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[BW2] Suspect Discussion: Moltres

Discussion in 'Gen 5 LU' started by Tyki, Sep 8, 2013.

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  1. Tyki

    Tyki Change

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    [​IMG]

    Discuss the possibility of Moltres being banned from the LU tier.

    Try to make intelligent posts based off of experience in the tier. Posts based off theorymon are at risk of being infracted.

    Try to find the checks and counters of Moltres as well as its impact and power in the tier. Do not simply say "it's broken" or "it's not broken". Back up your arguments on why you think it should be banned or not.

    If a consensus is reached after a few weeks, it will likely be implemented. If not, a vote will likely be held. As mentioned before, posts with solid arguments will be taken into consideration.
     
  2. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Moltres only has 1 true counter in Sp Def Munchlax, taking nothing from Fire Blast and minimal damage from Hurricane, and that's only if it hits. Next in line is Lanturn which imo is a pretty bad pokemon, it has no reliable recovery, and it has to go Specially Defensive to hope to Check Moltres, leaving it wide open for physical attacks, and even the Sp Def set is 3HKO'd by HP Grass. Sp Def Slowking is also a decent check but has a chance to be 2hko'd by hurricane after rocks.

    So Moltres is near uncounterable, howevever it has other things to keep it in check, namely Stealth Rocks and Scarfed Electric type pokemon, and both of these things are very common. The Rotom's, Manectric, Galvantula, basically any Electric type is a reliable way to either kill moltres or force it out and have it possibly come back in on rocks. Stealth rocks deal 50% every time Moltres comes in and that combined with LO means it won't be lasting too long.

    However LU probably is the easiest tier to spin in so rocks are rarely an issue if you're packing a spinner, as foresight chan and SD Kabu can reliably beat Ghost types and spin.

    The Accuracy of Moltres moves hold it back some too, Hurricane is very innacurate and isn't rare to miss to miss 2 in a row and be killed off.

    However despite the relative ease to revenge kill it and the innaccuracy of it's moves, i feel it is fast enough and strong enough to warrant a ban, it can ohko basically every offensive pokemon, 2hko every defensive pokemon and can outspeed a lot of the tier too, it also has relible recovery in roost to stay healthy against weaker attackers, rocks are rarely an issue as LU has great Spinners, and it puts a ridiculous amount of pressure on bulkier teams or stall teams, and doesn't allow all playstyles to thrive.

    I say Ban.
     
  3. Health

    Health Champion of LU

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    I'd disagree with a ban due to as Afrosmash has said, there are many electric scarfers in the tier that just melt it. Along with the huge amount of scarfed Krookodiles which OHKO it without fail, and Kabutops/Bisharp +2 revenge killing, and +1 Lilligants OHKO'ing it with HP rock, I vote no ban.
     
  4. Tyki

    Tyki Change

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    How does one get to +2 or +1 when revenge killing? I'm sorry, but that logic is flawed. I do agree though that revenge killing Moltres isn't an issue, that problem is what I can do before the revenge kill, or if the checks are taken care of.
     
  5. Sakuya Izayoi

    Sakuya Izayoi love to hate

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    Moltres is extremely hampered by just the presence of Stealth Rock alone, as it rips away 50% of its health. Stealth Rock is found on almost all teams, meaning Moltres is likely to only come into the battlefield with 50% of its health. While you might debate that Moltres does get roost, Moltres' 90/90/85 bulk isn't going to even want to take anything at 50% health. Not to mention, Moltres also has many compelling weaknesses to common types, such as Water and Electric. It's base 90 speed isn't the best though, leaving it to be outran by a wide range of threats, and its weakness to Aqua Jet is also another compelling weakness.

    Moltres do have access to 2 extremely powerful STABs though, but it isn't extremely powerful without Choice Specs boosting the power. Should Moltres run Specs, it is outran by almost any scarfed pokemon, meaning either revenge-killing or having a sturdy special wall is the best way to take it down. That being said, not many full-proof counters exist in LU, Munchlax being the only one being able to stomach all of its assaults. Lanturn can also switch into anything bar a specs hp grass, and strike it down with Volt Switch/Scald/T-bolt etc.

    Overall, I deem it as not broken as its weaknesses allow it to be revenged by a large amount of threats and its Stealth Rock weakness further hampens its ability to stay in the field longer, and thus it outwieghs the firepower Moltres packs. Therefore I vote No Ban
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2013
  6. Health

    Health Champion of LU

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    Ah, my bad. But I guess it's easier with sashed Lilligant which is a rather common sight. But I still stand by my vote.
     
  7. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    Sashed Lilligant was used on only 5.81% of Lilligant last two months, and the sash is completely ruined by any form of hazard or switching into any attack, not to mention that Lilligant still can't switch into Moltres without risking a speed tie (at best).

    The problem with the revenge killer argument is the fact that in order to switch these revenge killers in something has to die. If revenge killing is the only option, Moltres is given a free kill each match, and can (and will) switch out to come in later and get another kill. This type of logic applies to a lot of things that are BL / Uber, which is revenge killing can be taken into account, but shouldn't be the crux of any suspect discussion.
     
  8. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    If anything I know the majority of the argument here will be Revenge Killing or The Rocks weakness Moltres has or even the Accuracy of it's main STAB moves. However, I find that out of those the only hindrance to Moltres is entirely the accuracy of the moves and how the RNG decides to work in the match. Let's start off with the Rocks portion of this.

    Stealth Rocks: Moltres is sadly one of the many pokemon that is hindered by a 4x weakness to Stealth Rocks so it takes 50% of damage from every switch-in moltres does. It's not living 3 switch-ins to stealth rocks that is a given, and anything that outspeeds after it's initial switch in the first time will more than likely kill it depending on what it does switch in to. It will fall to Aqua Jet from kabutops, Espeed from Entei (just barely about 6% chance to OHKO I'm figuring), SP from bisharp (about 50% of the time), and anything that doesn't get OHKO'd by Fire Blast, Hurricane, or HP Grass after it's switched in with rocks up.

    However we are talking the LU tier and Spinning is one of the easiest things to do especially with a lack of good ghost types to beat the spinners. To choose from players have spiritomb, mismagius, dusknoir, dusclops, misdreavus, + a selection of lesser used ghost mons that aren't worth using on a team. Kabutops manages to easily beat out each of these in 2-3 hits and if it manages a Swords Dance then they are dead one hit earlier, especially if you manage rocks up as well. Hitmonchan does run foresight as a standard in today's metagame where spike and SR stacking is incredibly easy. And with that move requires some prediction on if you are going to switch in your spinblocker or not. Will-O-Wisp from dus(clops/noir), tomb, or misdreavus both Kabutops and Chan very well but with Foresight Chan as a partner again it doesn't have to worry about it as long as it's spinning. Both of which pokemon do incredibly well against when versing spinblockers in the tier, since except for dusclops, each of the aforementioned are 1-2HKO'd on the switch since they can attack as much as spin if they so choose to, which requires prediction on the spinblock owner's part if they want their spinblocker to continue to live. (Dusclops for arguments sake just leaves it as set up fodder for those who are willing to argue it's use).

    Revenge Killing: For those of you who will argue that revenge killing it is so easy as you make it sound by the amount of scarf electric type pokemon we have, well that's a bit off don't you think? Rotom, Rotom-C, Manectric, and Magneton are the common electric scarfers you refer too, add in Medicham and Magmortar for two more common scarfers with ways to kill Moltres. Out of those 6, only 2 of them will successfully have a chance of killing something. Any good player obviously won't let you just revenge kill this stone cold killer this easily. Moltres has been gifted one of the greatest partner's to prevent it from being revenge killed in this metagame...Lanturn. Out of these mons, Lanturn lives through Rotom, Manectric, Magneton, and Magmortar. Medicham and Rotom-C have no problems from Lanturn switch ins. However, the other 4 do, and Lanturn is not an extremely useless pokemon by far. It has a great array of support options that help moltres kill these pokemon with Thunder Wave and Rain Dance Support, that is honestly one of the best combinations I've used with Moltres. As for naturally outspeeding, Cinccino, Durant, Sceptile, Accelgor, Aerodactyl, Galvantula, and Krookodile don't have so much of a problem with this core. Except Accelgor who fails to OHKO and will get para'ed. Revenge killing Moltres so easily as people say with scarf mons is not as easy as it is depending on the teams, but one thing is for certain is that to effectively Revenge kill it you will need something that naturally outspeeds it and proper prediction vs. it and it's partners with some of these mons requiring or naturally running a choice item. Where Moltres can spam a Hurricane or Fire Blast against predictions that require you to try and hit Lanturn. Sceptile/Aero are the only two who don't have to worry about this most times.

    Moltres itself: Yes, Moltres most times ends up being a hit or miss pokemon depending on the way the RNG wishes to work, whether it's missing 2 needed Hurricanes in a row, or being lucky and hitting 7 of them straight in a row leading to a 6-0 victory (Yes I have had this happen before, it is not impossible). It's main STABs are Fire Blast and Hurricane boasting an 85/70 accuracy respectively. 85 accuracy isn't that bad and will hit most often a 5 or 6 out of 8 times. Hurricane is the kicker in which it has the potential to miss 6/16 if not more times, again depending on how the RNG wants to roll. Moltres basically requires rain support if you want to make killing whole other teams in 6 hits possible. Choice Specs Moltres is no joke in this tier though. It is extremely difficult to face, Fire Blast or Hurricane will 1 or 2HKO most of it's opponents, with Lanturn, Munchlax, and Regirock being able to live those 2 hits, and Hidden Power Grass on a switch in, and cripple it. Aggron manages to come in on Hurricanes and return KO.

    That was just the specs set, Moltres is not just limited to running specs, as it manages to run a very successful and versatile SubRoost set with Hurricane/Fire Blast + Toxic support set. Where in Moltres loses a slight bit of it's power to 1-2HKO everything and add in a potential extra hit being needed (though LO Hurricane still OHKO's a vast majority of opponents.) The upside to this set is that all those "Revenge" killers have now been made to take one hit from Moltres (Unless they are the annoying ones with Scarf Volt Switch), which none of them want to do. Sub gives you a free turn to block status mons if you come in on one of those, roost off damage to live a hit, and with Hurricane or Fire Blast just deal a hit so you force them to send something else out if you can kill the current mon that's in. Even though you aren't dealing the same destructive damage you are piling pressure on the opponent to find a way to get moltres out which is usually phazing this set, or one of the volt switch scarfers.

    For it's final effective set Moltres makes for an amazing Choice Scarfer itself. While lacking the power that Subroost LO has and Specs definitely has, Moltres is capable of turning the tables on a majority of pokemon that outspeed it. Those pokemon that "naturally" outsped it to revenge kill it are now made ineffective (unless they are scarfed too or sceptile's unburden), as well as being partnered with Lanturn make those same scarfed electric mons still ineffective. Hurricane still has to deal damage though a lot of 2HKOs become 3HKOs to my knowledge, will do some calcs later when it's not 4 am.

    Overall I say think that Moltres has the necessary power backing it that it effectively can cripple a majority of playstyles used against it except for phazing playstyles as long as rocks are up. The ability to pressure opposing teams, and have 1 all purpose partner that can help render most of it's "scarf revengers" ineffective, and help it continue a sweep with little effort, and run several versatile sets that are all viable in the metagame makes me believe that Moltres is Broken and should be banned from LU.
     
  9. Dasdardly

    Dasdardly Uknown Bird

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    Subroost is still good and Moltres with Hurricane feels like Liepard in that 50% of the time I'm playing a game that I don't affect, but the RNG does. Moltres is at best, not good for LU, and at worst broken.
     
  10. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    First of all Moltres in no way needs specs to break walls, it does this fine with Life Orb.

    Secondly i'd like to touch again on how moltres makes stall completely unviable. Moltres' wall breaking capabilities means that basically every pokemon on a stall team can be 2HKO'd by any of it's moves, combine this with reliable recovery, good speed and decent bulk and it's a pokemon that's not going to be dying any time soon either. If you've ever faced stall with your own Moltres or used stall vs a moltres you know this to be true.

    So i because of my reasons stated earlier and because it doesn't allow all playstyles thrive, i believe Moltres is broken.
     
  11. Um Hello?

    Um Hello? Member

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    If I'm honest I was planning on staying out of this, but I've got to ask some questions.

    1.

    What set in particular are you talking about? As far I can tell it's the Specs set, but reading Afro's most recent post he mentions reliable recovery, which makes me think a SubRoost two attack set? But then assuming you're using Dual-stab you lose out on HP Grass, and if you drop Sub for HP Grass you can be revenged more easily.

    I personally prefer a Scarfed Moltres, as it allows it to come in on a Venomoth or Lilligant at +1, and they can't do anything to Moltres excluding on the switch in:

    The best Venomoth can do if it's QDPass is indeed pass it, but for that it has to win the potential speed tie, which for some reason my Moltres always wins. I don't know if that's luck or just a lot of Modest Venomoths.

    HP Rock lowers speed by one so is out sped and OHKO'd by Fire Blast, which is a decently accurate move. And any Lilligants without HP Rock at best speed tie but can't do anything back.

    Note: For both of these to be potential speed ties they have to be timid, which as they're QD they really aren't always.


    Moltres also gets U-Turn, which can be nice on its Scarf set, for general U-turn benefits, I won't regurgitate them as I'm sure you all know them.


    2.

    Just because strictly speaking to revenge a Pokemon you have to lose a Pokemon in no way makes Moltres more broken, remember if Rocks are up Moltres only has 3 switch ins assuming it takes no hits. (2 switch ins if you're stupid >_> ), and then if you're switching Moltres in it has a high chance to be hit by an attacking move anyway, and if it isn't, that means it's revenge killing also, or a slow voltturner/double down.

    Whilst LU is by far one of the best tiers to spin in, that doesn't mean you can always spin 100% of the time. There is a nice chance of you having rocks up on your side of the field.

    To improve on my first point about revenging Moltres, if the player switches out of your revenger and rocks are up that's an extra 50% damage to Moltres,


    about spinning:

    Technically foresight is very easy to play with, as even if you foresight on a hazard setter just double foresight as they're incredibly likely to bring in their ghost.
    This is just a comment on how peoples minds work, if you've foresighted on a prediction, you were obviously planning on spinning, so they'll bring their ghost in.

    ^I've caught FAR too many people out with double or even triple foresighting.^


    3. Scarf Moltres outspeeds a nice % of some of the revengers given, like all Rotom formes beyond the original (I literally can't remember what to call it, sorry.) Medicham, Magneton, Magmortar.

    As for Lanturn walling most of the revenge killers to Moltres, so what o.o
    You can't say something isn't a valid revenge killer just because one possible team mate walls it.

    5. Accuracy, self explanatory.

    6. Usage, Moltres has a pretty average usage, so it isn't a Pokemon that you'll find every 2 or 3 battles, like Nidoqueen was, for example. Not an argument for brokenness/non brokenness, but still a valid point I feel.

    7. Firepower: Beyond being a bad pun Moltres obviously hits hard, read other posts in thread for something in depth.


    There might be something I missed but oh well!

    I realise I partially contradicted myself in some parts, but I was trying to be unbiased.

    I'll abstain from giving a ban/no ban for now, however.
     
  12. Ale Ramone

    Ale Ramone Member

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    I agree with this post and I add this: due to stealth rocks moltres can easily countered with priority moves. Ghost type is common in LU, so rocks are difficult to get spinned. If you force a switch moltres is not a problem. I vote no ban.
     
  13. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    This is pretty poor logic, since his logic was poor as well. Seeing as Bisharp isn't +2 revenge killing (revenge killing suggest switching in and just killing with the next hit). However aqua jet manages to 100% revenge kill, while Bisharp has like a little over 50% with a standard subSD set unless I did my calc on the smogon damage calc wrong.

    Moltres gets 3 switch ins on Rocks before it dies, requiring you to outspeed or have priority to force another switch, meaning you would need a scarfer or something with over base 100s most of whom are going to die on a switch in and thus have to revenge kill, which with any of the 3 sets it can run are near impossible to do depending on the situation. As each has their own survival conditions. Again just switching in a moltres on rocks does not mean it still can't kill you off very easily as it does have moderate bulk that lets it live necessary hits from priority.
     
  14. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    This is the set i've been talking about:
    [​IMG]
    Moltres @ Life Orb
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Roost
    - Hidden Power [Grass]
    - Hurricane
    - Fire Blast

    Has the coverage, power from life orb, and recovery from roost, definitely the most versatile of all the sets. Specs only hits a bit harder and being locked into a move makes you easier to revenge kill.

    As for spinning, it is very easy in this tier, SD Kabutops can OHKO Rotom + Mismagius after rocks with Aqua Jet, and kill the bulkier ghosts like Dusknoir + Spiritomb with Stone Edge. Hitmonchan can just Foresight, and even if he predicts wrong literally no Ghost can even 2HKO him so he can foresight and spin next turn. I'm not saying you can always keep rocks away, just that rocks are not always there (rarely infact) to keep moltres in check.

    And Moltres isn't easy to revenge kill at 50% with priority, non LO Aqua Jets from Kabu + Feraligatr only have around a 50% chance to ko, and Celestial has covered the other common Prio users.

    I still believe the fact it singe handedly demolishes stall, and functions well on and against offence is the main point for its brokenness, and the point no one has argued yet.
     
  15. New Breed

    New Breed ka$h

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    Throw out the Scarf, SubRoost and Specs set. The LO set that Afro Smash has listed is definitely the best Moltres set with the option of running Substitute > Hp Grass. With that being said there is a huge reason why Moltres is a rare sight in high level play and that is because it has significant drawbacks which we all know about by now.

    Spinning is fairly easy in the tier but assuming that both players have the same skill level, it well never be as straight forward as going into your spinner and getting rocks off the field. Moltres does in fact have roost to somewhat "counteract" the crippling SR weakness but in truth if Moltres is running it's best set (LO) it will be forced to Roost every time it comes in on SR or will be dead to SR after LO recoil, thus easing the threat it is to a team and allowing for something like Scarf Rotom-C, Krookodile or Kabutops/Feraligatr to successfully check it.

    The nature of BW2 just doesn't allow for Stall to flourish, Moltres is just ONE contributing factor to this and removing it from the metagame will not suddenly allow stall to be great especially with things like Durant and CM Roost 2 Attacks Sigilyph will still completely shit on it. In BW2 it just isn't possible to be able to check and counter everything. When Nidoqueen left the tier everyone thought Stall would suddenly become great and this was backed up by the the increase in players trying to pull it off, however people quickly went away from that as soon as they realised that nothing had actually changed and they were still getting shit on by common offensive Pokemon. Sadly Stall players in BW2 must significantly outplay their opponents to have any chance of coming out on top vs any well built offensive team. I probably have more experience with using Stall then anyone else posting in this thread and there are definitely bigger problems for Stall than Moltres. FYI my Regirock Stall handles Moltres fine it's just to check it you have to give up on checking other things which again brings me back to the point that you can't check and counter everything in BW2!!!! And if you think that sucks now well wait till XY, it's only gonna get worse.


    #noban
     
  16. WizzleKidd

    WizzleKidd Wizzlin' PO since Feb '11

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    But we already re-tested Moltres and for months now found out that it should stay LU.. ???
    Munchlax and Slowking are indeed its only counters as has checks such as Lanturn but does it matter it only has 2 counters? Because of stealth rocks and the amount of scarfers and 90+ speed pokemon in the tier, Moltres is manageable.

    Leave Moltres alone

    Also, good luck getting 100% with Fire Blast and Hurricane.
     
  17. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    We also banned it twice before, all this shows is that the metagame changes. The tier gets more or less defensive, Pokemon leave (Nidoqueen), MOLTRES GETS FUCKING HURRICANE; all of these things are why Moltres is getting suspected, and if you can't see why, you should probably avoid posting further.

    Munchlax is terrible in LU right now, and it has been for a while. Slowking is 2HKO by LO or Specs Hurricane. Lanturn is the only thing in LU that can take 2 of Moltres's STAB attacks, and is still 2HKO'd by HP Grass.

    People need to stop with this revenge killing argument. It's terrible way to lead a tier, and it leads to tiers warped around Hyper Offense and it simply isn't healthy. I'm not sure when the fuck it became okay to think that revenge killing was a completely valid argument, but it's really just awful.


    One note for all of you: Read this before you post. Things have gotten too lax, and I'm going to be getting more strict in suspect threads as this gen ends, and into the next.

    If you note, that was a completely different thread, discussing completely different things, in a completely different context.

    Esca's base 20 Speed means that the things that counter it can actually outspeed it (See Steelix, Aggron). It also means that, should you decide to not have anything that can take an attack from Esca for w/e reason, you have literally the entire tier to use. Moltres requires Scarf Electrics or the things faster than it that carry a rock move.
    Moltres's base 90 Speed means that the tiny amount of things that can actually take an attack are quickly outspeed and 2HKO'd all of the time. There is pretty much nothing faster than Moltres that can take any attack and survive.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2013
  18. Um Hello?

    Um Hello? Member

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    Because if revenge killing wasn't used as an argument at all,

    This was you, using revenge killing as an argument yourself.


    Revenge killing is an important part of Moltres' suspect imo, because of the 4x weakness to Rocks, if it's forced out by a revenge killer when rocks are up it becomes less and less of a threat.





    Meh, I'm going to say ban
     
  19. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    I'm not really decided on Moltres. Although I am sort of far leaning toward no ban.
    Moltres' weakness to rocks can be a rather debilitating thing. It's been covered but it does make it much easier to revenge kill and makes it much more reliant on scoring OHKOs, and also makes it more difficult to switch in, given it has to add 50% on to whatever hit it wants to take. Yes Moltres functions as an anti stall Pokémon, and a good one at that. Various Pokémon do come as reasonable checks to it though, I believe Lanturn to be the best of these. Its resistance to both of its STABS and great Special Bulk allow it to take on any Moltres with a certain level of success as a guarantee (sans crits, Hurricane confusion etc). Slowking counters non-specs sets that lack Toxic as they find it near impossible to really hurt Slowking unless LO, which is worn down rather quickly.

    That said one can't always assume rocks to be up, Hitmonchan and Kabutops are too very strong Pokémon and can assist Moltres in spinning away rocks. Both of these do however lose to the above mentioned Lanturn and Slowking (I think Lanturn might need to be sort of lucky with a burn to take on Hitmonchan though). But for a Pokémon whose effectiveness is so heavily affected by SR as Moltres I believe they can certainly be considered a large hindrance to its effectiveness and whether or not you can really consider it broken.

    As mentioned by New Breed though, stall is a very hard thing to do in BW2 and I think in LU especially, the tier has so many offensive threats that you are going to have to sacrifice countering some and select what you're going to "lose to". If you run Lanturn to check Moltres and Cleric you may forego something else that checks another range of Pokémon. Perhaps a poor example, but the point is stall has to trade off what it can beat in this meta and that really won't change if you remove Moltres alone as far as I see it.

    I'll reserve judgment until I've done some reading of posts to come.
     
  20. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I was going to bring up devo's past history on moltres but decided not to and save the ball busting for a later time.

    I will say, however, that if revenge killing was really an argument we could use, Victini would not have been banned when it was somehow LU. Just because Moltres isn't the fastest offensive mon(really anything below 91 is kind of sluggish here, and things like Hitmonlee have speed boosting abilities) doesn't mean it's not a problem. If we take away Rocks, since LU is by a very long shot the easiest tier to spin in, Moltres actually has some very sturdy bulk. It can easily live Scald from Slowking with health to spare, giving it more chances at landing Hurricanes, can repeatedly wear down Lanturn with HP Grass and successfully Roost on it if it feels like Volt Switching or Thunderbolt-ing, and pretty much everything else can't really stand up to Hurricane+Fire Blast/HP Grass, and even Flamethrower is a good enough follow up move for a lot of things. Hurricane is a huge part of Moltres' pro ban arguments this time around; Slowking is still a solid counter but can lose when accounting for Rocks damage and a bit of bad luck(which is really almost 50/50), but everything that could check it moderately well before doesn't want to chance a Hurricane to the face.

    And although spinning is "easy"(comparatively) in LU it's still difficult to avoid getting Kabutops burnt or have a lightning bolt shoved up its ass. Rocks are still a huge problem for Moltres and if they can't be spun negate its bulk I mentioned.

    I'll make a more fleshed out post later, crunched for time now. Sorry.
     
  21. Scatterbrain

    Scatterbrain You only live once*

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    I hate to compare Charizard to Moltres especially them being pretty much completely different, but they both have something in common with the 4x weakness to rocks (and typing but that's besides the point). It's 125 spec attack isn't shit to just take like that, and wallbreakers (like Tornadus-T who was banned from OU a while back) aren't something a healthy metagame likes either (although, Torny was a mixed sweeper). I don't know, but like mentioned before, Munchlax is a good counter and all, but needing to have a dedicated counter to it is something that warrants a ban.

    Though I haven't much experience, I've only played LU a couple times.
     
  22. Wepwn

    Wepwn Wonderbread

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    Uhhhhh, Lu is the easiest tier to get rid of rocks lol. The ghosts in this tier are frail as fuck (barring Dusclops ofc) and SD Kabutops OHKOs them on the switch and Hitmonchan can just easily foresight with its great special bulk. You can't rely on SR all the time to get rid of Moltres.

    It's ridiculous how some of you are bringing up that SR and priority makes Moltres not broken, it's just terrible and unreliable logic. As we all know Rocks are not hard to spin at all in this tier so they are never guaranteed. There are plenty of scarfers that can come in and revenge kill Moltres but you usually will have to fodder something when it gets a free switch in before coming in to revenge kill. Moltres 2hko's the majority of the tier as long as it can hit which is a really one of the biggest issues when using it. As for the best set to use, the set Afro Smash posted is by far the best Moltres set to use as it destroys stall as he stated and it has amazing coverage. HP Grass can easily beat one of Moltres' best counters known as Lanturn if you are able to predict the switch in. 252 SpA Life Orb Moltres Hidden Power Grass vs. 40 HP / 216+ SpD Lanturn: 174-205 (43.39 - 51.12%) -- 67.58% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock. As for Mucnhlax being a counter, it really should not be brought up because well it's a bad Pokemon in this metagame. Moltres also has the ability to U-turn and lure in its counters and go to the respected mon to finish it off which is also pretty damn amazing and this makes the Scarf set viable also. To sum it up Moltres is arguably the biggest threat in the tier and sure is a pain to get rid of.

    As for Moltres getting banned or not, I'm leaning towards ban but not fully decided yet.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2013
  23. Laurel

    Laurel Well-Known Member

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    Okay. I don't post legitimate posts in suspect threads very often, but I do not think Moltres should be banned. While it is a top threat in LU, I do not in any way shape or form see it as broken. It was fairly easy to deal with. First and foremost, it's typing is a double edged sword. While it's offnsive stab coverage is amazing, its defensive typing is absolutely horrible. 4x weak to rock, weak to water, electric, and ground when roosting. Due to its 4x resistance to rock it needs to be paired with a spinner no matter what, which limits a team, not much but it does. Kabutops has fantastic synergy with Moltres yes so it's usually plugged in there. That doesn't mean you don't have to spin before bringing Moltres back in? I honestly think besides Kabutops and Cryogonal the spinners in LU are bad. Foresight Chan... I seriously think that's a terrible pokemon same with Sandslash, Chan can just run so many better sets. Anyways, Kabutops is good enough with Moltres. Another point though behind the fact you must spin before bringing it in, which is harder than I believe you guys think, bulky rotom-n can be a pain in the butt to kill with every spinner including Kabutops. Sorry I digressed, the other point is that there are plenty of checks to Moltres as well as full counters. Lanturn, SpD Slowking, Munchlax, and Regirock, can all easily switch in and cripple it with Thunder Wave, Paralysis, or kill it with Scald. Rhydon is also a great check it shrugs off both stabs and can take Hp Grass with some SpD Investment, and KO through Sub with Rock Blast. Also, Aerodactyl, Accelgor, Feraligatr, Entei, Rotom, Kabutops, all also check Moltres, even Sceptile with Rock Slide. Moltres is no where near unkillable. Yeah it might be able to get a kill with a good amount of support but it's going to have a hard time sweeping with so many Water-type Pokemon, and scarf Electric-type Pokemon. Okay, here is an important point I don't think you guys have noticed. While Fire Blast and Hurricane respectively are insanely powerful, they too are double edged swords. They both have incredibly low accuracy. Sure they hit hard, but Hurricane has a 49% chance to hit twice in a row. Sure Moltres does freaking work vs Stall teams, it is probably the best stall breaker in the tier. However, I don't think it is at all broken, and do not think it is deserving of a ban. If I were voting I would say.

    Do Not Ban
     
  24. Wepwn

    Wepwn Wonderbread

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    Stick to Smogon please.

    It's clear you have not played this metgame enough to say that Foresight Chan is bad, yes the LO set is decent but in this meta Foresight Chan is right up there as the best spinner with Kabutops while Cryogonal is pretty bad. All you basically said was Moltres is easy to check cause of faster Pokemon in the tier, we all know that but what in the tier can take a hit from it barring those 4 mons you mentioned. Lanturn gets screwed on the switch in if you predict correctly and Slowking is not gonna appreciate a Hurricane after hazards. There are literally only 4 counters to Moltres and Slowking and Lanturn aren't 100% reliable and Munchlax is well you know...useless 80% of the time. Basically there are honestly 4 counters to Moltes in the entire tier and which two are NU and not very good in today's metagame. If you are running Munchlax just for Moltres you there's a problem...
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2013
  25. VuvuzelaΒzz

    VuvuzelaΒzz •Sage

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    I agree with the rest of your post, but I'd like to point out that Moltres only has one counter, and it's not LU by usage:
    [secret]252 SpA Choice Specs Moltres Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 193-228 (49.1 - 58.01%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Choice Specs Moltres Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Regirock: 160-190 (43.95 - 52.19%) -- 82.42% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Choice Specs Moltres Hidden Power Grass vs. 40 HP / 216+ SpD Lanturn: 198-234 (49.37 - 58.35%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Choice Specs Moltres Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 192-226 (42.29 - 49.77%) -- 37.11% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Choice Specs Moltres Hurricane vs. 136 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 153-181 (34.38 - 40.67%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock[/secret]

    The main point is that Moltres has a detrimental effect on stall in and of itself, irrespective of the rest of the metagame and it's threats. This isn't some "SAVE STALL!!! DOZENS OF STALL USERS ARE QUITTING LU ON POKEMON-ONLINE EVERY DAY!!!" petition. This is a discussion about the effect Moltres has on the metagame and it's place in it. The fact that it destroys stall, is a huge pain to balance and is effective against offense pushes it over the line in my eyes.

    I haven't responded to every point in this thread, as others have done so to most already. If someone replies to this, don't force me to make points that have already been covered. I will, but I really don't want to and it doesn't help your case.
     
  26. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    Moltres is not broken. It is indeed powerful, but it is not that difficult to manage. First of all, Stealth Rock is seen on 98% of all teams, which hampers it ability to switch in. Secondly, it gets worn down by faster mons like Rotom and Manectric. This isn't TornT, who can avoid all counters and gain a 1/3 of its HP back because of it.
     
  27. Wepwn

    Wepwn Wonderbread

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    Again, your logic is flawed. We already know there are faster Pokemon that Moltres and you can't just rely on Rocks to get rid of it as many have stated already, LU is arguably the easiest tier to spin away rocks also. Before going in to revenge kill Moltres you will HAVE to fodder something on your team before revenge killing it unless it misses. As long as its moves are hitting you should be winning most of the time. Please stop stating since Moltres is weak to Rocks and a few scarfers, it is easy to deal with because that is absolutely not true.
     
  28. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    I don't think Moltres is broken. Stealth Rock is the elepahnt in the room, meaning if your spinner can't do its thing then it really struggles. Using Roost can give the opponent time to either set up or switch in their check. And both of its STABs have unreliable accuracy. Hurricane has the same accuracy as Focus Blast, and tell me that's never let you down.

    I don't think Moltres is broken. It is one of LU's most threatening Pokémon, but it is manageable. It just takes skill to play around (so I suspect it will be banned, just like Landorus).
     
  29. Champ X

    Champ X The real Megauser

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    I've played a few LU matches recently, and I can say Moltres is almost impossible to outright kill. Scarfed 'mons can come in if you predict right, but Galvy gets hit hard by Flamethrower/Blast/Hurricane, and it does slaughter walls like Tangrowth. I'm not sure if Slowking can take a Hurricane easily, so I'll just leave it there. U-Turn also gives it a chance to get away safely when you switch in your Scarfers. On that note, regarding the Stealth Rocks argument, Moltres is somewhat nerved. Rocks are always around, but that doesn't mean you can't use Foresight Hitmonchan to aid 'Tres. Even with Rocks up, it can still hit hard. That's my two-cents anyway.
     
  30. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    I'm gonna say don't ban. Pretty much everything that needs to be said has already been brought up one way or another, so I'll keep it short. Moltres is a pokemon with great potential, but it falls short in certain aspects.
    First off is the obvious SR weakness. I know I know, it's been said many times but it should be taken into account that this puts a lot of pressure on the Moltres user. It's partially why a pokemon with excellent qualities like Volcarona can stay in OU (not trying to compare Moltres and Volcarona in any way, shape of form). Point is, Moltres requires considerable team support to be succesful. While Rapid Spin support may not seem like much to ask, and spinning is relatively easy in LU compared to other tiers it essentially gives your opponent a free turn to do whatever he wants. Ofcourse it also wastes the turn that your opponent used Stealth Rock, but more importantly it gives away all your momentum. In an offensive metagame like LU this is a big deal.

    Second is the STAB move accuracy issue. Hurricane is very powerful and possible the main reason that Moltres is suspected, but outside of Rain it is very inaccurate. We have to stay realistic here. Slowking, one of the most used pokes in the tier cannot take two LO Hurricanes with Stealth Rock up. However, taking into consideration that hitting two in a row is a 0.49% chance, and the fact that Moltres might not even use Hurricane as Slowking comes in, AND the fact that you need Stealth Rocks up to 2HKO from full health, it is very likely that Slowking will come out on top. Don't write a pokemon off as a counter to Moltres just because one of its moves can potentially 2HKO it if you're lucky. Again, Slowking is a very common sight and is very good at keeping Moltres at bay as well as many other threats.

    Thirdly Moltres is lacking speed-wise. It cannot come in on a CB Flare Blitz from Entei, because it does at least 50% meaning that after Stealth Rock Moltres dies. Kabutops and Feraligatr can do the same with priority in Aqua Jet. Krookodile and Sceptile both outspeed and kill Moltes with super-effective Rock moves, so Moltres can't come in on those. Even Modest Mismagius still outspeeds Moltres, and has a good chance to OHKO from full health with Life Orb Thunderbolt. Hitmonlee can use Unburden with either Normal Gem Fake Out of Endure Liechi Berry to outspeed and KO Moltres. Other pokes that outspeed and kill Moltress include Durant, Scarf Rotom-C, Sigyliph, Galvantula, Scarf Magneton, Aerodactyl, Cincinno, Jynx etc. Neither of these can switch in on Moltres, but the same goes the other way around is what I'm trying to say.
    Speed is a very important factor in determining if a pokemon is broken or not (examples are the Excadrill, Blaziken and Swift Swim + Drizzle ban; all of those are related to the pokemon 2HKO'ing nearly the whole meta but most importantly outspeeding the entire meta). Moltres is just not quite fast enough to be considered broken.

    Oh and bulky Aerodactyl with Roost is an amazing Moltres counter js >.>

    252 SpA Life Orb Moltres Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aerodactyl: 157-186 (43.13 - 51.09%) -- 5.08% chance to 2HKO

    That's only max HP, you can drop quite a lot of Speed to add more bulk if you like. Either way you outspeed and Roost, or outright KO Moltres with Rock Slide. Taunt + Roost is also a nice combination for crippling stall, especially on a fast poke like Aerodactyl.
     
  31. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    I really dislike this whole "rocks make it not broken", you're bringing something into the equation that is not consistent. Spinners, Natu, taunt, and sometimes your SR poke doesn't have a chance to set up the rocks at all (barring uxie, the only thing that can stop that would be something stupid CB absol or a crit)

    We need to look at what switches into this thing, and outside of munchlax (NU) Lanturn, Shaky at best as well as 3hko'd by hp grass, and just bad pokes such as magcargo, nothing takes 2 hits from this monster. I've seen someone here say "bad defensive typing" What. It has 3 weaknesses, it's unfortunate (for moltres, great for us) that it is 4x weak to rock, but that doesn't mean his typing is bad defensively. He resists: Fire, Grass (x4), Bug (x4), Fighting, and Steel. He resists 5 things (may have missed 1) and 2 of them he 4x resists. He only has 3 weaknesses, so his typing is terrible. His offensive prowess is unmatched in LU, even by the mighty ant, durant his base 125 SpA and base 120 STAB moves are insane, he has good defenses on both sides, and a good hp stat, no stat flaws. This thing is a monster and needs to be dealt with. Just because you can revenge kill him doesn't make him any less broken, Your scarf electric types also require tbolt, volt switch isn't enough to fell the beast and most of them don't carry it. Rotom-c tends to carry hp fire more now and manectric has switcheroo over tbolt. I vote ban.
     
  32. VuvuzelaΒzz

    VuvuzelaΒzz •Sage

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  33. New Breed

    New Breed ka$h

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    If I am running Stall and I see that my opponent is running Specs > LO Moltres and I am saying to myself thank the lord. Moltres' biggest upside when playing against Stall is the fact that it can't be stalled out due to immunity to Tspikes and Roost, making it incredibly hard to actually get damage on outside of SR, the second they show Specs it now becomes much easier to handle as most Stall teams should have at least one Protect user and a solid flying/fire resist. Specs does indeed have alot use vs offense but the majority of people asking for a ban are using the fact that it "wrecks" stall as an arguement.

    My point was the removing Moltres will not make stall "viable" or "good" it will still have an extremely hard time and the stall user will still have to play 2x better than they would normally have to if running offense vs well built offensive team. Let me tell you right now that a Sigilyph set of CM/Psyshock/Heat Wave/Roost (which is the set that should be used) will single handedly 6-0 many common stall builds and the ones it doesn't just outright 6-0 only needs a bit of prior damage on a couple of key walls.

    Lets also assume that the Durant user is running the optimal set for this metagame too, which would be LO or Lum Berry with Hone Claws/X-Scissor/Superpower/Thunder Fang. Now lets assume worst case scenario for the Durant user, Durant has Lum Berry and Qwilfish has Max Hp/Defence (which again is rare they almost always run a bit of speed for taunt) Qwilfish can basically come in and take damage once before it just ouright losing to Durant and that basically limits you to getting no Spikes what so ever as when Qwilfish comes in it must decide to either Pain Split and maybe live another turn or get a Spike and die. If the Durant user also just clicks Thunder Fang as soon as the Qwilfish comes in (which honestly isn't a magical prediciton lets be real Qwilfish stall has one option or they lose it's simple Risk vs Reward) well then there goes your Durant "hard counter" because next time you will lose to Durant 1v1.

    Let me give you a list of Pokemon that can just completely destroy common stall builds, CM Roost Sigilyph, HC Durant, Specs Typhlosion, CB Druddigon, Mixed Druddigon (used it and it's completely viable), CB Aggron, SD Bisharp destroys all the builds without a Hitmonchan or Poliwrath (which you would be surprised is alot of them), Ebelt Krookodile to an extent and of course LO Moltres. Now considering how popular Spike Stack HO is and how Stall is basically limited to two Spinners in Defensive Hitmonchan and Cryogonal (Cryogonal will not spin w/o toxic spikes vs Tomb HO btw) you can see how extremely easy it is to just set up a couple layers and use offensive pressure to decimate many stall teams with common Pokemon.

    You see thats where you a wrong, you can't check every Pokemon in the tier it's just not possible and removing Motres from the metagame will still not allow for everything to be checked and you will still get run over time and time again by any well put together offensive team and that is the reason why stall is "nearly unviable" Removing Moltres will not solve this and metagame will be exactly the same just with one less bird!!!

    The fact that you can't consistantly beat every threat or combination is the EXACT reason why stall struggles lol, people seem to to think that removing Moltres will somehow magically let you check everything but honestly it won't.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2013
  34. ZoroDark

    ZoroDark i know everything

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    But yeah Moltres is a huge threat, and while saying it singlehandedly makes stall/defensive oriented teams unviable is an exaggeration, it's definitely one of the thriving forces behind the offensive nature of our current LU tier. Yes, it's BW2 and you can't check every pokemon, but in a balanced metagame there should be a certain amount of balanced and stall teams. Moltres either causes you to run some of its few counters who don't really have any other niche (Munchlax, Flareon, Regirock, lol Macgargo) or sac a pokemon and then revenge it. It's also pretty bulky, unlike some other stall breakers. Its typing leaves it with some nasty weaknesses to Water and Electric , but it can switch in freely on common Grass and Bug attacks no matter what. I'm leaning ban atm.
     
  35. Laurel

    Laurel Well-Known Member

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    No? Please read again? Stick to Smogon? I play LU more than RU. Please. Foresight Chan is bad. The only niche it offers in LU over RU is the ability to check Bisharp and Krookodile, while Cryogonal is still a beast? I did not basically say that. I said Moltres is good but not broken, and it has several hard counters as well as checks. You read honestly, one line in my statement. It's stab are still extremely unreliable and miss more often that you'd like. It is still x4 weak to rocks, and has awful defensive typing. How is Lanturn and SpD Slowking not 100% reliable? Because you have them die checking other things?? Because they are 100% reliable especially Slowking, it has Slack Off and a ton of SpD, Calm Mind versions easily set up in Moltres' face. You also ignored my entire argument about how it's easily crippled? Seriously it takes a twave from Uxie and it's screwed. Sure it can run dumb sub roost sets, but that would not even be a set in the argument for the reason of banning Moltres. Can we all agree the subject is this set.

    Moltres @ Life Orb
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
    Timid Nature
    - Fire Blast
    - Hurricane
    - Hidden Power [Grass]
    - Roost

    Honestly the only time I have ever had problems with Moltres I have run stall. Yes it is a pain in the side, but even with stall it is manageable, and more often than not, it's inaccuracy again lets me kill it. Most of my teams naturally check it, whether it be a Scarf Electric type, a pokemon with Aqua Jet, or a scarf Emboar. Again I know Moltres is a very powerful Pokemon, capable of doing a lot of damage to a lot of teams. However, I do not think it should be banned.
     
  36. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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  37. VuvuzelaΒzz

    VuvuzelaΒzz •Sage

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    Last edited: Sep 11, 2013
  38. Um Hello?

    Um Hello? Member

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    o.o

    It spins on every ghost, threatens out Tomb, due to drain punch and Rotom + Mismagius take a lot as well. it isn't going to seriously dent a team (or maybe sweep, but meh) like SD Kabutops but it's perfectly viable,


    One thing I've noticed after reading some more posts I'm going to go ahead and say that if you're arguing that LU is any easy tier to spin in (relatively) so SR can't be used as an argument, don't go on to say something isn't a counter because it gets 2HKO'd after rocks please ;_;


    I'm still sticking with ban, tbh.
     
  39. VuvuzelaΒzz

    VuvuzelaΒzz •Sage

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    Everything that is a guaranteed 2HKO after rocks that's been posted is 2HKO'd a certain percentage of the time without them except fully special defensive Regirock, meaning those are not not counters anyways. The fact not every team runs a spinner and the fact that you don't choose when you have to take on Moltres in order to spin the rocks away before it happens just makes it even worse for anything trying to earn itself the title of a counter to it.
     
  40. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf Active Member

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    Just going to throw a couple things into the discussion here.

    If your primary answer to Moltres is Lanturn you should be running Protect in your fourth slot (popularized by user Blarajan). Lanturn's fourth move is always pretty "whatever fits your team best" and Protect allows it to come in, even on an HP Grass and have a good shot at forcing it out. Over the course of the match its also pretty useful for whoring Leftovers on a Pokemon with no recovery.

    Spinning also isn't as easy as you make out for Moltres if your name isn't Foresight Chan. Let's say I'm running a Mismagius or a Rotom, and you've got Kabutops (arguably best and most common spinner for Moltres). You SD on the switch and KO me with Aqua Jet. Sounds like great position to spin right? Problem is, now I'm bringing in something that will force out your Kabutops at risk of a KO and create offensive momentum for me. Kabutops isn't the easiest thing to switch in in the first place which severely limits its ability to be in a position to spin a second time, even assuming my offensive momentum falls apart. This obviously doesn't apply to stall because lol offensive momentum on stall.

    Anyway just wanted to throw those couple things into the discussion, offensive momentum can stop spins even if you KO the ghost, and Protect Lanturn should be used if its your Moltres counter.


    Oh also not going to deny that Foresight Chan is a good spinner, but I think Laurel is arguing its a bad Pokemon, which I agree with, because its piss weak and a waste of a team slot outside of spinning.

    Slight comment on Slowking, its still a pretty damn good check because a) you have to have Stealth Rock, b) you have to both predict the switch in, and hit the Hurricane, c) you have to hit a second Hurricane after that, and d) Regenerator and Slack Off mean its not a one and done check.

    Relevant calcs:
    252 SpAtk Life Orb Moltres Hurricane vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Slowking (+SpDef) : 42.64% - 50.51%
    2-3 hits to KO
    252 SpAtk Life Orb Moltres Hurricane vs 252 HP/144 SpDef Slowking (+SpDef) : 46.45% - 54.82%
    2-3 hits to KO
    252 SpAtk Life Orb Moltres Hidden Power Grass vs 40 HP/216 SpDef Lanturn (+SpDef) : 43.39% - 51.12%
    After entry hazards: 224 - 255 (55.86% - 63.59%)
    Note that two rounds of Leftovers (switch in and Protect) negates the SR damage.
     
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