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[BW2] LU Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by Xdevo, Aug 25, 2013.

  1. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    Since a couple of the other subforums have them, I think LU should take a go at it too.

    Discuss where you think certain Pokemon should be ranked, and give a short explanation as to why. Don't simply state that a Pokemon should be in a tier without giving a reason why. Posts like "I think Jynx should be A-" are not acceptable.

    The starting list will be edited with the changes when people give them, but until then it is only based on a few opinions.

     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2013
  2. Omfuga216

    Omfuga216 Banned

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    Zoroark is simply not that useful in RU. No way it should be A- in my opinion. Scyther deserves some praise as a fantastic scarfer in the LU meta-- although it requires a lot of support, it's still the best scarfer if you can keep rocks off the field in the tier easily. Although, obviously rocks are hard to keep off the field to get Scyther in at all times. Although, I still think it should be a B. Venomoth is a HUGE threat in the LU metagame, it has access to sleep-sweeping and with tinted lens, nothing can stand up to the bug buzz/hp rock coverage. It also has really nice speed, and tinted lens STAB is nothing to mess around with. I also think Durant is a little too high and Escavalier too low. Durant is powerful, but x-scissor is bad bug STAB, and even with the hustle, it can't get the massive attack power to break a lot of walls. Escavalier's banded megahorn will do a clean 10% more than durant's banded x-scissor, along with escavalier's fantastic bulk and ability to pursuit trap. Magmortar has a lot of power to be reckoned with, but I see how it could be outclassed by moltres a lot. I think it should be raised to at least a B, though.

    Oh also, I think kabutops should be an A rather than A+, as hitmonchan can spin just as efficiently, and it doesn't do much fantastically that other spinners can't.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2013
  3. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Zoroark being anywhere in A is probably not the place for it. Yes, it does hit moderately hard and is pretty fast, but it's a high risk low reward pokemon. It doesn't have the movepool to provide immediate power, and once the illusion is figured out(which is very easy to do), it just turns into a one-shot sweeper. I think B+ would be where most people would want it if not A rank, but I'd plop it firmly in B.

    Also Clefable could probably go to A- or maybe even A. It's excellent in the sense that it blocks so many defensive threats with Magic Guard, while also being able to wall the special threats in the tier to hell and back. Having access to Heal Bell is immensely useful as well, being able to both absorb any status besides Sleep and then proceed to clear any from its teammates.

    Pains me to see Steelix in C, but I thought about that for about 5 minutes and found no argument to move it up. Just not as good as it has been in the past.

    Spiritomb to somewhere in B imo. Yes, it is an amazing trapper. That's where the things that stand out about it end. CM sets are too slow to get going, and a straight walling set is sub-par. The Banded set would be awesome if it didn't require so much prediction from the user's standpoint.

    Otherwise I've no other changes that would be worth making right this moment, might think of some later.
     
  4. Dasdardly

    Dasdardly Uknown Bird

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    :c

    I think Jynx deserves a solid B, as a simple life orb 3 attacks + lovely kiss can really dismantle a team with a little help. She has her flaws, for sure. Nonexistent physical bulk means that she's very weak to the, like, three priority moves in the tier and at times she can find it hard to switch in against faster teams. All in all, sounds like a B to me.
     
  5. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    Agreed re Zoroark, it's a B at VERY best, like pnerd said it's just a high risk low reward pokemon, not worth having on a majority of teams, I'd personally put it at mid C

    Slowking belongs down in A+ imo, it's no longer the pokemon that slots perfectly into every team. It's a good and versatile pokemon and not an S one any more.
    EDIT: seeing what pnerd said changed my mind, that is very right about slowking.

    Rotom up to A or A-, it's still a top tier threat and one of the best spinblockers (formerly the best imo but Missy might have taken that). Specs, scarf and utility sets are all really strong in LU.

    Spiritomb belongs down in B. It's just not that good. It has a few sets, most of which are OK and beat some common mons while losing to others.

    Disagree at pnerd's thing of Clefable in A. It's more of an annoyance than a threat to a team. There's too many easy ways to deal with it. And many more teams would rather run Lanturn as a wall/cleric.

    Steelix up to B or B-. Despite its weaknesses it slots magically into a lot of teams, patching a team's weaknesses up. It's not set up bait either, as it hits decently hard and has phazing.

    Cryogonal down to C+ or C. It's a disappointing pokemon that is hard to fit in a team, with poor offenses and really glaring weaknesses.

    Typhlosion up to B or B-. It's predictable but a HUGE threat to a lot of teams.

    Galvantula up to B+. Its frailty and SR weakness is more than offset by its ability to easily tear chunks out of any LU team with its beautiful STABs that other LU pokemon would kill for and good coverage. I'd personally have it in A- but B+ is fine.

    Bisharp down to C+ or B-. Everything in the meta switches in on its predictable STABs and bad coverage, and its support capabilities arent great either.

    Low usage LU pokes:

    Emboar (B-, good pokemon that suffers a lot in the current meta), Jynx (B, extremely dangerous to set and good ways to patch up its weaknesses), Alomomola (B-, set up bait but v strong physical wall), Houndoom (C, risky trapper), Bouffalant (B+, slots into meta perfectly, sets up easily with great bulk), Gastrodon (C, just doesn't really find use in LU meta), Absol (B-, decent trapper with surprising movepool), Ferroseed (B, slots excellently as a wall/supporter, needs reasonable support to function), Rhydon (B-, good wall with strong attack, predictable/easy beat), Roselia (B, tspikes fit great in LU and one of few good users), Drapion (B, SD/taunt or sub sets work great in LU meta, bulky sets are ok, tspikes good), Mesprit (C, outclassed strongly by all other psychics for everything), Ludicolo (B, dangerous when set up), Misdreavus (C+, sorta outclassed now we have Mismagius but evio gives it a niche), Piloswine (B, strong wall with aces STABs + great synergy with the meta), Gardevoir (C+, a little outclassed but niche with Trace), Archeops (C, extremely risky, usually a waste of a team slot), Primeape (B-, decent/predictable u-turner, others more useful really), Tauros (B-, good niche mixed attacker), Klinklang (B, good sweeper w/ bad STAB), Quagsire (C+, niche in ability but not great wall), Gorebyss (C+, not that strong when set up), Munchlax (C-. it's just bad. so many easy ways to destroy it)
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2013
  6. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I'd highly disagree with Slowking not being able to slot into pretty much any team anymore. Looking at all of the A+ to A- pokemon, it has a way to severely cripple or kill every single one of them depending on either its walling sets or Specs. Rotom-C has to watch for Fire Blasts and hates being paralyzed, Durant and Escavalier equally hate fire blast and scald burns, 3/4ths of the physical A tier pokemon absolutely hate either burns or paralysis. And honestly, a max invested Slowking can take hits like a Kabutops' +2 Stone Edge, hit back, switch out and come back later with a little less than 50% health due to rocks. Everything that can trap it barring Spiritomb, Drapion and maybe Absol hate Scald just because it's super effective against them, and even those three have to risk burns.

    Slowking(and Druddigon) is(are) the very definition of an S ranked pokemon; almost nothing likes seeing it and it's not easily removed by any means. The cost for misplaying with it is very low while playing it right can flip a game on its head. It's probably the one thing on this list that I would absolutely never change my opinion on.
     
  7. AmourShipper

    AmourShipper meh i'm bored

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    Well I'll weigh in here.

    Typhlosion to B- or B: C+ is really pushing it for a Pokemon that has a lot of potential. It's fairly one dimensional, but Specs Typhlosion is pretty brutal if you keep priority users at bay, and Eruption hits everything hard early game. Even if you do lose health, Typhlosion has three attacks to work with that hit pretty hard; Blaze Fire Blast is also brutal. Sunny Day Typhlosion is also great because Fire Blast+SolarBeam hit hard, while Typhlosion can still support sun teams well. Fits pretty nicely into B-Rank.

    Scolipede to B: Scolipede is really good in LU imo. The Spikes+TSpikes set is nice on offense, and the speed really helps to allow it to lay fast spikes and deliver fast hits. Swarm Megahorn is also awesome to use as a last resort. SD Scolipede is also pretty awesome and the speed and nice movepool help to allow it to sweep handily; SubSalac is also a complete monster.

    Crustle to A: Probably the best hazard setter in the tier as of now. SR+Spikes, along with Custap Sturdy means Crustle is sure to get at least SR and a layer of Spikes, and this is excellent on offensive teams, this thing should be an easy candidate for A.

    Other than that what's currently listed is good

    My thoughts on the lower usage mons:

    Emboar: Not a bad mon, it's pretty good with its nice coverage and decent bulk; Scarf Emboar is neat to revenge kill Sceptile, Lilligant, Scolipede, etc. CB is also nice and has the advantage over Entei because of coverage, and lack of SR weakness. Entei is a better mon in general and gives Emboar a lot of competition, but Emboar is good at what it does. B

    Jynx: Pretty brutal Pokemon; too bad Escavalier and Slowking hard counter it. Lovely Kiss is a great move and the power and coverage allow Jynx to be very destructive; Nasty Plot is cool too to boost its high SpA to even stronger levels. It's a pretty good Pokemon, but the shitty physical bulk really holds it back. B

    Alomomola: This thing is pretty damn good. Alomomola's massive Wishes are great, and Regenerator+Wish along with amazing physical bulk (this thing is bulkier than Skarmory, for fucks sake), and although it's setup fodder it pairs up well with Pokemon like Roselia and Dusclops who can help it out decently, while they love the massive Wishes. Toxic+Protect is also an annoying combo. B+

    Houndoom: Traps pretty well, and makes a good partner for Hitmonlee and other Fighting-types who'd like to see Uxie, Spiritomb, Dusclops, etc. out of the way for clean sweeps. Flash Fire is nice to absorb WoW and a strong Fire Blast and Sucker Punch make it a good mixed attacker. Nasty Plot is also an awesome set and Houndoom is one of the better NP sweepers in the tier imo. Too bad Zoroark is better, and the prominence of Scarf Krookodile really hurts Houndoom's performance. B-

    Bouffalant: Hits hard, and can come in on Sceptile and Lilligant for free? And has decent bulk too? Yes please. B+

    Gastrodon: I haven't used it, doesn't look that good without Politoed and gang to be going face to face with. Not sure, maybe C+

    Absol: Faces competition from Bisharp, because Bisharp has legitimate physical bulk and a slew of resistances, so it sets up more easily and scares more mons, and is much better than Absol. Absol still has some pretty valuable traits like the special attack and movepool, so it has Fire Blast and Thunderbolt to threaten things that could threaten Bisharp, so it still has some things that keep it used, and still a very effective Pokemon. C+

    Ferroseed: Good defensive spiker, excellent set of resistances; Leech Seed and Iron Barbs are also annoying, as are T-Wave and Protect, so Ferroseed supports its team very well. Gyro ball and iron barbs also means Ferroseed can punish spinners like Kabutops and Cryogonal; although pairing it up with Dusclops is still advisable. The fact that its damage output is bad and it's very one dimensional prevent it from being amazing though. B

    Rhydon: A very good tank, and is very similar to Aggron in the sense that it has the same flaws; it's slow and has exploitable weaknesses, but once this thing gets in it can do a lot of damage. It sets up SR which is awesome, and it also has amazing physical bulk that allows it to check physical threats because it's so hard to KO. EdgeQuake coverage is awesome, and Megahorn helps. CB and RP are great as wallbreaker and sweeper respectively and Rhydon can really do a lot of damage. Those weaknesses are kinda bad though, and because it can't ever use Leftovers, without Wish support any harm done to Rhydon is irreparable, and it gets fucked pretty hard by Spikes+Toxic Spikes. It does its job well though. B

    Roselia: This thing is great, and I'm honestly surprised it isn't already LU. Spikes is a great move, as is Toxic Spikes, and Roselia is one of the best users of the spike hazards available. Roselia sets them up well, and it's a great special wall; taking hits from many prominent threats like Rotom-C, Sceptile, Omastar, Lilligant, Mismagius, etc. As such, it can find opportunities to set up hazards relatively easily. It also can support its team with Aromatherapy and Sleep Powder too. Roselia also has a nice 100 Special Attack and good STABs to threaten the things it walls, and it's certainly no pushover. Natural Cure is also nice to it can be a status platform, and with either Synthesis or Rest Roselia can survive long. B

    Drapion: Not that great of a Pokemon with Krookodile around, Krookodile outclasses it as an offensive Dark-type with its better power and STABs, not to mention Krookodile himself also counters Drapion since it resists the STABs and Krookodile can crush Drapion with EQ. 90 Attack is also kinda eh, albeit not terrible, and having only 80 BP in its STABs kinda sucks, though it is feasible. Toxic Spikes is a possibility, but Drapion suffers from no recovery and no real special bulk; so most of the time I'd rather use Roselia or Scolipede as my Toxic Spiker. Drapion is still usable though; it's just you might as well be using something else. C+

    Mesprit: This thing is pretty good in LU honestly; I'd say it's better than Uxie as an offensive Pokemon because it hits harder; it's also the better SubCMer because Ice Beam is an important move when you consider Krookodile is everywhere and how threatening Krook is. Mesprit is also incredibly versatile and you never know what it's going to do; it can go Choice, CM, etc. TR+Healing Wish is also awesome, and Trick Room is an amazing strategy, Mesprit does well for mid game TR. Mesprit is a pretty underrated and good Pokemon; Uxie is better most of the time, but Mesprit still has some nice traits that make it a great Pokemon. B

    Ludicolo: Now why did this thing drop to NU? Ludicolo is a beast, Rain Dance allows it to outpace everything and Hydro Pump stings in the rain. Giga Drain is also nice to handle those obnoxious bulky Water-types that want to come in on Ludicolo's might Hydro Pumps and also keeps it healthy. This thing is amazing, it should've stayed LU. B+

    Misdreavus: It's a good Pokemon, with its good bulk and Heal Bell, so it does well as a spinblocker. It faces competition from Mismagius and Dusclops though, and Dusclops is often better for stall teams. C+

    Piloswine: Pretty good Pokemon, SR is neat and it has good bulk to work with. Good STABs too. B-

    Gardevoir: This thing is very outclassed as a Psychic-type. As far as an offensive Psychic-type goes; Mesprit and Sigilyph are much better because of better Speed or physical bulk; and Mesprit can actually take a Pursuit or two from Escavalier, and it stands a fighting chance against Spiritomb and Krookodile with Ice Beam and SubCM. Sigilyph can also threaten Pursuit users, and it hits hard in general. That poor physical bulk really hurts Gardevoir, and leaves it very vulnerable to priority and other mons like Scolipede. Gardevoir also can't check things like Hitmonchan, Gallade, hitmonlee, etc. whereas the other Psychic-types can. It lost a niche as a Nidoqueen check, killing it and countersweeping, now that Queen is gone. Gardevoir has a couple of perks such as Trace, the support movepool, and the insane SpA, but unfortunately Gardy still finds itself very well outclassed. Wow, I can't believe I said those words for a Pokemon that was LU for a long time. C

    Archeops: Defeatist really hurts its ability to perform, and priority does not help it either. Archeops is also frail so it's also pretty easy to kill. Flying Gem Acrobatics hurts though and Archeops still performs well as a wallbreaker that can smash things when needed; you'll need to give it a lot of support though. C+

    Primeape: Kinda outclassed by other Fighting-types like Hitmonlee who have much more power, but even then, Primeape carves out a very good niche in U-turn, which is good to attract common answers such as Uxie and Dusclops, and scout; this is great with hazards. Works well in a VoltTurn or Double Fighting core, and helps Hitmonlee pretty well. B-

    Tauros: Good wallbreaker, have yet to test it though.

    Klinklang: Klinklang is awesome. I like the Shift Gear set, and works well as an effective late game cleaner; once it sets up, it can pulverize weakened teams like a boss. Gear Grind is kinda meh STAB, but with Substitute and typing it can use Uxie as setup fodder, and it sweeps well. B

    Quagsire: It's a decent Pokemon, and Unaware gives it a pretty good niche. It checks setup sweepers like Durant, Bisharp, and Gallade, along with other things like Entei, Krookodile, Mesprit/Uxie (CM variants), etc. Reliable recovery helps too. Its bulk isn't that good though and it can't wall the heavy hitters, so it can't be relied on as your only wall; it needs support. Also faces competition from other Waters like Slowking. C+

    Gorebyss: Can someone convince me of any reason to use this over Omastar? Because I don't see one.

    Munchlax: Eh, it's a special wall, not that great though. C
    [/HIDE]

    Some other lower tier mons that I think should be considered for a rank:
    Mandibuzz: Pretty underrated defensive Pokemon, walls a lot of special threats. It has great special bulk and awesome resistances so it does well as a special wall. Roose, Taunt, and Whirlwind are icing; Foul Play or Brave Bird only sweeten the deal. B

    Swellow: Hits hard, fast, and sweeps. Not sure where I'd put it

    Musharna: Good Pokemon, not too sure about it though.

    Hariyama: Guts is a great ability, and Hariyama hits really hard and priority is nice too. It's a decent special wall too.
    [/HIDE]
     
  8. Tyki

    Tyki Change

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    I want to see Mandibuzz on here. It's a solid B- IMO.

    Escav deserves to be higher as well.

    Spiritomb I think is more A- material now that Meloetta is gone, but it's still good.

    Might add more later.
     
  9. New Breed

    New Breed ka$h

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    Crustle should definitely be A rank imo, the amount of early game momentum the Custap set brings is better than any other hazard setter in the tier and is basically the face of LU Offense.

    Tauros could definitely go into A-, it's one of the best wall breakers in the tier, easily beating common physical walls such as Steelix and Tangrowth. It also has amazing Speed which makes it just as big of a threat vs Offense outpacing up to Durant and OHKO'ing with Fire Blast.

    Escavalier for A rank. Escavalier is extremely underrated in LU omylord, this thing is such a great check to basically all Grass types in the tier due to the fact that most of them opt to run Hidden Power Rock > Fire. It also has great overall bulk and we all know how strong that Megahorn is, Offensive resists get 2HKO'd and it also doubles as a great Pursuit trapper.
     
  10. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    Sawk is definitely B material. Everybody knows that it destroys teams in NU, but it has a niche in LU over Gallade and Medicham as it can 2HKO standard Spiritomb with EQ or Stone Edge, while not fearing Shadow Sneak or Sucker Punch. With Stealth Rocks up Sawk also breaks the TanKing core with CB Close Combat. Pair this wallbreaker up with a Scarf/Expert Belt Krookodile and you're good to go.

    Scolipede is one of the better Toxic Spikes users out there. There's only two Poison-types on this viability list, Scolipede included and none of them are higher than B rank. Poison puts a lot of pressure on defensive teams and it's a lot more effective in LU than in any other tier aside from maybe Ubers. It should at least be rank B.
     
  11. team rocket grunt

    team rocket grunt New Member

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    Miltank to B:
    Many try, around 80% fail to break my wall. The other 20% use rotom or missymagus against it.
    It counters Tangrowth's giga drain and sleep powder and gets a nice stat raise by that, furtheron it boosts attack and defense like crazy, so not even hitmonlee or hitmonchan can do over 50% damage to it, and then we got a rugget/rocky helmet that partially reflects contact damage, so cinccino pretty much kills itself and life-orb pokes and/or recoil attack pokes like braviary will have a hard time due to 50% hp heal and heal bell vs status problems. With a nice bodyslam with 30% chance to para (that is like 50% chance on the PO server) to round it up makes Miltank incredibly strong. It is a physical sweeper and a physical wall at the same time, plus a status healer and annoyer. The only downside to Miltank is rotom/missimagus and special sweepers. Since most Spiritombs are phyiscal, they will end up killing themselfes if you just spam the heal. Against taunters like Krookodile, simply spam bodyslam till it get's para'd. Focus blast is quite a counter to the fat rampage cow, but besides that: who needs a Steelix when you can have a Miltank?
    It is quite fast for a staller, ofc the speed drains with curse, but when the opponent switches to a faster poke, it is almost to late, 1-2 boosts and a bodyslam do the work for me against most pokes from the LU tier.

    It's my core pokemon in LU, i change the rooster alot, but that Miltank stays, cause it's amazing.
    It does not need any support, it IS the support, so you can play Miltank with any combination of pokes.


    Slowking/Druddigon?

    Slowking is ohko for Sceptile/Tangrowth and gets easily countered by a Jinx with dryskin. Or a normal rotom.
    I don't see it very often, but when I see it, it has not even 1 turn to shine, so it's rather a B or C rank from my perspective.

    Druddigon, that weakly dragon thing... um... dragontail and ability roughskin. And? 1 icebeam from Jinx ohkos it, or you just nuke it with dragon pulse on a Sceptile. It's not very fast, so around 80% of the pokemon used in the tier can outspeed it.

    My S-rank:
    Durant -> strongest poke in the tier, but bad accuracy, 6-0 chainsweeps with luck.
    Entei -> propably the only thing that can kill a boosted Durant.
    Uxie -> simply the most annoying shit in the tier.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2013
  12. meeps

    meeps Well-Known Member

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    miltank is fine where it is

    much of your info is inaccurate, hitmonchan does 70% min to max def miltank, hitmonlee has good chance to ohko after rocks with non-boosted hjk. sap sipper doesnt raise defense. without any spdef invest miltank struggle to take hits from strong special attackers in the tier. with sap sipper miltank is at risk of being 2hko'd by fire attacks such as flare blitz from entei (when it usually woulnt with thick fat). and what krookodile runs taunt lol. you cant compare steelix to miltank considering they have completely different niches

    slowking is one of the tier's premier walls, checking many top tier threats such as entei, hitmonchan, hitmonlee, etc. with regenerator and slak off it is extremely hard to take down, suggesting slowking for c tier, even b tier is an absolute joke

    druddigon is an excellent offensive and defensive threat. anything not a steel-type will be 2hko'd by outrage, eq and superpower threaten steelix and other steels too. with dragon-type druddigon checks the prevalent fwg core and with excellent bulk, it can take hits from the likes of entei rotom-c sceptile (no one runs dragon pulse lmao) etc

    both are top tier threats, enough said

    entei has too many checks to be s tier tbh, and it's not the only thing to beat durant lol. any special attacker faster or scarfed can easily ko durant, durant is fine where it is tight now imo

    new breed's suggestions are good, tauros is a beast js
     
  13. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    Zoroark is being moved down to B rank.

    Esca is being moved to A-. (It can move further with more opinions that are good)
    Durant and Esca do two completely different tasks. Durant outspeeds the vast majority of the tier and still has the power of a wallbreaker. I'm not sure how you think Durant doesn't have the power to break walls, since the ant can 2HKO literally everything in the tier with SR up. Steelix, Poliwrath, and Aggron all fall to Superpower (something Esca wishes it could have). And unlike Esca, Durant doesn't have to deal getting Rest Stalled by Poliwrath, or a quicker Fire Blast from Slowking, or a surprise HP Fire from Tangrowth. This is why people don't use Esca as much, the whole tier is prepared for it (even if only for Durant) at this stage.

    @Typhlosion, I've never found its Eruptions all that useful, its terribly weak to hazards, and can't provide anything defensively for a team. If it switches into SR once, you would have been better off using Magmortar. It just requires so much support to do anything useful, and it loses to far too many common Pokemon to be above B-.

    Crustle is being moved to A.

    Kabutops is located above Hitmonchan currently because Kabutops can fit better into HO FWG teams, and the SD set is extremely threatening even when Kabutops isn't spinning.

    I'll update the Lower used ones a bit later.
     
  14. Omfuga216

    Omfuga216 Banned

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    I wasn't trying to compare durant and escavalier as pokemon.... I agree that they have completely different roles. I was just saying that durant has less power than escavalier, showing that its power is more adequate for single-handedly demolishing teams. I think durant should move down simply because it isn't the fantastic sweeper it's cut out to be (in my opinion). It has shaky accuracy, there are quite a few pokemon that can wall it (poliwrath, rotom [to a pretty decent extent], escavalier [takes a +1 superpower and OHKOs back with megahorn or even swarm-boosted x-scissor], Moltres [assuming the hone claws set with superpower you're referring to], scarfed emboar, and galvantula which takes any one hit and OHKO's back, and there are plenty of pokemon that can outspeed it and finish it off, namely Sceptile (hp fire or specs focus blast), Accelgor (life orb focus blast), and Tauros. On top of all of this, there are plenty of scarfers that can revenge durant from full HP due to its lackluster special bulk, and only decent physical bulk. Escavalier, on the other hand, has a whole different reason to be higher on the chart. It doesn't sweep, but it still packs the power to rip teams to shreds without setting up, or being easily revenged. Obviously, much like durant, it has a few defensive counters (poliwrath, moltres, steelix), but it packs a huge punch. Also, boasting base 105 defense and special defense, escavalier needs to be taken down gradually, or with a hard-hitter. Escavalier finds a nice place on hyper offense or bulky offense. Banded escavalier-specs slowking cores are used pretty commonly, and together take each other's offensive and defensive checks and counters down.
     
  15. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    imo Escavalier belongs in B+ or B. it's strong etc but its painful slowness and weakness to common moves on top tier pokemon make it a lot more risky to use on a team than other physical attackers. "These Pokemon are above average in the metagame. They have notable flaws that effect performance, but are still very useful overall." absolutely describes Escavalier more than any other pokemon in this tier.
     
  16. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    I was refering to the Band set, since that was what was in your post. One thing I think you missed, Durant outspeeds half of those Pokemon. Esca gets 2HKO'd, standard Rotom gets 2HKO'd, Moltres gets 2HKO'd (25% of an OHKO with Rocks), Galvantula gets OHKO'd by X-scissor (57% of an OHKO with Iron Head and Rocks) and is outsped, Emboar takes ~50% from Iron Head (OHKO'd by superpower).

    Yes, it can get revenge killed (not by any attack as it survives a Volt Switch from Rotom-C), but so can Esca, and by literally the entire tier. Yes, Esca has bulk, but the bulk doesn't matter when your opponent can use every pokemon on their team to destroy you. Not only that, but Esca movepool is so shallow that it can't beat its checks. Steelix and Poliwrath etc, all wall it forever, where against Durant they have to worry about a 2HKO or losing 95% of their health. Both Esca and Durant have flaws yes, but Durant has the speed to make up for its weaknesses, while esca only has the fact that it hits marginally harder with an Adamant Nature.
     
  17. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Escavalier doesn't have to rely on shaky accuracy every time it uses a move, which is the main downfall of Durant, unreliability. Escav is also a very effective Sleep Talk abuser being able to take on Jynx and Grass types if they lack HP Fire, and can survive many more neutral hits. It can also easily switch into the things it can kill like Uxie and co and not fear getting crippled like T Wave, whereas you almost have to have a free switch into Durant lest it be crippled by status or OHKO'd by a special move. Pursuit is pretty huge too being able to trap and kill offensive pokemon and Ghosts/Psychics, allowing it to be a better team supporter. It can also run a very effective Sp Def rest talk set to much more reliably take on many special attackers. So I'd say it deserves to be alongside Durant, or at least an A rank. Both are very similar in the fact that they're bug/steel powerhouses, however Durant is the faster riskier + frailer one which is harder to wall and Escav is the bulkier safer option, which can also support its team by absorbing Sleep and Pursuit trapping.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2013
  18. Omfuga216

    Omfuga216 Banned

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    My bad, I thought galvantula outsped durant. Clearly, you're correct about that-- if galvantula is outsped it can hardly be classified as a check. Escavalier can OHKO back, after durant sets up a hone claws and superpowers it. Standard Rotom gets 2hkod, but as a scarfer, it can OHKO back with tbolt after rocks or one life orb hit. Plus, rotom resists every hit, so assuming even the bulky will-o-wisp set, it can beat durant 1v1. The only set that fails to beat durant (without taking substantial damage first) is the life orb pain split set, which still has the power to take any hit and OHKO with tbolt. And escavalier most definitely cannot be revenged by the "entire tier". 105 in each defense is not easily revengable. And one last thing, you keep saying poliwrath walls escavalier, whereas it doesn't wall durant. That's simply not true. it does 50-59% with +1 superpower, not being able to 2hko after the drop, and taking half from scald, or being circle thrown out and taking 35%. Also, if durant sets up a hone claws, does 50-59% to poliwrath, then attacks poliwrath again, poliwrath can simply rest off the damage, and sleep talk either of its attacks to do massive damage to durant.
     
  19. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    If you want to talk about the Hone Claws set, Esca gets OHKO'd by a +1 LO Superpower 62% of the time and 100% with SR up. So either way, Esca isn't going to take that hit
    SubSplit Rotom loses, Choice Specs Rotom loses, LO Offensive Rotom loses all by being 2HKO'd by any resisted attack. Choice Scarf and Bulky Rotom have to hope that Durant doesn't carry or use Crunch and can only switch into play once.

    Choice Band Durant can 2HKO Poliwrath with SR and one layer of Spikes with poor damage rolls, with good damage rolls Durant can 2HKO with SR. If you use HO, Durant with have an extra boost from LO, which makes Poliwrath have no choice but to Rest.

    Just because Esca has 105 Def doesn't mean that its some sort of defensive god, it has a very bad weakness to Fire, and is slower than every single Fire-type in LU, not to mention things like Slowking, Tangrowth, HP Fire Sceptile and Lilligant, Fire Punch (or Flamethrower I guess) Druddigon. What I meant by the entire tier is that Esca is essentially the slowest Pokemon in the tier, which means that anything that can OHKO it is a revenge killer to it.


    Side Note: Spiritomb is moved to B+.
     
  20. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    I personally think Clefable should be A-. It can do numerous things for you - special wall, wallbreaker, Wish supporter, cleric and bulky special sweeper. It's very unpredictable and can be extremely capable. I remember winning an LU tournament by sweeping a guy's team with mixed Clefable.
     
  21. Health

    Health Champion of LU

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    I'd personally move Bisharp up to a B+ or A-, since it is almost impossible for the average LU team to beat it once it gets +4 in a sub. (Which happens often)
     
  22. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    And how is it getting +4 and(/or) behind a sub?
    Unless you're playing people who leave choice locked psychics (into a psychic move) in on Bisharp, that isn't going to happen - hate to break it to you, but bisharp is fine were it is.
     
  23. Health

    Health Champion of LU

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    I've been able to get Bisharp up to +4 a lot behind a sub, especially on set ups like Uxie.
     
  24. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    +4 takes two turns and a sub takes one more.
    No good player is giving you three free turns, especially if you're using Bisharp.
     
  25. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    I really don't see how Bisharp could ever commonly get both +4 or Sub; Uxie usually carries U-turn to fuck over Bisharp, and Bisharp loses to SubCM Uxie.

    Really Bisharp is too hard to set-up properly and too reliant on prediction to be any higher than it is currently.
     
  26. team rocket grunt

    team rocket grunt New Member

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    If your opponents core strat relies on a Bisharp, he will make sure to take down your counter pokes first. And then, if your counter pokes are down, chainsweep to gg.

    Even the high ranked players can get haxed with para, missed attacks, etc., so with some luck it is possible to get 2x SD.

    A Steelix with Sturdy and Roar should work fine tho, unless HP ground gets new meta on Bisharp. :rolleyes:
     
  27. AmourShipper

    AmourShipper meh i'm bored

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    Bisharp requires very specific win conditions to be able to set up a Substitute and/or a Swords Dance. The main problem with Bisharp is setting up, and Bisharp also has a bad case of 4MSS; if it dumps either iron head, a Fighting move, or Substitute; it's either going to get completely walled by a certain array of Pokemon (with Iron Head, Magneton and Steelix destroy you; with a Fighting move, most Ghosts will ironically beat you, and without Sub, you're prone to burns and the like). Sucker Punch is also a pretty shaky move to use; as if your opponent manages to play around it (such as with Substitute Sceptile or Scolipede), then you're probably fucked. Bisharp is very good, don't get me wrong, but it has too many flaws to make it into A- or B+.

    By the way, some lower usage mons should be on the ranking imo; I already talked about them in a previous post
     
  28. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Delta Stream

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    coming from someone who built around Bisharp in that Dark Knight RMT - Bisharp is really hard to set up, due to nearly every Pokemon, even the Psychic types, having something to break the Sub (as evidenced with Uxie and U-turn, or Slowking with Fire Blast, or Gallade with Fighting STAB).

    Bisharp can get to +4 on Dusclops tho but Seismic Toss breaks Sub. It requires some mindgames to set up and not get Seismic Tossed with a combination of Sub and SD

    Bisharp is good where it is, if not worse
     
  29. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    See how your logic is flawed? I just replaced a few words and it's still "true," if we're talking about ideal conditions for the sweeper and terrible luck for your opponent. That can be said about any and all sweepers, but it just doesn't happen in practice.

    Bisharp is fine where it is. It can't trap Slowking without risking Fire Blast or a burn, it can't trap Mismagius well because HP Fighting is an OHKO while Sucker can be avoided with Sub, and it has to come in on Rotom when it's not Volt Switching. SD Sucker Punch is nice but can be played around with prediction. It relies far too much on Sucker Punch to sweep a number of teams successfully, since it only has sub par speed. If you go Night Slash, you have to have significant paralysis support to make sure every offensive pokemon on the other side is paralyzed, which isn't as easy as it sounds. Just because it's B rank doesn't mean it's bad, it just means it's good. Nothing more, nothing less.
     
  30. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Bisharp imo could be worth a B+, it's best utislised with a 4 attacks life orb set, when paired with a hazard stacking crustle, it can easily sweep through teams with this, as it has all the coverage it needs, and has night slash so doesn't have to worry about prediction with sucker punch against the slower psychics and ghosts, but it's fine as a B.

    Also Uxie definitely cannot ever stop Bisharp from setting up, it can T Wave at best, and U-Turn does not break a sub.
     
  31. Omfuga216

    Omfuga216 Banned

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    Alan but as a 4-attack user, absol is more suited anyway. I mean, iron head on its own doesnt make up for lackluster speed, a lack of pursuit, low kick for coverage rather than superpower, and 5 less base attack. Granted, bisharp does have better bulk and a nice defensive secondary typing, but I think as a 4-attack set, absol does it better, and bisharp is more suited for sub-sd if anything. I like where it is, but I agree, bisharp should be a B or B+, but it's not completely misplaced as some people are saying.

    But yeah, I agree with Alan. I don't understand how u-turn from uxie "fucks over" bisharp.
     
  32. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf Active Member

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    I'm not going to comment on Bisharp's placement but I would like to make people aware of the set I used throughout the POWC that caught my opponents completely off guard and proved extremely effective in every match.

    Bisharp (F) @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Defiant
    EVs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Taunt
    - Iron Head
    - Sucker Punch

    I devised this set initially to counter and defeat Lead Crustle while running a Hyper Offensive team that did not appreciate hazards. Taunt is so uncommon that it can prevent Crustle from setting up hazards every time. This extends to other slower hazards setters, notably Druddigon, and the rare slow set up sweeper though those are particularly uncommon. Obviously Stealth Rock is necessary for each team and the Lead Sash allows Bisharp to consistently set up SR against every common lead bar Aerodactyl. Even without boosts Iron Head and Sucker Punch hit quite hard against non-stall teams and this set can absolutely destroy offensive teams early game, especially when the opponent is caught in confusion about what the set is.

    A common scenario against a Crustle lead offense team would be Taunting the Crustle, setting Rocks on the switch, Iron Heading the relatively frail switch in (bar KOs Sucker will get) as it takes you to sash (if that) and racking up Rocks damage with the Sucker Punch threat.

    EV's are to outspeed max speed Crustle as well as standard Qwilfish (210 Speed Bisharp), allowing you to Taunt it if it comes in. Defiant is useful for things like Qwilfish, turning their Intimidates into +1 attack.

    Like I said I'm not going to argue where Bisharp should be, just going to show that it isn't entirely one-dimensional.
     
  33. team rocket grunt

    team rocket grunt New Member

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    I'd never say something like that about Durant!!
    Team Rocket's Durant™ kicked major ass some months ago when there weren't so much Magnetons and also it can't be compared to Bisharp since it just needed 1 turn to set up, most likely in the first round when the enemy used stealthrocks, and then 6-0 chainsweeped if there was no Steelix.

    About other sweepers, you may be right tho.




    So I made a Bisharp team for fun and testing, 80% winrate. Sucker punch just ohkos alot of stuff and only about 20% of the people (~1100-1250) actively counter it. Enemy uses random psychic attack, you switch in Bisharp, 0 damage *wakka wakka* -> he changes the poke, in that time you get a sub -> then he breaks the sub, you boost to +2 -> next round sucker punch ohko vs most pokes. And if he needs 2 turns to break the sub, you even get +4, and that ohkos even more.

    I also wonder why some people don't put Def EVs in Slowking. Any x-scissor or sucker punch will beat the shit out of that poke before it even can think about using fire blast.
     
  34. Wepwn

    Wepwn Wonderbread

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    Have no idea where Team Rocket grunt is getting at with this but Bisharp is fine where it is as most others have said, it's hard to set up with it, it doesn't have too great of a typing and has its good amount of checks/counters. Like Finchinator said no GOOD player will just sit there with a psychic mon and let Bisharp set up in front of their face lol.
     
  35. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Also not to mention switching Bisharp in on the Psychic types is not easy either. Slowking - Fire Blast OHKOs, and fancy risking a Scald burn? Gallade - STAB Fighting moves. Medicham - see Gallade. Jynx - Lovely Kiss puts it out of commission, Focus Blast OHKOs. Apart from Uxie (and even then Bisharp still won't like Thunder Wave) it has to be careful switching in on all of them.
     
  36. team rocket grunt

    team rocket grunt New Member

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    Well, scald or will o' wisp ain't do much vs a sub and sucker punch will okho psychic types anyways, no matter what moves they have. The only thing you shouldn't do is obviously switching it into a focus blast.
    About the "no good player will let you set up a Bisharp" stuff:
    you don't even need to set up the Bisharp that early, a sub is enough to 2hko most stuff, with a bit of prediction you can SD when they switch out pokes, and simply taunt them into attack, so they ain't feast on your sucker punch PP with status moves. What good players ain't let you do, is using moves like iron head or brick break due to Bisharps low speed. You need that +1 prio sucker punch, and only that, because counterpokes will be faster on normal prio. If you have some layers of spikes and SR, that will drain enough HP for sucker punch to finish stuff off. Ofc that requires you to win the usual spike/spin battle. I'm currently using a Kabutops as spinner&spiker, it works out quite well, making way for bisharp to deal some serious damage. You can also use a Crustle. Actually, Bisharp is a strong poke that could have a higher ranking if people would learn to use it to it's full extent. Ofc, Steelix and Magneton will still break it. It also can get caught off guard by a good Krookodile or Hitmonlee set.

    Bisharp is quite similar to Jinx, if you let it set up or do the right thing at the right moment, it even okhos pokes with resistance. It's rather the question how you build your team to support this kind of sweeper.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2013
  37. RudeStyle

    RudeStyle A year late x D

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    Totally agreeing with this. Even though it packs a punch. Its probably one of the slowest pokemon in the tier if not the slowest xd. Making it hard to utilize ( Maybe its just me being bad...idk). When you could use durant and sacrifice slight accuracy and attack for a ton of extra speed which allows it to outspeed potential threats.

    Apart from that I think clefable could be slightly higher everything else seems fine where it is.
     
  38. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    One cannot assume perfect circumstances in favour of the Pokémon. "Gyarados is broken because when it's given 3 free turns it sweeps p much every team". It's simply a stupid reasoning.

    Wish I could too.

    I think Hitmonchan could deserve a spot in A+, it packs a really violent punch and great coverage if it wishes to. Along with healing and prio in Mach/Drain Punch respectively, and Forseight/Spin to help it tackle or spin against Ghosts such as Spiritomb and Rotom with a little simple prediction.

    I think Magmortar and Manetric pack enough of a punch/speed/Volt Switch to earn a B- or B spot personally. Both are incredibly daunting to switch into due to their immense coverage. Manetric possesses the speed to outrun a large amount of the meta (105 base), and can make very respectable use of Volt Switch. Its increased SpAtk and Lightningrod gives it niché next to Pokémon like Galvantula. Both struggle to kill things like Lanturn though.
     
  39. Wepwn

    Wepwn Wonderbread

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    Magmortar at C+ is pretty ridiculous. With the coverage it packs it can destroy stall team single handily. There are honestly no real switch ins into the E-belt set and you gotta predict around it to beat it. Agreeing with Weavile, it should at least be at B.
     
  40. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    I've put all of the Pokemon in the lower tiers into the list; I put them all low so people will actually discuss more things.