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[BW2] September / October Wifi NU Tier / Potential Suspect Discussion

Discussion in 'Gen 5 NU' started by Finchinator, Sep 8, 2013.

  1. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    Sub drapion is alright, but 3 shades/tosses and it dies , fairly sure drapion's crunch (at +0) is also a 3hko so seems like an ok counter to me, but I still stand by dusclops walling too much of the tier to be allowed in it, trick can cripple it, but trick cripples any wall in any tier as does taunt. By no means am I saying that it is the most broken pokemon ever, but it is just too good for NU.
     
  2. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    You should be happy that NU got a new Sawk counter -_- I agree that Dusclops isn't the easiest poke to take down, but passive damage hurts it alot. No leftovers + being weak to all kinds of hazards means Dusclops will lose a lot of health when it comes in, and is forced to Rest very quickly. Making sure it doesn't wake up isn't hard at all. Common Taunters like Skuntank and Misdreavus can disable Dusclops completely, forcing it out, resetting sleep turns and making it take more hazard damage. Dusclops is also an easy picking for SubDisable Haunter and CM Musharna (given that +6 Psychic doesn't even OHKO, but whatever). Then there are powerful special attackers like Samurott and Charizard that consistently 2HKO Dusclops after SR (Zard even has Roost and doesn't have to fear W-o-W). Tricking it a Scarf renders it useless too. Dark-types like Houndoom do very well at killing Clops too.
     
  3. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    Nu got 3 sawk counters in dusclops, dusknoir, and claydol (takes CC's, EQ's, and SE's) I'm glad to have a sawk counter, but dusclops counters too much. WAY too much. Dusclops is also bulky and both ends of the spectrum, and as to the skunktank taunting it in it's sleep, sleep talking a Will-O-Wisp is entirely possible on the switch, also I think you're underestimating dusclops's walling capabilities, houndoom can ohko threaten dusclops if it is special, physical houndoom is walled by the behemoth. I haven't seen sub disable haunter in months and I rarely see CM musharna every since absol dropped. Samurott+Zard may 2hko physically defensive clops, but I'm pretty sure specially defensive dusclops takes 3. I'm still going to stand by my reasoning that dusclops is TOO bulky for NU.
     
  4. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Why do people bring up irrelevant shit like 'Calm Mind Musharna sets up on it' oh i see well if it cant stop 1 pokemon it must not be suspect worthy, not to mention Musharna is the worst example for that because it sets up on like 90% of NU. I've not used nor seen Dusclops too much in NU yet, but i know from playing against it in LU that this thing is near impossible to 2HKO depending on what Defense it's invested in, it has Will o Wisp to cripple most powerful physical attackers, Has pressure to stall out powerful attacks like Fire Blast + Hydro Pump, and seismic Toss can break the subs of most NU pokemon since not too many hit 100 base HP, so is set up fodder to a very limited amount of pokemon. I'll hold off judgement til ive used it/played against it more, but some of the counter arguments are garbage.
     
  5. Marche Radiuju

    Marche Radiuju crush it casually

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    Why do people bring up Dusclops as if it can run Rest/Sleeptalk/Ice Beam/Stoss/Night Shade/Sub/Focus Punch/WoW/Taunt and has perfect prediction? I dunno. It's got dangerous stats, and can be a nuisance if you don't carry anything to deal with it, but four-slot syndrome is one of its biggest problems.

    And if it's irrelevant that one of the most common Pokemon in the tier walls it completely, why is it somehow relevant that it walls other Pokemon? You can't have your cake and eat it too.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2013
  6. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    A wall is broken when it stops the majority of the tier effortlessly, just because things can beat it doesn't mean that it isn't any less broken. Musharna sets up on 70% of the tier, I think musharna is broken itself, but that's another topic entirely. The fact is that dusclops walls too much of the tier. I don't recall anyone saying anything about taunt/ice beam dusclops either o-O No one mentioned more than 1 dusclops set, it happened that he brought up a different set than I did, we never said it can run all of those moves. Just 4 of them is enough to warrant at least a suspect discussion imo.
     
  7. Marche Radiuju

    Marche Radiuju crush it casually

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    How much is 'too much'? Where do you draw the line? And why do you think this is 'effortless', when Clops has no reliable recovery and its most reliable attack is Stoss/Night Shade?

    I assumed Ice Beam because that's the old-timey restalk set, though other variations are probably more viable now. No one mentioned more than one set, but there's no way Dusclops with sub/wow/fpunch/pain split can do anything to the likes of Charizard, Gurdurr, Houndoom (FPunch will OHKO after LO damage, but you're crippled at >20% health after Dark Pulse + sub), any Psychic type, Roselia, Vileplume, Misdreavus, Alomomola, Haunter, et cetera. If you want I can keep listing Pokemon Dusclops doesn't beat but you must get my point by now.

    It's not like Wartortle even has trouble spinning against it. The average Wartortle carries Toxic, which is death for non-restalk clops (which is dangerous...why? It relies on two moveslots and has a 1/3 chance of being useless every turn it's asleep) anyway. It's probably the least-threatening ghost to it.

    If Dusclops were broken, wouldn't it be more than 6% usage? That doesn't sound very centralizing, considering the #1 most used Pokemon in the tier is completely walled by it. Maybe it's not that broken.
     
  8. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    I could find plenty more examples, but one from NU would be gothitelle who was banned despite having 1% usage, don't use usage to determine is something is banworthy or not. You can't use clops usage atm either seeing as it dropped about 10 days ago.. it hasn't even been a full month yet. Also, since you're talking about the #1 most used pokemon in the tier, since when does sawk wall dusclops? :o
     
  9. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    ^ Agreed here. Usage =/= an indication of brokenness. Pokemon are judged broken if they can threaten a lot of the tier without trouble (clops does this, by being near impossible to actually kill, and hard to set up on because of Seismic Toss/Night Shade. Not a lot of NU mons break 404 HP), and also if their existence in the tier cripples the viability of another playstyle.

    Gothorita was banned from NU in spite of being barely ever seen, because it was absolute hell for stall teams. Much as I hate stall, if one playstyle is near inviable because of one pokemon, then that one pokemon is broken.

    I can't say too much from experience, as I haven't laddered at all this month, but by the sounds of it, clops is walking a very similar path to Gothorita.
     
  10. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    We aren't demanding an outright banning of dusclops, as much as I'd like to, we're just saying it deserves a suspect test. Also, back to the "just be glad we have another sawk counter" No. I don't want a broken pokemon in the tier because it stops another almost equally broken pokemon. Dusknoir and claydol dropped w/ clops and both do the same thing, dusclops is just too good for NU and deserves a suspect. I respect other people's opinions, like wizzle who said he could see why we think it's broken. But when you go out and say something like, "Clops isn't broken because we have musharna"..... just what. That's like saying Jynx wasn't broken because we had magmar, or saying Bisharp wasn't broken because we had gurdurr. Clop's is a wall, he isn't supposed to sweep, he is supposed to stop things from sweeping, and he stops too many things to be considered fair in nu. It was hard to take down, even in LU. We can compare clops and seed for instance. Hit clops with a crunch from a decent attacker, aka skunktank, 3hko. Hit ferro with a CC from something like primeape, ohko. See the difference? Both were SE, but clops just doesn't die, and ironically, clop's counters are all scared of will-o-wisp. I'm aware that things can set up on dusclops, but they are limited in number. Special Houndoom and CM Musharna are the only two that come to mind. Musharna lost a bit of it's influence with the drop of absol imo as well, before it could take a hit from skunktank/houndoom, but now it is scared out by absol. I know you can't prepare your team for every threat, but by trying to stop these newer threats that dropped: Ludicolo, Gorebyss, Houndoom, Absol, Dusclops etc, it just is becoming harder and harder. If we keep letting these pokemon drop and stay, it will only unbalance the tier imo. I'll hold off on absol a little for now, since he isn't exactly unstoppable, but Dusclops is the first step we want to fix NU imo. (Also I hate ludicolo :l stop freezing my ferro or roselia/critting my regice pls)
     
  11. Marche Radiuju

    Marche Radiuju crush it casually

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    So what you're saying is that walls are broken when they actually wall things? That's all I keep seeing, besides the infinitely vague 'well it stops too many things'. Clops counters are not all afraid of WoW, I don't know where you decided this; counters to clops aren't all physical attackers, and what about Charizard and friends? Mentioning Primeape and Sawk and the other things Dusclops actually does wall as proof of it being broken is silly; might as well call Blissey broken in OU for walling Latios.

    We aren't discussing whether Musharna is more or less viable because of Absol, nor are we discussing Ferroseed's abilities as a mediocre wall. We're discussing potential counters to Dusclops. If you can prove that Clops is centralizing (by making us pull out obscure mons to counter it and forcing certain playstyles, I believe is the current definition for a 'broken' wall?), sure. But there's no indication of this to me, and it takes a little more than a sweeping statement to prove it. Why call for a suspect discussion if you can't prove a suspect is broken, as well?
     
  12. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Who are Charizards friends? Because Specs Charizard doesn't even 3HKO Sp Def Dusclops, and as I said before any pokemon using powerful moves against Dusclops are going to have their PP drained very quickly, for example you can only use Hydro Pump, Fire Blast and other strong moves 4 times vs Dusclops, whilst it can easily Rest up and stall you out.

    The set I believe we are focusing on is Rest/Sleep Talk/Will o Wisp/Seismic Toss. All other offensive sets are irrelevant as Dusknoir does them way better with it's 100 base Atk stat. The fact is Dusclops is near impenetrable from whichever side of the Defensive Spectrum you decide to invest, and can still wall pokemon on the other side too with it's natural high Defense e.g. Sp Def Dusclops walls Samurott well, but can still wall CB Sawk without investing in Defense. Dark types really need to be named Houndoom or be carrying a Lum Berry to hope to beat Dusclops 1 on 1, as it can easily Will o Wisp and then Rest up and switch out.

    Some Checks I can think of are, Houndoom, Skuantank (Because Taunt), Mandibuzz, Misdreavus and Haunter, and none of these things like to switch into Dusclops, because Doom is 2HKO'd by Seismic Toss after Rocks, Skuntank gets heavily crippled by Will o Wisp, and the others don't like the residual damage that comes with Burn, although the Ghost Types don't care too much. So opposiing Ghost types are really the only solid Switch ins to Dusclops i can think of, things like Lickilicky can, except they can't do anything in return, and will always lose a PP war if it comes to it.

    Again I don't think the majority of the ladder has realised these pokemon are available to them, when you start seeing Ferroseed spike stack teams on ladder with Dusclops to Spinblock, you may change your tune.

    However I do think we should hold off on a suspect for about another week, needs more testing time imo.
     
  13. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    Ehhhh I don't think most people use Dusclops as a special wall. It's most important niche is taking on Sawk, and if you don't run max defense you'll take around 44-50% including Stealth Rock from a CB Earthquake. Sure, it takes two hits from full health, but if you don't Rest after you switch in, your Clops is as good as dead after a second round of SR. Then your opponent switches into his Dark-type (which most teams with Sawk do have, considering Musharna is everywhere) and you're left with a sleeping Dusclops that's forced to switch out. Talking about Mushy, Seismic Toss doesn't even 5HKO factoring lefties, and it can Synchronize the burn and use Heal Bell while setting up all over Dusclops.

    Ofcourse not everybody is using the new NU pokes, which is exactly why a suspect discussion at this point is a bad idea. Ferroseed + Dusclops sounds cute, but Misdreavus has a lot more to offer and will always leave Dusclops in its shadow. Give the metagame a chance to adapt to the new drops, and maybe after a month or so we can see if there are pokes that are overpowered.
     
  14. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    252 Atk Choice Band Sawk Earthquake vs 252 HP/0 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 29.93% - 35.21% (3-4 hits to KO)
    Yeah... even specially defensive can take those EQ's for days :l

    Specs zard doesn't 3hko SpD clops either which is ridiculous.

    I'm not trying to prove that clops is centralizing, it will never be able to centralize any metagame, it is not an offensive poke. Walls are meant to wall things, yes, but they is supposed to be a limit. Look at umbreon in UU, takes any special hit that isn't SE, but there are exceptions from very powerful attackers like chandy. Now look at dusclops, no neutral move can 2hko it, and that is my point. If a wall stopped everything, would you be alright with it in the tier? Dusclops comes a little short of walling everything, but it walls a solid 95% of the tier at least. Name as many counters are you can for dusclops, then name all the counters for Sawk or Houndoom. They were broken enough to get suspect tests, and you'll realise there are more counters for sawk or doom than there are for dusclops :L I can think of about 4 things that beat clops 1v1 assuming both sides are competent players, Houndoom, Musharna, Duosion, NP Missy. I can think of at least 20 of the top of my head that stop Sawk.

    If you actually read my post Marche, you'd see that I talked about 2 different pokes, sawk and primeape had nothing to do w/ Dusclops.

    And as to your comment about Blissey, I can name more counters to blissey in NU than I can to dusclops as well :L I'm willing to wait , but I was merely saying that I think clops needs a suspect test at some point
     
  15. Big Bad Booty Daddy

    Big Bad Booty Daddy Big Poppa Pump

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    I think people should start trying this set:

    Sawk @ Black Belt (Raises Fighting-type moves by 20%) or Expert Belt (Raises Super effective moves by 20%)
    Trait: Mold Breaker
    EV's: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Nature: Adamant (+Atk, -SpA) or Jolly (+Spe, -SpA)
    - Close Combat
    - Taunt
    - Earthquake/Knock Off
    - Ice Punch/Knock Off/Toxic[/HIDE]

    People keep mentioning about all the new Sawk counters in the tier, Dusclops/Claydol, this set is really fun because you're able shut down basically all the defensive Pokemon that are able to shut down Sawk. And it makes it easier, they almost have to rely on double switching to refrain from getting trapped/threatened, and it makes things easier sometimes.

    These new changes are pretty fun, I think everybody underestimates the fact that Claydol resists EdgeQuake combo, and Claydol also absorbs Electric-type attacks, so it's very easy to fit on a team. Also Ground typing also makes it easier to scare away all the Pursuit trappers, giving them a consequence if they use Pursuit. It's not JUST a spinner, it can be a glue of the team. Don't just focus on the fact that it gets Rapid Spin, look at what it can do for team synergy.

    Ferroseed is nice, HP Fire Samurott might be cute now, but Taunt is generally superior. Spikes is obviously important, but I just see it as set-up fodder, it's really annoying but the lack of attacking power is very off-setting. Great Pokemon, just support it with a phazer or w.e, again, Ferroseed offers nice synergy.

    Dusclops is dope, should be interesting. Access to Earthquake is kinda nice for trappers.

    Everything else is kinda meh, dont giva fuk
     
  16. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    You didn't factor in Adamant nature, which is standard on Sawk :[

    252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 93-110 (32.74 - 38.73%) -- 99.51% chance to 3HKO

    After SR it is left at 50% health. If it was for example Musharna, it'd take the same amount of damage but has Lefties and reliable recovery in Moonlight. Dusclops is forced to Rest in the same scenario unless it wants to switch out and come back in at 40%ish health. That's a pretty bad scenario for the Dusclops user tbh.

    Anyway why would you run specially defensive Clops again? Especially when it's begging to be paired up with Lickilicky, who can provide Wish and Cleric support and take special hits for days, while Clops takes all physical hits. I'm also going to stress again that hazards kill Dusclops effectiveness so much, and with Ferroseed in the tier + lack of good spinners it's very easy to get them up.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2013
  17. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Dusclops isnt forced to rest in that scenario, it can Just Will o Wisp then rest, Dusclops is still a fantastic Check to Sawk without investing anything in Defense, and Sp Def is better imo because it's typing means that Fighting types and Normal types, which are almost always Physical attackers are walled anyway, allowing it to take hits from numerous Special attackers in the Tier.
     
  18. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    This was something that grabbed my attention.

    You can't call Zard a Dusclops counter in any way, as far as I'm concerned. If it's Specs, it only 3HKOes Specially Defensive sets, and Dusclops eats all of its Fire Blast PP in the meantime with Pressure. It'll also likely take SR damage on the way in, as spinning would be damn hard with a Dusclops around. Wartortle might be able to do it, but Wartortle's just setup fodder for anything remotely bulky. It's worth noting that Charizard is 2HKOed by Seismic Toss after SR damage (obviously). Even then:

    252 SpA Choice Specs Blaze Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 207-244 (72.88 - 85.91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    When what's one of THE most powerful attacks in the tier can't kill it, how do you see it as not broken? Note that this is physically defensive, btw (just for perspective)

    Sure, Zard can use Roost to alleviate SR damage with Roost, but if it's Roosting, it can't be holding the Specs, and if it isn't holding the Specs, it has no damn chance of killing Dusclops without sun support or something. It would have to run a very specialised set just to try and beat one pokemon, and this is with luck on its side:

    252 SpA Life Orb Solar Power Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Dusclops in sun: 269-317 (94.71 - 111.61%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO

    Sunny Day, Roost, Fire Blast, SolarBeam? Could work I guess...
     
  19. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 121-142 (42.6 - 50%) -- 89.45% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    And if you're really going to bring PP into the argument:

    252 SpA Life Orb Charizard Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 95-113 (33.45 - 39.78%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    What can Dusclops do to hit Charizard again? Please don't bring up arguments like Seismic Toss 2HKO'ing after SR, lmao. Zard carries Roost.
     
  20. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Did you even read the post? I noted that Zard carries Roost. I'm saying that if it's Specs, it can't Roost, and can't kill Clops before Clops can kill it, and if it does carry Roost, it lacks the power to maintain pressure. Clops can simply spam Seismic Toss and keep it low on HP. The one time it dares attack it's dead.
     
  21. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    you mean aside from Houndoom, Musharna, Throh, Drapion, Gurdurr, Torkoal, Exeggutor, Arbok, Swellow, Duosion, Hariyama, Camerupt, Floatzel, Klinklang, Absol, Skuntank, Zangoose, Kadabra, Misdreavus, Mandibuzz, Lickilicky, etc etc having easy set up opportunities on it? I dunno. Not much I can think of.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2013
  22. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    • Nasty Plot Houndoom is never seen, and Doom is 2HKO'd after rocks by Seismic Toss so doesn't have a chance to set it up.
    • Drapion gets Will o Wisped and can't OHKO with Crunch at +2, only Sub SD is a decent Check, but again doen't like switching in.
    • Gurdurr lol, Seismic Toss and Burn will wear it down super quick since it can't recover health with Drain Punch, and will be going first with Payback, so won't be doing that much damage.
    • I assume you mean Shell Smash Torkoal, which is 2HKO'd after rocks, and is never seen, and can't OHKO with a +2 Fire Blast.
    • Exeggutor's Sub Seed set can beat it i guess, however you could easily PP Stall it out of its attacking move with Rest.
    • Coil Rest Arbok isn't a thing you commonly see, Shed Skin w/o rest won't win because Gunk Shot is resisted, and you are 3HKO'd with Seismic Toss.
    • Swellow lol, doesn't set up and just kills itself with Brave Bird recoil and Burn/Toxic damage.
    • Hariyama I guess a Sub Bulk Up set could set up on it, but again its never seen and even at +3 i doubt Payback would do much of anything.
    • Camerupt doesn't set up, can't 2HKO with LO Fire Blast.
    • Floatzel can set up Bulk Ups? still gets 3HKO'd by Seismic Toss.
    • Klinklang gets it's Subs broken by Seismic Toss, can be burnt.
    • Absol can be burnt, doesn't want to switch and can only set up in it's face if it has Lum, but obviously is a good Check since it has a super effective STAB attack to use vs Dusclops.
    • Skuntank again can't Switch in, is 3HKO'd by Seismic, doesn't set up but is a good Check because Taunt.
    • Zangoose doesn't 2HKO with Night Slash and if it tries to set up an SD it is 2HKO'd after Toxic Damage.
    • Kadabra with LO wins 1 on 1 if it carries Shadow Ball, but doesn't set up.
    • Mandibuzz doesn't set up apart from a Nasty Plot set i guess, but again it's never seen and a stall breaking set is more valuable.
    • Throh is usually Mono Attacking with Rest Talk, and if it is Resto Chesto with Payback you can stall it out of Paybacks/force it to Rest again and switch to a Check/Counter.

    So basically some Dark types if they're carrying Lum/Sub, Misdreavus, and a few bulkier mons with Recovery, and pokes that can set up 101 Subs can set up on Dusclops, except you're not using Dusclops to beat Dark, Ghost or even Psychic types, you're using it to wall everything else, and to block spin for an entire match.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2013
  23. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    Afro Cash you seem to be confusing "takes some passive damage" as "can't set up". The fact of the matter is Guts mons take passive damage to set up/sweep, so saying they do so doesn't cancel out the fact that they are setting up potentially for a sweep. You also presume it is using Seismic Toss and not Night Shade, which isn't a guarantee.

    Nasty Plot Houndoom doesn't matter if it's uncommon because LO 2hkos Dusclops anyway, Drapion should -only- be Sub SD or Taunt SD, Gurdurr guts mon as above, I see Shell Smash Torkoal a lot, Exeggutor is essentially status immune, Coil Rest Arbok is either gonna set up or be switched out on, Swellow guts mon as above and gets free switch ins and beats it, Hariyama Guts mon as above, RP Camerupt is a boss, Floatzel is a boss and can also Switcheroo that eviolite away if choice and getting +1 with a BU really helps it wreck offensive/defensive teams, Klinklang is a mind game that's easier for it to win than Dusclops, Lum Absol is legit and boom or Taunt, Skuntank is often lum and/or taunt, Zangoose has the toughest job in this list unless Dusclops has Night Shade, Kadabra is capable of setting up or just Encoring Dusclops to oblivion, NP Mandibuzz is legit and stall breaking is also something dusclops is weak to, Throh is a hard counter to Dusclops with +101 HP subs and multiple options to set up with and guts mon as above.

    And the list I made could really go on. Just because something might take recoil or passive damage doesn't mean it's not essentially a hard check to Dusclops as well as Dusclops losing its team a huge amount of momentum.
     
  24. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    I'm not confusing anything, a lot of the pokemon you stated can't set up, and a few of the ones you did were running obscure sets you'd only use to beat Dusclops, when they're better off using other sets.

    Yeah Doom 2HKO's Physically Defensive Dusclops with LO Dark Pulse, but it gets 2HKO'd after Rocks by Seismic Toss, so loses 1 on 1 if it switches in, Gurdurr DOES NOT beat Dusclops, Burn and Seismic Toss damage will wear it down extremely quickly, as it lacks Leftovers and can't recover health with Drain Punch, Lum Egg is a decent Check but can't hurt Dusclops if it's Sp Def, Swellow doesn't win because Brave Bird is a 3HKO and it will kill itself off with Recoil + Burn/Toxic, and take a lot from Seismic Toss. Coil Rest Arbok isn't a thing because it either has to give up coverage or priority or coverage, and there are too many Ground tyes running around for it to make an impact. Hariyama loses as well because Payback doesn't do enough and it's worn down by Toxic/Burn/Seismic Toss, SS Torkoal may be common to you, still doesn't OHKO and is 2HKO'd after Rocks, Camerupt doesn't 2HKO, Tricking Dusclops is effective with Floatzel, and is a decent mon against it because Water Veil, but if you try setting up in fronmt of Dusclops you will lose. Klinklang doesn't beat Dusclops because it can be burnt, and if not it wastes HP with Substistues and Seismic Toss, and can't 2HKO with Gear Grind at +1.

    If your list can go on beyond Dark and Ghost types and the occasioanl 101 subs poke please do, because Guts pokemon do not beat Dusclops, nor the majority of set up sweepers, and Dusclops will be used on Stall teams, where momentum isn't of concern, but spin blocking is.

    I know that Tricking/Taunting Dusclops is also an effective way of Checking it, and I'm not saying i think it's broken, just that a lot of the pokemon on your list are in fact not able to set up on and beat Dusclops.
     
  25. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    Afro took care of it tbh, but I'll give my thoughts as well
    Houndoom-2hko'd after rocks, and as afro said, special set is almost never seen tbh
    Musharna- CM set seems to have lost a bit of popularity with the drop of absol
    Throh- Dusclops can force throh to sleep twice (assuming it has a chesto berry) and allow you to switch to something more capable of dealing w/ it, something w/ roar or a powerful special attacker/mon w/ SE hit
    Drapion- Are you really bringing this thing in? WoW scares you and you get 3hko'd by Stoss
    Gurdurr- lol. Dusclops is slower so payback does diddly and it can 4hko w/ Stoss
    Torkoal- Really? I mean, really? Do I even need to say anything here
    Exeggutor- Assuming you mean the sub seed set which gets out stalled by rest
    Arbok- burn if offensive, 3hko w/ Stoss if defensive Arbok can't touch clops
    Swellow- wtf is this going to set up, a work up? lmao, facade can't touch it and BB is a 3hko, + recoil and stoss, rocks and poison. Yeah..
    Harriyama- This is going to set up what exactly? Just gets killed since it's faster than clops so payback does nothing
    Camerupt- 3hko'd by Stoss, what are you going to set up with this, a rock polish?
    Floatzel- 3hko, does minimal damage
    Absol- Doesn't want to be burned, lum set wins usually
    Skunktank- Burn+Crunch is a 3hko since clops is stupid bulky
    Zangoose- Burn+Stoss, Nslash is a 3hko
    Kadabra- 3hko'd by stoss, shadow ball is prob a 2hko on physically defensive and 3hko on specially, this isn't bad either
    Missy- Stoss clops can't touch it except to burn and it can set up CM's or NP's, good counter
    Licky - PP stall war, clops wins w/ pressure + rest
    Mandi- Mandi is an effective counter, it may take a burn on the switch, but taunt + toxic shuts it down.
    Klingklang- ....This thing doesn't get up on clops. Stoss breaks sub, no recovery, burn, etc.

    4 of those actually worked, some things can beat clops, I'm not saying that it is unstoppable. What I am saying is that it is unhealthy of the NU metagame to have something this bulky in it. You can't honestly look at clops and say, that thing has flaws (outside of poor hp, but is complimented by enormous defenses). He has Will-o-Wisp, Stoss, stuff other pokes like alom would kill for. He also gets a plethora of other great moves as well such as boltbeam, EQ, Taunt, pain split, curse, etc. He's just too damn good for NU. Don't get me wrong, I love having more things to stop Sawk, but I want fair pokemon in the tier, I don't want something that walls 95% of the tier by itself and can be paired up with another poke to wall the other 5%.
     
  26. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    And if you want something to stop Sawk that isn't broken, defensive Dusknoir can do that just fine. It is bulky but not borderline unbreakable like Dusclops. I would like to see a suspect discussion of it - it's like Cresselia in LU in that while it does have Pokémon that can beat it it just walls way too much.
     
  27. Um Hello?

    Um Hello? Member

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    I feel like Dusclops should get a Suspect purely because that's what this thread is becoming anyway, lol o.o


    I think a suspect is needed anyway, for most of the pro-suspect reasons above.
     
  28. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    Meh. This whole argument is just theorymon imo. I see people assume that Dusclops can wall 95% of the metagame just because it has Rest, but forget to realize that Dusclops has to stay asleep for two turns. Yes it can still use Seismic Toss and W-o-W through Sleep Talk, but it can't heal anymore. This means you can force it out before it wakes up, and it will die from repeated switch ins + hazards damage very quickly. Pokes like Houndoom, Misdreavus, Mandibuzz and Skuntank easily force it out for example. Licklicky can easily come in on a sleeping Dusclops and Dragon Tail it out not even fearing W-o-W thanks to Heal Bell, and with SR + a layer of Spikes Dusclops will die very quickly. Just saying there's so many ways around it, try preparing for it like everyone else then judge.
     
  29. Big Bad Booty Daddy

    Big Bad Booty Daddy Big Poppa Pump

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    This is for everybody who has been talking about Dusclops, so... well, everyone!

    We plan on suspecting Houndoom towards the final days of September/Beginning of October, people have complained a large amount about how the tier is stale the last few months and the only big addition that's contributed to this is Houndoom so we felt that's a strong enough base for a suspect.

    If people can give us reasons why Dusclops should be suspected, then please do! Although it hasn't been in the tier for more than a month and I feel people should use it a bit more before taking one side of an argument, because the theorymon is strong.

    252 SpA Choice Specs Charizard Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 109-130 (38.38 - 45.77%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    Nice calc buddy
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2013
  30. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Nice reading buddy, although I did mean to say can only 3HKO.
     
  31. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    That isn't what made Cresselia broken. Cress was broken because it could actually do something back when it was "walling". The Calm Mind set was the overwhelmingly broken set which with everyone is familiar. The pure walling or Psycho Shift sets were only slightly better than gimmicks. Seriously, people need to stop comparing things to Cresselia. Cresselia had so many more things going for it than Dusclops, and is a completely different situation.
     
  32. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Another Houndoom suspect? O.o

    Personally I feel Houndoom wants to stay with all the new drops that it checks. Clops, Noir, Ferroseed AND Claydol all fear Houndoom to some point, and even Miltank doesn't wanna take boosted Dark Pulses. If anything I'd say Doom is a better fit for the tier now with all these drops.
     
  33. Um Hello?

    Um Hello? Member

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    So now instead of threatening X number of Pokemon it threatens X + Y (Geddit?) Pokemon so it fits the tier better? o.o

    I still feel Sawk is more of a problem then Doom, but at least one of them is getting a second suspect!
     
  34. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    Not sure how I feel about a Houndoom suspect, seeing as it's one of the few pokes that stops dusclops :c
    Houndoom also is nice seeing as it counters pretty much all the drops if it's a special houndoom.

    Sawk by itself has counters

    Houndoom by itself has counters

    Put them together and you have a formula for destruction :c I'd rather see a Sawk second suspect as well, but meh. (I still want to see a clops one more!)

    huehuehue
     
  35. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    I enjoy how da raikage completely ignored my post above to say the same things Afro cash had said but worse. I'm not going to say the same things over again. Read my shit.

    Dusclops is fine in NU. "Being difficult to 2hko" doesn't make something broken. Prepare for it more. There are a really stupidly huge amount of ways to prepare for it in the list of pokemon i made alone, let alone the rest.
     
  36. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    I apologize, I did not see it, did not mean to ignore you by any means.

    I'm by no means saying dusclops cannot be stopped; However, many of the mons you posted are extremely obscene and see hardly any use, and plenty of them do not counter or check dusclops at all.

    Defensive rest Arbok is 3hko'd by Stoss I believe, and cannot touch dusclops, even at +6 (it then proceeds to get pp stalled easily due to pressure) Gurdurr outspeeds clops, so 4 stoss's and it dies. Gurdurr will be able to get a bit of damage off clops, by saying it will kill clops is an extreme overstatement. Floatzel can indeed run switcheroo with CB or flame orb to cripple clops, but floatzel is rarely seen at all. As to your "Skunktank is often lum" (http://stats.pokemon-online.eu/Wifi NU/435.html) <- using that, 20% of skunks are lum. 25% =/= often. (I personally do run lum skunk and it does indeed often beat clops, it is a good counter) I've never seen smash torkoal and Swellow 3hko's clops, taking massive recoil due to burn+recoil every turn. Harriyama gets guts, but only has payback to hit it (if it even carries it) and is faster so payback for minimal damage. Mandibuzz beats clops. Kadabra can beat clops if it's played well, switching into a rest/sleep talk/will-o and encoring, good underused mon imo. Klingklang isn't a mindgame at all... just spam Stoss 4 times, if they sub it makes your job even easier..Lum taunt can beat clops, (switch into will o, taunt on will o, SD taking 100, crunch taking 100, crunch to kill.) If they just go for 3 Stosses, you'll only get off about 65%, but you can then deal with clops tbh.

    To recap:
    Floatzel - Win's if carries Switcheroo
    Mandibuzz- Wins because awesome
    Skunk- wins if lum/played well and switches into rest/stoss
    Kadabra- Wins if played by an average player tbh, good counter
    Throh- Decent counter, sub means nothing since running sub=not running recovery, can be played around however, forcing a rest and then switching out
    Zangoose- Will die to Stoss, but it will get off 2 night slashes bring clops down to like 25%, a much easier range to finish it off.
    Out of all of those, the only reliable ones are Skunk, Mandibuzz (will be burned but heal bell support is usually used w/ mandi), Lum skunk, Switcheroo floatzel.
    Throh is forced to rest since clops takes hits and deals out dmg w/ stoss, allowing you to switch to a powerful special attacker or psychic type or poke w/ roar/phasing moves
    Zangoose is forced to be fodder
    Floatzel doesn't always carry switcheroo (Aqua jet waterfall crunch ice punch)

    Dusclops has counters, yes. But so does pretty much every poke, doesn't make it any less broken. If I was to use clops and you switched a floatzel into me, do you thing I'd stay in? If you switched kadabra into my will o wisp, you think I'll risk the encore? No. The only really reliable ones out of those are mandibuzz and Skunktank (Kadabra can run cm as well so still a good counter) I just think it should be suspected, it's too bulky
     
  37. Big Bad Booty Daddy

    Big Bad Booty Daddy Big Poppa Pump

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    Refrain from insulting users please! Finch and I aren't isn't scared to infract anybody.

    And yeah like I said, wait a while and let Dusclops fully blend in to the NU tier. Then you'll all be able to make all your arguments, but until then, refrain from theorymon.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 20, 2013
  38. MrLumber

    MrLumber Member

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    Since people seem to be unwilling to budge either way on dusclops, I'll just post the counters I've been able to find.

    All Mandibuzz, lum/rest exeggutor, curse talk... most things, cm mush, lickilicky (sort of, prevents the need to worry about wow), cm dblim, emboar (if played not shit like), scraggy, lum absol, lum crawdaunt, zard w/ roost, np houndoom, band banette, knock off.

    I'm sure I'm missing a few, but those are all genuine counters to any standard dusclops. Keep in mind that any half practical stall breakers can be considered checks at worst.
     
  39. Sakuya Izayoi

    Sakuya Izayoi love to hate

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    I'm just going to say that Dusclops is extremely weak to entry hazards, and seeing the high amount of Taunt users can actually shut it down can cause it to only be able to use Seismic Toss. Especially with the introduction of ferroseed in NU, this has caused an increase in spike stacking teams, which are really a pain for Dusclops to handle due to the lack of reliable recovery and no leftovers. Despite Dusclops ability to tank and stomach hits very well, it doesn't mean it is broken by any means. I agree fully with what Aurist said.
     
  40. Daybreak

    Daybreak can't touch this

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    I am just gonna throw in that this discussion about dusclops, people when talking about it always just assume that it will always be at 100%health and thus cannot be 2hko'd at any point in time.
    252 SpA Choice Specs Charizard Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 109-130 (38.38 - 45.77%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    OH NO dusclops cannot be 2hko'd at 100% health!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    The point i am trying to make is that dusclops is 2hko'd if it drops down to a certain percent of health. Hazard stacking is prevalent in NU, dusclops has to either rely on rest or pain split for health, both of which are very unreliable, and dusclops is not a big damage dealer as well. It cannot even use leftovers because eviolite is the superior item for a preevolution pokemon. It will eventually get worn down and can get 2hko'd after like 2 switch ins.

    Dusclops is very similar to musharna, being able to wall a ton of the tier and having a few set counters. However musharna has been agreed on that it is not broken despite having a very threatening calm mind set, access to leftovers with about the same bulk, reliable recovery, and having a respectable special attacking set. Dusclops does not have these advantage which is devestating for a wall with no recovery or attack stat that is usable. IMO i find dusclops underwhelming to musharna and thus i feel dusclops should stay in nu.

    I do however agree that dusclops makes rapid spinning even harder in nu and spinners have a tough time getting past dusclops.