stats right now and tell me it's not ridiculous -.- There's Sawk, two of the best checks/counters to Sawk and two pokemon that trap Sawk's counters. Sawk is clearly the problem here.

    I don't want to say centralizing... but tbh this is as close as it gets. Ban Sawk already.
     
  38. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    The usage stats do show that Sawk has a massive impact on the metagame, but overcentralising? idk, because a lot of those pokemon are great in their own right and are there to do more things than counter Sawk, Mesprit sets up rocks + gets momentum with U-Turn, Misdreavus spin blocks and stall breaks, Musharna can act as a Calm mind Sweeper + Tangela/Alo are your go to physical walls. I do still think Sawk is broken and that the metagame would be better off with him gone, but im not sure about overcentralising.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2013
  39. ZoroDark

    ZoroDark i know everything

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    I may not play a lot of NU, but I don't believe Sawk is broken at all.

    The set that caused Sawk to become a set is his Choice Band set. This means Sawk cannot switch its moves without switching in and out. This is incredibly basic knowledge, but some of you are making it sound like Sawk will always click the right move against whatever threat would come in. In reality, this is impossible without being a prediction god. Scenario: CB Sawk comes in freely (after something is killed probably, since it's not that easy to bring it in), and the opposing team has against Glaceon. The opponent also has Wartortle/Vileplume and Rotom-S in the wings. If Sawk uses Ice Punch, and Glaceon may stay in, attack, and then Sawk is dead and gone. If Sawk uses Close Combat, Vileplume may switch in and something on the Sawk get status'd. Even if you Ice Punch and the opponent decided to switch in Vileplume, the Vileplume loses around 65%. Again, you stand for a 50/50. Will he switch out to Wartortle to spin away my hazards or predict my double switch and Synthesis. See what I'm getting at?Sure, Sawk is a great poke, but I don't think it's broken because 1. it requires the boost of Choice Band to be an effective wall breaker (compared to something like Tornadus-I or Landorus-I in OU) and 2. even with the Choice Band boost it cannot possibly muscle past Defensive Psychic types such as Musharna or invested Mesprit.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2013
  40. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Thing is in that scenario it only needs to predict correctly with the Ice Punch once, after that it's free to spam Close Combat with a guarantee to 2HKO everything, assuming that Rotom-S wasn't Defensive. And the hard Counters aren't difficult to dispatch if you pair him up with a trapper, unless you're pro and run T-Wave Baton Pass Mush.

    In fact that's true with most of Sawk's Checks, you only need to hit them with the correct coverage move once to be able to demolish them next time with Close Combat, so the amount of prediction required isn't as high as people make it out to be.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2013
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