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[BW2] Houndoom Suspect Discussion

Discussion in 'Gen 5 NU' started by Incon, Aug 13, 2013.

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  1. Incon

    Incon I feel incapable of seeing the end.

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    [​IMG]



    Discuss the possibility of Houndoom being banned from the Wifi NU tier. Use this thread to discuss Houndoom's effect on the metagame. Talk about the different sets it can use, good partners and potential checks/counters. State your opinion on whether you think Houndoom should be banned or if it should stay in the Wifi NU tier but make sure your posts are backed up by experience and knowledge. Anyone who makes post based on theorymon risks being infracted. This thread will be up for a minimum of two weeks. If a vote is needed, this topic will be bumped, and details will be provided.

    Woof.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 13, 2013
  2. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Before anyone comments and states thier opinions, lets remember to follow the Posting Guidelines when stating your opinion, arguing, etc.

    Also, if you are to use terms such as check, counter, revenge-killed, OHKOd, etc. make sure you know what it means and that your statement is true (opinions are obviously ok, especially when backed by facts. However, we don't want anything silly like Roselia countering Sawk because it resists fighting - CC 2hkos it.)

    Finally, to start the discussion off:

    Houndoom's two main sets are:

    Houndoom (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
    - Sucker Punch
    - Crunch / Hidden Power [Grass]
    - Pursuit
    - Fire Blast

    Houndoom (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Nasty Plot
    - Fire Blast
    - Hidden Power [Grass]
    - Dark Pulse

    Feel free to use one (or both) prior to drawing a conclusion or forming an opinion on Houndoom. As these are the most commonly used, they should be the bases of discussion (while something like Choice Scarf Houndoom should be taken out of the equation.)
     
  3. meeps

    meeps Well-Known Member

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    not going to post much now but i really need to stress a point:

    houndoom can only run one item and four moves

    it's just really annoying when suspect discussions go out, and by the info collected from reading the thread, it can be infered houndoom can run sucker punch pursuit fire blast nasty plot dark pulse etc etc (hypothetical situation, but just look at some other suspect discussions, e.g. lando-i)

    when in terms of this suspect discussion, the most likely point that will be brought up is houndoom's pursuit trapping abilities. it has a niche over other trapper such as skuntank/drapion, due to its immunity to will-o-wisp and fire attacks overall, which severely cripple skuntank/drapion. then it also has its disadvantages against the other pursuit trappers, mainly having a worse defensive typing, weakness to sr, having rather poor bulk overall. basically the pursuit trappers have pros/cons, which somewhat even out their abilities. honestly, anyone who claims houndoom should be banned due to its ability to trap ghost and psychics is basically saying pursuit trapping should be banned overall; which is a rather shitty argument

    now on to the nasty plot set. i really would like to emphasize the point i made at the beginning of my post; houndoom is not capable of being a pursuit trapper AND a nasty plot sweeper. that being said the two roles houndoom has in the tier are completely different, the first set finch posted is best known for being a pursuit trapper, while the second one being a wallbreaker/late-game sweeper. both of these sets have advantages/disadvantages over each other, dont want to go into too much detail, but the nasty plot set basically allows houndoom to hit much of the tier very hard after a nasty plot boost, but it struggles to setup successfully due to poor bulk and it can be revenge killed rather easily. pursuit trapper can trap pokes like musharna and missy to help support teammates like sawk but lacks wallbreaking capabilities

    also just wanna say twave/bp musharna is really cool and underrated and makes a really nice houndoom check not being pursuit-trapped as easily
     
  4. Trakyan

    Trakyan Member

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    I'd like to say that pretty much no one runs nasty plot houndoom.
    it tends to run suckerpunch/fire stab/dark pulse or crunch/pursuit. All it needs in one set with evs varying from specially offensive to physically offensive.

    Anyways, checks and counters....
    [secret]
    I've used lapras, it has only lost to a houndoom twice and one of those times involved crits and burns while the other involved a crit, a nice check though lack of recovery and rock weakness hurts a bit, but it's bulk is exceptional. Altaria is another choice, it has good bulk, recovery in roost and resists houndoom's strongest attack which leaves it vulnerable only to the weaker dark pulse or crunch which im pretty sure arent a 2HKO even after rocks:

    252 Atk Life Orb Houndoom Crunch vs. 252 HP / 196 Def Altaria: 118-140 (33.33 - 39.54%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
    thats the bear minimum altaria needs to live two crunches, invest the rest in special defense and you fare like this against a specially offensive one
    252 SpA Life Orb Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 60+ SpD Altaria: 125-148 (35.31 - 41.8%) -- 17.97% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    now you can even this out so it has a 8% or so chance to 2HKO from either spread, not ideal but pretty good

    regirock is another idea:
    252 SpA Life Orb Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Regirock: 109-130 (29.94 - 35.71%) -- 57.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
    and we all know it has no hope of doing anything with crunch. Regirock can t wave, set rocks or outright KO it

    lickilicky
    252 SpA Life Orb Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky: 169-200 (39.85 - 47.16%) -- 1.95% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    better than altaria i suppose, if the houndoom runs overheat as well a fire blast+overheat combo could do more damage. But hey, it's a middle ground, recovery and ability to take the hits which is between altaria and regirock. I think protect might also pull it out of 2HKO range with lefties recovery. Keeping it at max health would be hard though.

    Lapras is another check
    252 SpA Life Orb Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Lapras: 169-200 (36.5 - 43.19%) -- 47.66% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    And i think munchlax goes without saying
    [/secret]

    Houndoom resists suckerpunch which is the strongest priority move around and one of the most common, ice shard and bullet punch from metang and piloswine wont be doing much either. Mach punch from gurdurr is about it and aqua jet from sammurot.

    It puts a heck of a lot of pressure on teams, most special walls are hit by it either for a 2HKO or super effectively while physical walls, which have the typing, lack the bulk to take fire blasts or dark pulses.

    That said it misses out on a number of OHKOs which leaves it open for retaliation from some bulkier pokemon, but that goes both ways as things like surf from lapras dont OHKO, they do around 80% if memory serves.

    I'd say the straight off, LO specially based attacker is the best, nasty plot doesnt add much to it in my opinion. It's also the best pursuit trapper around imo, musharna cant touch it as it rarely runs anything bar psychic to attack while it is immune to WoW, in fact it likes it, from missdrevous and resists shadowball. Skuntank and drapion are bulkier, but drapion prefers to SD while skuntank is vulnerable to WoW and is generally less threatening.

    Also, can people stops comparing this to something in OU like they did with the sawk discussion. In OU terrakion is hit super effectively by two priority technician users, in NU sawk resists suckerpunch which is the strongest and most common priority move, there are no technician users and isnt hit super effectively by priority at all. So dont compare houndoom to anything in OU, it's a different metagame in so many ways with so many different aspects. It's not thunderus T or landorus I, it's houndoom.

    Anyways... im not sure where i stand on this one... I can deal with it whatever way the decision goes, i'd vote for it to stay as its the only real offensive presence that keeps ghosts and psychics in check

    Also, musharna is in no way a houndoom check.... And fails if something like primape u turns and lures in musharna for houndoom to batter with a dark pulse and pursuit mind game during which musharna has a high likelyhood of walking away too cripples to take two attacks from something like sawk which it's meant to wall.
     
  5. MewTheDestroyer

    MewTheDestroyer God

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    Houndoom, while being a good Pokemon overall, isn't broken. Like meeps said, Houndoom can be thought of a tad bit like Landorus-I, as it can't run every set and every move it wants to. It is limited to one item and four moves.
     
  6. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    I do want to point out that Houndoom is much better at taking out pokemon that Sawk can't kill. Since it can't get burned by Misdreavus, Misdreavus will always get Pursuit-trapped. Before Houndoom dropped, the only commonly used trapper was Skuntank, which is very susceptible to burn.

    It also has Fire Blast to destroy Tangela and Vileplume while Alomomola gets 2HKO'd by HP Grass. This leads me to believe that Houndoom is much more powerful than the other Pursuit-trappers in NU, as the combination of Sawk and Houndoom is almost impossible to defeat. The pair has completely centralized the metagame, just look at the top 6 in the usage statistics. This Psychic/Dark/Fighting core is just too powerful for the rest of NU to compete, meaning that if you don't use it yourself you're more than likely going to lose.

    That's why I believe Houndoom should be banned from NU.
     
  7. Um Hello?

    Um Hello? Member

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    It's quite hard to determine which needs banning more, Sawk or Houndoom, as the FDP core they form with (normally Musharna) is just so good, it's seen in so many teams.

    However Houndoom is just a bit too good for NU, as an extra note, whilst the 2 main sets given are the most common I find sets with slight differences to them more threatening to most of my teams, (Like Suckerpunch over Nasty Plot for example.)

    Houndoom can threaten a huge amount of the tier just with it's stabs, whether they're super effective or not a LO FireBlast is going to hurt basically everything in NU, with a couple of exceptions, I'm just going to compare it to Sawk here as Sawk was recently suspected and is one of the most common Offensive partners of Houndoom.

    I'm sure one of the main reasons Sawk was determined not broken was because the best sets are choiced, either scarf or band. Houndoom does not have this problem. With Sawk if you predict a CC you switch in a ghost. If with Houndoom you predict a Fire Blast, you have to be ready to take a Dark Pulse or HP Grass (depending on set)

    On another note Houndoom's ability, Flash Fire, really does not play a large role, as there really aren't a lot of Pokemon that use a STAB Fire move in the tier, (non STAB like HP Fire from a lot of things or a Flamethrower from a Seviper or Octillery for example are a lot harder to predict and is risky to switch in.)

    Houndoom also has a nice base speed, which allows it to outspeed a large amount of the unboosted or non-scarfed tier.


    Hence I believe Houndoom should be banned from NU.
     
  8. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Saw Seviper in this thread and got kind of sad. Regardless of what the mention is for. Eelectross or HP Fire Vileplume would have been better examples.

    Houndoom is far from broken in my experience. It traps Musharna and Misdreavus very effectively yes, but it is by no means insurmountable or overly powerful. Its STABs give it good coverage but also come as a double edge sword in a weakness to SR and a dickload of important attacking types (Rock, Fighting, Ground, Water), which is especially harmful considering it's less than impressive defensive stats. (75/50/80). Pokémon such as Seismitoad and Gastrodon put a clean stop to variants lacking HP Grass (or Sunny Day Solarbeam I guess but that's predicable as they come) and even then, 252 SpA Life Orb Houndoom Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Seismitoad: 307-364 (74.15 - 87.92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Gurdurr is impossible for Houndoom to OHKO without Overheat (doing about 87% on a max roll with Life Orb Fire Blast 252 SpA Life Orb Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gurdurr: 263-309 (70.32 - 82.62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.

    Houndoom is a wallbreaker aswell. By definition a wallbreaker is difficult or near impossible to switch into 100% safely. You can't switch into Terrakion with complete safety with anything in OU. You can't switch in on Heracross with complete safety in UU, it's the nature of a wallbreaker, just because it 2KOs most Pokémon given one of it's many possible moves, does not make it broken. As Meeps said, it can only run 4 moves and one item. If you wish to wall it you must find out what sets it's running. Ok it can run a surprise HP Grass on the trapper set. It's certainly not going to OHKO your Seismitoad though, as it lacks the investment to do so, it can also only run 508 effective EVs. Skuntank can run HP Grass or Ground on its sets to hit things like Klingklang, Seismitoad etc if it needs to as well. It's the same deal, you can't count the dedicated special attacker's power in a "surprise I have HP Grass" set. It's going to be notably weaker. Or it's going to sacrifice the set's main functionality (trapper) to not be weaker. Sorry if this post is a bit disjoined but eh

    Ssased was confused. Houndoom not borked don't ban

    Also Nicehat and Ssased were nice enough to point out Thick Fat Hariyama and Emboar. gg Doom
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2013
  9. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Houndoom is a great pokemon which has a lot going for it with 2 key Immunities to Fire + Psychic, great Sp Atk and Speed stats, respectable Special Defense and very threatening dual STAB's. However it also has a lot holding it back. I'm going to focus on it's Specially focused mixed attacking set since I believe it is easily it's best set.

    Mixed Attacker:
    Houndoom (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Hasty Nature (+Spd, -Def)
    - Hidden Power [Grass]
    - Dark Pulse
    - Sucker Punch
    - Fire Blast

    This set is very strong and has great coverage, however it will fail to get past numerous special walls such as Lickilicky, Munchlax, Altaria, Mandibuzz, Lapras, Regirock, Mantine, Camerupt + strongly invested Alomomola. And all these Counters/Checks can threaten Houndoom out with a super effective STAB attack, or any Physical attack (apart from Altaria, but it still wins 1 on 1). As Weavile said Houndoom has horrible defensive typing, being weak to Water, Fighting, Ground and Rock, all of which are incredibly common, and 2 of them come in the form of priority in Aqua Jet and Mach Punch, which are seen on the very common Samurott and Gurdurr. It's Physical Defense is pitiful taking a huge amount from even resisted hits. It's also susceptible to every form of entry hazard, including a weakness to SR, so that plus life orb recoil means it won't be alive for very long.

    In Summary:
    • Lacks Power - Fails to get past numerous Special Walls.
    • Poor Defense + Defensive typing - Falls prey to Aqua Jet + Mach Punch (2 common Priority attacks), almost all Physically based Scarfers and generally any hit on the Physical side. Very easy to revenge kill.
    • Worn down easily - Is affected by all Entry Hazards, is weak to the ever common Stealth Rocks and has to run a Life Orb to be effective.


    Nasty Plot - Struggles to find opportunities to set up, fails to kill most of the previously mentioned Special Walls even when at +2

    Trapper - It is better at Trapping Misdreavus than Skunk/Drap since it has an immunity to Will o Wisp, however it is worse at trapping other Psychics + Ghosts since it's more easily worn down over the course of the match by Rocks, Life Orb, Mesprit's U-Turn + worse Defensive typing, and does not offer any additional physical attack to make up for it.

    If the Houndoom/Musharna/Sawk core is broken, then it is down to Musharna or Sawk, not Houndoom.

    Houndoom is definitely Not Broken.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2013
  10. meeps

    meeps Well-Known Member

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    time to post

    about 25% of houndoom carry nasty plot, i don't think you can consider that as 'no one' runs it.

    keep in mind houndoom's physical bulk is abysmal, only 75 base hp and 50 base def, it probably won't take much from ice shard or bullet punch but sucker punch from virtually anything will 2hko houndoom. quick attack zangoose also exists.

    these two points basically tell me houndoom can run more than four moves, especially the second point, it's like you're saying houndoom can run pursuit, fire blast, dark pulse, crunch, sucker punch, etc etc. also just to name some special walls off the top of my head: lickilicky, probopass, regice, altaria, mantine, etc. of those pokes i listed regice is probably the only one that may struggle with non nasty plot special attacker houndoom. not sure how you call skuntank less threatening when it remains one of the best pursuit trappers in the tier even with houndoom in the tier. also musharna commonly run hp ground to deal with dark-types now js.

    your post leads me to believe houndoom is capable of not only successfully pursuit trapping musharna/misdreavus, but it can also go right ahead and 2hko alomomola with hp grass. this condition is extremely hard, if not impossible to achieve. i mean you cant just pursuit misdreavus then go to alomomola and expect hp grass from houndoom to 2hko alomomola. alomomola is capable of taking an hp grass, using wish, and eventually stalling houndoom to death or using waterfall to do a significant amount of damage. also dont like everyone saying psychic/dark/fighting core is the greatest thing in nu; i have multiple viable teams that i've used in pocl and other important battles that did not utilize a psychic dark fight core.

    pretty sure i can name a bunch of pokes that are capable of taking fire blast / dark pulse from houndoom fairly easily. spdef alomomola, spdef seismitoad, spdef ludicolo, lickilicky, regirock, emboar, the list just goes on and on. point is houndoom has as many offensive checks, if not more than other major offensive threats such as sawk.


    ok im bored now
     
  11. Daybreak

    Daybreak can't touch this

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    I think the main reason why houndoom is being suspected is for the fact it can reliably do tons of dammage to the common standard threats of the nu metagame. This I will not deny as a fact. However, it is not impossible to wall either. A lot of houndoom counters lie in the low percent usage statistics of nu and most litter in neu as well. Here I have damage calculations for some premier houndoom counters that face both sets upon switch in (a +2SpA houndoom and a pursuit trapping houndoom as well). These are the most powerful moves houndoom can use on each situation.


    4 SpA Life Orb Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 12 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Hariyama: 90-107 (20.83 - 24.76%) -- possible 6HKO
    +2 252 SpA Life Orb Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 12 HP / 252+ SpD Thick Fat Hariyama: 222-263 (51.38 - 60.87%) -- 92.58% chance to 2HKO
    +2 252 SpA Life Orb Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 242-286 (51.05 - 60.33%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Life Orb Houndoom Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Munchlax: 179-212 (37.76 - 44.72%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252 Atk Life Orb Houndoom Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mantine: 121-142 (36.33 - 42.64%) -- 96.63% chance to 3HKO
    +2 252 SpA Life Orb Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 173-204 (51.95 - 61.26%) -- 96.09% chance to 2HKO
    4 SpA Life Orb Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Emboar: 129-153 (35.73 - 42.38%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    4 SpA Life Orb Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Gurdurr: 211-250 (56.41 - 66.84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    4 SpA Life Orb Houndoom Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Regirock: 104-125 (28.57 - 34.34%) -- possible 4HKO
    +2 252 SpA Life Orb Houndoom Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Regirock: 255-302 (70.05 - 82.96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Life Orb Houndoom Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Alomomola: 160-188 (29.96 - 35.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
    +2 252 SpA Life Orb Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 344-407 (64.41 - 76.21%) -- guaranteed 2HKO[/HIDE]

    The list doesn't stop here as well. Other users have suggested lapras as a viable counter to houndoom as well. There are problably more counters to the list as well, but these pokemon counter both sets and are the ones mostlikely used.

    Not only can houndoom be walled, it has a weakness to stealth rocks, and coupled with houndoom's mass weakness to priority attacks like mach punch from gurdurr and aqua jet from samurott, it has a tough time being able to sweep teams that ARE PREPARED FOR IT!!!!!! Houndoom's defenses, 75/50/80, do not do it any favors either when being revenge killed by scarf fighting types, or scarfers able to take a sucker punch from houndoom, like rotom-s

    Instead of people bitching about houndoom being powerful, try to prepare for it more by using underused pokes in that tier. Just because a pokemon isn't used that much doesn't mean it isn't good. Houndoom is good yes, but if your team isn't prepared to fight houndoom, then your team isn't going to be successful in the nu meta, no matter if you run stall or balanced or hyper offense. This can be said about sawk, musharna, samurott, and more.

    I do not think houndoom is broken and people need to search for counters OUTSIDE THE LIST OF NU TIER POKEMON http://wiki.pokemon-online.eu/wiki/5th_Gen_Tier_List. I am sorry if it seems like I am raging at people that only use standard pokemon for nu, but I see a lot of teams using the top usage pokemon that lose to houndoom. People, there are counters and checks.
     
  12. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    I would love to use less used pokemon in NU but that is impossible right now because a core like Sawk + Houndoom/Skuntank/Drapion + Mesprit/Musharna/Gardevoir beats everything below 4% usage :\
    I understand your argument that you need to be prepared for common threats, but it can get to a point that a certain pokemon is too strong for the rest of the tier. Genesect could be checked in OU by Heatran, Porygon2 and Chandelure, but it was just too powerful for the rest of the tier. That's why it got banned. If people have to use unviable pokemon like Thick Fat Hariyama and Mantine just to counter a threat then imo that threat is overpowered. Now Emboar, Gurdurr, Alomomola and Regirock are all very viable in NU, but three of them lack recovery (outside of Drain Punch on Gurdurr/Regirock) and are pretty easy to wear down. Specially defensive Alomomola is a solid counter, but gets easily 2HKO'd by Sawk and is setup fodder for Musharna.

    For people thinking that I'm using the logic that some people used in the Landorus-I suspect discussion, it's important to realize that Landorus + Tyranitar is only used by a select group of teams (sand teams) and that they are MUCH easier to deal with with proper teambuilding (you have plenty of options in rain, sun, sand and weatherless teams respectively, hell even Abomasnow can single handedly beat this core). Sawk + Houndoom/Skuntank has completely centralized the metagame of NU, the proof is in the usage statistics and by finding some battles above 1200 points on the ladder. There are other big threats that people utilize like Zangoose and Klinklang, but the majority of teams are based around the Psychic/Fighting/Dark core. Just throwing that out there.
     
  13. meeps

    meeps Well-Known Member

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    so everything below 4% usage in tier is absolute shit and shouldn't be used. good to know

    how are hariyama and mantine unviable. there is a difference between not being used and unviable, please learn. hariyama makes an excellent physical attacker and and excellent bulky phaser, checking a healthy amount of the tier's special threats. mantine is another excellent special wall in the tier, checking top threats such as samurott, seismitoad, ludicolo, charizard, list goes on. hell, it even makes a nice special attacker with spces or rain dance allowing to damage much of the tier unresisted or not specially defensive pokes.

    i've participated and spectated multiple nu battles in pocl in which this improvised mighty unstoppable psychic/fighting/dark core was used not used by either player. the ladder isn't the only means of determining the state of the tier. sure these pokes were used, but not in the combination in which you constantly seem to worship. just trying to make the point it's not the only way to win in nu and many other team combinations can still be used to handle it.

    just one last point, i really need to stress you shouldn't be posting when your knowledge of the tier isn't that great, i mean the second post even publicly stated (by a tier leader) to stop posting when you really don't have a great grasp on the tier
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 14, 2013
  14. Daybreak

    Daybreak can't touch this

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    Let me just point out that the pokemon i put in damage calculations are very vialble. Hariyama is able to make a very good defensive core with musharna as it preforms a very viable resttalk set and heal bell from musharna. along with that hariyama's attack stat is very very high as well, and can also fake out and bullet punch to get very good priority damage into the opponent. Mantine is a very good pokemon in nu as with the drop of ludicolo and gastrodon in nu, mantine is a very solid counter to rain teams. Ludicolo, seismitoed, golduck, floatzel, (know i am missing a poke in there somewhere) are all countered by manitine.

    I understand people think these pokemon are not viable, but each pokemon has it's niche in the metagame. Also with your second point, if Sawk + Houndoom/Skuntank have completely centralized the metagame of NU and houndoom should be banned for that reason, then couldn't you say that we should ban weather in ou? Politoed and Keldeo have been overcentralizing the metagame with stab powerful water attacks, Tyranitar and Landorus have overcentralized the metagame, Ninetails and Venusaur have overcentralized the metagame, and abomasnow and kyurem to a lesser extent. There are combinations that people use in every tier that use major powerhouse pokemon. These pokemon have stayed in the respective tiers though cause people counter the cores. In nu it is the same logic.
     
  15. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    Liarliarpantsonfire
    First of all, that's actually called an ad hominem which weakens your argument. I have more than enough knowledge and experience in any tier too, but thanks for insulting me I guess. We really don't have to go there, it's just a discussion.

    Hariyama is not viable because as you says its supposed to wall special threats, but the number one special threat in NU happens to be Psychic. Think of Mesprit and Musharna. The only viable set is Guts, and even then you're not getting past Mushy. Samurott, one of the most common special attackers 2HKO's it:

    252 SpA Life Orb Samurott Hydro Pump vs. 12 HP / 252+ SpD Hariyama: 220-261 (50.92 - 60.41%) -- 88.28% chance to 2HKO (standard Smogon spread)

    Mantine has a SR weakness which seriously hurts its effectiveness to the point that Alomomola outclasses it completely aside from the matchup versus Ludicolo. Rest-Talk is a very unreliable form of recovery too. Also, aside from walling the threats you mentioned it doesn't accomplish much else, unless it uses Rain Dance, but then Ludicolo totally outclasses it.

    I never said that the core is impossible to break either. It's just so difficult to the point that you can't use creative sets anymore and be succesful against it (assuming you're facing a player of equal skill ofcourse). Sawk and Houndoom are just too powerful for NU, and there's definitely people that agree with this.
     
  16. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I'm just disappointed at the fact that people are finding it "impossible" to use pokemon outside of Houndoom+Sawk+psychic type. More things exist that can easily find a home on teams without any of the former mentioned, and Houndoom doesn't really restrict anything like any of the pro-ban arguments are saying. Also...

    252 SpAtk Life Orb Houndoom Fire Blast vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Thick Fat Hariyama: 40.09% - 47.32%

    Hariyama was never mentioned as a special wall, only a specially bulky phazer at most and at best an amazing check to many special attackers in the tier thanks to hitting hard and being bulky. Resttalk sets aren't only used by walls, and to be honest if you knew the tier that well you would know this, which is kind of what meeps was getting at. If you see that as ad hominem when he wasn't even specifically pointing anyone out, then you're probably among that group anyway for taking offense.

    Anyway, that Samurott calc is completely pointless, and it's quite a good pokemon outside of Houndoom. Again, makes me sad people only think of Sawk and Emboar as the only usable fighting types left. I mean, Mantine isn't all that great but pretty much everything else mentioned so far are great lesser used pokemon perfectly capable of being team players even with Sawk and all the big bad psychics around.

    I know this is barely about Houndoom, but this is turning more into a problem concerning the mentality of people nowadays across pretty much every tier.
     
  17. Um Hello?

    Um Hello? Member

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    I posted already on this thread, but there've been a bunch of other replies since then.

    Some of the posts aimed at others in this thread confuse me. But oh well.

    As we're on the subject of Hariyama as a counter, and Liarliar said that it was unviable and meeps disregarded this statement, it IS partially true. The fact is, if you're going to use a special wall, there are a lot of improvements on thick fat Hariyama, that all either lose to, or are put under a lot of pressure from Houndoom. -This also goes for most Physical Walls.
    If to beat Houndoom you have to pick a team member that is outclassed by multiple other Pokemon in most ways, and almost solely to beat Houndoom how is that not broken?

    In terms of things that threaten Houndoom: Not things that can always switch in, there are of course a plethora of Pokemon to pick from.

    Just going from the usage lists and the more common Pokemon;

    -Scarf Sawk #1 can't switch in
    -Piloswine #13 can sometimes switch in, depends on move and Pilo's EV spread
    -Primeape #15 can't switch in
    -Torkoal #18 Meh, it doesn't like dark pulses and needs earth power to do anything which isn't super common.
    -Wartortle #23 Needs to be at good HP to live multiple HP Grasses
    -Ludicolo #26 If defensive does ok, but otherwise risky.
    -Licklicky #32 Can be 2HKO'd by Fire Blast if rocks are up.
    -Emboar #40 Wins, but because of the way the more common Emboar sets are, (banded/scarf with Flare Blitz for recoil can be worn down by SR and if the Houndoom user is good can be beaten.)
    -Lapras #42 As previously mentioned in this thread Lapras does ok but see those posts for real analysis.
    -Altaria #54 Depending on the set and if SR are up, but Altaria can't -really- do much back.
    -Mantine #56, probably the best answer to special Houndoom, but against Physical it struggles.
    -Camerupt #60 Does OK.



    There are a few other viable options further down in the usage list, but, quite frankly the usage is the way it is for the reason that the better pokemon are at the top.
    This is not to say every pokemon below #60 is bad, but in most scenarios there are better options.

    The one redeeming feature of Houndoom is that it is SR weak, and the most common sets are Life Orb, meaning that after 2 switch in's it only has 5 or 6 hits left, severely limiting the damage it can do to a team, meaning that with accurate play it can be dealt with relatively simply.




    I still believe that Houndoom is broken

    After re-reading I noticed I was a little bit hypocritical at the start of the main paragraph but oh well, I was referring to those posts as somewhere to start.
     
  18. meeps

    meeps Well-Known Member

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    attack i made was unnecessary, i wont go any further on that

    this is a really bad argument. name a pure-fighting type that gets past the bulky psychic-types in nu by itself. you cant. by this logic, sawk one of the biggest threats in the tier is 'unviable'. the same goes are gurdurr, which has a very similar niche to hariyama; that being a bulky attacker is 'unviable'. none of the aforementioned fighting-types will handle the bulky psychics in the tier one-on-one, plain and simple.

    also, for the damage calc with samurott, you really shouldnt be using an ru smogon spread for hariyama, when po nu and smogon ru are completely different metagames. also, any competent player would not bring in hariyama out vs samurott. a specially defensive phazer hariyama would be used to come in on the threats it checks, such as houndoom; not what it cant check, just like any other wall.

    elaborate on 'creative'. i've used many teams utilizing uncovential and lesser used threats on the ladder and in pocl matches with great success. and with some of this threats i've been able to effectively break the psychic/fighting/dark core.

    anyways, hariyama talk should stop, it's not a discussion on whether hariyama is viable or not, it's if houndoom is broken or not

    you are missing quite a few pokes from this list

    also

    -Licklicky #32 Can be 2HKO'd by Fire Blast if rocks are up.

    factor in protect and lickilicky will never be 2hko'd after rocks.

    seismitoad switches in and checks houndoom safely but has to watch for hp grass

    spdef alomomola is a hard counter to special and physical houndoom

    support regirock laughs as all attackers except hp grass, which also cant even 2hko

    support probopass fails to get 2hko'd by fire blast, does fair amount with earth power

    spdef stunfisk also takes at least 2 fire blast and can ohko after rocks + lo damage on houndoom

    list pretty much goes on and on. point is a poke with that many checks is hard to be classified as broken
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2013
  19. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Meeps is right, there are far too many Checks,Counters and easy ways to revenge kill Houndoom for it to be considered anywhere near broken.

    Samurott, Emboar + Hariyama (Thick Fat) are common offensive threats that can switch in relatively safely and threaten out.

    Sp Def Alo, Sp Def Wartortle, Lickilicky, Sp Def Regirock, Sp Def Lapras, Sp Def Mandibuzz, Sp Def Probopass, Sp Def Bastiodon, Sp Def Stunfisk + Sp Def Cradily can all switch in on Physical or Special Doom sets with ease, and threaten out or win 1 on 1.

    Sp Def Camerupt, Sp Def Altaria + Mantine can all easily take on the Special set, but not the physical one.

    Scarf Ape, Scarf Sawk, Samurott, Emboar, Hariyama, Gurdurr, Zangoose, Piloswine, Swellow, Kangaskhan, Tauros, Scarf Pinsir, Floatzel, Bouffalant, Altaria, Carracosta, Combusken + Simipour can all revenge kill it, as long as they're not severely weakened in which case a few will die to Sucker Punch. In fact those are only pokemon that can revenge kill it from full, if we take into consideration SR + LO recoil then many other Scarfed Special Attackers will be able to revenge kill it too.

    A pokemon with ^ that many Checks, Counters + revenge killers within the top 100 used, surely cannot be broken.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2013
  20. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Just spent a while reading this and, while I don't have an essay to write, I'ma simply say that I'm more or less in agreement with Afro. Sure, Houndoom's a powerful, extremely potent threat in the tier, and very few pokemon can switch into it without at least being somewhat threatened (due to its three main sets; physically based, specially based and Nasty Plot, all having fairly different checks and counters).

    However, while a full counter to Houndoom is extremely difficult to find, there are simply too many soft counters (that can take Houndoom on one on one with ease, but there are situations where they'll lose, such as weakened Gurdurr coming in on a Fire Blast or something), and checks in the tier for Houndoom to be broken.

    Hell, give Slowpoke a try. At actually rapes physically based Houndoom by evading Sucker Punches, taking little from Pursuit, having reliable recovery and even a decently powerful Scald to hit Houndoom hard with if it needs to. As a bonus, it also beats Sawk with sheer ease.

    Houndoom's typing also prevents it from lasting long. Four very prominent weaknesses (Rock, Ground, Water, Fighting) and its severe frailty means that it'll be lucky to last more than a few turns. Seriously, assuming Houndoom switches into SR WITHOUT taking a hit, and uses a Life Orb boosted attack, it literally dies on its third turn.

    ...OK, so this turned out longer than I expected it to. xD

    Long story short, Houndoom =/= overpowered. Much as I'd love to see it rise a few tiers, due to it being one of my all time favourite pokemon, it simply isn't gonna (short of a usage spike in UU, which is totally possible)
     
  21. Trakyan

    Trakyan Member

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    Ok, to start off with houndoom doesnt really struggle against walls, it can 2HKO the likes of lapras with LO fire blasts and the 'common priority moves' is rubbish, gurdurr isnt that common, maybe slightly more so due to the money problems challenge and doesnt want to switch in directly, regardless of its an option. Same goes for sammurot who i find doesnt run AJ on it's LO sets that often, the most i've seen at the moment has been surf or hydropump/ice beam/hp grass or whatever/sub or taunt or megahorn.

    So you're priority counters pretty much need to switch in after a KO, great, that means you sack something every time houndoom steps into the ring. Anyways, 'common' priority is suckerpunch, guess who resists that? Also, sammurot cant always revenge with AJ as houndoom runs suckerpunch very often. Also, NP houndoom OHKOs pretty much everything save for a select few pokemon who either cant do much back or arent very viable in the metagame. It decimates stall and slow teams in general after a boost, and the regular LO set can do the same as it scores 2HKOs on the switch or just a KO if they decide to fodder, then switches out and comes back later to wreak more havock.

    The only pokemon that 'counters' houndoom per say is munchlax, but it quite frankly isnt that viable with sawk running wild in the tier and the likes of missdrevous also hard counter it.

    I think it would add just a little more versatility to the tier to ban it, making stall at least viable.

    Im all for banning it now, either this or sawk because the metagame is starting to suck
     
  22. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    First off, Houndoom struggles against common walls (which Larpas isn't) such as Alomomola, specifically SDef Alomomola, Lickylicky / Audino, Regirock, Mantine, and Munchlax. Secondly, Gurdurr is a decently common pokemon. Regardless of that, it's a very good pokemon in NU and STAB Mach Punch is nothing to laugh about. Also, Samurott runs Aqua Jet on all SD sets and about half of the Special sets, so...that's two top-tier pokemon with SE STAB Priority moves vs a frail sweeper, in Houndoom.


    Samurott is never OHKOd by Houndoom, nor is Gurdurr (unless it is +2, meaning we've already switched-in and are ready to OHKO with priority!) NP Houndoom isn't as good in practice as it is on paper as it rarely ever pulls off a sweep since every team has a revenger to it and most well-built teams have a wall / imediate switch-in. I'm blaming the constant Sawk / Houndoom weakness on people being plain to lazy to adjust to the new metagame, not anything broken. Also, Stall commnly runs Mantine / Alomomola, which both check / counter Houndoom - so it is still viable, regardless of Houndoom being NU!

    Right, one common pokemon beats Munchlax - it isn't viable. So, by that logic, Sawk isn't that viable with Musharna running wild in the tier and Missy also counters Sawk - can't use it! Basically, that's invalid because everything has a counter / check or two..
     
  23. meeps

    meeps Well-Known Member

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    going to add on more to what finch had to say

    this argument is just wrong in so many ways. to start with, you're naming one wall, which isnt even commonly used, just to name some of the walls more common than lapras that check houndoom: alomomola, lickilicky, regirock, mantine, etc. and there is a whole lot more which are used less than lapras. saying gurdurr 'isn't that common' is just absolutely terrible. one of the best bulky attackers in the tier, which consistently gets about ~10% ranked usage and was worth 20 coins in the money challenge. not sure how you call gurdurr uncommon. also aqua jet is the most common move samurott runs throughout all its sets, it's rather important to have decent knowledge of what is used and what is not used much when posting

    you also have to put this in fact; decent teams will likely have at least one or two others pokes to check houndoom. factor in sr damage, damage took from the check, and LO damage, sometimes priority attackers won't even need to come in to revenge houndoom. it's really important to note how much residual damage houndoom takes, it is weak to sr and lo will also wear it down fairly quickly. also as its been mentioned before, houndoom may resist sucker punch, but its physical defense is absolutely terrible, and two sucker punch from a skuntank will take houndoom down. anyways, regarding your point on np houndoom destroying stall teams, you act like stall teams arent built to fathom houndoom. as mentioned before, there are plently of checks to houndoom that can be used on stall teams, and can successfully check np houndoom. another point is houndoom won't switch in and get a nasty plot boost right off the bat. houndoom will likely take damage, and hell, it may not even get up a nasty plot boost sometimes

    a poke that checks much of the tier's special attackers including houndoom is not viable. good to know

    i have multiple stall teams that work excellent in the current meta. just to note that stall teams arent just putting the biggest defensive threats together in one team; its using defensive threats to succesfully check the hardest hitters in the tier
     
  24. MrLumber

    MrLumber Member

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    Personally it feels like the only reason this is being suspected is because it compliments Sawk so damn well. Banded sawk + pursuit trapper IS the meta, and the amount of pressure that creates on teambuilding is toxic. HOWEVER I don't think Houndoom is broken either. While its pretty easy to call a glass cannon (esp considering dark/fire is virtually unresisted js), Houndoom is probably one of the most skill intensive pokemon in the entire game, which on top of its bevy of actual counters, make it balanced. Idk if Sawk has been suspected yet or not, but that really should have happened before this, the meta would be in completely different shape and actually reflect Doom's stand alone strength (not to say synergy isn't unimportant or anything obv). Sadly I don't think I can add a lot outside of that considering so much has been said already.

    I'm surprised people don't run sub/np more often, but hey that's just my own personal set. Weird note, but the addition of Houndoom means that HP Ground is THE definitive HP of NU (what, every tier has one).

    Lastly @ Weavile, tons of shit can switch into Heracross with complete impunity. >.


    Finch Edit: Sawk was just suspected. Lrn2Lurk
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 22, 2013
  25. WizzleKidd

    WizzleKidd Wizzlin' PO since Feb '11

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    First let me just say that Houndoom shouldn't even be in NU to begin with LOL. It's just unfortunate that it constantly floats between UU and LU. Both tiers there he is like 3.6% which is a shame. Moving on..

    Problem is even though Houndoom is an awesome poke, he still fits absolutely fine in NU. This is because we have now adjusted to it being in the tier. Well, if one is bothered to face a threat of course. (Many don't like doing that anymore)
    The combination of it's garbage defensive typing, poor defense stats, life orb damage (if you want to actually hit hard), stealth rocks, aqua jet, mach punch, amount of scarfers and fighting moves in NU keep it in absolute check. You cannot argue this!

    The bulkymons that are available in NU right now also put a stop to Houndoom. The amount of checks/blocks/counters there are right now to Houndoom is not even funny.... Unless it has nasty plot LO, houndoom is NOT going to be sweeping anytime soon. But with 95 speed.... ehhh.... it's still nice for NU..... but there's many pokes who can still outspeed..

    So keep it. Unless PO finally decide to start using him again in LU/UU and let Houndoom move up a tier naturally instead of out-right banning it because it has good fire-power (tee-hee)
     
  26. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    I'll make my post short and concise. Simply put, from stall teams with Alomomomomomomomomomomomola and Roselia/Vileplume to offensive teams with Gurdurr, Samurott, Scarfed Primeape, and Sawk, I simply don't find Houndoom to be that much of an issue. Keep it.

    Finch Edit: Blue is ok, just not red!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 23, 2013
  27. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Hi, good discussion so far.
    Please remember to look at the first post which states to follow guidelines, post intelligently, etc.
    This'll be closing in 5 days to a week, so wrap up discussion
     
  28. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    May as well wrap it up now tbh, also may i ask why this suspect discussion was started in the first place?

    Finch edit: has to be up for at least two weeks
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 23, 2013
  29. Um Hello?

    Um Hello? Member

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    Because Sawk was deemed not broken, and most of the comments in that discussion did agree that the current cure of Sawk/Psychic/Dark type (mostly Houndoom) is overpowered, overcentralising and something needs doing about that. Obviously the psychic types aren't broken, so if Sawk isn't broken either, as concluded by that thread, anyway, the next place to go was the Dark type - Houndoom
     
  30. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    Houndoom is rather fast and powerful for NU. Unlike Emboar, it has speed - one major factor in its disposal. You need Extremespeed or Mach Punch to generally take it out (or a Scarf user that wins against it - aka no Gardevoir)
     
  31. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    Out of the pair, I'd have to say the most broken is sawk (not saying that is too good for NU) this is quite the tricky situation, it's not that any of them are inherently broken by themselves, it's that when put together they form an incredible offensive core that is really centralising the metagame. Complex bans are probably out of the question as well so this is just really a weird spot to be in. It's pretty pointless to ban a poke just before a new game is released anyways :l

    Houndoom has plenty of checks and counters as do sawk, but houndooms counters are killed by sawk and sawks counters are trapped by houndoom, I can't think of an answer but maybe someone else can, but I'll still stand by houndoom being NOT BROKEN
     
  32. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Ok, I have seen enough now.

    Explain how this Fighting + Dark (+ possible Psychic) core is 'overcentralising' or plain broken!!?

    You have to predict nearly perfectly to win.

    Let me draw up a pretty standard situation:

    You have a Sawk, opponent has a Musharna / Misdreavus on their team, but something out that loses to Sawk.
    You can: A) predict their switch to Mush/Missy and goto Trap Houndoom, or B) stay in and attack.
    They can: A) predict you to switch out in fear of a counter and stay in / goto a neutral Pokemon, or B) switch out to Missy / Mushy to counter Sawk.

    It is purely a 50 / 50. Is a guessing game, not a skilled prediction game. Therefore, you cannot use this in your argument since it entitles that you're always going to outpedict your opponent.

    Houndoom has enough checks / counters (so does Sawk) to leave people facing it in decent positions against it.

    Neither Pokemon is broken and it takes stellar play for the conjunction to straight ruin the metagame as multiple users stated --- even if you out predict, you still are worn down quickly, revenged usually effortlessly, and only net 1-2 kills.

    Sorry if this post was basically quality controlling the thread - felt it needed to be done. Not sure if it was impulsive to post - 3am in Hawaii and not thinking straight.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2013
  33. Luck>Skill

    Luck>Skill Well-Known Member

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    how is a 50/50 a skilled prediction game

    it's a coinflip lol

    but srsly in what universe is houndoom op?

    I haven't played much NU recently but the only thing doom has done is making the meta better by drastically reducing psychic type's power

    It hits hard, sure, but it's in a average speed tier, it's so horribly frail and his typing defensively is so bad that it dies really easily, it can't switch in into ANYTHING, not even defensive pokes (most of them would 2HKO it at worst), which means that successful houndoom usage requires either slow volturn or perfect switchbacks / double switches, or sacrifices

    none of these is even remotely close to reliable, so getting in houndoom is relatively hard already

    then there's the problem of being not-so-fast, and some of the slower threats can deal with it with aqua jet (samurott mostly) or mach punch

    and seriously people, at +2 it OHKOs most stuff? really? I could not even imagine that something with over than 600 special attack and such coverage could OHKO the whole of NU, thank you for telling me, next we'll ban slaking because it OHKOs everything, or mixed Rampardos because it O/2HKOs everything

    the fact that most sweepers at +2 are deadly is a given fact, the real problem here is considering how easily said pokes get a +2 boost, and Houndoom requires your oppoonent to switch to actually boost up, and by the nature of competitive pokemon, the switch in can generally deal with it
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2013
  34. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    yeah i have to say, forcing a 50-50 in a game does not a competitive pokemon make. if anything it forces an equaliser between players where players are not necessarily equal.

    I'm still not sure where I stand on Houndoom honestly and the thread will probably be over before I make up my mind on it.
     
  35. Um Hello?

    Um Hello? Member

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    [Offtopic]It doesn't OHKO everything :( I know it was an example but I'm nitpicking.[/Offtopic]




    @Finch:


    Houndoom does not need Pursuit to form a strong core with Sawk which removes the prediction part, as even to the bulkier psychic types, such as Musharna Banded CC is doing about 35%, enough to put pressure on it with light support, Houndoom is an example as it hits Sawks Checks/Counters on the opposite side of the damage spectrum - assuming special set.

    Meaning a Physically bulky Pokemon that can deal with Sawk is not going to be able to deal with Houndoom. This alone causes switches, and with NU being a tier stuffed full of NFE Pokemon this can mean steadily losing hp with little to no recovery due to hazards.

    Whilst this seems obvious you apparently haven't realised it, just through playing as obviously as possible with the current "WhoreCore" you put a huge amount of pressure on the opponents team. Meaning that unless the opponent is a good player with a good team they're generally going to lose.

    I made a team using the current core to demonstrate how broken it is, I got to 1450 points with less than 5 losses on an alt. It wasn't a well built team with a lot of thought put into it. It was literally Sawk/Houndoom/Sub CM Mesperit/Piloswine for rocks/Scarf Primeape/Scarf Rotom-S for volt-turning into Sawk or Houndoom most of the time to threaten out, or Mesperit to set-up and sweep.

    This team took no skill whatsoever and most of the few losses were from hax so I retired the team and the alt, forfeiting down to under 1300 to clear the top of the ladder for others.

    ::I would like to think I'm better than the average NU player so I'm not saying anyone can go and get 1400+ points with ease, but the points remains, the current Core results in very little skill to smash through a lot of teams, and whilst hax is not a reason to ban a Pokemon, with hax the core can smash through some of the best replies to it.

    No.

    You can B) stay in and attack A) Something is likely going to die. B) switch out to their answer, you hard switch to Houndoom after your attack that likely doesn't do much damage. The absolute best a standard Missy can do back is Shadow Ball. Musharna needs to have HP Ground and predict correctly, and after a CC + SR + Lefties Mushy is down to about 60% health, assuming no prior damage.




    This post is a bit blunt. But oh well.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2013
  36. meeps

    meeps Well-Known Member

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    too lazy to quote stuff

    34% max to sawk with cc, musharna still checks sawk easily nonetheless

    ladder success is a terrible argument in determining if something is broken or not

    also i like how no one pro-ban responds to luck's points and my points which are actually good. i mean the above post clearly acknowledges luck's post with the sarcastic comment on slaking, yet neglects to respond to his other points. goes to show it's far from broken

    also finch/other tier leaders p sure you can end suspect early if poke is deemed not broken (which finch states in one of his posts)
     
  37. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Pretty sure it is 2 weeks minimum

    @Luck/Aurist, I meant to say that it made it a 50/50 - not skilled prediction, got everything mixed up word-wise that sentence
    (I said it was 3AM!)

    @um hello - First off, I am 11-1 with an NEU team on the NU ladder - it means nothing. Try to avoid having the ladder as the main part of your argument. Instead, resort to facts, reasoning, etc.

    You still fail to prove how Houndoom is broken and your assuming that you have an edge on the opponent (once again, bringing things back to prediction.)

    I understand what you're getting at, to an extent, but you fail to have any clear-cut evidence bar your success in the ladder, how you're an above average NU player, and how this core pressures the meta (it can, if played well. However, this still doesn't answer some of the points brought up by non-ban arguers.)
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2013
  38. Um Hello?

    Um Hello? Member

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    Hello? Because I didn't respond to a point in an already large post that means a Pokemon isn't broken? OK. If my arguments are bad what does that make yours?
    Sidenote: It wasn't sarcasm in the first place.


    But OK, if you want me to reply to prove that something is broken. --- I hope you realise how abusrd that is and sounds.



    I am NOT assuming I have an edge on the opponent, I am assuming, and fairly so that Sawk forces switches, in the scenario most relevant to Houndoom it forces a switch to something that can either wall it completely (Basically nothing other than Musharna - which is why you mentioned it.) or something that can take a couple of hits, like Misdreavus.

    I am also assuming, again, fairly that the large percentage of Misdreavus sets really cannot hurt Houndoom, and whilst Musharna could maybe do something back to Houndoom (Twave/HP Ground/Signal Beam) it is not going to stay in unless it is going to die to Pursuit anyway.

    My point of referring to the ladder was not to show off in any way. The point was I made a team with very little thought behind it, just picking the current core, and I stated in the post, that prediction really is not required. You can play as obviously as possible and do well because the core is that overpowered.

    ∴ To conclude the above paragraph,

    2 minute team, hardly predicting and just clicking the hardest hitting moves can beat most of the ladder.




    I was not saying that Musharna does not check Sawk, I was saying that taking the ~40% from SR + CC + Lefties repeatably can put Musharna under a lot of pressure that can be incredibly difficult to alleviate.


    Houndoom is in an above average speed tier for NU first of all. Just because a Pokemon is frail doesn't make it not broken. Or Deoxys-S would be OU, (for example)

    There are a few Pokemon it can switch in on relatively safely, not fearing much beyond gimicky sets.

    Musharna, Misdreavus, Tangela (if something is already asleep), Mesperit (if a support set, a choiced set might be risky) Skuntank, Haunter (Lacking HP Ground), Torkoal (Lacking earth power - very rare), Exeggutor (Sleeping again) But something like specs leaf storm will hurt [it might kill but i'm lazy to calc])),
    Vileplume ( doesn't like sludge bomb or SP), Weezing (potential for flash fire boost), Roselia.


    If you would notice, a number of these Pokemon are those that Houndoom is intended for, to eliminate for another team member [Sawk] to really dent teams.

    Furthermore, when I think of Houndoom I think of this set:

    Houndoom (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Hasty Nature (+Spd, -Def)
    - Hidden Power [Grass]
    - Dark Pulse
    - Sucker Punch
    - Fire Blast

    Not the pursuit trapping set. The thing about revenging this is, if the opposing Pokemon is sufficiently weakened it will die to Sucker Punch, this fact cuts out a reasonable chunk of the Pokemon that can easily revenge Houndoom, at least if sufficient prior damage is on that Pokemon.
    Which really isn't hard to do considering hazards.




    I've reread this after writing the first part of this post, and I'm quite confused about this actually.

    Do you mean a team matchup edge? This happens a lot in NU, often you'll come up against teams with at least 1 unviable member that could be improved on, either set wise or just outclassed by something else. This alone does not make Houndoom broken obviously but I'm confused about your point.

    Maybe it's a player matchup edge? That I can outpredict the opponent?

    At no point did he say that. If you're going to put words in someones mouth just stop trying to argue.

    The point of his post was to say the truth, there really is not a lot of room for experimentation in NU currently. Obviously there is some depending on the Pokemon, but for the majority of cases the Pokemon with usage <4% they aren't as good as Pokemon with higher usage.
    -Again this is not true for every case, as there are some gems in the mires of NU, but they are rare.




    If there are any other points you want me to discuss then tell me, I don't feel like searching through posts for them.



    From the moment this thread has been posted I have assumed that the main reason that Houndoom is being suspected is because the combination of Sawk/Houndoom is so strong.

    I'm just going to reiterate the point again, they are used together because they both remove each others checks.




    Having said this I'm starting to feel like I'm posting a bit too much on this thread lol.
     
  39. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Honestly, if a pokemon isn't broken by itself, and it has to be run beside something like Sawk to even be considered a suspect, then it shouldn't have a thread at all. I get this was to appease everyone's complaints about Sawk(which is also mainly faulty reasoning, although Afro brought up good arguing points), but everyone basically either agrees with or outright stated the thought that Houndoom isn't broken on its own. A pure attacking set gets worn down far too easily, trapping sets are excellent at trapping and pretty much nothing else, and special sets fall into the trap of getting beaten by the likes of Lickilicky, Hariyama and Sp Def Alomomola.

    There's always going to be very strong combinations of pokemon in every tier. Houndoom+Sawk just happens to be that and nothing more.

    Also the whole "no room for experimentation right now" is utter bullshit, the Money Challenge proves that you can build perfectly functioning teams without using the top 20 used pokemon. Like nearly everyone who wants to ban Sawk or Houndoom seems to insist on using.
     
  40. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    After discussing Houndoom with Cased and Incon, the three of us all agree that Houndoom isn't broken in the Wifi NU tier.

    Furthermore, it will stay Wifi NU for the remainder of the generation, unless it spikes in usage in LU or
    UU.

    Thanks to everyone who posted.
     
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