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[BW2] Suspect Discussion: Moltres

Discussion in 'Gen 5 LU' started by Tyki, Sep 8, 2013.

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  1. Um Hello?

    Um Hello? Member

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    EDITLOL, I thought you meant they beat hitmonchan 1v1, but looking at it now it looks like you meant they beat Moltres 1v1?


    Just because 2 types are "common" does not make a pokemon any less broken or any more broken - not really anyway.

    6 Water Pokemon in top 50 LU Usage
    6 Electric Pokemon in top 50 LU Usage

    Pretty average I would say, considering dual type Pokemon before someone recites how many different types there are. Also, out of the water Pokemon only 2 can take on, by take on I mean not get absolutely smashed by Hurricane or HP Grass. And out of the Electric Pokemon only 1 can take on Fire Blasts and not really care about it too much. Now, that 1 electric and 1 of those 2 waters is the same Pokemon, so out of your 'common' water and electric types only 2 can switch in.

    To the Pokemon that "beat it 1 v1"

    Galvantula:

    252 Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Hitmonchan (+Atk) Drain Punch vs 0 HP/0 Def Galvantula: 44.84% - 53.02%

    Manectric:

    252 Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Hitmonchan (+Atk) Drain Punch vs 0 HP/0 Def Manectric (+Def) : 81.49% - 96.44%

    Slowking:

    Obviously loses, not going to bother grabbing a calc.

    Lanturn:

    252 Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Hitmonchan (+Atk) Drain Punch vs 40 HP/252 Def Lanturn (+Def) : 41.9% - 49.38%

    Archeops: If you wanted to stay in for whatever reason, with almost any prior damage gets knocked below Defeatist,

    252 Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Hitmonchan (+Atk) Mach Punch vs 0 HP/0 Def Archeops: 43.64% - 51.89%

    Rotom-N: (Foresight)

    252 Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Hitmonchan (+Atk) Drain Punch vs 0 HP/0 Def Rotom: 85.89% - 101.24%

    Rotom-C:

    252 Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Hitmonchan (+Atk) Drain Punch vs 0 HP/0 Def Rotom-C: 65.98% - 77.59%

    Druddigon:

    252 Atk Fist Plate Iron Fist Hitmonchan (+Atk) Drain Punch vs 252 HP/0 Def Druddigon: 51.12% - 60.34%

    Assuming no speed, which is unlikely imo, there should be at the very least 12 Speed EV's just to creep.


    What they can do back to Hitmonchan:

    Galvantula:

    ModestScarf: 252 SpAtk Galvantula (+SpAtk) Thunder vs 32 HP/0 SpDef Hitmonchan: 65.06% - 77.11%

    TimidScarf: 252 SpAtk Galvantula Thunder vs 32 HP/0 SpDef Hitmonchan: 59.44% - 70.28%
    2 hits to KO

    Modest LO: 252 SpAtk Life Orb Galvantula (+SpAtk) Thunder vs 32 HP/0 SpDef Hitmonchan: 84.74% - 100.4%

    Timid LO: 252 SpAtk Life Orb Galvantula Thunder vs 32 HP/0 SpDef Hitmonchan: 77.11% - 91.16%

    Timid Specs: 252 SpAtk Choice Specs Galvantula Thunder vs 32 HP/0 SpDef Hitmonchan: 88.35% - 104.82%

    Modest Specs: 252 SpAtk Choice Specs Galvantula (+SpAtk) Thunder vs 32 HP/0 SpDef Hitmonchan: 97.99% - 115.66%

    Manectric

    TimidScarf: 252 SpAtk Manectric Thunderbolt vs 32 HP/0 SpDef Hitmonchan: 49.8% - 59.04%

    Modest Scarf: 252 SpAtk Manectric (+SpAtk) Thunderbolt vs 32 HP/0 SpDef Hitmonchan: 54.22% - 64.26%

    Timid LO: 252 SpAtk Life Orb Manectric Thunderbolt vs 32 HP/0 SpDef Hitmonchan: 64.66% - 76.71%

    Modest LO: 252 SpAtk Life Orb Manectric (+SpAtk) Thunderbolt vs 32 HP/0 SpDef Hitmonchan: 70.28% - 83.53%

    Timid Specs: 252 SpAtk Choice Specs Manectric Thunderbolt vs 32 HP/0 SpDef Hitmonchan: 74.7% - 87.95%

    Modest Specs: 252 SpAtk Choice Specs Manectric (+SpAtk) Thunderbolt vs 32 HP/0 SpDef Hitmonchan: 81.93% - 96.39%

    Slowking

    Hitmonchan loses so you're switching out anyway imo.

    Lanturn

    0 SpAtk Lanturn Thunderbolt vs 32 HP/0 SpDef Hitmonchan: 30.52% - 36.14%

    Scald does less but chance of burn, but imo if you need the burn to beat hitmonchan you aren't beating it 1v1...

    Archeops

    OHKO's every time except when Gem is used and in defeatist,

    252 Atk Defeatist Archeops Acrobatics vs 32 HP/0 Def Hitmonchan: 93.98% - 110.84%

    Rotom-N

    LO Shadow Ball and Tbolt both 2HKO.

    Scarf Shadow Ball never 2HKO's and Scarf Tbolt has a chance to.

    Rotom-C

    Scarf Leaf Storm: 252 SpAtk Rotom-C Leaf Storm vs 32 HP/0 SpDef Hitmonchan: 72.69% - 85.94%

    I don't know the last time I saw a non-scarf Rotom-C so won't use LO/Specs calcs, and without doing a test ingame or etc I believe after drain punch recovery leaf storm doesn't even 2HKO, not that it matters as Drain Punch + Mach Punch kills Rotom-C anyway.

    Druddigon

    Obviously kills with a banded stab move, not going to calc, but it can't switch in on a drain punch.


     
  2. blunder

    blunder Well-Known Member

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    do you call your pathetic ass posts contribution? and his links were necessary to show that you are indeed retarded and that Moltres is not getting suspected because Smogon did it more than a year ago...

    Furthermore I should address your post before others read it and acquire some of your stupidity.

    First of all, Foresight Hitmonchan is not dead weight at all when it's not spinning. If it's not spinning in general, that means rocks are not on the field and Moltres is not "easy pickings" Let's go through your list of pokemon that "beat Moltres"

    Galvantula - So what, you sac something then bring it in? nice counter bro
    Manectric - No one uses this shit
    Slowking- 252 SpA Life Orb Moltres Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 116+ SpD Slowking: 187-222 (47.58 - 56.48%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    Lanturn - 68% chance to die to two hp grasses after SR and it's incredibly easy to predict it unless they have another water type which most teams do not.
    Archeops - who uses this? takes 64% from fire blast or hurricane
    Rotom-C - Dies to anything barring HP Grass. And Scarf Rotom-C can just be set up on by something like Lilligant lol...
    Rotom-N - Takes 63-75 from Hurricane so I guess if you need something that can switch in once then sure
    CB Drudd - Has chance to die from LO Hurricane After rocks

    With that, please stop posting. Every post I've seen from you is dog shit. You even brought up the term Offensive Celebi in the Landorus Suspect Thread....
     
  3. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    This man has better suspect posts than you can dream of. Just saying.

    Anyway petty arguments aside. I've been swayed on the Moltres issue tbh. Checks I believed Moltres had have been proven extremely unreliable in many cases (relying on some very risky prediction or Hurricane misses). I had the idea that pivoting around Regen Slowking can make it easier to manage but when I realised Hurricane does around 40% to Aggron that idea was pretty well blown out the water. Its damage output prevents and defensive checking and reduces to revenge killing, pretty much. You can't really switch anything in safely to Moltres even when it just spams Hurricane, unless you run Lanturn, then you're playing HP Grass Roulette. Specs is honestly the set I reference whenever I talk about Moltres, I think its Specs set is by far and away the most brainless and powerful set it has.
    At this point I'm leaning to ban Moltres quite strongly.
     
  4. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    Ehhh this isn't true at all. Many pokemon can take a hit from Moltres and KO in return. Kabutops for example can switch in on either STAB move, and if Moltres came in on Stealth Rock and takes Life Orb damage (let's be fair here, that's the most common scenario) it is forced in a checkmate as Aqua Jet kills it, and SR will kill it if it switches out. Unless you sneak a Rapid Spin in there somehow, which is unlikely.

    The metagame is way more offensive than you make it out to be, which gives Moltres a very hard time to keep up. Many threats can outspeed and KO Moltres, or live any hit and retaliate back. Dr. Doom posted a whole list of examples, which you somehow completely missed the point >.> They are checks, not counters. He meant that Moltres cannot be sent in against them and win. There's ofcourse a long list of pokes that Moltres can beat 1 vs 1 as well, but that's just how this game works I'm afraid :x Moltres is balanced enough to be in LU imo.
     
  5. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    @ Um Hello you can expect rocks to be on your opponents side of the field and not your own when running Moltres because as i've said before the other team most likely isn't going to be putting as many resources into Spinning than you are.

    And Foresight Chan isn't deadweight, reliable check to many Special attackers, hits very hard with fist plate, ko'ing most offensive pokemon in 2 hits with Drain + Mach combo.

    And also you don't have to build a whole team around Moltres, the most you can do really is have a Spinner and a trapper (Hitmonchan + Tomb are a very good pairing for this) both of which are useful outside of their main role.

    Also to the people bringing up the Accuracy issue for Moltres, don't forget that Hurricane is as likely to Confuse the defending mon as it is to miss, and confusion can give you a free turn to miss, or force a pokemon out if it doesnt want to risk hitting itself in confusion and being 2hko'd, and fire blast can burn, severaly crippling some checks, so you can't look at accuracy without considering the secondary effects.

    @Liarliar Kabutops gets ohko'd by HP Grass and takes over 50% from Hurricane.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2013
  6. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    OK Blunder seriously, there is no need to act like that. I was out of order with the post I made - that's why I deleted it. I know some of my posts have been poor, especially on suspect discussions. I'm sorry about that, and I'll do my best to improve.

    I do not believe that a Pokémon needs surefire counters to be manageable in a tier. I can name at least one Pokémon in each tier (bar Ubers obv) that has no true counters, but isn't broken. I think Moltres falls in that category. I have used it on quite a few LU teams I made, and at no point has it ever completely dominated the opponent's team. I've tried every set apart from SubRoost Toxic - I even tried an Agility sweeper set. Life Orb and Specs Moltres would usually get at least one KO per match. But I've had similar results with many of LU's wallbreakers. Choice Band Aggron for example, can 2HKO everything bar Poliwrath (and Quagsire I guess, but I hardly ever see that), and that's not broken.

    Reasons I don't think Moltres is broken:

    X4 weakness to Stealth Rock
    Innacurate main STABs
    Good but not great speed leaves it outsped by a fair few Pokémon
    Limited switch in opportunities - middling bulk coupled with said Stealth Rock weakness make it tricky to switch in, since most strong neutral moves will take a big bite out of its health. Immunity to Ground, and resistances to Grass and Fighting all sound nice, but Moltres still has to be careful switching in on said Grass types: Sceptile commonly runs HP Rock (source), Lilligant too uses HP Rock often (source) Rotom-C has Electric STAB. Ground types often run Rock moves too for coverage, as do Fighting types.
    It gets quickly worn down, especially if using a Life Orb. Against hyper offensive teams it often struggles to find space to use Roost
    Outsped by most of LU's Electric types, all of which can reliably OHKO it (although none can safely switch in)
    Quite a few Pokémon can also force it out fairly easily, even though again most can't switch in. Once it's out, it often has a hard job coming back in again.
    Lanturn is not the only counter - Aerodactly can counter it too:
    252 SpA Choice Specs Moltres Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aerodactyl: 181-213 (60.13 - 70.76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Moltres: 612-724 (190.65 - 225.54%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    Even with Rocks, Moltres can't OHKO while Aerodactyl outruns and always OHKOs. Archeops can accomplish a similar task, although Archeops is rare in LU.

    I was using past stats because LU doesn't have stats for September.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2013
  7. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    The reason I dislike bringing rocks into suspect discussions is that I think it's the same as predictions tbh. The fact remains that w/o the rocks damage, kabutops/gatr can't ohko w/ a AJ, pretty much everyone poke (outside of like deoxys) has checks, it's counters that are the problem. Kabutops can switch into moltres's stab moves (it takes like 70% from hurricane), but hp grass is a thing and if rocks can always be spun away later presuming that moltres came in on rocks, which is not always the case, people almost never bring moltres in unless rocks are off the field.
     
  8. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    Well thanks for stating the obvious, but it also doesn't get OHKO'd by either STAB move and kills Moltres back reliably with priority. Assuming Rocks are up on both sides, Kabutops always beats Moltres 1 vs 1. Your argument is like saying Specs Slowking beats Specs Rotom-C because Fire Blast OHKO's and Psyshock 2HKO's. In practice Rotom-C outspeeds Slowking and wins. Kabutops is a check to Moltres because it can't switch in on HP Grass, but still a check. Can we not theorymon please.

    EDIT: Point is, Kabutops is a viable check to Moltres. I hope that we can at least agree on that.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2013
  9. Omfuga216

    Omfuga216 Banned

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    That literally made the least bit of sense in the world. For one thing, if you have a reliable spinner (or natu), it is not that hard for rocks to be off the field. Even so, moltres outspeeds kautops whereas slowking doesnt outspeed rotom-c. Also, moltres will OHKO before kabutops will OHKO, and kabutops should NOT be able to OHKO if rocks aren't on the field. Like, this thread for all the idiots defending their stupid stealth rock case should just be "moltres BASICALLY only has 160 HP because rocks are always on the field gg I win. You need to stop acting like rocks are so hard to spin, and even though they may be hard-ish to spin sometimes, most of the time they wont even BE paired with a spin-blocker, but rocks wont be up "most of the time." I'm not going to get into another stupid rapid spin debate. At least use a sensible comparison rather than rotom-c which will not only outspeed slowking but always OHKO. Those are 2 conditions kabutops does NOT have over moltres (with ajet)
     
  10. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    Don't you be being harassing people now.

    The problem I have with Moltres is how easy it is to play around. Sure, Specs has a lot of power, but if we take out prediction when handling Moltres, then we make Moltres look more brainless than it actually is. Specs Moltres gets worn down easily, and trying to completely take prediction out of the equation is bullshit, because some prediction is needed so you are not clicking random moves. Even a noob player uses prediction: switch a Flying-type into a Fighting or Ground-type, and switch a Water into a Fire-type. Take prediction out of the equation, and we are making mindless decisions. Stealth Rock is seen on 99% of all good competitive teams, so trying to take it out of the equation is trying to remove a key characteristic of a Pokemon. Getting a Choiced Moltres in safely is hard, and it cannot take multiple hits either. What is it switching into: Rotom-C's Leaf Storm? Rhydon's Earthquake? Moltres relies on not taking too much damage on switch-in, not missing, a Rapid Spinner spinning away Stealth Rock, and there being no faster opponent to revenge it, to wreak havoc on opposing teams. Sure, a Pokemon is likely to die, but so are they against Choice Band Durant, and pretty much any wallbreaker in the tier. I think you are overemphasizing on its power and not taking into consideration its flaws.
     
  11. WizzleKidd

    WizzleKidd Wizzlin' PO since Feb '11

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    Woah... seriously can those who still believe Moltres is broken FULLY reply to Texas Cloverleaf's post (#70) in detail disproving the facts instead of dodging it please? That post sums up nearly everything yet pro-banners won't reply to it. Maybe then I would consider Moltres being ban worthy.
    ^^^^^^^

    Already posted my thoughts but there's too much exaggeration. Is specs Moltres REALLY netting 2-3 mons per game? Well maybe if your opponent has a terrible team that has no fire/flying resists, no priority, no pokes faster than 90, does not know how to predict, or has a check with a tiny bit of bulk to cripple it. (glare, t-wave, toxic, stealth rocklol)

    Hurricane is indeed easily spammable because only 3 types resist it but the chance of hitting 2-3 times is really low so that should be fully taken into account. That's its main move!! IF hurricane had 90% accuracy then that would be a problem. Don't mention rain, otherwise you lose an effective fire blast.

    Stealth rocks, oh them stealth rocks..... since Durant is being brought up so much, unlike Moltres it requires much less centralizing team support due to it not being x4 S.R weak, being faster, stronger and physically bulkier.

    With specs you can really find yourself losing momentum locking yourself into the wrong move. There are many examples that take advantage of this and can set up on it.
    edit: forgot to say because of this, Moltres would be switching in and out constantly and you all know what that would mean.

    Nitpicks:
    If specs is the apparent suspect then why are its flaws (losing momentum by locking into a move) being backed by that LO Moltres can deal with it? This is exactly what happened in the Landorus thread. Which is very bad. It can't hold 2 items plus LO kills itself and lacks possible ohko's.

    Apparently the fact that many pokemon, scarfed or not can outspeed/revenge Moltres is a bad argument.. but in Durant's case it is not a bad argument at all???? Hilarious.

    Moltres can pretty much 2hko the entire tier, we must ban it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2013
  12. Um Hello?

    Um Hello? Member

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    Hi, as I stated previously just because one does not reply to a post does not mean that one does not an answer or reply to it, as far as I can see you have not replied to every pro-ban post here, therefore you do not have a solid argument for not-banning Moltres, correct?

    Have you actually read the thread? Or do you just Ctrl + F and see if anyone has replied to Texas' post?

    You've misunderstood yet again here, the point isn't that the accuracy is below average the point is a Moltres spamming hurricanes can seriously dent and sweep some teams if the RNG allows you to hit the moves, next OHKO moves will be unbanned because "the chance of hitting 2-3 times is really low" sounds good right?

    Basically any slightly powerful Special move OHKO's Durant, moreso, for Durant to seriously threaten a team it requires a turn of setting up a hone claws, it is also possible to burn, crippling it.

    The set largely under discussion is LO, and is nothing like the Landorus discussion tyvm, the point is, which I believe you would understand if you read more posts beyond Texas' which you seem to like referring to in so many of your posts, however some other users are stating that possible OTHER sets are Scarf or Specs, with Weavile (note, an individual user, not the collective group of people posting on this thread) is stating that he considers the SpecsMoltres set more threatening then the LO set, I'm confused about how you got this confused tbfh.


    I'm going to reply to the sarcasm at the end of your post just to finish with it, the point IS NOT that it can 2HKO the tier alone, or a few more Pokemon would either be banned or being suspected, the point is that it outspeeds a decent portion of the tier, and 2HKO's some of the tiers best walls.


    As you are SO, SO, SO, desperate for someone to reply to this post I will try my best, purely to satisfy your desires.



    The point of Roost is more to use against something that can't do a lot back to Moltres; either resisted/weak STAB's or a status like burn, or sleep when you have something sleeping.

    Quite prediction heavy, not particularly relevant on Moltres' brokenness.

    Moltres has better mixed bulk I'm pretty sure, doesn't require a turn to set-up, -Durant doesn't technically need to, but meh, most people will.

    Offensively, Fire/Flying is a much stronger STAB combo then Bug/Steel.

    But I'm so, so bored of Durant comparisons.

    What if you're clicking Hurricane anyway? and if it does hit one hurricane are you staying in to potentially die to the second? and if you ARE switching out, are you willing to potentially let something die just for regenerator?



    Hopefully you can now move on with your life, until someone (probably Texas again) replies to my post - or others.
     
  13. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf Active Member

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    Good guess :p

    I'm just going to respond to the responses I disagree with, the rest of my points remain in my other post (#70)

     
  14. Haughts

    Haughts New Member

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    Moltres Log
    Haughts sent out Nygax! (Spiritomb)
    Pointed stones dug into Nygax!

    The foe's Hitmonchan used Foresight!
    The foe's Hitmonchan identified Nygax!

    Nygax restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
    The foe's Hitmonchan's health is sapped by leech seed.
    Nygax regained health!

    Start of turn 8
    Haughts called Nygax back!
    Haughts sent out Gypsy! (Venomoth)
    Pointed stones dug into Gypsy!

    The foe's Hitmonchan used Rapid Spin!
    Gypsy lost 32 HP! (9% of its health)
    The foe's Hitmonchan blew away Leech Seed!
    The foe's Hitmonchan blew away Stealth Rock!

    Gypsy restored a little HP using its Black Sludge!

    Start of turn 9
    *Player called Hitmonchan back!
    *Player sent out Moltres!

    The foe's Moltres is exerting its Pressure!
    Gypsy used Substitute!
    Gypsy made a substitute!

    Gypsy restored a little HP using its Black Sludge!

    Start of turn 10
    The foe's Moltres used Fire Blast!
    It's super effective!
    Gypsy's substitute faded!
    The foe's Moltres is hurt by its Life Orb!

    Gypsy used Quiver Dance!
    Gypsy's Sp. Att. rose!
    Gypsy's Sp. Def. rose!
    Gypsy's Speed rose!

    Gypsy restored a little HP using its Black Sludge!

    Start of turn 11
    Gypsy used Disable!
    The foe's Moltres's Fire Blast was disabled!

    The foe's Moltres's Fire Blast is disabled!

    Gypsy restored a little HP using its Black Sludge!

    Start of turn 12
    Gypsy used Substitute!
    Gypsy made a substitute!

    The foe's Moltres used Hurricane!
    It's super effective!
    Gypsy's substitute faded!

    The foe's Moltres is hurt by its Life Orb!

    Gypsy restored a little HP using its Black Sludge!

    Start of turn 13
    Gypsy used Substitute!
    Gypsy made a substitute!

    The foe's Moltres used Hurricane!
    It's super effective!
    Gypsy's substitute faded!

    The foe's Moltres is hurt by its Life Orb!

    Gypsy restored a little HP using its Black Sludge!

    Start of turn 14
    Gypsy used Substitute!
    Gypsy made a substitute!

    The foe's Moltres used Hurricane!
    It's super effective!
    Gypsy's substitute faded!

    The foe's Moltres is hurt by its Life Orb!

    Gypsy restored a little HP using its Black Sludge!

    Start of turn 15
    Gypsy used Bug Buzz!
    It's not very effective...
    The foe's Moltres lost 26% of its health!

    The foe's Moltres used Hurricane!
    It's super effective!
    Gypsy lost 29 HP! (8% of its health)
    Gypsy fainted!

    The foe's Moltres is hurt by its Life Orb!

    The foe's Moltres is no longer disabled!
    Haughts sent out Nygax! (Spiritomb)
    Pointed stones dug into Nygax!

    Start of turn 16
    Nygax used Shadow Sneak!
    The foe's Moltres lost 15% of its health!

    The foe's Moltres used Roost!
    The foe's Moltres landed on the ground!
    The foe's Moltres regained health!

    Start of Turn 17
    Nygax used Shadow Sneak!
    The foe's Moltres lost 14% of its health!

    The foe's Moltres used Fire Blast!
    Nygax lost 196 HP! (64% of its health)
    The foe's Moltres is hurt by its Life Orb![/HIDE]

    Now, I use sub disable veno in almost all my LU battles, and I just want to point out that every time I try to sub down to make moltres miss hurricane, this happens. It does not miss. I just thought that might be relevant, as well as it doing 64% to specially defensive spiritomb, but we all already know that.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 14, 2013
  15. Hot N Cold

    Hot N Cold Active Member

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    no ban, i agree with your opinion, free moltres side pretty much

    I dont play exactly LU, just RU but both tiers are very similar except for some few mons, the things that makes LU moltres are x4 Stealth Rock weakness - bad accuracy because Hurricane and Fire Blast, on the game stuff like Slowking are extremely good checks to Moltres, another thing is that Moltres is not so fast to sweep a entire team, and another offensive stuff put a lot of pressure against Moltres like Rotom, Kabutops or Durant, if you add the Stealth Rocks this just limits a lot the switch to Moltres, also in the best case when Moltres got momentum and out Stealth Rock on the field, you have a good chance to fail, missing an Hurricane (1/3 times actually).

    So just some guys leaves theorymon :smile:
     
    Funbro likes this.
  16. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf Active Member

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    Just going to throw out before people discount HnC for "zomg RU isnt LU lololol" that in regards to Moltres the Pokemon that are relevant to it are pretty much the same, the only real differences being that LU has Krookodile as a revenge killer and Ru doesn't, and Hitmonchan is popular here.
     
  17. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    I have to say I do agree with most of the arguments, but I also disagree about a fair amount of things. I feel that people are grossly overestimating the ghosts of the tier to be better at spinblocking than they are honestly giving them credit for. As well when a spinner gets sent out, it's usually immediately vs the setter, thus you have to send out the spinblocker. Crustle has problems with both Kabutops/Hitmonchan, Steelix has a problem with Chan not Kabutops. Aero has a problem with Kabutops more often than not depending on damage rolls. Hitmonchan + Kabutops both fear Uxie to an extent depending on the set. Especially with Kabutops being a 3HKO to Uxie. Aggron, Regirock, Pinsir are all workable mons in LU for having the hazards up and have good match-ups depending on the spinner you wish to face. Otherwise it's just as easy for a spinner to just attack outright to kill the setter, or spin and take out the hazards. Again this is all based on the spinner vs setter match up and how it involves the spinblocker and it's needed use.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2013
  18. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    It saddens me that this has to be said. It's not like the difference is nearly as drastic as the one between our NU and yours, either.
     
  19. WizzleKidd

    WizzleKidd Wizzlin' PO since Feb '11

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  20. Um Hello?

    Um Hello? Member

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    I'm sorry if you took offence.



    How much longer until the suspect is over? It's been 6 days and if I'm honest I think there isn't much else to say beyond the same arguments getting repeated

    [No-Ban:

    Accuracy
    SR
    Avg Speed]

    [Pro-Ban

    Breaks basically every Pokemon in the tier
    Accuracy doesn't matter with luck - a luck based meta isn't good
    Nice stats even beyond Sp.Atk
    LU easiest tier to spin in]

    More pro-ban because I'm pro-ban, biased ypls
     
  21. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    I think suspect discussions have to be open for at least two weeks but don't quote me on that :x
     
  22. Big Bad Booty Daddy

    Big Bad Booty Daddy Big Poppa Pump

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    Suspects are to be kept up for a minimum of 2 weeks, and no longer than 6 weeks. Sorry just had to put that in. TierLeaderWoopSwag. Continue discussing.

    Also, I figure I'd add in my personal input about this suspect! Anyways! Let's go.

    In my opinion, the best set Moltres can run is a Life Orb 3 Attack set with Roost. Looking like
    Moltres @ Life Orb
    Trait: Pressure
    Nature: Timid (+Spe, -Atk)
    EV's: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    - Fire Blast
    - HP Grass
    - Hurricane
    - Roost[/HIDE]

    With Moltres having very good Offensive STAB and in a Speed tier good enough to outpace walls. It's capable of netting 2HKOs on every Pokemon in the tier. Of course, Lanturn/Munchlax aren't 2HKO'd, but nothing that outpaces Moltres is able to come in and take a hit, then threaten it out if you're running the Life Orb set.

    Also, we have to get something fucking straight about Rapid Spinning. You guys are acting like Rapid Spinning can only be stopped by Ghost-type Pokemon. Offensive pressure is almost as effective as having a Ghost-type on your team, combining both makes it very hard to Spin away hazards, I don't think you can say "It's easiest to spin in __ Tier," Because if you can keep offensive pressure on the opponent's team, it's very hard to spin in general, let alone having a Ghost-type and turning things into a 50/50 of Rapid Spinning or Attacking move/Foresight. Alright now that that's out of the way, let me get into why I don't think Moltres is broken.

    Moltres is without a doubt one of the strongest Pokemon in LU. Like I stated before, Fire Blast/Hurricane/HP Grass have the potential to 2HKO the entire tier besides the previously mentioned Lanturn/Munchlax, Lanturn has actually risen in usage because of its ability to beat Moltres most of the time, considering it's a lot more viable than Munchlax. Anyways, most of the top Pokemon in the tier with Speed are able to outpace Moltres and OHKO. Pokemon like Galvantula, Sceptile, Accelgor, Krookodile, Scarfed Rotom-C, Manectric, and 90% of Durant (assuming they're running Rock Slide or Thunder Fang.) I could name more Pokemon, like Scolipede/Scarf Braviary, but I only took Pokemon from the top 40, which says a lot. With all of these Pokemon in the Top 40 that are able to come in and OHKO the best set, (We're discussing the Life Orb set), that's a big deal. Also, two of the best Pokemon in the tier in Kabutops and Entei, are able to force it out with strong or super effective priority.

    The 4x Stealth Rocks weakness is a very big deal too, not as important as stated by a lot of people before, but still goes against Moltres a heavy amount. If Moltres comes in on Rocks and isn't able to Roost after netting a kill, and if one of the 12 Pokemon from out of the Top 40 come in and threaten it out, you have to rely on spinning to bring Moltres back in. From what I know of LU, it's a very offensive tier, and in my experience, LU is one of the easiest tiers to keep offensive momentum in. Spinning isn't as easy as everyone makes it out to me, having to win 50/50s (Attacking/Setting Up/Using Foresight the incoming Ghost-type or using Rapid Spin) in order to get rid of hazards also isn't even a guarantee, even if you get rid of the Ghost-type Pokemon, you just gave your opponent the ability to switch in and regain offensive momentum to keep his/her hazards by pressuring your spinner out with a Pokemon that could outpace and OHKO the opposing spinner. Even if you get rid of hazards, the 12 Pokemon mentioned before (Which are all fully viable and that's shown to an extent by them being inside the Top 40) are still able to come in and revenge, even when Moltres is from full HP.

    I 100% understand why people believe that Moltres is broken, and I understand people will bring up Scarf/Specs as "better" sets, but those movesets rely a lot more on getting rid of hazards. With a Choice item, Moltres' longevity on the field decreases due to the inability to rest up with Roost, and instead of being able to switch moves to beat Pokemon that are able to come in on Hurricane, but not able to come in on Fire Blast, you are usually forced to switch-out if you predict wrong.

    To sum up, I believe that Moltres resides in a Speed tier that is slower than a large amount of offensive Pokemon in LU, meaning that it gets revenged quite easily by common Pokemon. Also, I believe it depends on spin support way too much, and if that doesn't happen, its effect on any game decreases heavily.

    I'm going to say Moltres ISN't Broken. But there are certainly good reasons to why it should be banned.

    Also, fuck Hurricane. SORRY FOR THE TL;DR GUYS.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 3, 2013
  23. Hot N Cold

    Hot N Cold Active Member

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    yes
    also I should to add that in LU spinblokers are most common than RU, with Mismagius and Dusclops, this makes hard to spin in LU than RU, which makes Moltres easier under Stealth Rock, for example the few times that I have played LU I used Rotom-N + Mismagius, this core to prevent Hitmonchan Foresight and to play around easier against Kabutops / Cryogonal. This makes manageable Moltres.
     
  24. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

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    Hi.

    I honestly have no clue about anything in LU, but I just want to chime in and say that Stealth Rock is possibly the worst excuse to ban/not ban a Pokemon tying with Usage placement.

    The reason for this is that Stealth Rock is not a definite factor. Getting up SR is never a guarantee as a professional can just as easily stop the SR user before getting it up or find a chance to spin it away. I do not know how easy/hard it is to do either of those in the tier, but regardless of tier, STEALTH ROCK IS NOT ALWAYS UP, SO STOP THINKING THAT IT IS.

    Also, I have read Texas's argument; the points make sense, but literally half of the argument points to Stealth Rock.

    What I'm trying to say is that Stealth Rock should not be the main point to keep it or kick it. It is a factor to look into, but it shouldn't be the main tipping point.
     
  25. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    Nobody ever stated that Moltres' SR weakness was the defining factor. You say it yourself: it's just a factor that you have to keep in mind when discussing Moltres. It has plenty of other exploitable weaknesses which have been discussed before. Moltres is just not gamebreaking enough to be banned. I'm just going to refer to Texas Cloverleafs post because it covers everything necessary.
     
  26. Sinclair

    Sinclair Call me the Pokemon Demigod

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    I have to say that I'm leaning towards no ban for Moltres for 3 reasons.
    One, being Stealth Rock. Now the arguement has been going both ways that spinning/spinblocking is very easy in RU, now these are both true but either way Stealth Rock is still a thing and an extremely common thing at that. It's not very easy to "spam" hurricane/fblast if you NEED to spin before getting Moltres in or risk taking 50% health. On the subject of spamming one move or two moves etc. 70% accuracy is extremely unreliable for a stab move, and given, that 85% is much more reliable move its still not as reliable as to make this mon the broken wall breaker its made out to be. My third reason being that Moltres is very easily revenge killed by just about every scarfer in the tier, and most offensive mons don't need a scarf to outpace Moltres in its sub par speed tier. It's speed tier really only helps outpace most of the walls/bulky mons of the tier.
    TL;DR - I'm voting no ban because of 3 reasons. SR, Shaky accuracy, and sub-par speed tier.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2013
  27. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    Ok guys, can we be a little less heated? I know this is about Moltres but we don't have to light the thread on fire and flame each other.

    Anyway, on topic:
    Moltres does not deserve to be banned. I've been testing quite a lot (currently 49th) and Moltres isn't remotely broken. It's powerful as hell but the speed is it's biggest weakness. Even though it is weak to Stealth Rocks, Moltres has plenty of ways to deal with Rocks being up. People saying you lose teambuilding strength from adding a spinner are ridiculous. Kabutops is probably the best spinner to use and works incredibly well against all spinblockers bar the bulky ass f**k Dusclops. Not to mention that you will pressure your opponent to try to spin block you every time because they want Moltres to take the 50%. It works in the favor of both teams, it just depends on how well you abuse it.

    Moltres' speed is something you can't overcome. There is too much in the tier that outspeeds and hits hard enough to KO or cause LO recoil to KO. Not to mention the plethora of widely used defensive Pokemon that can take hits and cripple/KO Moltres. The simple fact is that he isn't threatening enough. He doesn't break games. He's a threat and played properly can hurt most teams, but it requires too much support to work, and when he does it isn't consistent enough to be gamebreaking. If both STAB's were say 90%+ things would be different, or if Moltres was faster, but neither is true. Those are the factors that prevent Moltres from being broken

    I know there are rules, but I don't see any other arguments either side can make. It's almost pointless to have this thread continue, but just me and Liar's opinions I guess :\

    PS: @Um Hello? your last reason for Pro-ban is terrible. No offense. LU is both the easiest and hardest tier to spin in.

    This exactly. He's too situational to be broken. You said so yourself. It works both ways. A Pokemon is not broken because it can be good if everything goes its way. A Pokemon is broken if it can break the tier without relying on such unpredictability. If it can reliably be a threat. If it can consistently threaten teams with no worries. Moltres isn't this.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2013
  28. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Actually getting up SR is probably the easiest thing you can do in the game. It takes one turn, it stays there forever and most pokemon that get it can last longer than turn 5. The simple fact that it's so widespread makes it even easier.

    Spinning is "easy" in LU in the sense that it is probably the easiest tier to spin in, however it still requires a bit of prediction or risk(Hitmonchan can be burned you know!). Why do you think that, in any discussion worth viewing, rocks are always assumed when talking about what can check and counter a pokemon? Because of the ease it can be laid and kept up.

    It affects the game more than most people think. We probably wouldn't be having this discussion now if rocks didn't exist.
     
  29. ZoroDark

    ZoroDark i know everything

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    As bad as this suspect discussion has been, it's actually encouraged me to go and play some LU again (and it's still an awesome tier). Also as a reference, I'll be talking about the LO set and only that.

    So after some testing, it's become clear that this is a really hard poke to judge. On one hand, its nasty SR weakness makes sure you can't just throw it on a team, but you're forced to support it very carefully. I want to expand on this since it's actually the most important factor and people are just waving it away with "LU has great spinners". Yes, LU has some really good spinners, but that doesn't take away you'll lose momentum when you spin, and Hitmonchan nor Kabutops aren't exactly bulky mons that you can just bring in. They aren't guaranteed to spin either, since it's a lot of 50/50s to win (Do I Foresight/Swords Dance etc). Its also pretty slow in comparison to some of the other common LU pokes, so it's easily revenged by quite a lot of pokes, including the many Electrics terrorizing LU. A lot of pokes it should be able to wall run Rock coverage just for it (think Sceptile). Accuracy is annoying when you're using it, but it's an awful argument in a suspect discussion so I won't go in details about that. Also, unless I missed something, I don't think you really need Fire Blast do you? I've been using Flamethrower, didn't miss a notable KO and I felt much more comfortable having a strong 100% accuracy STAB.

    On the other hand, it WILL break your walls. There's literally nothing bar Munchlax (who's ass) that can safely switch in and live 2 hits. It has a chance to OHKO even bulky pokes like CB Druddigon after Stealth Rocks, which is a feat some Super Effective hits even fail to accomplish. Big problem is, though, that pokes like CB Druddigon and CB Durant also do this, without having that nasty SR weakness (it isn't a perfect comparison because their STABs aren't as spammable as Hurricane. They need CB as well, but that doesn't take away the fact that they lack a counter in the strictest sense just like Moltres).

    Playing with/against it definitely changed my opinion so that's a great reminder not to theorymon ever again. Keep Moltres imo.
     
  30. Beastly

    Beastly Active Member

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    @ZoroDark Spinners in the tier are so good so that just no plz.DID YOU JUST SAY SUB PAR SPEED really really
    Its the 15th fastest thing in the tier with out scarfs only 7 of them are used and can beat it
    Technically you dont need to put hurricane/fblast it does learn flamethrower and air slash
     
  31. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Both of those moves are noticeably weaker, and as such Moltres will miss out on vital KOs when running them. We wouldn't be having this suspect discussion if Moltres didn't have those moves - without Hurricane, defensive Slowking could counter it - HP Grass isn't a 2HKO while Scald is a OHKO after Stealth Rock.

    252 SpA Life Orb Moltres Hidden Power Grass vs. 248 HP / 116+ SpD Slowking: 146-174 (37.15 - 44.27%) -- 99.98% chance to 3HKO

    LU is lucky enough to have Spinners which aren't dead weight when they're not spinning, but Rapid Spinning is like setting up a sweep - it can be tricky finding space to do it. By spinning you could give your opponent a free set up opportunity, and if they're keeping up the offensive pressure it can be very tough. Not to mention the numerous Ghost types doing their utmost to stop you spinning.
     
  32. Double01

    Double01 Member

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    Spdef Regirock and Wishtect clefable counter all moltres bar Specs which is by far the easiest set for your opponent to abuse. Also the foresight hitmonchan is pretty shit from my experience playing. Even if it is able to spin vs magius or w.e then it is probably burned and useless for the rest of the match. Half the time I don't even switch in my spin blocker because of all the foresight chains. As they foresight I can just go into something that kos it or threatens it out. So not even foresight chan is 100% able to spin.

    Just my thoughts
     
  33. Sinclair

    Sinclair Call me the Pokemon Demigod

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    Hitmonchan is probably one of the best spinners in the tier. Also, you can't really use prediction as a viable arguement because prediction is so subjective and varies from player to player.
     
  34. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    I already addressed this:

    Would you like us to discuss a Pokemon being broken because we are just making mindless and stupid decisions against it? If yes, let's leave Ferroseed in on Moltres, Quagsire in on Lilligant, Absol in on Hitmonlee, etc. Sure, we can leave intelligence from very skilled players out of the equation, but if we completely exclude prediction, then we are assuming that the players are just doing completely random things and expecting to win.
     
  35. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Okay just gonna summarise my thoughts in to my (most likely) final post here:

    • Rocks are obviously an important factor in a suspect discussion for Moltres since it take 50% from them every time it switches in, and there's no doubt they help to pressure it or cripple it. LU is probably the easiest tier to spin in, either Foresight Chan spins on Ghosts or Kabutops/Cryogonal just kill the Ghosts and then Spin. There is not a guarantee to Spin every match, however the Moltres user can put some resources in to spinning to make it easier/more likely, by running a decent spinner and a trapper, and these pokemon are rarely deadweight, however a more useful pokemon could be used if there wasn't a need to Spin. Offensive pressure can also stop spinning but rarely will a Spinner not find an opportunity to spin again even if it's forced out, and the loss in momentum isn't a bad pay off for letting Moltres thrive. And pressure can be applied to SR setters just the same as pressure can be applied to Spinners.
    • Some people seem to ignore posts and keep trying to bring up Checks/Counters but Moltres has no true Counters that perform well in the LU meta outside of walling Moltres. Sp Def Slowking and Sp Def Lanturn are decent Checks, however Slowking can be 2HKO'd by Hurricane after Rocks, and Lanturn 2HKO'd by HP Grass after Rocks, although Slowking has regenerator which allows it to pivot around and stay healthier throughout a game so is a much more efficient Check than Lanturn. Also if these pokemon do decide to invest fully in Sp Def to take on Moltres they are then 2HKO'd by the other Fire type powerhouse, Entei. Regirock + Munchlax are also effective Checks but don't perform too well in the LU meta.
    • Hurricane + Fire Blast are inaccurate moves however they are not without an upside, Hurricane is as likely to confuse as it is to miss, possibly giving you free turns to 2HKO w/o taking damage or giving you a free turn to miss, and Fire Blast has accuracy that you can't complain about and has a 10% chance to Burn which can be life saving vs Physical Attackers.
    • Moltres has decent bulk, enough to only be 2HKO'd by SE attacks from walls, and 3HKO'd by non SE attacks. It takes around 50% from majority of priority attacks in the tier including Entei's E-Speed, Bisharp's Sucker Punch and Feraligatr's Aqua Jet, none are reliable OHKO's after Rocks however. Moltres also hits a nice Speed tier which allows it to outspeed majority of the unboosted metagame, and can OHKO basically every Offensive pokemon it outspeeds. And it's typing whilst leaving it weak to Rock, Water + Electric, common types in LU, it also 4x resists Grass + Bug, can switch in on most Fighting types and has an immunity to Ground, so it has a lot of Opportunities to fire off strong attacks/Roost up in a match.
    • Moltres has a fairly long list of pokemon that can revenge kill it, but that is assuming you are running a playstyle to fit these pokemon in. If you face a Moltres with a bulky team or a Stall team you don't have much hope of surviving Moltres' attacks, let alone have time to think about revenge killing it. The Meta is extremely offensive right now, there really isn't any room for Stall or Bulky teams to thrive (unless TR) as these teams are helpless vs Moltres, most people posting here are just expecting to carry a Scarf Electric type or a Sceptile with HP Rock etc. to always beat Moltres and it never be a problem for them, and that probably is what they run because these are the only sorts of teams you can be successful with in this meta.

    So overall it's 50/50 whether Moltres should be banned, however I would like to see it banned just so we could have a healthier, more balanced metagame.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2013
    Proof likes this.
  36. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    I'd like to say rocks won't always be up, but tbh I'm just trying to convince myself. However! Moltres is too good for LU still. There are several pokes that can switch into any of his moves, kabutops/omastar into fire blast (takes like 80% from hurricane or something stupid..) lanturn into anything tbh takes like 45%(?) from hp grass though so be careful. Slowking takes anything except 2 specs hurricanes w/ rocks up, munchlax takes any hit but isn't amazing in lu.

    Now, what I've been hearing from people is "Kabutops can switch into a fire blast/hurricane and kill w/ AJ after rocks!" I will now list the problems with this
    1) predictions (ik this is a grey area but still) hp grass kills easily and hurricane kills with a bit if prior damage+rocks
    2) roost. roost is a move guys. Switch into rocks, roost on their switch to kabutops, take 65-70% from AJ and kill w/ hp grass.
    3) AJ only kills if rocks are up, if they were spun away or never gotten up (taunt, magic bounce, magic coat idk) then you won't be killing it

    Also, I think moltres overall is just unhealthy for lu, I'm proban on most things that are controversial (dusclops drudd etc) but unlike drudd, moltres best counters only work if they're at 100%. Drudd deals massive damage, but Aggron takes 35% (?) from outrage, defensive steelix is insane and only takes like 40% from a SE EQ from banded drudd, but there is a massive difference in these pokes. Moltres is a lot faster. Drudd and moltres are comparable in terms of checks/counters: steelix=munchlax lanturn=aggron etc (imo tbh js) but moltres outspeeds his counters. Munchlax is an alright pkmn, but his usage in lu is minimal leaving only lanturn and slowking. Rocks up + hurricane kills standard slowking and lanturn has no reliable recovery and is 3hko'd by hp grass. Rocks severely puncture moltres's wings, but a quick break on the ground brings him back to full, and if you switched in your kabutops trying to rocks trap it (forcing its lo to bring it to 40%) then you're gonna have a bad time. Hitmonchan is a great spinner, and not deadweight when not spinning, but rocks will usually be up. uxie and drudd are the most used rockers and both beat foresight chan 1v1. Moltres is 4x weak to rock, weak to electric, and weak to water. That's it. Now let's look at his resistances. Fire, Grass, Bug, Steel, fighting. Oh, and he's immune to ground. Electric and Water are pretty common, as are rocks, but he has a plethora of resistances that he can switch into, roost back his health, and proceed to punch holes. I say BAN.
     
  37. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    Do you know how easily Moltres can be revenge killed though?

    252 SpA Rotom Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 288-338 (89.71 - 105.29%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Hidden Power Rock vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 395-468 (123.05 - 145.79%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Accelgor Hidden Power Rock vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 380-452 (118.38 - 140.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 SpA Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 306-362 (95.32 - 112.77%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Thunder vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Moltres: 478-564 (148.9 - 175.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    220 Atk Life Orb Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Moltres: 780-920 (242.99 - 286.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Skill Link Cinccino Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Moltres: 540-640 (168.22 - 199.37%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Moltres: 716-844 (223.05 - 262.92%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    All of these guys outspeed Moltres.
     
  38. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Entei doesn't outspeed.
     
  39. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    But my problem isn't with moltres being revenge killed. My problem is that there is a lack of pokemon that can switch into moltres, live, and get off a hit to kill it because you sure as hell aren't switching any of these into moltres, outside of aero who can take 1 hit unless rocks are up (I believe it ohkos w/ rocks up don't quote me on that) or moltres who can take 1 hurricane, but will get outsped, but if rocks are up he can espeed, although he dies if rocks are up on your side of the field. You easily say "You can revenge kill it look at all the pokes that do it" but revenge killing means you had to let a poke die. Moltres has very pretty stab moves, but they have their pluses. 120 base power. Fire blast has 85 (or 80 but I think 85) acc which is I believe one of the highest for moves that powerful that don't lower your stats, and 70% acc hurricane which has a 30% chance to confuse your opp (who fucking thought this was a good idea, and letting it be 100% acc in the rain ugh). If you think having to let something die to get a switch in to force it out is a good idea, I don't know what to say. I don't want to be forced to run munchlax because moltres is so powerful, lanturn is great, I love that fish, but he's sub par when compared to other walls in terms of recovery, he great typing leaves him with 2 weaknesses and a plethora of resistances to common lu types such as Fire/Electric/Water, but no recovery hurts, A LOT because he gets worn down easily. Moltres needs 2 hp grasses with some prior damage to kill (I think he has a chance of 2hkoing w/ rocks up, but I may be wrong).
     
  40. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    It's been stated time and time again that revenge killing should not be the crux of any suspect argument. Almost every Suspect (in every tier) has been "revenge kill-able."

    Revenge killing requires you to both sacrifice a pokemon in order to switch into the revenger safely, and for the opposing Pokemon to stay in play. While Moltres may not have an infinite number of switches, if it gets into play and your only option is to revenge kill it, it can get at least two kills. The only one of those things that can "safely" switch in is Aerodactyl which is 2HKO'd without Rocks, and is down to two Life Orb attacks with Rocks (against LO Moltres).
    Entei is the only other thing that can try to switch in, but is slower do to the forced Adamant nature (the CM set can't touch Moltres), and is OHKO'd (with Rocks) by Hurricane, 2HKO'd (with Rocks) by Fire Blast, and (obviously) 2HKO'd by Hurricane + Fire Blast without Rocks (all against the LO set). At best, you can hope to avoid a Hurricane and try to Extreemespeed Moltres.

    Any more posts whose content is solely calculations like this is going to be infracted. The Suspect guidelines are pretty clear about not basing your argument on calculations, and I've already said that revenge killing shouldn't be the crux of any suspect argument.
     
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