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[BW2] Sawk Suspect Discussion

Discussion in 'Gen 5 NU' started by Finchinator, Jul 28, 2013.

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  1. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    I'd appreciate it if tier leaders + others responded to my points before making their decision, and not just once, id like to get an actual discussion going, only p nerd has actually done so, so far.
     
  2. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I'd make more active responses myself, but suspect discussion have never been a strong point of mine, due to my suspect reasoning being second class at best (mostly because I don't battle on the simulator very often).

    I personally don't see it as broken, as there are ways to play around it. One fun answer I stumbled across:

    Timid Rotom-S @ Leftovers
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid

    -Air Slash
    -Volt Switch
    -Thunderbolt
    -Filler

    Speedy + bulky Rotom-S. It'll survive a CB Close Combat
    (252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-S: 148-174 (48.68 - 57.23%) -- 47.66% chance to 2HKO)
    , having CB Sawk think it's the defensive version and try for another CC. But Rotom-S' highly convenient base 86 means it'll outrun Jolly Sawk, and punish it with an Air Slash, practically guaranteeing the OHKO due to spinning being near impossible in NU.

    0 SpA Rotom-S Air Slash vs. -1 0 HP / 0 SpD Sawk: 320-378 (109.96 - 129.89%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    I dunno about you guys, but that seems almost tailor made as a way past CB Sawk. Sure, it's only ONE answer, and Rotom takes a shitload from it, but it's an answer at least?
     
  3. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    I mean, its good for surprising Sawk, but not for much else, you're better off just running a fully defensive one imo, since at least that can live a super effective Stone Edge if you get predicted.

    Also please detail these ways to play around it.
     
  4. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Well the first obvious one is that when it locks itself into a move, it's locked. Playing on resistances isn't always ideal with something as powerful as CB Sawk, but if your team doesn't have a resist for every move (obviously not the same pokemon), you need a new team. It isn't amazingly fast, so offensive teams can often pressure it. Sure, it'll likely get a kill, but that leaves it highly vulnerable to revenge killing. Common Volt Switchers like Zebstrika and the aforementioned Rotom-S can keep momentum on your side too, by either switching out on Sawk/whatever comes in, or predicting whatever comes in and potentially hitting that hard.

    It isn't great, but it works.
     
  5. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Well they can only threaten it out if Sawk has lowered special Defense from CC and if they're specs (if they're going for Volt Switch), only a handful of the pokemon that outspeed Sawk can revenge kill it from full, although this number obviously increases if they come in after a Close Combat. And to be honest of what pokemon isn't that true? you can bring in a fast pokemon to gain momentum on pretty much anything, and the fact that only a handful of pokemon are able to reliably revenge kill Sawk compared to other pokemon makes it seem even more broken in my eyes.

    And going back to my other point with Zorodark, say if you had a team of 4 pokemon that resisted each of Sawk's moves, lets say Weezing, Piloswine, Gurdurr and Rotom-S, only 1 thing can avoid the 2HKO from Close Combat and that's Weezing, which means you are going to be more inclined to go into it. If the person using Sawk predicts this and goes for EQ, then resistances to it's other moves become a nil point as it can just fire off Close Combats on everything and be guaranteed a 2HKO, so it isn't too easy to build a team that can easily handle Sawk, unless you run 2 counters/checks, which you should never be forced to do for one pokemon. And this also kinda makes the prediction point nul as well, since only one good prediction means you get to freely spam Close Combat without thinking for the rest of the match.
     
  6. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    I'm liking most of the discussion on Sawk, definetly some thought-provoking and insightful posts. However, please don't use prediciton as a reason for Sawk to be broken / not broken as it's a 2-way-street and assuming you outplay the opponent (or vice versa) makes your arguement invalid.

    I am going to state my opinion (I think I previously did - but that was a while back.) Sawk is a big threat, but it has a fair share of checks / counters. Musharna (which is very common, for those using Sawk's being common as an arguement), Misdreavus (another prominent wall in NU), and Mesprit (support, bulky, and kinda the offensive ones) are its main stops. However, it has a long list of checks such as: Weezing, Hypno (lol), Golbat, Rotom-S (eh), Garbodor (eh), Gardevoir (eh), etc.

    I could go into much more detail, but it's late.
    So,

    TL;DR: Sawk can be walled somewhat easily - it isn't broken.
     
  7. MewTheDestroyer

    MewTheDestroyer God

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    Just gonna say CB Terrakion can't two hit Skarmory with Close Combat if it's the standard set for each Pokemon. If you decide to be "original" and run Adamant Terrakion, then you do two hit, but no one but me does that, I think.

    Now to the topic at hand. Sawk two hits almost everything that doesn't resist Close Combat with the Choice Band boost, so? Emboar and Nidoqueen did the same on Smogon and they never got banned. Sure, they were probably suspected at one point and thought to get a test, but they never were banned. They both moved up from usage. Sawk suffers from having to predict correctly, or having to keep switching around, mainly because Sawk is almost never seen unchoiced. I know I didn't say much, but I suck at NU so whatever. :l

    Finch Edit: Standard CB Terrakion 2hkos Standard Physically Defensive Skarmory. Otherwise, good points.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 5, 2013
  8. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Cheers Finch :]

    But on to your points, all of those Counters are easily dispatched or weakened by a Dark type with Pursuit, if a Dark type directly switches into a Psychic/Ghost type then yes there is a chance for it to escape unscathed, (U-Turn/T-Wave Baton Pass/ Will o Wisp) however they won't always be running those sets and the Dark type might be running Lum. However if the Dark type comes in for free then there is no realistic way of the psychic/Ghost type escaping without taking 30/40% damage, regardless of how you predict, and this means Sawk is guaranteed to 2HKO when they next come in with either SE or EQ, and if rocks are up then likely to with Close Combat as well. It's only Counters are quite easy to wear down/kill since it's near impossible for them to escape a Dark type for free.

    And you go on to say it has a long list of checks and list like 2 good ones, both of which can be dispatched by the correct coverage move, so are not reliable, i know there are more but if it comes down to prediction then it's 50/50, becoming a nil point. And i know you don't want people bringing up prediction but they have since it is a CB set, and as I've stated many times now you only need to make one good prediction on the incoming Check to just spam Close Combat the rest of the game.

    @mew

    I don't think Sawk should be banned just because he can 2HKO the whole tier with minimal team support, it's also the fact that his speed tier is such that he can outpace the vast majority of NU, and of those that can outspeed only a handful can OHKO from full, and he can perform incredibly well on and against nearly every playstyle. I also think he's stagnated the tier and made teams a lot less diverse, as you are forced to run few select pokemon lest he rampage through your team, this final point doesn't contribute to his brokenness, its just my opinion.

    Also i've already spoken about Emboar, it is way slower so is far easier to revenge kill, takes full damage from rocks, has a weakness to common Ground and Water attacks, and every one of it's moves leave it more vulnerable to revenge killers either through recoil or stat drops.

    And as for Nidoqueen I've already stated I'm not as knowledgeable, but some Counters/Checks I can think of Cryogonal, Slowking, Support Gallade, Clefable, Uxie, Munchlax, Sp Def Rotom (though that's kinda ew) and you may say like meeps said that many of these can be pursuit trapped, except Dark types don't really want to be switching into any of these Pokemon, and if they predict wrong with the Pursuit, LU's Psychic types can punish them a lot more than NU's psychic types can with crippling status or heavy damage.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2013
  9. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    How I just found this I don't know... Anyway, that's not important lol. As others had said, the Scarf set doesn't hit as hard and can easily be revenge killed, so let's look at the CB Set. (for my experience I peaked at #6 on the ladder).

    In my opinion, there's plenty to counter it that's used highly in the NU metagame. For example, whatever it uses, Musharna can come in for a counter along with Weezing (barring Mold Breaker EQ), Roselia, Mesprit (given Sash is still there), and Vileplume just to name a few. As for checks, we have Haunter, Kadabra, Rotom-S, Gardevoir, and Metang also to name a few. There's also Gurdurr who knocks it out cold 1v1 along with stuff like Misdreavus who can use WoW and thus render it useless.

    So should it be banned? No, adjust your team to the new meta as I have. Sorry that this is short, but I'm busy atm and I just wanted to speak my piece.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 7, 2013
  10. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    I agree with you and your overall opinion - Sawk being fine in NU. However, I believe your reasoning is slightly flawed. Pokemon listed such as Musharna, Weezing (barring Mold Breaker EQ), Misdreavus, Mesprit (I have no clue why you're saying anything about a Sash, Sash Mesprit isn't even a thing), and even Vileplume are decent checks or counters to Sawk. However, pokemon like Roselia, Gurdurr, and Kadabra fail to live hits and two of the three are slower.

    Here are some calculations to explain why Roselia, Gurdurr, and Kadabra fail to 'check' or 'counter' Sawk:

    252 Atk Choice Band Sawk (+Atk) Close Combat vs 252 HP/0 +1 Def Roselia: 64.14% - 75.99% (2 hits to KO) - Easily 2 hit by this and any coverage move.
    252 Atk Choice Band Sawk (+Atk) Close Combat vs 252 HP/0 +1 Def Gurdurr: 64.17% - 75.67% (2 hits to KO) - Easily 2 hit.
    252 Atk Choice Band Sawk (+Atk) Close Combat vs 0 HP/0 Def Kadabra: 173.76% - 204.98% (Guaranteed OHKO) - Sash isn't that great an answer, imo.
     
  11. Starstorms

    Starstorms The stormiest of stars

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    I have peaked over 1400 on the 1n73r3571ng alt i have and i am the top seed on my tehtrolkid13 alt for tours. I can honestly say in all that time, sawk has never given me the slightest bit of trouble. Sawk is just not that good if it isn't choiced so let's dismiss those thoughts automatically. Sawk is not that strong of a pokemon. Sawk Adamant Choice Banded does 50% to an Alomomola. After lefties and a protect it can even survive after rocks and proceed to outstall it out of it's 8 close combat pp. Musharna, another pokemon walls the choice banded earthquakes. Mesprit takes it on even choice banded earthquakes don't ohko and Mesprit can retailiate with powerful psychics. Kadabra, if Sawk is not at sturdy and if it has its sash intact swiftly takes it out with a psychic. If you have protect, you easily scout the move sawk is going for and make the appropriate move. It's not too hard to figure out the damage output of banded and scarf differences so if you figure out the item, that makes your job so much easier. Weezing walls Sawk clean except for banded varients, Rotom S can take anything outside of Stone Edges and Ice Punches. The key to beating a Sawk is not to wall its entire set, it's to figure out its item and correctly predict the move. So my answer is: NOT BROKEN
     
  12. Incon

    Incon I feel incapable of seeing the end.

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    Thanks to everyone who shared their thoughts and created good discussion. Taking into consideration what has been posted, Finch, Cased, and I have deemed Sawk not broken in NU and thus, it will be staying in the tier.

    Be on the look out for another suspect thread in the near future.
     
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