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[BW2] Suspect Discussion: Moltres

Discussion in 'Gen 5 LU' started by Tyki, Sep 8, 2013.

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  1. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    I don't really see how Moltres is guaranteeing you two kills, even when you can only revenge kill it. You're assuming that you bring Moltres in without taking any damage aside from Stealth Rock, because otherwise Moltres will die to said Stealth Rock upon switching out and coming in again (and if your opponent brings in a revenge killer, Moltres is guaranteed to die barring a Rapid Spin somewhere in between). Not only that, you assume you can do this twice every match. The odds of this happening are very slim, because Moltres can't afford to take any direct damage or status. You'd have to predict your opponent to use some kind of setup move like Spikes, Light Screen, Swords Dance etc which only means that you're good at predicting, but it doesn't make Moltres broken. The other scenario is that something else dies before you bring in Moltres, but that also defeats your argument because you're just trading kills at that point. If anything Moltres' x4 Stealth Rock weakness puts you at a disadvantage in that scenario. Then there is ofcourse the possibility of leading with Moltres, but that's 50/50 again because your opponent could lead with something that threatens Moltres out. Either way I just wanted to point this out, people in this discussion have been theorymonning alot (not pointing at anyone) and like ZoroDark said himself, you need to play LU enough to see that Moltres is not the insanely overpowering threat that people make it out to be .
     
  2. Um Hello?

    Um Hello? Member

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    I definitely play LU enough (not going to comment on whether I play well, but I play), I still think Moltres is such a big threat.

    Miss chances really don't matter, Moltres threatens so many Pokemon, and even less can switch in without fear, just the threat of Hurricane or Fire Blast forces switches, no matter the ability of the opponent.

    You can have a well built team and still get put in a really bad situation just because of Moltres and the switches it forces, as it has been said previously, there is one reliable answer to Moltres in the tier in Lanturn, everything else is NU or requires some luck to live, [Miss/Low Roll] And Lanturn isn't top 10 in ranked stats, and, beyond Moltres I feel Lanturn is a sub-par at worst, and average at best Pokemon for LU, which honestly makes me think it only has the usage it has for a Moltres answer.

    When the only reliable answer defensively is Lanturn, and the other answers posted (Munchlax and Regirock which aren't even in top 100 usage.) You know that a Pokemon is bad for the tier.
    (Whilst unrelated to Moltres I happened to look at the current ranked stats and Drudd is at 35% which isn't good for the tier either but still)




    Just to reiterate what I'm saying, when you have to teambuild specifically to not get absolutely smashed by a Moltres and even then you're using a Pokemon with no recovery (ok volt absorb is recovery but w/e) that is very average normally to do it, and isn't even a Pokemon that beats Moltres 100% of the time it really isn't good.





    Estimated time left on this suspect? just because it's been over 2 weeks :[
     
  3. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    Some of Lanturn's usage is indeed dictated by Moltres, but Lanturn has more uses than to check Moltres; in fact, some Pokemon run a Grass-type move, commonly Hidden Power, just to beat Lanturn, most notably Manectric, Magmortar, Omastar, and Galvantula. Also, Lanturn can still check threats that do not run frequently run Hidden Power Grass, such as Entei, Emboar, Rotom, and Magneton.
     
  4. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    Note how I prefaced the "it can get at least two kills" part with "if it gets into play."

    Moltres has two 4x Resists to common types in LU, a recovery move in Roost, an immunity to Ground, and the tier where spinning (and offensive pressure to keep SR users out of play) is the easiest. If you include support moves and all of the above, Moltres has more than enough chances to get into play and launch its nuclear attacks. This is all discounting the fact that Moltres can be saved (or use the switch in then Roost repeatedly) until the revenge killer is gone. It isn't like the majority of non-HO teams carry more than 1 or 2 pokemon with 90 or more speed.

    I sure as hell hope that quip about playing LU wasn't directed at me, because I've been playing LU for longer than you've been on the forums and I know the tier I'm leading.

    Also, if you seriously think that people like Afro Cash, myself, Celestial Phantom, and Vuvuzelabzz are only saying because we someone are just theorymoning, then you really should lurk more before you keep posting.

    None of those Pokemon run HP Grass (and Giga Drain) solely for Lanturn. It hits things like Rhydon, all of the Water / Ground types, Sandslash and Claydol. Omastar runs HP grass for Slowking, Galvantula likes Giga Drain for the extra healing to lessen SR + LO damage.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2013
  5. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    I never mentioned any names so I don't know why you're putting words in my mouth :x Saving Moltres until the revenge killer is gone is something you can say about every pokemon. It shows that the player has skill, but it doesn't make Moltres broken. Keeping SR users out of play with offensive pressure sounds questionable too really, the most common SR users like Druddigon and Uxie can easily live hits thanks to great bulk to get up rocks or cripple pokes with Glare and Thunder Wave, or in Druddigons case flat out attack. Spinning is not very convenient with Spiritomb and Mismagius around, and predicting them to come in is 50/50. Chances are spinning is a lot harder than it is to get up SR actually. In my eyes Moltres just relies too much on unreliable support to function properly, and quite frankly the tier would change for the worse with Moltres gone. Tiers need wallbreakers like Moltres to keep defensive teams at bay. Even if Moltres got banned the metagame would still be too offensively oriented as New Breed has stated earlier in the discussion, so arguing that Moltres makes stall/bulky teams unviable is silly imo. Moltres is just another threat that every team needs to be prepared for, and it's not as hard as people make it out to be.

    LU is balanced the way it is now, much more than for example NU where the metagame is based around one poke. I don't see any good reason to change that, but that's just my opinion on it.
     
  6. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    Lu isn't balanced currently, it's pretty much offensive or bust. The tier has wallbreakers, the tier doesn't need wall anus destroyers. You can't "prepare" for moltres without adding lanturn or munchlax to your team. As to spinning is harder because of spin blockers, kabutops beats the spinblockers and hitmonchan can foresight at any time, since he eats up their hits unless your opp carries dual ghosts. Moltres is not the sole reason stall/bulky offense isn't viable, but it is a HUGE contributing factor. Moltres makes LU more unbalanced than it already is, it has to go. (fyi, I've played lu for a really long time :])
     
  7. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    Last edited: Sep 27, 2013
  8. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    Read the whole thing before commenting please, I'm not blaming moltres for the super unbalanced lu meta that we currently dwell in, but it is a contributing factor to this disease. Most HO are indeed as you put it "unprepared" for moltes, although this because you can't prepare for moltres without adding munchlax or lanturn to your team. I'm pro-ban on moltres not because I'm biased, but because I'm thinking about the impact moltres has on the metagame. Moltres is insanely powerful, too powerful, and his dual typing with POWERFUL stabs, etc. Unlike moltres, durant escav archeops etc, most of those have plenty of counters (durant has only a few, but still not as broken as moltres..). I can list of few to each if you care to listen, but yeah.

    The tier has wallbreakers, the tier doesn't need wall anus destroyers.

    Translation: "I am openly biased towards banning Moltres."

    interesting translation, but I personally don't have trouble with moltres, mainly because I'm forced to run lanturn against my will so I don't have to sack something to revenge kill it.
     
  9. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    Except you are not unprepared for Moltres if you do not carry Munchlax or Lanturn. Your logic suggests that every single hyper offensive team has to run Lanturn or Munchlax, more specifically, Lanturn. And that is not by any means true. Offensive teams use offensive pressure to keep Moltres from even getting in safely.

    I referred to your "wall anus destroyers" piece as biased because it sounded like a biased statement.

    I also do not need to know the counters to Durant / Escavalier / Archeops, I would not be arguing about it if they were walled by more than three Pokemon in the tier.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2013
  10. Double01

    Double01 Member

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    Stall is more than just viable, it's actually pretty damn good. (Look at August's stall) Although Moltres is a threat to stall it's not impossible to beat ie use Spdef regirock, wishtect clefable, or lanturn and moltres will have trouble doing anything. So don't make these naive comments on how stall isn't viable when it clearly is. If anything Durant is scarier than moltres at wallbreaking
     
  11. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf Active Member

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    It seems this discussion is wrapping up to a point so I'd like to take this moment to reiterate the main anti-ban arguments for Moltres in order to potentially spark final discussion from the anti-ban side.

    I believe these arguments summarize succinctly why I and many others do not believe Moltres is broken. I understand where the pro-ban arguments are coming from in relation to Moltres' power level in the tier and its ability to defeat and take advantage of common defensive Pokemon in the tier. I believe this is a trait not unique to Moltres and that the level of support required to utilise Moltres to devastating effect along with other drawbacks are sufficient to negate its potential destructive power in an overpowering sense. I also believe that from an offensive sense, the current state of the metagame, Moltres cannot be broken due to a) the ability for an opponent to prevent Rapid Spin via offensive pressure, b) Moltres' speed tier which makes it difficult to outspeed common offensive Pokemon and c) be easily revenged / forced out by offense in turn, offense being a team archetype that usually has little concern for death fodder should Moltres in fact get in safely. From a defensive perspective I allow that Moltres is significantly more threatening but note that it does have several defensive checks of differing viability, and that stall oriented teams are likely to be using things such as Regirock or specially defense Slowking on their team (sidenote: If you're using Slowking as your Moltres counter than clearly you aren't using it as your Entei counter, you're likely using something like Alomomola).

    In short, Moltres is a powerful Pokemon with significant drawbacks that prevent it from being broken.

    I encourage the tier leaders to come to a decision soon, as every argument that can be made has been made by this point. I'm sure we will all respect the final choice made by this group. Perhaps after the decision is made I can start posting about why Druddigon isn't broken if I feel strongly enough about it :p.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2013
  12. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    Okay. After some long discussions and a few murders, we've come to the long awaited conclusion.
    The leaders have decided to ban Moltres.

    (19:14:43) The Real Elmo: I think we can agree that the sets in question are LO and Specs. Both rely on shaky acc STAB's to function.
    (19:14:49) Tyki: I agree
    (19:15:05) The Real Elmo: personally, I enjoy using sub even more now, but that's a side set
    (19:15:10) The Real Elmo: sub tox
    (19:15:55) The Real Elmo: Moltres sits at right about the midpoint between the actually fast (100+) LU'ers and the slower ones like mesprit
    (19:16:53) The Real Elmo: I've always found that revenging moltres and having it rack up a bunch of SR/LO damage to be super easy. It's also not as tanky as people have been saying unless you invest pretty heavily
    (19:17:07) The Real Elmo: switching in though seems to be the focus of the argument
    (19:17:25) +Xdevo: It's essentially impossible to switch into
    (19:17:30) The Real Elmo: yeah
    (19:17:31) +Xdevo: with only 3 moves
    (19:17:35) +Xdevo: and on a LO set
    (19:17:38) Tyki: only counter is Munchlax
    (19:17:44) Tyki: which can at best phase it out
    (19:17:52) Tyki: and is shitty ingenreal
    (19:18:39) +Xdevo: My problem is I don't think there should be any pokemon where you have no choice to but to sac
    (19:18:46) +Xdevo: or hope for a coinflip
    (19:18:55) The Real Elmo: you kinda have to do that with medicham though
    (19:19:02) +Xdevo: well
    (19:19:07) +Xdevo: Tomb can switch into it
    (19:19:15) +Xdevo: scout move and switch out
    (19:19:18) Tyki: thats what we said about Meloetta
    (19:19:47) The Real Elmo: pretty sure that LO punch 2hits tomb, which is about the same story as lanturn with moltres
    (19:19:59) The Real Elmo: and yeah, melo
    (19:20:49) +Xdevo: Moltres also has an immunity to abuse, doesn't need to have 4 moves to 2HKO everything
    (19:21:04) +Xdevo: and doesn't have things like Uxie that can switch into it outspeed and do something
    (19:21:10) The Real Elmo: true
    (19:21:25) +Xdevo: since there is almost nothing faster than Moltres that can take a hit with SR
    (19:21:38) Tyki: Aerodactyl?
    (19:21:41) +Xdevo: aero comes to mind
    (19:21:50) +Xdevo: but the vast majority are leads
    (19:21:59) The Real Elmo: I remember seeing someone suggest bulky resttalk aero as a check
    (19:22:02) The Real Elmo: lol
    (19:22:03) +Xdevo: and if you have a 90%+ aero
    (19:22:08) +Xdevo: you don't have SR
    (19:22:42) Tyki: Regirock and Lanturn come to mind as the "best" checks
    (19:22:52) Tyki: Slowking can do ok if no rocks
    (19:22:58) +Xdevo: If you have a 100% Regirock
    (19:23:02) +Xdevo: you also don't have rocks
    (19:23:35) The Real Elmo: true
    (19:23:49) +Xdevo: Also, I think Slowking can be 2HKO without rocks
    (19:23:54) +Xdevo: but that might be the specs set
    (19:23:57) The Real Elmo: i'll go calc
    (19:24:16) The Real Elmo: specs in rain is an ass btw
    (19:24:21) +Xdevo: 252 SpAtk Life Orb Moltres Hurricane vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Slowking (+SpDef) : 42.64% - 50.51%
    (19:24:31) +Xdevo: most slowking run less SpDef
    (19:24:32) +Xdevo: but
    (19:24:41) The Real Elmo: 252 SpAtk Choice Specs Moltres (+SpAtk) Hurricane vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Slowking (+SpDef) : 53.55% - 63.45%
    (19:24:41) The Real Elmo: 2 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
    (19:24:55) +Xdevo: Modest Specs
    (19:24:57) +Xdevo: is a monster
    (19:25:15) +Xdevo: I like the part where people think you can play around Moltres
    (19:25:16) The Real Elmo: yeah
    (19:25:22) +Xdevo: when if it just spams hurricane
    (19:25:29) +Xdevo: it is doing at least 40% to anything common
    (19:25:42) The Real Elmo: 30% confuse chance too
    (19:25:48) Tyki: that is also a bitch
    (19:25:50) +Xdevo: 252 SpAtk Choice Specs Moltres (+SpAtk) Hurricane vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Aggron: 34.3% - 40.41%
    (19:25:53) The Real Elmo: which annoys me
    (19:26:11) Tyki: Hp Ground Moltres anyone ;D
    (19:26:25) The Real Elmo: it does hit lanturn just as hard
    (19:26:31) The Real Elmo: not a bad alternative
    (19:26:44) +Xdevo: My biggest problem with Moltres is that it is extremely hard to not lose a pokemon too it
    (19:26:56) Tyki: I agree
    (19:27:05) +Xdevo: even if it can't always switch into play
    (19:27:10) +Xdevo: If it gets in once
    (19:27:20) +Xdevo: you will lose something 90% of the time
    (19:27:26) The Real Elmo: shell smash or QD pass to moltres is fun
    (19:27:46) +Xdevo: and at worst you took something down to 20% ish
    (19:28:07) Tyki: bad part about quiver apss to tres
    (19:28:10) Tyki: is super rock weak
    (19:28:30) Tyki: So
    (19:28:38) Tyki: Pros to Moltres:
    (19:28:41) Tyki: 2HKOs most of tier
    (19:28:54) Tyki: Roost
    (19:28:57) +Xdevo: Everthing that is in the tier
    (19:28:59) +Xdevo: is 2HKO'd
    (19:29:08) The Real Elmo: Pressure stall is big
    (19:29:24) The Real Elmo: with just roost and sub it beats a lot of "counters"
    (19:30:00) The Real Elmo: so
    (19:30:06) The Real Elmo: Cons:
    (19:30:07) The Real Elmo: SR
    (19:30:11) The Real Elmo: Easy to revenge
    (19:30:13) +Xdevo: SR is a big issue
    (19:30:14) The Real Elmo: ?
    (19:30:15) Tyki: How does
    (19:30:18) Tyki: Thick Fat Walrein do?
    (19:30:19) Tyki: :3
    (19:30:25) +Xdevo: well
    (19:30:25) The Real Elmo: not even gonaa
    (19:30:31) The Real Elmo: SR rapes it
    (19:30:33) +Xdevo: Hurricane already gives 0 fucks
    (19:30:34) Tyki: :<
    (19:30:39) The Real Elmo: I've been using it in NU
    (19:30:44) The Real Elmo: and SR is doom for it
    (19:30:55) The Real Elmo: but it does hilariously well vs doom
    (19:30:56) Tyki: poor walrein
    (19:31:00) Tyki: (:3=
    (19:31:05) +Xdevo: (:3=
    (19:31:21) +Xdevo: While New Breed does have some points
    (19:31:40) +Xdevo: I really want Stall to be usuable in LU without getting shit on
    (19:31:54) Tyki: stall will probably still be shit on
    (19:31:57) The Real Elmo: or just like
    (19:31:57) Tyki: even with moltres ban
    (19:31:58) +Xdevo: while powercreep is a thing
    (19:32:00) The Real Elmo: slowmons
    (19:32:01) Tyki: Tauros
    (19:32:03) The Real Elmo: survivng
    (19:32:07) Tyki: CG Gallade
    (19:32:07) +Xdevo: We have 3 pokemon in BL2
    (19:32:16) Tyki: *CB
    (19:32:22) +Xdevo: we clearly haven't tried to make it viable
    (19:32:38) Tyki: if we want to make stall viable
    (19:32:39) +Xdevo: Cress just made everything a nightmare
    (19:32:47) Tyki: we have to ban choice items pretty much
    (19:32:55) The Real Elmo: I WARNED ABOUT CRESS META
    (19:32:59) The Real Elmo: :<
    (19:32:59) +Xdevo: Torn was just as bad if not worse for Offense
    (19:33:10) +Xdevo: Melo was actually better for stall
    (19:33:38) +Xdevo: At least without Moltres
    (19:33:47) +Xdevo: Stall can try to win with predictions
    (19:33:57) +Xdevo: Moltres can rekt without a choice item
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    (19:35:07) +Xdevo: and overall
    (19:35:26) +Xdevo: I haven't seen enough arguments that were keep Moltres that didn't consist of Revenge killing
    (19:37:32) Tyki: so yea
    (19:37:39) The Real Elmo: I guess I change to being Pro Ban
    (19:37:47) Tyki: the arguements against ban
    (19:37:57) Tyki: are revenge with pretty much any scarfer or priority
    (19:37:58) Tyki: and rocks
    (19:38:00) Tyki: pretty weak imo
    (19:38:02) Tyki: :S
    (19:38:05) Tyki: but idl
    (19:38:08) +Xdevo: While the Rocks is a big issue
    (19:38:19) +Xdevo: Moltres has too much going for it
    (19:38:21) The Real Elmo: Rocks can be played around
    (19:38:46) The Real Elmo: almost anyone who actually uses tres can tell you that while half your health is big
    (19:38:54) +Xdevo: while this isn't to do with tres
    (19:38:55) The Real Elmo: switching in and killing one of them is worth it
    (19:39:05) Tyki: take Hitmonchan and Kabutops
    (19:39:09) +Xdevo: I found it funny that people said that they'd sac things against a Kabu
    (19:39:09) Tyki: never have rocks up
    (19:39:19) +Xdevo: to keep up sr
    (19:39:37) The Real Elmo: Kabu+hitmon on the same team is really strong actually
    (19:39:45) The Real Elmo: Double Prio has saved my ass so many times
    (19:40:45) +Xdevo: 6 priority
    (19:41:29) +Xdevo: So
    (19:41:43) +Xdevo: Moltres is to be banned if I read this right
    (19:41:55) The Real Elmo: agreed
    (19:42:12) The Real Elmo: revenging is a horrible argument
    (19:42:17) The Real Elmo: and SR can be managed
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 8, 2013
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