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[BW2] September / October Wifi NU Tier / Potential Suspect Discussion

Discussion in 'Gen 5 NU' started by Finchinator, Sep 8, 2013.

  1. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Hello everyone! After two months full of suspects, we have a whopping 6 additions to the NU tier. Interestingly, a couple of these pokemon, such as Dusclops, Ferroseed, and Claydol, have never been NU this whole generation, until now.

    Wifi NU Tier Leaders: CasedVictory and Finchinator (just click my name to goto my profile!)

    Wifi LU->Wifi NU
    Absol
    Claydol
    Dusclops
    Dusknoir
    Ferroseed
    Miltank

    Note that this will be the last tier change by usage this generation, so unless pokemon are suspected and banned, they're staying NU!

    Discuss the impact of these pokemon on the metagame. Also, don't be afraid to say what you believe is broken, or not. However, we ask for you to test the controversial pokemon out before theorymonning or discussing them. If you don't, you risk being infracted.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2013
  2. Accelgor

    Accelgor Active Member

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    It's nice that we get 3 potential pokemon to set up Stealth Rocks, namely Claydol, Ferroseed, and Miltank. The additions of the Dusclops and Dusknoir should also add to the list of spinblockers and Sawk counters. And while Absol's stats aren't too special (bar that amazing attack stat), it can still pose a humongous threat to the current metagame.
     
  3. Um Hello?

    Um Hello? Member

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    First thoughts after a shortish amount of time spent messing around with the changes. (about 90 mins, including finding battles time.) the only ones that I believe are a bit TOO good are the Dusc's, - I've only seen and used Clops but Noir is pretty similar anyway, Noir just has the ability to run a more offensive set.

    If any of the above changes are going to be suspected it should 100% be the Dusc's, everything else is fine, Claydol giving a decent spinner to a tier that didn't really have any.

    I'll post or edit again after 50 or 100 or so battles, or in a few hours. Depends, really.


    Whilst not related wholly, the core some of the Pokemon that dropped down form is pretty scary, lol.

    (Ferro, Miltank, Dusclops, Claydol mainly - with thick fat miltank for fire/ice attacks.)


    Absol right now seems kind of meh to me, like it always has, but maybe it can perform in NU.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2013
  4. Daybreak

    Daybreak can't touch this

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    Spinning in nu is going to be more important then ever with the addition of claydol, miltank and ferroseed. However, we now have a psychic type that doesn't easily get pursuit trapped in the form of claydol. However it does have that weakness to ice, aka sawk's ice punch so it is only a check still. Stall is gonna get a big boost in this metagame with the addition of ferroseed and dusclops but it shouldn't be impossible to break through. Finally absol and miltank are powerful threats with absol being able to sd and sucker punch while miltank can go either defensive or offensive. Absol in my opinion is going to be a fantastic wallbreaker, nothing really wants to take 2 hits from it.
     
  5. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    I've already tested a new team revolving around spikestack (extremely good in NU, due to the lack of good spinners) and an all-out attacking Absol set. I'm using a defensive core of the new drop Ferroseed, Alomomola, Lickilicky and Misdreavus. Banded Sawk and Absol form an extremely powerful offensive core.

    Ferroseed is an amazing poke in NU, and imo it's so much better than Roselia. Access to Spikes AND Stealth Rock means you can save a team slot for a SR user, and it's generally a lot more convenient to have both on one poke. It resists most types and is only weak to two, and for that reason alone many players will use it. It's basically Ferrothorn for NU, it's just amazing. In combination with Alomomola and Misdreavus it's very powerful.

    I haven't got to use Absol that much because nobody could get past my defensive core. It has the most powerful Sucker Punch in the game and in NU that's definitely something to take into account. Something that you should also consider is that Jolly Absol outspeeds Adamant Sawk, and still OHKO's with Zen Headbutt. Good for some surprise kills I guess.
    With some hazard support (possibly from Ferroseed), Absol can do major work. Here's some calcs:

    252+ Atk Life Orb Absol Superpower vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 302-356 (75.31 - 88.77%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes (Piloswine is VERY bulky, so this is impressive)
    252+ Atk Life Orb Absol Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rotom-S: 175-208 (72.61 - 86.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (one of the best revenge killers dies after SR, Trick sucks though)
    0 SpA Life Orb Absol Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Tangela: 234-278 (70.27 - 83.48%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes (yeah, that's not a counter sorry)

    Not too excited about the other drops. Claydol spins, but loses to Missy. Dusknoir is kinda cool, Dusclops is just annoying >.> Glad to see Miltank in NU though, it's a good cleric and tank. Also Scrappy is awesome.
     
  6. AmourShipper

    AmourShipper meh i'm bored

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    Absol and Dusclops are by far the drops I'm most excited for now! I'm going to build Absol+Dusclops+Gardevoir GOGOGO

    Absol will be an amazing Dark-type in NU, it can SD+Sucker Punch and Superpower and sweeps like a complete boss, it can also use Pursuit to be a trapper, it and Houndoom are going to be Sawk's best teammates: Absol+Sawk will be the best dynamic duo in the world.

    Dusclops will be an amazing wall and spinblocker, the ultimate Sawk check, and a great wall in general. I'm really excited for it.

    Dusknoir will be outclassed by Dusclops and shit on by Absol so eh.

    Ferroseed will be great too.
     
  7. Parpar

    Parpar Member

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    Absol, long time no see. uguu
     
  8. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Dusknoir + Claydol now i can die happy.

    Claydol can set up rocks, chck sawk and block volt switch hnnnnnnnnnnnnnng

    and dusknoirs sub punch set is hnnnng too
     
  9. WizzleKidd

    WizzleKidd Wizzlin' PO since Feb '11

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    Dusclops gets destroyed by taunt or a sub so I won't worry about him. The amount of dark/ghost attacks SHOULD keep Dusknoir in check but don't underestimate Noir. They both make Sawk less powerful which is a good thing.
    Absol-dearest was NU a long time ago and was fine here until he moved up naturally. Solid poke.
    Miltank's interesting as she has three amazing diverse abilities which could make her a threat if used.
    Claydol, eeehhhhhh, may be good. Doubt it would be rapid spinning much with all the ghosts lurking around.
    Ferroseed, meh. Time to pack a fire move. GG.
     
  10. Professor Oak

    Professor Oak same Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep

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    >claydol

    NU got a decent spinner!

    >clops / noir

    ...disregard that
     
  11. Um Hello?

    Um Hello? Member

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    Curse beats sub if you have it and Night Shade/SToss isn't terrible :(
     
  12. topah

    topah Active Member

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    RIP Duskull I loved you so much. ;_;
     
  13. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    Personally, I think clops is way too bulky for nu, but let's see what happens I suppose
    You may think the dark types counter it, but it burns all non houndoom dark types and a pursuit on switch out does like 35-43% I think from a LO houndoom...

    I love all the other changes tbh
     
  14. big ed

    big ed bulk is tacky

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    really diggin' clay + clops, planning on making a bunch of teams tonight so can test morrow before work get hype!! hyped for dat moomoo milk also
     
  15. TheUserFormerlyKnownAsFPT

    TheUserFormerlyKnownAsFPT Woof

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    I really like Claydol, but unfortunately I can see Wartortle remaining the most popular spinner in the tier due to the drop of Dusknoir and Dusclops as well.

    Looking forward to using Miltank though.
     
  16. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    I don't fully agree with this, sure taunt is an answer to dusclops, but he can still hit you for 100 dmg w/ seismic toss/night shade, also because of this, sub will only work if you are immune to his move (normal if night shade ghost if s toss) or if you carry the nice 101 hp subs.
    I think dusclops will be/is a problem poke due to the lack of pokemon that can 2hko it effectively, since the most powerful physical attacker, sawk, has fighting as his stab. I may be biased, but I remember this thing walling almost everything, even in lu due to his IMMENSE bulk, albeit his poor hp stat. I personally think dusclops deserves a test, but it just dropped so I'll withhold my judgement until I see what it does. dusclops has plenty of pokes that can switch into it, (lickilicky and other pokes w/ recovery), but those same pokes lack the means to kill/damage dusclops, especially if it has rest talk which makes toxic/burning it ineffective. Curse dusclops also forces switches easily and due to his pitiful hp stat, pain split steals a lot of hp, although this type of dusclops is susceptible to burn/poisoning.
     
  17. Reik

    Reik Active Member

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    absol are u serius
     
  18. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    Absol seems scary, but it has plenty of counters and many checks, check my countering the threats thread for more info
     
  19. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Holy damn that's a lotta drops. O.o

    looks like more things to analyse! *shot*

    I fear NU turning into the Spikes hell meta again, and that would annoy me greatly because I hate stall. :(
     
  20. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Spikes can work on Hyper-Offensive and Stall.
    If anything, the addition of Absol makes stall even harder to run and Ferroseed fits well on Offensive spiking teams, just like Garbodor - so stall won't be helped much more than HO.
    I've only tested a minimal amount, so that's all I shall say for now.
     
  21. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    While true, it'll still mean Spikes fucking everywhere lol. I may have to actually dust off PO and get some battles done though (assuming my internet EVER gets fixed. =/)
     
  22. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    Full stall in NU is ehhhh. It's definitely viable, even more so with Ferroseed and Dusclops, but semi-stall imo is better. For example, you can get a nice stall-core between Ferroseed (hazards + status/Leech Seed and many resistances/Tank), Lickilicky (WishPasser, special wall, cleric, phazer) and Misdreavus (Taunt/stallbreaker, physical wall, spinblocker). That leaves you with three slots to play around with freely, as you have pretty much all necessities for a decent team covered with the other three.
    This way you can focus on covering weaknesses of stall, like Taunters (stupid Mandibuzz), setup sweepers and wallbreakers. Tbh you can't cover everything even with the best stall team and having some offensive threats on your team at least gives you a plan B when stalling fails.
     
  23. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I'd actually chance Licky out for Momo, as she can pass wishes, has Regenerator, and near perfect type synergy with Missy and Ferro. Missy can be a cleric if needed, and all three can work even as mixed walls.

    Throw in a VoltTurn combo, just because why not, and then a powerful cleanup sweeper like maybe LO Kadabra, and you're good. :3

    EDIT: Owait, and a spinner somewhere. One of those would be pretty useful too lol.
     
  24. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Absol does get Fire Blast for Ferroseed, plus Emboar still exists for all your Fighting AND Fire physical STAB needs(only 2 base stat points lower in attack than Sawk and can go specs!). Just throwing that out there. The fact that ferro also has no offensive presence at all is a huge turn off to running it, as even though it can "counter" things like mixed or SD Samurott, but it takes a few turns to KO them as well. Plus if it DOES run Bullet Seed, Afro Bull gets a feast. Gyro Ball just doesn't hit much at all.

    Dusclops/noir being added along with Claydol really doesn't hinder it that badly; they both still hate Toxic, and even if your opponent has a cleric that's still a few turns they have to burn to clear status. Same thing applies to clops' possible rest sets. Anyway, both of the dusks will be incredible in the tier, with clops especially being able to take a hell of a lot of punishment.

    Miltank's a good pokemon, it's always nice to get another solid cleric. Plus it's an interesting offensive pokemon as well, with access to Recovery and above average bulk, complimented by that base 100 speed.
     
  25. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    Only thing I'm worried about is dusclops, I was testing it earlier and the thing just didn't die (unless you count topah freezing it or it getting flinched) It is weak to normal types w/ sub or taunt, but it can burn them on the switch or be paired up with something to handle them easily.

    Absol is scary, but it has things that can switch in
     
  26. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    I've used Absol a bit, and while it's certainly powerful at this stage I wouldn't say broken. I'm most worried about Dusclops, although I haven't come across one yet and don't want to theorymon.
     
  27. MrLumber

    MrLumber Member

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    Honestly everything seems to have a place so far, although Clops can do a ton of work (unsurprisingly). I've actually been running an offensive set with EQ, Ice Punch, Shadow Sneak, and Pain split. While it can put in a lot of work against teams running houdoom and the like, its not broken by any means. I think people have a tendency to overestimate WoW, mostly because it both requires a predict AND the chance to hit. Also, with Miltank in the tier we have 4(+) extremely viable heal bell users. Clops can be a momentum sap for the team using it, never being able to cover anything and getting donked by any bulky things that set up (musharna, lickilicy, etc.). Honestly the only thing I'm having a problem with is absol, with +2 under its belt all counters become checks and all checks become dead usually. Right now I think the only notable things that can deal with it are drapion, gurdurr, sawk, rhydon, primeape (although SP deals 80% minimum at +2) and carracosta. While it certainly can have a hard time getting that +2, it can set up on a lot of psychic and ghost types, and can easily carry Lum in order to get a free turn on things (although it misses out on the 100% OHKO vs Emboar and Hariyama). Additionally most of these "checks and counters" have to deal with the increased chance of getting crit (aside from drapion). What's more, absol doesn't even really need the +2 to function and can easily just take out ghosts/psychics who need to stay in to prevent it from setting up (which is what my actual problem is). Sawk/Absol is quite possibly the most devastating version of the Dark/Fighting combo we've been seeing. While I'll do more testing, currently the only thing suspect worthy imo.
     
  28. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    I feel like your offensive clops would work a lot better if it was a dusknoir, but thats just me.

    I think defensive clops is just too hard to break, WoW doesn't really require prediction, maybe if you're WoW'ing on the switch to a pokemon w/ taunt, but you can always just switch on the taunt freely.

    For Absol, he's really strong. No denying it, but you have things that can switch in:
    Standard SD sucker punch night slash superpower: Gurdurr, harriyama, Throh, defensive carracosta, Rhydon, defensive piloswine, tangela, Alom
    Offensive pokes that can come in on an SD and take (may not really like it) a LO SP: Sawk, Primeape, Emboar
    It gets fire blast,Tbolt with a USABLE 75 SpA for Tang/Alom; but it has to give up a move to do so which it doesn't really like
    It does get Psycho cut, which allows it, at +2 with LO, to kill Gurdurr, Big Harriyama, Throh, and banded emboar; however, it has to give up sucker punch, night slash, or superpower. I've won a game because someone gave up sucker punch for psycho cut, allowing me to outspeed and kill it with swanna, something that normally would die from a sucker punch.

    Absol is scary, but I'm really more scared of dusclops. I'll do some alt laddering, testing both the unbreakable wall and the unstoppable force this weekend, and report what I find then.
     
  29. MrLumber

    MrLumber Member

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    I've tried both, and the additional bulk of Clops is helpful, although the loss of power is definitely noticeable. I just feel that defensive dusclops, while 'uncrackable' there is so much stuff that can take advantage of its inability to be damaging to simply be death fodder, on top of being incredibly easy to chip away at if it lacks rest (and often with it as well).

    In regards to Absol, take out Hariyama and Emboar and that'd be accurate, primeape also takes 80% minimum from a +2 sucker punch (although that might be LO, have to check). +2 superpower is a guaranteed OHKO with LO on emboar, and 80% OHKO without on hari (and that hari is with 172 evs in defense no less!). Additionally, both Alo and Tangela can't actually damage Absol significantly in return, only status it.
     
  30. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Hang on, Superpower does less damage to Emboar? Pretty sure Hariyama's a lot bulkier... ._.

    EDIT: Owait, reread. My bad.

    I disagree with that last part though. Absol is not bulky. Both Tangela and Alomomola have STAB options they can use to hit it with, namely Giga Drain and Waterfall/Scald. Scald can cripple with a burn (assuming no Lum), and Giga Drain will keep Tangela healthy, as well as taking a sizeable chunk out of Absol:

    0 SpA Tangela Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Absol: 123-145 (45.38 - 53.5%) -- 41.02% chance to 2HKO

    conversely:

    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Absol Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 164-192 (49.24 - 57.65%) -- 97.66% chance to 2HKO

    Unless Absol's carrying Fire Blast, I'd say Tangela stops it every time.
     
  31. MrLumber

    MrLumber Member

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    I'd agree with that, but night slash + super luck is BALLS and would kind of be clearly better vs tangela to be fair (since tangela has status moves and whatnot). Additionally, you'd have to keep tangela in virtually pristine condition in order to deal with it, on top of praying for no hax. I'd agree that Absol can be stopped, but it feels a lot like Sub/SD chomp with sand veil where even counters still have to get lucky in order to stop it (Night Slash has a 25% chance to crit). :/

    Absol aslo has good synergy with a ton of major threats, but so do most things so w/e lol.
     
  32. Carliphe

    Carliphe New Member

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    I think Miltank and Claydol should stay, they are surely great pokes but they wont overcentralize the tier. Ferroseed its way too good for a tier lacking good rapin spinners, (wartortle being the only good one is not enought), Absol is really powerfull with only bulky figthing types countering, Im still not sure about this last one yet but I think it could overcentralize the tier, the same with the two ghosts, they have way too much bulk for a tier lacking of sheer power.
     
  33. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    I'd like Dusclops banned. That thing is just too damn bulky. It can survive a +1 Ghost Gem boosted Shadow Ball from 252 SAtk Modest Drifblim.
     
  34. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    I'd like to second a suspect on Dusclops, it's just way too bulky. It can take an absurd amount of hits, crunch from a LO houndoom being a 3hko is ridiculous for a SE rather powerful hit. Flare blitz from an adamant CB emboar only 2hko's if rocks are up, I like having something that can take any hit from emboar, but that is ridiculous. The rest talk set just doesn't die, I prefer running seismic toss over Night shade, especially since NU has a lot more Normal types than Ghosts, so even taunted it is not deadweight, it can deal damage and Will-O-Wisp on top is just the icing on the cake. I really think this thing should be gone from NU.
     
  35. MrLumber

    MrLumber Member

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    Um you know Drifblim can set up all over Dusclops right? It doesn't even need to invest in health for it to be complete fodder for Dblim. >.>

    I think people are overreacting considering the previous meta was just to spam attacks, now something legitimately bulky is in and everyone is crying fire.

    Edit: 2hko from emboar = 'take any hit' | I'm sure you understand a 2hko means thats a hit it genuinely CAN'T take right?
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2013
  36. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    SubCM Drifblim can, and while that is a good set most people use the AcroBlimp set. Also, if Dusclops is using Night Shade it will still win against Drifblim that lack Shadow Ball. While it may not have reliable recovery, RestTalk is good enough. I know it has issues, but with Dusclops around the only Pokémon that can effectively Rapid Spin is Foresight Wartortle, which is terrible. It sucks away all offensive momentum, and is set up fodder for much of the tier. This makes Spikes stacking teams too prominent, especially with Ferroseed in the tier.
     
  37. Marche Radiuju

    Marche Radiuju crush it casually

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    Clops sucks. It doesn't do anything to several extremely dangerous set-ups. Rest-talk is horrible, I tried it and it's such set-up bait (not to mention unlucky Sleep Talking kills it) it's not even funny. Musharna sets up all over it, Houndoom walls + kills it, among others.

    If you want to beat it, maybe you should be using things that it isn't specifically geared towards walling. Kangaskhan was probably the biggest problem I ever had with it, untouchable behind a sub and then it just picks you off. Pain Split is mediocre recovery, and it's a joke for attacking.

    Ferroseed can't touch anything when you've hit it with Taunt. If you don't have a Taunter, maybe you have a fire type (there's only three amazing attacking ones, not to mention a spinner). Or something that can threaten to set-up against spikespam. It's really not hard to beat this, because none of the ghosts that would block rapid spinning like Taunt either.
     
  38. Carliphe

    Carliphe New Member

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    Houndoom can't wall focus punch or offensive sets, neither can Absol wich can just 2HKO it after a SD, leaving enought HP to set up a sustitute and hit with focus punch , or eventually just burn it.
     
  39. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    How is dusclops set up fodder when it has access to night shade/seismic toss as well as will-o-wisp, dusclops does NOT suck. Musharna can set up on dusclops, but you aren't using dusclops to wall musharna so it's entirely irrelevant. Walls are broken depending on how much they can wall, and in dusclops case, it walls almost everything, which is ridiculous. Dusclops can even wall skunktank since crunch is a 3hko, when you're able to wall something that hits you w/ a SE stab move and has good attack, it's just too bulky. Clops isn't there to wall set up pokes, it's there to wall everything else, and that is just stupid. Using that logic, blissey would be fine in NU because "You can set up on it" There is a difference between this and other pokes that can be set up on, this has access to will o wisp, which cripples physical attackers and gets residual damage on special attackers. Also it has access to seismic toss/night shade, which means it ISN'T set up fodder for most pokes. Thing's like sub CM mesprit, not happening. The only pokes that can set up on it are ones w/ recovery, which aren't that common, or special attackers that hit it for SE damage, which are also not that common.

    And yes, I know 2hko=/= counter, but if you read what I said, it only 2hko's if rocks are up. Pair clops with a spinner and it takes 2 hits from the strongest attacker in the tier, also getting off a rest to let it take another 2 and so on.

    No need for a ferro suspect, as said taunt completely shuts it down and it is weak to fighting which is seen on every single team.
     
  40. WizzleKidd

    WizzleKidd Wizzlin' PO since Feb '11

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    I personally have had no problems with Dusclops yet as I usually always run trick and sometimes taunt.

    I like substitute Drapion, it destroys pretty much all of Duslops' tactics.

    But I do understand it is quite bulkeh IF you don't have a dark/ghost move so won't be surprised if it's suspected... but still ehhh.