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[BW2] September / October Wifi NU Tier / Potential Suspect Discussion

Discussion in 'Gen 5 NU' started by Finchinator, Sep 8, 2013.

  1. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    While I don't feel I was straight insulting, I definitely was being overly harsh to da raikage, so sorry dude. I'm just irritated at all this "Dusclops is broken" stuff when 1/3 of the tier checks/counters it, and a further 1/3 is a shaky but reasonable check. It's not even -that good- tbh and I think people will realise that soon. People were scared of it in LU too, and look where it is now.

    The only reason I could see it being suspected would be if it just absolutely 100% stopped all rapid spinning and shat up the tier that way. That could be legit. I won't comment on its effectiveness at that because I haven't seen it used for that enough so much as walling.
     
  2. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    It's fine, I'm biased towards clops obviously, but I think the statement 1/3 of the tier countering clops is a huge overstatement. Clops can be dealt with, but if you play it right on a stall team, it won't be dying. Some things clops isn't supposed to stop, for instance, you won't be sending a physically defensive clops into a specs zard, that's not a good idea lol. Something does not have to be incredibly broken to be suspected, I feel clops makes stall too strong. Just my opinion.
     
  3. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    That's the thing, I think people have seen Dusclops / Ferroseed / whatever take Stall from an OK strategy to a Good one and are mistaking it for "broken" because they have to adjust. The solution isn't to pack the things that beat 4 or 5 out of 6 of Stall teams by 2hkoing them any more, it's time to, instead of relying mainly on wallbreakers as with the previous stage of the tier, start packing stallbreakers. Something NU has a very healthy amount of.
     
  4. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    Well, clearly stallbreakers break stall, but what exactly makes a poke a stall breaker. Things like golbat obv, but what classifies something as a stallbreaker (curious) Is it access to taunt+recovery?
     
  5. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    it's usually Taunt + Status or something approximate to that, and usually being able to 2hko 1 or 2 things in a stall team. Offering other utility (like preventing a spin or absorbing toxic spikes) is a bonus. Trick/Switcheroo also helps break stall. Misdreavus and Skuntank would be a good example of common pokemon that can be stallbreakers in NU.
     
  6. Daybreak

    Daybreak can't touch this

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    too add on using moves like toxic spikes of your own and magic coat users are able to stop stall very nicely. I have faced someone who used 4 taunt users and 2 magic coat users, lets just say i did not get hazards up for a LONG time.
     
  7. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    I'll give you some examples of Stallbreaking sets:

    Mandibuzz
    Taunt
    Toxic
    Roost
    Foul Play

    Dusosion
    Calm Mind
    Psychic/Psyshock
    Signal Beam
    Recover
     
  8. Carliphe

    Carliphe New Member

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    I think we haven't talked enought of another very powerfull drop, Absol. With an amazing 130 base attack, a good priority move like sucker punch and a usefull hability like super luck this thing is a real threat. Lets focus in this moveset wich in my opinion is the best option for Absol.


    Absol @ Lum Berry Lv. 100 -- (Super luck)
    Nature: Adamant - EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Swords Dance
    Psycho Cut
    Sucker Punch
    Night Slash

    Setting SD is not hard considering that psychic and ghost types are quite popular in NU, plus it doesn't fear status moves due to lum berry. After a SD Absol is almost unstoppable, not even bulky fighting types like throh and gurdurr can stop it.

    +2 252+ Atk Absol Psycho Cut vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 68.44 - 80.74% -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 252+ Atk Absol Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 29.14 - 34.49%

    252+ Atk Gurdurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Absol: 68.63 - 81.91%

    Gurdurr can't kill Absol with a mach punch even after SR and it gets easily wrecked by a psycho cut and a later sucker punch

    +2 252+ Atk Absol Psycho Cut vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Throh: 86.03 - 101.35% -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Even Throh is not completely safe of Absol, having a 50% chance to die after SD.

    This means is almost impossible to counter a +2 Absol, only fast fighting types like Sawk or Primeape can resist a sucker succesfully and then kill it with CC. The best way to deal with Absol is revenge killing it with a fighting type.

    Another problem with this drop is that we have enough of the Psychic/Fighting/Dark core that overcentralize the tier, seriously, we should try to balance the tier and eventually allow others strategies to be viable because I feel you can't have a really competitive team without using this core.
     
  9. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    That is a fair observation - however, what would you suggest? If Absol is banned, Houndoom, Drapion and Skuntank will still be there. If Sawk is banned, there is still Gurdurr, Emboar and Hariyama. If Musharna was banned, Mesprit, Gardevoir and Exeggutor will still be there. You'd have to ban about 20 Pokémon to nerf the Psychic/Dark/Fighting core, and that is neither practical nor fair.
     
  10. Um Hello?

    Um Hello? Member

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    The Problem with Absol vs Gurdurr is Drain Punch is going to be the move they click, the Psychic move isn't actually that common on Absol anyway, often running dual-STAB.

    0 Atk Gurdurr Drain Punch vs 0 HP/0 Def Absol: 93.73% - 111.44%
    62.5% chance to OHKO

    Note, that's uninvested at all, and with the DP recovery Gurdurr is at a decent amount of HP.

    Absol is a threat, but I don't think it's broken or requiring of a suspect.


    Whilst PFD is incredibly common - and good, which is why it's common - it is perfectly possible and viable to run a team without that core, I myself have peaked #1 with a team not using the Fighting/Dark/Psychic core, (I admit I didn't have a Fighting type but did have a Psychic + Dark type, but still!)

    I do agree to some extent, something needs to be done to change the meta, the problem is determining what exactly that is, if you were to ask everyone who regularly plays NU, you would get many different answers as to the solution.



    EDIT: Apologies, I misread your set, I thought it was
    SD/Superpower/SPunch/PCut, that is what I was referring to when I said dual stab.
     
  11. Carliphe

    Carliphe New Member

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    Sorry, I was kind of sleepy and confuse drain punch with mach punch, so yeah, Gurdurr is still a counter to SD Absol if you go for drain punch but any other situation (overpredict a switch and try to bulk up or go for a rapid dead and use mach punch), ends with Gurdurr dead, the same happens in you try to sponge a +2 absol attack switching into Gurdurr.

    I don't think that banning the entire core would be neccesary, neither practical, but banning sawk and asbol for example would be a big step forward.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2013
  12. MrLumber

    MrLumber Member

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    Yay, the dusclops discussion is finally over (hopefully)!

    I second absol getting suspected, mostly because of Super Luck + Night Slash being an extremely toxic interaction. At +2 a night slash crit OHKOs nearly all of the major walls, with super power OHKOing all of the others. Absols only true counters are Gurdurr, Mandibuzz (who got massive buffs with these drops btw), and Physically Defensive Drapion, otherwise you're running a 25% of simply being swept, or at the very least losing a mon (a few speedier things [read sawk] can take a +2 Sucker Punch, although sawk still has a chance to be OHKOed after rocks). The only thing keeping it in check is its lack of opportunities to set up, due to its frailty and reliance on LO to get many OHKOs.

    Despite this, Absol still can act as one of the best revenge killers in the game, forcing things to stay in for fear of letting it get to +2 on the switch. I would dare say the puruit trapper set is genuinely worthless, as there is literally never a time when you should be switching out on Absol. With these elements combined, I vote to have Absol suspected.
     
  13. Carliphe

    Carliphe New Member

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    I wouldn't say that. Absol can easily set up against Mesprit, Misdreavus, Musharna, and others ghost and physic types, and it doesn't fear status for common walls due to lum berry, which is pretty popular on Absol, (and imo the best object you could use in this killing machine).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 22, 2013
  14. Sakuya Izayoi

    Sakuya Izayoi love to hate

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    If I may add, Absol has 0 counters in the tier, only checks. Absol does have the tools to break down pretty much every pokemon such that they can't switch in bar Alomomola (unless it packs the rare thunderbolt.) Pretty much the entire tier is 2hkoed by the respective move, and Absol does have Sucker Punch/Night Slash/Superpower/Pscho Cut/Fire Blast/SD which it can abuse of. Furthermore, it even has a respectable base 130 attack which can pretty much shit on the entire tier. It also has different counters for different sets, so a counter for one set could fall to the other set. Because it has 0 full-proof counters that can counter all of Absol's sets, I would like it to have a suspect.
     
  15. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    Yeah,
    , erm I mean the suspect is over, Absol really needs a suspect. His only real counter would be Mandibuzz, he has coverage moves for everything else. Psycho cut for Gurdurr/fighting types. Fire blast for Tangela, he could even carry t-bolt for Alom which I've seen once, but it's a really bad set... He has night slash for anything that doesn't resist it, and even things that do. You don't want your Primeape taking a +2 LO sucker punch, unless you're at 100% and even then I think it can ohko o-O. 130 base attack isn't respectable, it's insanely high, it's higher than Sawk and Emboar. I'm going to have to agree and say this (Dog? No? Well I'm going to be calling him a dog) dog needs to go.
     
  16. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    Yeah because Absol can run Swords Dance, Sucker Punch, Night Slash, Psycho Cut, Fire Blast and Thunderbolt all at the same time. Alomomola is a full stop to any set lacking Swords Dance, and even then it can tank a +2 hit to get off a Toxic and put Absol on a timer. Don't even mention Lum Berry as Absol can't even 2HKO standard Momo at +2, so you can just double Toxic. Tangela beats any set lacking Fire Blast. Fighting-types in general beat Absol 1 vs 1 unless it carries the very rare Psycho Cut. Absol has plenty of checks and counters, and it's subpar speed leaves a lot to be desired. Even Sucker Punch can't save you against Substitute users. Did I mention that Absol is incredibly frail?
     
  17. ZoroDark

    ZoroDark i know everything

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    Like which counters? Standard Alomomola takes about 70% from a +2 LO Night Slash and can't do much back except using Toxic. Standard Defensive Mandibuzz has a 30% chance to be OHKO'd by a +2 Superpower after after Stealth Rock. As far as "fighting-types beat it 1 on 1 goes", there's a couple of calcs on the bottom of my post that prove that claim isn't even remotely true. It can drop SD for Fire Blast to become more of a team supporter by getting rid of Tangela, but then again Tangela's usage has dropped a lot because it now has to compete with Ferroseed for a team spot. So yeah, if it gets a Swords Dance (which isn't that hard because it forces out so many mons), there's very few checks left and only two counters, one of which has a 25% to lose because of Super Luck. This gives it a 25% chance to crit using Night Slash. In practice, this means your Alomomola will be blasted through as often as Will-O-Wisp misses (and yes, that's quite often). Definitely deserves to be a suspect imo.

    Relevant calcs:
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Absol Sucker Punch vs. 104 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 309-367 (62.17 - 73.84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Absol Superpower vs. 248 HP / 148+ Def Mandibuzz: 283-334 (66.9 - 78.95%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Absol Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Sawk: 237-278 (81.16 - 95.2%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Absol Superpower vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Emboar: 530-624 (126.19 - 148.57%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Absol Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Primeape: 281-330 (103.69 - 121.77%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Absol Superpower vs. 0 HP / 172 Def Hariyama: 442-521 (103.03 - 121.44%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Absol Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 285-335 (76.2 - 89.57%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
     
  18. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    Because Absol can get a free SD in a 1 vs 1 situation against pokes like Sawk and Gurdurr.

    If you want counters to the SD set here's a few. Weezing, Gurdurr, Torkoal, Vileplume, Quagsire and Tangela. Can't switch in repeatedly on +2 hits, but considering Absol won't be coming in ten times per match and setting up a SD everytime I still consider all of them counters. There's many checks. SubDisable Haunter. Sub Charizard. Klinklang can Sub and kill you after Life Orb damage and def drop from Superpower with Gear Grind. Sawk. Houndoom. Drapion. Emboar. Kadabra. Mandibuzz. Zangoose. SubCM/Trick Gardevoir, Trick Rotom-S, Trick Mesprit, Sub Tauros and so on. Those are only checks to the SD set, and that is if it gets a free SD. More often than not it will have to take a hit leaving it at the mercy of being revenge killed by the likes of Kangaskhan. Absol has more than enough exploitable weaknesses to stay NU despite its strengths.

    If you really believe that Absol has such a significant impact on the NU metagame at this stage - only one month after it dropped - to deserve to be suspected, then you need to play in this metagame more. Then you'd know that Absol is the last thing to be suspect worthy.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 7, 2013
  19. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    First off, I just infracted a user (who shall remaind nameless) due to poor posting, which I nearly deemed trolling (which is a much heavier offense.) I'd like to use this oppurtunity to remind everyone to be civil in their posts and refrain from insulting, trolling, or being condescending to any other user in their posts. Here are the Posting Guidelines for anyone who isn't sure what's accepteable to post (if you're in doubt, just take the questionable parts out of your post. Rather safe than sorry.)

    Secondly, I'd like to address some of the latest posts in this thread. Lets all remember that although a pokemon can have a large movepool, like Absol does, it doesn't mean that said pokemon can always exploit their movepool. Everything can only run one item and four moves. Absol won't ever be running Thunderbolt on relevant sets, while it'll only be using Night Slash when it elects to lose a crucial coverage move. Also, Swords Dance and Fire Blast are typically interchangeable which leaves it vulnerable to many threats either way (not to mention that without Life Orb it'll likely miss out on OHKOs with boosted attacks, while without Lum Berry it can get statused easily.)
     
  20. meeps

    meeps Well-Known Member

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    absol is a pretty tough poke to perfectly counter, but it is no means unhealthy/broken for the tier.

    i mean for one, as it has been mentioned multiple times absol and all other pokes can only run 4 moves, have one item, and 508 evs. absol cant run night slash sucker punch fire blast psycho cut tbolt superpower sd on one set. and missing one of these moves allows absol to be checked by many, just some examples

    night slash / superpower / sucker punch / sd: checked by fighting-types, mandibuzz, tangela, alomomola, etc

    fire blast over sd: checked by everything above but tangela, also checked by torkoal, drapion

    psycho cut over night slash or sucker punch : lacking night slash allows cm sets to set up on absol, and multiple previous pokes will still also check, even some of the fighting-types may still outspeed and gurdurr can do significant damage, so running psycho cut is hardly useful for fighting-types, may help hit weezing and vileplume tho but still psycho cut isnt really necessary

    tbolt should not be run on absol

    period

    something else i havent noticed to be mentioned yet (i think)

    absol has subpar speed and bulk, which allows it to be revenge killed with more ease. lack of bulk and it cant switch-in to anything successfully. could go in more detail with that, but absol is neither broken nor should it be suspected

    could go further, but yeah, im lazy
     
  21. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    I think I overestimated Absol a good bit, but I feel like others are underestimating it at as well. Absol has subpar speed, I fully agree with this. His speed is bad in terms of sweeping, being I believe somewhere between 60-70, and he runs adamant nature as well to power up his priority. He also needs a LO to be able to deal enough damage to get those ohkos, despite having one of the highest attack stats in NU without a terrible ability (slow start/truant). Absol can only have 1 item and 4 moves, evs are irrelevant, even fully invested in bulk, it's abysmal. I brought up Tbolt only because it's something that I've seen carried, it is a bad move, terrible in fact, I fully understand and I stated that, I just wanted to put it out there that he can hit alom, although he 2hkos at +2 w/ night slash I believe either way. At +2, he also 2hkos tangela and other defensive behemoths. His low speed almost requires him to run sucker punch, and to hit fighting types he needs psycho cut. You then need superpower to hit steel types/dark types. That + SD and we're now at our limit. So looking at our set, it's looking something like

    Absol
    252 Atk 4 hp 252 Speed : Adamant nature
    Life orb/Lum depending on preference, you'll lose out on ohkos/2hkos with lum however

    -Swords Dance
    -Sucker Punch
    -Superpower
    -Psycho cut/Night Slash

    Now, going back to our bulk. Erm, or lack thereof. His bulk is pitiful, he can hardly take a mach punch from Gurdurr at full, we're talking the bulk of Houndoom, and Absol has lower hp I believe and much lower SpDef. He has terrible speed as well, he runs enough speed to hit 249 unless he's jolly, which is easily outrun. However, NU is FULL of types that he can switch in on. Skunktank (crunch is still probably a 3hko), psychic types (unboosted non SE hits, he can take 1 of) Musharna is #2 or #3 in usage, and can't touch absol unless it carries signal beam. NU is FULL of psychic types, ghost types, and dark types. Now, you're not going to be switching in your absol into a houndoom any time soon, but you can switch it into a dusknoir, or a musharna, relatively safely (you're probably not going to want to sd on a dusknoir/other ghost unless you have lum) and threaten them out unless they're feeling really ballsy. Absol doesn't have the bulk to take more than 1 non stab/SE hit still, but it forces A LOT of switches. You may outspeed, but he has priority, that is base 80 power and stab backed up with immense 130 base attack and an adamant nature. I believe +2 LO sucker punch does around 90% to sawk/primeape, and even non LO at +2 hits them for around 60-70%. You can also smash them with a superpower if they're switching in or psycho cut if you carry it. I believe the only way for absol to take down gurdurr consistently is to have a +2 LO psycho cut, which will be uncommon, but viable and effective. Absol doesn't have counters, he only has checks (Well, I suppose a physically defensive resttalk Gurdurr would be a counter, but lolwut). There are plenty of pokes that can take 1 hit from absol and retaliate, but to go into these pokes, you give absol a change to hit you with a night slash/psycho cut/superpower/SD /whatever move it has to hit you with or set up with. Absol can only have 4 moves at any one time, but you have to prepare for it having any combination of those 4 moves is what needs to be understood. You may bring your Tangela in expecting a swords dance or a night slash, and end up having to take a fire blast. You may bring your Gurdurr into a swords dance, and feel comfortable, then get smashed by a psycho cut. On any one moveset, he can only have 4 moves, but you don't know what moveset he can carry, and thus you need to be prepared for it to have any of the following: Pyscho Cut, Swords Dance, Sucker Punch, Pursuit, Night Slash, Superpower, and Fire blast. Those are 7 moves, he can only carry 4, but the problem is just that you don't know which 4 he has. I know I'm just repeating myself right now, but I really feel that this point needs to get across. This may seem like theorymoning, but it's something that you need to be prepared for when you get on the ladder. You need to think, if I run across an absol with fire blast, will I be ok. If I run across an absol with Pyscho cut, will I be ok. Etc Etc. I hope this post makes sense, if it doesn't please say so, I'd like to keep my posts quality. (inb4 Um Hello comments about Fire Blast :[ )


    Oh, I also forgot to mention his ability, Super Luck. This combined with night slash raises a decent chance of getting a crit, so you need to be prepared for that as well :l
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2013
  22. MrLumber

    MrLumber Member

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    While I mentioned this earlier, the problem with absol isn't its ability to pack a thing for everything, but its ability to essentially have a 25% chance of sweeping entire teams if it happens to get a SD under its belt. +2 Night Slash crit OHKOes EVERYTHING in the tier, bar none, and that thing has a 25% chance of going off. While I'm sure there are plenty of people lurking around who'd simply say 'don't let it set up', I will politely direct you to the primary scenario that is the cause of Absol's genuine toxicity.

    With the 25% chance of guaranteed loss in mind, here is the scenario. Player X has just killed something with a ghost OR psychic type, Player Y switches in Absol. Player X now has ONE option available, stay in and do their darndest to prevent Absol from setting up. Naturally, Player Y understands the ultimatum presented by Absol, and simply goes for the obvious night slash, because even if Player X switches out, that 25% chance to crit can still pack a wallop. Baring Dusclops (assuming its healthy), Player X's mon goes down virtually for free. This is a zero gameplay scenario, and is specifically the reason Absol should be banned.

    Whats worse, lum berry practically guarantees a free +2 albeit at the cost of several kills. Also, sub is an underrated option as it forces people to attack you meaning sucker punch no longer requires the same amount of prediction. This is also not mentioning the fact that it is now virtually suicide to lock into psychic type moves, giving the overlooked defensive side of Fighting type one less weakness to contend with (commonly).

    While I'm too lazy to hash out all of the calcs here, some notable pseudo calcs about Absol. Isn't OHKOed by Gurdurr mach punch, and only has a chance to after rocks IF Gurdurr is running the significantly less common iron fist. Absol OHKOes Hariyama and Emboar at +1 with LO, +2 w/out. OHKOes both Rhydon, Carracosta, and Primeape at +2 with LO with superpower and sucker punch respectively, and deals a minimum of 80% against Sawk with a chance of OHKOing after rocks. Its oft lauded 'true counter' is Mandibuzz, is still potentially OHKOed after rocks (with a higher chance if you're running speed, which you should). After doing calcs the only thing that really stands a chance is Tangela, taking only 45%~50% on night slash (note it is OHKOed on a crit), can deal back a hit with giga drain granting enough health to kill Absol. HOWEVER this assumes that you manage to roll against the odds in Absols favor, as it has a solid 43.75% chance of scoring a crit. Point being, if Absol gets to +2 you better have something faster with sub or trick, as those are your only guaranteed options. Or CB Drapion / Iron Fist Gurdurr.

    Anyways, my point is that Absol creates non gameplay, limiting the amount of options you have in a match to an insane degree. Its worst offense is invalidating situations with Ghost and Psychic types in its favor. Something simply killing everything after boosted isn't that big a deal imo, but when its put on top of a situation where it can almost always get the boost OR tip momentum steeply into its favor, then something is wrong. Also, please don't compare it to the other dark types in the tier, they are all completely different and Absol is suspect worthy because of its comparative lack of hard counters and sweeping potential.
     
  23. Marche Radiuju

    Marche Radiuju crush it casually

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    This is horrible theorymon. A 25% chance of critical hit does not mean 'virtually for free', it means 25% chance of crit. An advantage that a lot of popular NU psychics have is being faster than Absol, so either the Absol risks Sucker Punch and letting them switch out or they hit it anyway and it's fragile enough that anything after that will kill (if that doesn't do it alone). You're trying to make the argument that Absol is broken because it can revengekill things that are weak to it? That's not a strong argument. Everyone and their dog can say that Absol gets free Night Slash superdangerwowwatchout on the switch but then when does it SD up?
     
  24. Big Bad Booty Daddy

    Big Bad Booty Daddy Big Poppa Pump

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    In response to MrLumber, I'm under the assumption that you think setting up one Swords Dance with Absol is easy. I don't understand how you came to the conclusion that Absol can take a hit from much in NU, sure it's pretty good against stall teams with a Lum Berry. Although most of the time it'll lose to a well-played Alomomola/Mandibuzz. But Absol doesn't have a chance to set up a Swords Dance versus a huge amount of offensive teams.

    I'm glad you were able to realize that a +2 Absol is a huge threat to the tier. But you can't run Life Orb and Lum Berry on the same set, you mention Life Orb Calcs but then mention how Lum Berry is such a good item because you avoid status. Your zero gameplay scenario also applies to a huge amount of Pokemon. Literally, you can make that argument for any Pokemon that learns a +2 boosting move. Although Absol is generally superior because of Sucker Punch, that's an awful argument to make for any Pokemon. And Psychic-type Pokemon like Mesprit, Gardevoir, some Musharna, the most used Psychic-types, ALWAYS carry super-effective moves against Dark-type Pokemon. Whether it be Mesprit carrying U-Turn, Gardevoir carrying Focus Blast, and Musharna carrying Signal Beam, Absol never is able to set-up for free, although it turns into a 50/50 most of the time, I don't think that's letting Absol up.

    Sure it can set-up on Ghost-type Pokemon if it has Lum Berry, but the power difference is very noticeable without Life Orb, since your own calcs have proved that LO is a very big deal in doing damage to Rhydon/Carracosta/Emboar and any Fighting-type that was previously mentioned.
     
  25. meeps

    meeps Well-Known Member

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    meeps
    ya and another really important point that was prob already brought up is absol needs to setup and doesnt come in automatically with +2

    just how absol fares against highly used threats and how it struggles to setup (doing this is a lot of fun trust me)

    sawk - lol
    houndoom - fire blast ohkos (sucker punch from absol will ko after sr and lo damage usually)
    musharna - unless it runs signal beam absol will setup
    mesprit - u-turn can do more than 50% and go into something that can more easily deal with absol
    misdreavus - can taunt but night slash will do plenty of damage
    samurott - hydro pump from special set ohkos. physical set has megahorn
    primeape - lol
    eelektross - needs specs to ko with volt switch tbolt needs lo or specs, but absol wont be able to attack muchafter taking significant damage
    gardevoir - focus blast or signal beam, sub sets prevent sucker punch doing significant damage
    gurdurr - unless absol is at low health gurdurr should always drain punch which always ko's
    claydol - eq 2hkos at best, so absol usually wins
    skuntank - needs poison jab or sludge to do any damage to absol, but two hits of dark-type + aftermath takes absol down
    ludicolo - hydro pump ohkos
    haunter - can setup but sub disable shuts down absol if played correctly. sludge bomb from offensive sets ohko
    rotom-s - cant ohko, but can trick and trap absol into sd, kinda shaky
    piloswine - eq may ko after rocks, can finish with ice shard anyways
    armaldo - x-scissor kos
    alomomola - waterfall cant 2hko off the bat, but lo damage + two waterfall and sr almost always takes down absol
    tauros - rock climb ohkos
    vileplume - sludge bomb 2hko, but only slight chance to ko from absol at +2
    gorebyss - almost 40% chance to ko with unboosted surf
    drapion - eq 2hkos absol cant ko at +2
    kangaskan - double-edge ohkos, return ohkos after rocks
    seismitoad - may 2hko with earth power, phys def avoids being koed by sucker punch, offensive hydro pump kos after rocks
    zangoose - close combat ohkos
    charizard - fire blast ohkos
    dusclops - seismic toss or will-o can cripple absol

    anyways, of 27 of those pokes 11 can ohko and avoid being ohko'd by sucker punch
    2 more of them can ohko when absol does not use sucker punch
    only 4 of the above will generally lose to absol 1 on 1

    yes absol is a major threat when it gets to +2, but it cant setup easily like pokes like klinklang can and proceed to damage a team. it also cant run more than 4 moves which is constantly stated (and i prob already stated too) therefore it is not suspect worthy
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2013
  26. MrLumber

    MrLumber Member

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    Seems as though people didn't get my post, the point was that you essentially always have to lose something to absol if you run ghosts, psychics or even some dark types. The reason its suspect worthy is because it creates bad gameplay as a result of being virtually uncounterable after a +2.

    Please do not get my point confused with simply saying 'If it sets up its a threat!', the point is that Absol creates bad gameplay unlike the other dark types in the tier, where you usually at least have the opportunity to make relative predictions. Houndoom is the closest thing that comes to this, but Houndoom is far frailer than Absol despite the sentiment that seems to be lurking around this thread.

    Still confused why people missed what I was saying seeing as I put a big thing in bold saying THIS SCENARIO IS WHY ABSOL IS BAD, but w/e.
     
  27. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Wait, so how does Absol always kill something if you have a Pokemon of any of those three types?
    Not only do you need to get Absol in on them (in order to set-up and ultimately get a kill or sweep), but you forget this also entitles: not getting hammered by a move like Signal Beam, Hidden Power, or other common coverage moves, switching in on a turn were your opponent isn't going out to non-set up fodder, and playing Absol properly.

    Additionally, for arguments sake, let's say you get +2 on a Musharna or something, as your opponent goes to Sawk. Sucker Punch still doesn't KO Sawk from LO Absol at +2 with Rocks up 90% of the time. (Not to mention that some people can run Lum Berry. Rocks may not be up. Pokemon like Misdreavus fit under the category of ghosts and they can burn non-Lum Absol. Pokemon like Tangela and Mandibuzz exist, etc.)


    Other dark types can actually get a kill on Psychic / Ghost types more often than not. However, their roles aren't comparable. Regardless, Absol isn't as amazing as a sweeper as you claim it is. (How does it cause these bad gameplay situations? What do you mean by bad gameplay situations?)

    Finally, you claimed Houndoom is much frailer. Houdoom is indeed weak to rocks and has pitiful physical defense. However, Absol is nowhere near bulky. In fact, you could call it a glass-Cannon. Not that it is frailer than Houndoom, but both of them fail to tank hits consistently.
     
  28. WizzleKidd

    WizzleKidd Wizzlin' PO since Feb '11

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    Absol's powerful but it ain't broken lol. Don't forget it's poor defense and not so amazing speed.

    There are checks, use them. All I need to say for now is, Gurdurr.
     
  29. MrLumber

    MrLumber Member

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    Eh w/e I no longer care enough about Absol to really want to drag out this conversation, if other people want to take up the flag I will support them.
     
  30. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    Seems like no one else feels it's broken so meh, guess I'll drop it as well.just curious. Absol only becomes really scary at +2, but as it's been said, getting absol to +2 is supposedly, what people really aren't taking into consideration is the fact that Absol forces switches really well. A decent number of the metagame can stay in on Absol at neutral and take 1 hit (it won't like it, bu it can live..) and kill it in turn due to absols frailty. But, Absol ohkos quite a lot of pokes, especially late game where Absol becomes a potent sweeper. I've accepted that Absol won't get a suspect, but something that irritates me is that so many people are underestimating it. In all honesty, I think I'm getting caught up with wanting to ban anything that threatens the metagame which isn't fair for the pokes that can stay, and Absol can definitely stay in nu, as much as I dislike another threat in nu, I appreciate the wall breaking potential. I'm going to build a team with Absol soon so I can give fair assessments and assumptions on it, so far everything I've said is from the perspective of one facing an Absol.