1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Guest, PO has ceased our separate tiering and adopted Smogon tiers for SM. More information and updates here.

    Dismiss Notice

[BW2] Final BW LU Tier / Potential Suspect Thread

Discussion in 'Gen 5 LU' started by Xdevo, Sep 8, 2013.

  1. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,524
    Likes Received:
    1,616
    Wifi LU tier leaders: Tyki, The Real Elmo, and Xdevo.

    Wifi UU->Wifi LU
    Qwilfish

    Wifi LU->Wifi NU
    Absol
    Claydol
    Dusclops
    Dusknoir
    Ferroseed
    Miltank

    Looks like a bunch of stuff dropped to NU, while LU only gained Qwilfish (again).

    This is the final tier change, so don't be afraid to suggest suspects seeing as we have until the tier dies.
     
  2. Tyki

    Tyki Change

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    926
    Likes Received:
    0
    PO Trainer Name:
    Tyki
    Qwilfish brings back another amazing Spiker to the tier, further promoting HO and being something that isn't Bug type. Very good change IMO, also makes Entei less of a threat.
     
  3. Virizion

    Virizion ~ Taste the Rainbow ~

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2013
    Messages:
    621
    Likes Received:
    68
    PO Trainer Name:
    Virizion
    2 months ago, Claydol was UU, and now it's in the depths of NU.

    Anyways, seeing Qwilfish back in LU is a pleasant surprise. I still think it is a threat however as it can check almost any physical attacker with Intimidate including the almost-king of LU, Choice Band Entei with Intimidate and set-up Spikes while the opponent tries to figure out the next move. With access to moves such as Taunt, Explosion and Destiny Bond, this is going to make it top-tier Wifi LU IMO. I might do some testing on it and see if it becomes a suspect.

    EDIT: Damnit Tyki you made me second. ;-;
     
  4. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2012
    Messages:
    4,307
    Likes Received:
    2,286
    PO Trainer Name:
    Finchinator / Finch
    Qwilfish will be great. Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Taunt, other utility moves, decent defensive typing, and intimidate - what more can you ask for?

    It's ironic that it's coming into the tier the same month that two spin-blockers drop due to not enough usage.
    With Golurk being UU and the main spinblcokers being Rotom-A and Spiritomb, I wouldn't be surprised to see some more Dusclops / Dusknoir. But, they're stuck in NU (unless they get suspected and banned to BL3.)
     
  5. AmourShipper

    AmourShipper meh i'm bored

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2012
    Messages:
    136
    Likes Received:
    6
    PO Trainer Name:
    AmourShipper
    QWILFISH IS BACK! QWILFISH IS BACK!

    Now I can finally use a Spiker not named Roselia or Scolipede for those teams that need a check to physical attackers! :) Yay!

    Dusclops and Absol dropping is criminal, they're good. But they'll do well in NU for sure.

    Lol Claydol dropping. UU to NU, what a boss. Claydol sucks anyways so eh.

    Ferroseed was great, it and Dusclops dropping shows that I guess stall is kinda rare.

    Dusknoir is trash and all I can say about Dusknoir dropping is "Finally the p.o.s dropped"

    Miltank dropping...I have no opinion on.
     
  6. Um Hello?

    Um Hello? Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2013
    Messages:
    186
    Likes Received:
    12
    Lol. X]

    It's nice for Qwilfish to come back, as basically everyone has said.
     
  7. AmourShipper

    AmourShipper meh i'm bored

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2012
    Messages:
    136
    Likes Received:
    6
    PO Trainer Name:
    AmourShipper
    what i meant is that finally we have a spiker that can check physical attackers; roselia is good but doesn't fit the bill for those teams that would like a check to physical attackers because it's so frail. Qwilfish can do that and set up Spikes, which is awesome. Sorry for bad wording, lol.
     
  8. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2010
    Messages:
    2,497
    Likes Received:
    540
    This feels like an overload of love for Qwilfish but it's good to have it where it belongs, lol. Now let's hope for a MEGA QWILFISH. Having another useful defensive pokemon / sometimes-check to Entei is something the tier always wants.

    I'm not in love with the state of the tier at the moment as it's really stupid offensive for my tastes. I do feel as though the main things that are causing offense/hyper offense to be by far the best option in the tier are Entei, Moltres and Durant. I wouldn't be against a suspecting of any of those.

    I honestly feel that while many have grown accustomed to it, a suspect for Entei is long overdue - the fact that it can switch in with near impunity on most teams, potentially decimate a pokemon then switch back out, is always something I've felt makes Entei borderline. There are a few checks to Entei but almost all of them are shaky, and Entei is also less predictable than we really think. It's always been a near risk free pokemon in the tier that one can shove on a team and profit, albeit with some flaws. I really do feel as though it's borderline enough to consider as an actual suspect. I think also of all the things mentioned as suspectable recently, Entei has easily the least flaws and the easiest ways of patching them up.

    As for Durant and Moltres, their suspectability has been gone over before. Durant's ability to destroy both offensive and defensive teams with ease could be considered borderline, as well as its significant lack of checks/counters (slightly more than Entei has). Moltres' wallbreaking capabilities are incredible and it has a lot of really useful tools to cover the flaws it does have - one of those, admittedly, being another team member (a spinner). It switches easily on a lot of stuff and whatever comes in usually is 2hkoed, if it's lucky.

    I'd really like to see more talk abt all of these pokemon, particularly Entei who I think a lot of ppl in the past have discounted as a possible suspect. I think it's worth talking about. Are its flaws really enough to not make it a pokemon that you can slot into a team, switch in almost whenever you feel like it with its top bulk in LU, aka the tier where pokemon actually spin, and wreck whatever comes in bar a couple of shaky checks, with absolutely minimum prediction required?
     
  9. Health

    Health Champion of LU

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2012
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    2
    I'm happiest because that means Bisharp can stay in on Qwilfish switches again~
     
  10. Halsey

    Halsey Wildstar

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2010
    Messages:
    3,204
    Likes Received:
    698
    PO Trainer Name:
    Kat
    I usually don't "complain" about suspect worthy Pokemon, but I believe we might have to consider the possibility of suspecting Druddigon.

    Is incredibly hard not getting a kill with Druddigon in the current metagame, I say that as a frequent Druddigon user. If your opponent lacks Ferroseed, Steelix or Aggron, use Outrage and something dies and chances are something else gets damaged in the process, even Escavalier gets 2HKOed by CB Outrage after SR damage. It also learns Earthquake, Fire Punch and Superpower, so the few Pokemon that can actually wall Outrage get wrecked by its coverage moves.

    Sure, it is slow and Outrage has its drawbacks, I know it isn't perfect. However Druddigon in overall is a low risk / high reward Pokemon, that requires little to no prediction to cause a huge impact in a match, even if you have one of the three Pokemon capable of dealing with CB Outrage; if you don't have one of those 3 Pokemon and you can't OHKO Druddigon, you have to pick which Pokemon in your team is going to die and hope you can KO Druddigon after that, otherwise another one of your Pokemon is getting wrecked.

    Of course, I'm just talking about the CB set here because it is by far the most threatening set, but the LO Sheer Force and Substitute set exist and both deal with its usual counters without much trouble.

    Note that I'm not saying it is blatantly broken, I just believe it might be suspect worthy.
     
  11. Daybreak

    Daybreak can't touch this

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2013
    Messages:
    458
    Likes Received:
    142
    PO Trainer Name:
    Daybreak
    I am going to have to agree with this. Although I am not an avid player of lu, I do know how well druddigon can preform in this metagame. Druddigon has a multitude of sets and all of them are completely powerful in this metagame, all of the offensive sets and the defensive sets as well. It is going to preform whatever task you want it to do since your opponent will mostlikely be expecting another set. I am unsure as whether or not it is broken though but it definitely deserves to be suspected.
     
  12. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,524
    Likes Received:
    1,616
    The combination of Shell Smash and Baton Pass is hereby unbanned. If you have any concerns about the two, post it here and the pokemon may be suspected if it is found to be a problem.
     
  13. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2013
    Messages:
    370
    Likes Received:
    375
    Smash Pass unbanned huh, well, the ladder will be a lot more interesting. Thankfully, nidoqueen is gone, her at +2 speed and SpA oh god. Some scary pokes that it can be passed to however: Sigilyph, Magmortar, Zoroark, Moltres, Durant, Sceptile, Medicham, Gallade, Mismagius, oh god I'm scared :c
    Roar is going to be a lot more common, I can see whimsicott's usage spiking a lot honestly. Prankster taunt? Stun Spore? Pretty nice stop to the pass. Poliwrath will get some usage as well most likely, being able to take a surf from the passer and circle throwing it out if it switches. People will definitely need to watch out for it.
     
  14. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2013
    Messages:
    424
    Likes Received:
    11
    PO Trainer Name:
    Liarliarpantsonfire
    I've tried SmashPass out in LU for a while now, and it works pretty good. The trick is to make a good team based around it, but not completely dependant on the pass. Dual Screen support is key to succeeding, hazards not so much so SR should do. Screens are for setting up easily but also to make priority moves a lot weaker, thus making revenge killing nearly impossible. The best recipients are imo Lum Berry Durant and Muscle Band Electivire.

    Durant because it has incredible Attack to begin with, and at +2 it OHKO's nearly everything barring a few exceptions like Poliwrath. Lum Berry allows it to take a T-Wave/Sleep Powder on the pass, and sweep from there. It also performs well without a SmashPass, so it's not a wasted teamslot if the pass fails.

    Electivire I'm not too sure of yet, I have to test it more but I think it has great potential. Motor Drive means Thunder Wave immunity, and a free SmashPass against Volt Switchers. It's coverage is amazing and OHKO's all the popular pokes in LU at +2 after SR, barring Uxie who can't do much back. Miltank and Crustle can take a hit too but they have dropped a lot in popularity.

    Stuff like Moltres seems cute as a SmashPass recipient, but it's way too unreliable because SR, low accuracy STABs, weak to Aqua Jet, etc.
     
  15. Zarkaz

    Zarkaz New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2013
    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    0
    I beileve spirtomb is quite strong in LU at this time and i would like to see it suspected. After doing multiple calcs it can take any hit in LU and not die. regardless of it not being able to put a hurting on very much with its ~lower damage output i feel as if having something be able to take ~every hit in the tier that it is very very strong. some of my more surprising calcs:252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 195-231 (64.14 - 75.98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock 252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Thunder vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Spiritomb: 195-230 (64.14 - 75.65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 220-259 (72.36 - 85.19%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252+ Atk Choice Band Escavalier Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 226-267 (74.34 - 87.82%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Spiritomb: 202-238 (66.44 - 78.28%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(assuming it gets +1 from CMing as typlho switches in) 252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 202-238 (66.44 - 78.28%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. it takes far too many strong strong hits from top tier stuff in LU and i feel as if spirtomb being ~common in LU almost requires you to run something to 2HKO it. I understand my knowelgde of LU meta isnt the best(i have roughly 150 games played across all my accounts) and i understand that taunt is a decent counter to it but i just feel its very very strong in LU right now and i hope im not the only one who thinks that way
     
  16. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2012
    Messages:
    1,262
    Likes Received:
    431
    Spiritomb is a great pokemon, but not really suspect worthy. A lot of pokemon can withstand attacks and get 2HKO'd by a majority of the tier in a lot of ways. Spiritomb has a lack of reliable recovery, dependent on Rest or Pain Split, with a defensive set doesn't have the raw power that makes band scary, thus relies on foul play to deal damage. Will-O-Wisp is able to cripple a lot of physical attackers that try to take it on, but Will-O-Wisp does have a 75% accuracy and only works for physical attackers, so if you burn a special attacker you aren't stopping the kill. Though it does have several multiple sets, Spiritomb is just one of those great mons that get easily KO'd depending on the set. Physical/Special offenses are easily 1-2HKO'd, the defensive sets don't last long without hitting a Will-O-Wisp or getting Calm Mind up a few times. Even then it's best chance of survival is rest talk to inflict damage which is shaky since you are depending on hitting the attack move it has.

    It's always been a great pokemon to use, just not really worth suspecting since it doesn't break teams, it's easy to play around, and it's survival rate is always in question.
     
  17. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2012
    Messages:
    2,463
    Likes Received:
    162
    Agreed with CelePhan. Spiritomb is, and always has been, a good pokemon, but it's never been a great or game breaking pokemon in my opinion. Also, it's worth noting that every calc you made is an easy 2HKO, which hardly makes something unbreakable.
     
  18. tennisace

    tennisace pretty hurts

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2012
    Messages:
    66
    Likes Received:
    21
    All of the calcs you posted were 2HKOs, which means that Spiritomb can't safely switch in on any of those Pokemon without dying the following turn. If anything, you just convinced me even further than I felt before that Spiritomb is not at all banworthy. You also said you felt it was required to carry something that can 2HKO it, but you listed six different Pokemon that can do that and zero that can't lol.
     
  19. Sinclair

    Sinclair Call me the Pokemon Demigod

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2012
    Messages:
    291
    Likes Received:
    639
    First and foremost, pls don't infract me, I'm just the only person who is really going to speak out. I read the guide lines of both the forums and the LU thread so as long as this post is "civil" it should be okay. It is also a discussion within a discussion, and I see no reason why I should get in trouble for this.

    There have been 2 suspects in the last 2 months on Pokemon Online for LU, Druddigon and Moltres. Both of which, I don't think are broken. Both of which, I think most people here do not think are broken. However, the three tier leaders have all the say. They don't establish a way of getting requirements for suspect votes. Instead, they ban whatever they want. There are suspect threads on most of these pokemon, clearly there are two sides two every suspect. However, the tier leaders just vote how they want to and basically these suspect threads are useless. Three people have the decision, not the rest of the community.

    While you three are in charge of LU, there is no reason why these things need to be undemocratic. Why can't you say if you get above 1400 rank you can vote... similar to Smogon, or pick a council from the suspect thread like they did with Landorus-I here.

    The way the system works everyone has the right to complain because there is no democracy. Three people decide what they want and that is how it goes.

    I kindly suggest both Druddigon and Moltres are unbanned, and there is a requirement set to hit on ladder to vote for them, both at the same time. While I really could not care less what the final result is, the current system is completely unjust. People take the time to post in the suspect discussion thread and nothing is gained out of it because in the end only the tier leaders have any say.

    The LU community is much bigger than three people, and if pokemon are going to be banned left and right our voices deserve to be heard.

    Thats all I have to say about that...
     
  20. Laurel

    Laurel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    760
    Likes Received:
    273
    In regards to this, do note that we are not suggesting that the "floodgates" be opened in regards to public voting. A system like that simply doesn't work; it's a fucking mess. However, something less static, allowing for a more diverse selection of voters, would be more efficient, especially if left to a voting requirement system. It simply removes any potential bias, even if 2 or 4 new voters are added each time.
     
  21. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2010
    Messages:
    2,497
    Likes Received:
    540
    Zodiac, you do not speak for other people here. Many people felt Moltres was broken. The cases were made for both sides and weighed up. And Druddigon is a testban so it might not even be permanent. This talk of abuse and being undemocratic is childish. I've seen many things I don't think are broken banned in many tiers and I don't resort to this, because it's unfair and wrong.
     
  22. Laurel

    Laurel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    760
    Likes Received:
    273
    I want to add this. I looked at the LU thread case and point #s never lie.

    Moltres Suspect Thread

    1. afro ban
    2. celestial phantom ban
    3. xdevo ban
    4. tyki ban
    5. dasdardly ban
    6. um hello? ban
    7. matt ayala ban (played lu a couple times)
    8. champ x ban (same as above)
    9. the real elmo never posted (counting as ban)
    10. vuvuzelabzz ban
    11. weavile ban
    12. omfuga ban
    13. pokemonnerd ban
    14. da raikage ban

    1. health no ban
    2. draconinja no ban
    3. ale ramone no ban
    4. new breed no ban
    5. laurel no ban
    6. texas cloverleaf no ban
    7. wizzlekid no ban
    8. dr doom no ban
    9. liarliarpantsonfire no ban
    10. zorodark no ban
    11.wepwn no ban
    12. finch no ban
    13. whatzin no ban
    14. hotncold no ban
    15. cased victory no ban
    16. zodiacthekid no ban
    17. celebi no ban
    18. double01 no ban

    Bans: 14
    No Bans: 18



    Druddigon Suspect Thread

    zodiac no ban
    liarliarpantsonfire no ban
    draconinja no ban
    A$AP KROKOROK no ban
    Um hello? no ban
    Dr. doom no ban
    Laurel no ban [never posted]
    alfalfa no ban
    double01 no ban
    afro smash no ban
    beastly no ban
    wizzlekid no ban
    finchinator no ban
    texas no ban
    new breed no ban
    wepwn no ban [never posted]


    tyki ban
    xdevo ban
    elmo ban
    aurist ban
    ssshanto ban (6 posts)
    The Real Elmo ban [never posted]
    celebi ban
    pokemonnerd ban
    mewthedestroyer ban (posted 3 lines)

    celest on the fence

    Ban: 8
    No Ban: 14

    Did not count those who did not speak.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2013
  23. Sinclair

    Sinclair Call me the Pokemon Demigod

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2012
    Messages:
    291
    Likes Received:
    639
    I do however speak for the people who thought that Moltres nor Drudd or one of the two didnt deserve a ban. Also, for those who thought that the banning of these two wasn't properly carried out, which is a large portion of the community.
     
  24. VuvuzelaΒzz

    VuvuzelaΒzz •Sage

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2011
    Messages:
    890
    Likes Received:
    138
    PO Trainer Name:
    Stephen Colbur
    Tiering is not a democracy and hopefully never will be, as voting does not work in LU(or in any tier, really) and does nothing to remove "potential bias"(in fact it increases the odds of it being a factor), regardless of whether there's voting requirements or not. The tier leaders are in their position for a reason; because they know the tier, have a good grasp of suspect logic and because they are trusted to be impartial. It's not as if the decisions were made behind closed doors over night and announced out of the blue. On the contrary, everyone was given the chance to put forth their arguments concerning both Moltres and Druddigon in their respective suspect threads. The leaders read all the posts and in both cases made a decision based on them. The fact that their decision didn't go your way is not a valid reason to complain about it being "undemocratic" and "unfair".

    tl;dr Your voice was heard, but what it was saying left the leaders unconvinced(in Moltres' case, as Druddigon's remains to be seen).
     
  25. Laurel

    Laurel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    760
    Likes Received:
    273
    Going to keep this short and sweet, I said I didn't care what the result is. I would complain either way with the decision. It was not done correctly. You really want to argue with me that my voice was heard? Elmo did not even post in the thread and he is 1/3 of the people make the decision.

    VuvuzelaBzz: The fact that their decision didn't go your way is not a valid reason to complain about it being "undemocratic" and "unfair".

    My response: "While I really could not care less what the final result is, the current system is completely unjust."

    I'm willing to argue there are people who contributed to both discussions who like the tier leaders, know a lot about the tier.
     
  26. VuvuzelaΒzz

    VuvuzelaΒzz •Sage

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2011
    Messages:
    890
    Likes Received:
    138
    PO Trainer Name:
    Stephen Colbur
    I don't see how whether he posted or not is relevant to whether your voice was heard. He read through the thread, which means that he read what you and everyone else had to say.

    You can keep saying it's "unjust" and "not done correctly" all you want, but until you find a better system for determining whether something should be banned or not you have effectively contributed nothing. Is the leadership system perfect? No, no it is not, however the voting system is far worse. The fact that the entire shape of this generation's metagame was determined by Luck>Skill telling Drigger to vote "No Ban" during the Drizzle vote should be evidence enough for that.
     
  27. Laurel

    Laurel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    760
    Likes Received:
    273
    I already stated that there are many other ways to having a fair suspect vote. Set a ladder req, eg: 1400, and get the rank and screen shot you signed in as that name. Perma ban anyone trying to cheat the system.
     
  28. VuvuzelaΒzz

    VuvuzelaΒzz •Sage

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2011
    Messages:
    890
    Likes Received:
    138
    PO Trainer Name:
    Stephen Colbur
    There was no cheating involved and there was a ladder requirement in the Drizzle suspect. All that happened was one user telling another user who made the requirement what to vote. On the point of ladder requirements, they are stupid. Just because someone can play well enough to get 1400 on ladder(this speaks more as to time investment than skill anyways) doesn't mean they understand suspecting logic and should play an active part in tiering. Also note how at this very moment, 6 people meet that requirement.

    Try again.
     
  29. Laurel

    Laurel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    760
    Likes Received:
    273
    The number i picked was arbitrary i picked it randomly. I never said in the drizzle case ppl cheated, i said to prevent ppl from boosting to rank now the punishment is a ban.

    Also your drizzle case is bad because there are RETESTS.
     
  30. VuvuzelaΒzz

    VuvuzelaΒzz •Sage

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2011
    Messages:
    890
    Likes Received:
    138
    PO Trainer Name:
    Stephen Colbur
    I mentioned the Drizzle vote before you made that reply, so considering your post was advocating a voting system you should've been trying to counter my example of it utterly failing. Instead, you brought up measures which were not only ineffective in it's case, but ineffective in general. Your bad example number was the least relevant criticism I made, it was just the cherry on top of the icing. But I can see why you picked it; you can't legitimately argue against the other points, because they're correct.

    What? Do you realise how many retests and how many months it would take for all of the metagames to adjust? You'd have to unban Drizzle + Swift Swim, then decide whether to suspect the individuals abusers or Drizzle itself. If we suspected Drizzle and banned it we'd have to unban all the Drizzle related bans, then watch a dramatic change in the OU metagame which dramatically affects the lower tiers' metagames over the course of multiple tier-shifts. So no, my Drizzle case is not bad. The point was how your ideal version of a voting system did nothing more than allow bias to determine the entirety of the BW metagame.

    Oh, and on the subject of "RETESTS", you do realise that the argument applies to any ban, under any suspecting system, and that Moltres has been retested twice under the leadership system, right?
     
  31. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2013
    Messages:
    370
    Likes Received:
    375
    There seems to be a misconception about the current voting system, we aren't a democracy. It has always been this way, and it isn't going to chance because you're upset that these pokes got banned. The tier leaders are who they are because they are skilled at LU and know the metagame extremely well. They aren't tier leaders because they paid their way in, they know how the metagame works, more so than you all do. There are currently 6 people with a rating of 1400 or more, but just hitting a ladder score doesn't mean you're the best of the best. I've hit #1 in lu before (during the nidoqueen era), but I don't think I know more than the tier leaders. The tier leaders used your arguments to form a consensus, they looked at the arguments for banning and not banning. Just because more people said "don't ban" doesn't mean a pokemon shouldn't be banned. They need to argue why it shouldn't be banned, Moltres leaving makes the tier healthier, the arguments for it to be not banned were (off the top of my head): Stealth Rocks, Slow. The arguments for its ban were: Overpowering (125 SpA and 120 base power stabs), and no reliable counters, (outside of nu pokes). When you can't switch into a pokemon, it's unhealthy for the tier. Some argued that "oh, hurricane is 70% acc and fire blast is 85% acc so he won't always hit" That's not an argument for it not being banned, that should be more of reason for it TO be banned, but I digress. The tier leaders weighed these and more, logs were posted which you seem to have not read. They considered their effects on the tier, and deemed them unhealthy. Druddigon singlehandly stopped FWGE cores, and had an unstoppable banded set, that is enough reason for his ban imo, but I digress again. Druddigons effects on the tier were also considered and is being TEST BANNED. He's not officially gone yet. If Druddigon being gone significantly changes the tier, that only shows how unbalanced it was/is in LU. If you're worried about Sceptile being broken, then druddigons presence shouldn't have been the sole reason sceptile was allowed in the tier. Bias also played a huge factor in Druddigons suspect thread. I'll admit, I use Druddigon on 90% of my lu teams. He's my go-to SR poke in LU. This is coming from the guy who has a set for agility venonat (in nu), Druddigons presence in lu is extremely overbearing and cannot be disputed. I'm willing to bet everyone who said don't ban uses drudd on most of their teams (I know most of you, and you do so don't bother lying here, but I don't know all).

    I'll add more later
     
  32. Dr. Fomantis Toboggan

    Dr. Fomantis Toboggan man in the couch

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2010
    Messages:
    712
    Likes Received:
    260
    I think that all Zodiac is trying to say here is that banning Moltres is stupid as fuck. At least that's what I got out of it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2013
  33. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2013
    Messages:
    370
    Likes Received:
    375
    The banning of moltres was a full 3-0 pro ban if I read the logs correctly. The leaders succinctly summed up the arguments for its ban and for its staying in the tier, and the overwhelming majority lead to a vote for its ban. The arguments for its ban were: Rocks, and you can revenge kill it, as one of the leaders pointed out. It was unanimously agreed by even the voters that revenge killing was a terrible argument for it to not be banned. That's essentially saying "Alright, moltres is guaranteed a kill, but I'll get to scare it out" and is just stupid. The strongest advocator who argued for it to stay, Clover, raised many points, some were good, I'll admit, but some just didn't make sense to me (90 base speed=too slow apparently. It was agreed that he had no good counters, slowking 2hko'd by hurricane and lanturn 2hko'd after rocks by hp grass w/o protect, he has regirock and munchlax, but both are NEU. When you see moltres on an opposing team, you don't think "Alright, I'll just get my rocks up and it dies". Getting rocks up is your biggest priority, which is so predictable that they can easily lead with moltres and threaten your drudd/uxie. Are you going to stay in and risk it subbing or killing you? Moltres is just too powerful, which is why it should go. If moltres's ban has a positive effect on the tier, why should it stay? I don't understand that. You can't honestly say that moltres staying is healthy for the tier, at most you can argue that it doesn't have as big an impact as others are saying. Also, it seems the majority of the people who meet the ladder requirements voted for its ban from the tier (Um mello/hello, Afro, Tier leaders, etc don't remember everyone off the top of my head)
     
  34. Tyki

    Tyki Change

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    926
    Likes Received:
    0
    PO Trainer Name:
    Tyki
    Gonna make this short because I gotta get to class.

    If you guys have a problem with the system, I suggest bringing it up to someone with higher authority. I can't give you logs, but I did ask in Indigo if a vote could be justified, and was not encouraged to do it based on many of the reasons Vuvu posted above. If an overwhelming amount of people ask for a Moltres retest, I'll be more than happy to bring it up.

    We listen more than you guys think we do.

    And again, Drudd is test banned. This doesn't mean anything about how we feel about it. We're just seeing how exactly the tier works without one of its most common pokes. Moltres and Druddigon ARE allowed in LTT currently (ask TDs about future rounds, I don't know off the top of my head), so if that's what people are freaking out about I hope that fixed it.
     
  35. The Real Elmo

    The Real Elmo Caterpie hungers...

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2010
    Messages:
    618
    Likes Received:
    33
    I apologize if I come across as rude.
    The other tier leaders and I took our time over multiple discussions between just pairs of us before having the final 3way discussion to come to this conclusion of banning Moltres.
    Just so you know, I started out Anti-Ban, but had my mind changed by the opinions and arguments posted in the discussion thread

    @ZodiakTheKid
    [/HIDE]

    @Laurel
    If you are going to Copy/Paste someones post in a PM to me, at least be kind enough to credit them, not just slap on your signature at the end.
    Textbook Plagiarism.
    You can go read my response to their post.

    Yeah, http://thebest404pageever.com/swf/nope.swf.
    What matters to me was the arguments of the posters, not so much their final ban/no ban position.

    I'm not going to bother with the rest of your posts. Vuvu pretty much gave my opinion on any other of your posts
    [/HIDE]


    Da Raikage understands completely why we banned. Read his posts people.


    Let me end by saying:
    If you have a problem with a tier leader, talk to a higher auth.
    Don't just sit around until we start "banning pokemon left and right".
    We are real people, with sometimes bias opinion, but we try our hardest to read and evaluate all arguments given for any issue.
    I'm going to miss using my Sub Tox Moltres badly, but this was a necessary ban for the health of the tier.
    http://thebest404pageever.com/swf/deal_with_it.swf

    Also, I swear we infracted/deleted 50% of the posts in the Moltres discussion thread. Seriously guys.
     
  36. Laurel

    Laurel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    760
    Likes Received:
    273
    Im going to dismiss everything raikage said because the full 3-0 is whah the tier leaders ai not what the populace said. If you read my numbers i added all three leaders onto the ban list an unban stll had majority? Vuvu i responded to 140 cuz the rest of your "argument" does not exist. If someone is good enough to get 1350 orw/e they prob have their own opinionon drud and tres and will vote themselves. There was no such system in place for drizzle if i am not mistaken. Andon smogn aldaron clause had a huge majority...

    You think my argument is bad i cant tell if your argument is serious.

    If you have any problems with what i said PM me.

    @tyki: we dont want a retest we want a new voting system. This one is crap both you and devo wanted the banned and tht is why they were suspected.

    I am the voice of the suppressed majority. [real world example of this but inappropriate]

    Sorry on phone

    Didnt see what elmo said will read after class

    Fyi elmo that was my post and he copied me. Look at the times. I was too scared to post in thread i posted that on irc everyone agreed. My opinion ends here im not get in trouble for this.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2013
  37. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2010
    Messages:
    404
    Likes Received:
    19
    PO Trainer Name:
    NidoTheKing78
    [SECRET]
    yay.jpg
    (Couldn't pass the opportunity)[/SECRET]

    About Moltres ban,

    I remember almost the exact thing happening with Blissey in UU where a few people were downright pissed at the ban vote (mostly because of extremely biased arguments but I digress). But, the vote is done and it was a completely fair procedure.

    Vuvu pretty much said why democratic votes aren't a good idea and I can add on. The main reason why they don't always work is because the reasons can be horribly inaccurate and the ban could have in fact been a mistake. Another example is everyone joking that Luvdisc is overpowered and, as part of the joke, all wanting it to be banned to Ubers. This is a bit extreme, but possible in full democracy.

    The tier leaders are the ones that make order and have higher knowledge of the situation, a lot like congress voting on a bill instead of us. The only time where it is unacceptable is if there was no logical reasoning behind the ban, and the ban had enough reason to take charge.

    The Moltres ban is solid and a retest takes a while to put together if I recall, so I'm for it.

    Also, Druddigon test ban is testing to see if the ban would have a positive or negative effect on the metagame and that will decide its fate. It isn't an official ban from the tier as of yet. Take it as a reverse retest!
     
  38. VuvuzelaΒzz

    VuvuzelaΒzz •Sage

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2011
    Messages:
    890
    Likes Received:
    138
    PO Trainer Name:
    Stephen Colbur
    Then you should get some glasses and/or "Reading Comprehension For Dummies (Paperback Edition)". I never said they don't have an opinion, only that the fact that they can make X ladder rating does not make said opinion an educated one that should affect the suspecting process.

    Yes, there was, and it was 1500.

    Andon Pkmn-Onlne we're not smgon...

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 4, 2014
  39. Laurel

    Laurel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    760
    Likes Received:
    273
    I think Elmo makes a good point about how quality of argument > people in argument, but I think the quality of argument of the non ban side is better... I have played moltres many times and hate it, but i think it is good for the metagame. Thinks like Moltres make teams like August Stall (Which is amazing in LU just change some stuff to deal with bisharp better) checkable.

    Anyways to respond to nido - yes quality of argument is important but 1/3 of the people who want to ban Moltres admitted to having very little experience in LU. Furthermore, I know that people like Omfuga wanted to ban Moltres cause they use teams with no fire resists....

    This is all I'm going to say because I think my opinion on Moltres is clear.

    I understand the LU tier leaders are put in a position of power because they are very knowledgable about the tier, and I respect each and everyone of their opinions really i do.

    My problem is simple.

    I do not agree with the principal of this ban system. It allows decisions to be made that are not with in a majority which is not fair to the populace. You can argue then idiots can vote all they want, but idiots can vote in almost every election.

    Currently the majority of users, who are suppressed, are being argued against by the minority who actually has the power. [edit edit edit real world example not cool here sry edit edit] anyways I digress

    I suggest that in the future either a larger council is made of experienced LU players, in order to try and accurately present the masses of opinions, or a ladder requirement is set of about 1325, minimum 50 games played, so people with enough skill in the tier can accurately vote their opinions.

    You can argue all you want that this system does not work, but me and everyone who agrees with me can argue all we want how this system is not fair as well.

    This concludes my opinion about Moltres and Druddigon, I will no longer post anything in this thread. If you have a question for me or want to talk to me shoot me a PM I will be more than likely to respond.

    Expect a rap soon...
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2013
  40. Sinclair

    Sinclair Call me the Pokemon Demigod

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2012
    Messages:
    291
    Likes Received:
    639
    To be honest I read through all of the posts for Druddigon suspect and Moltres suspect, and the "people with an uneducated opinion" were usually the people voting to ban either one because of inexperience in the tier.
    Just what I observed.