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[BW2] Suspect Discussion: Druddigon

Discussion in 'Gen 5 LU' started by Xdevo, Sep 18, 2013.

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  1. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    [​IMG]

    Discuss the possibility of Druddigon being banned from the LU tier.

    Try to make intelligent posts based off of experience in the tier. Posts based off theorymon are at risk of being infracted.

    Try to find the checks and counters of Druddigon as well as its impact and power in the tier. Do not simply say "it's broken" or "it's not broken". Back up your arguments on why you think it should be banned or not.

    If a consensus is reached after a few weeks, it will likely be implemented. If not, a vote will likely be held. As mentioned before, posts with solid arguments will be taken into consideration.
     
  2. Sinclair

    Sinclair Call me the Pokemon Demigod

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    This suspect has to be a joke... I cant even make a post right now because there is no way this mon should be suspected.
    I'll edit this post later and make an actual post, with a list of the plethora of checks and counters to Drudd.
     
  3. Tyki

    Tyki Change

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    Just here to remind you guys to read this before you post. We will infract you if these are not followed.
    http://pokemon-online.eu/forums/announcement.php?f=34&a=42

    Also, suspecting a poke doesn't mean that we will necessarily ban it. We just want to hear the communities opinion about it, so no hate posts will be tolerated either.
     
  4. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    Honestly I love Druddigon but...

    Well, for a start, yeah it has 2 LU safe switch ins (Aggron, which doesn't appreciate taking residual damage, and Steelix, which is same, both of which are screwed hard by EQ or Superpower). When CB Druddigon gets into play, which is stupidly easy on a majority of the tier thanks to its high bulk and great typing, basically if you don't have one of those two pokemon or Ferroseed or some crappy unviable steel, your options are basically, what do I sac. Then once you've sacced, you're going to have trouble actually KOing Druddigon even with hazard damage. Then there's Druddigon's support + bulky sets, which aren't broken but I think allow it to be somewhat unpredictable. Also its bulky/support sets have a lot of raw power even with no investment, and easily rack up residual damage through rough skin and/or rocky helmet. Druddigon is by no means a perfect pokemon, being locked into Outrage for a slow pokemon isn't the best, but hell if you're at near-full health you can afford to take a hit and Outrage to KO anyway. With Druddigon there are basically no switch ins, there is basically no revenging it, and its effect on the tier is very limiting, absolutely destroying defensive teams. It also has a pretty significant effect on Offensive teams, with its ability to take basically any hit SE or otherwise and hit back, or utilise Sucker Punch, which is useful although it sucks to be locked into it. Also if you predict wrong with a switch in that can take 1 hit from CB, and the advantage of prediction is pretty clearly on Druddi's side here, you risk a Glare from support Druddi.

    Yeah it's borked, IMO.

    and pls suspect entei after u ban druddi cos entei has few enough checks already
     
  5. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Druddigon is the best pokemon currently in LU in my honest opinion. I would have preferred this suspect up first before Moltres, but give and take I guess. The factor that sets Druddigon above near every LU pokemon is its amazing versatility. There is a reason why it is the most used LU pokemon and has been gaining that steam for the last 10 months.

    It has a devastating CB band set that combined with Outrage can nuke (OHKO or 2HKO) most pokemon that aren't steel types, and even then it will run EQ to cover for that, also noting it has access to superpower if lol Magnet Rise Magneton/Aggron were to gain steam lol. And even then, it has the potential to 2HKO said some steel types like Escavalier with Outrage if it's not entirely defensive bulky. Given that they usually speed creep on base 50's who hardly run speed except for certain sets, it's always a toss up on if it's straight KO'ing pokemon in that. Gotta admit that the CB set can be pretty much considered broken due to it's amazing power. Combined with Mold Breaker, which ignores several steel type mons sturdy ability, it power is widely recognized as the best in LU.

    Even then, druddigon has a fair range of sets to run that aren't CB offensive. It acts like a bulky tank on SR sets able to withstand several physical attacks with great coverage with Dragon Claw, EQ, and Sucker Punch. Not only that but it also acts as a great special wall, with a rest talk dual phazing set of roar and dragon tail that abuses spikes or stealth rocks pretty easily. Being a pure dragon type gives it a lot of resistances, and only dragon or ice attacks will do super effective damage. Both types are scarce outside Druddigon or the random HP Ice or Ice Beam from certain pokemon. Both sets are pretty lax and don't exhibit the physicality of the CB set but can deal well with opposing teams with either power or annoying phazing moves. Both types of sets are assisted by the fact it has the rough skin ability and makes any physical attacker fear trying to hurt it, especially combined with the occasional rocky helmet.

    As well, it's got the option of a LO Mixed set since it's given the sheer force ability. It does get access to Heat Wave or the more accurate Flamethrower which takes care of pokemon such as Tangrowth/Escavalier easier than the CB set, and lets you run Outrage/Dragon Claw all the same in a bulky tank sort of role. Though it lacks the movepool to effectively run a great Sheer Force set, it still has a potent presence against steel types, and letting outrage do damage to everything else with the additional cost of LO damage. Probably the least used druddigon set, but still viable with certain moves that cover a fair amount of ground against druddigon.

    First set imo is broken, the other 3 not so much though they still pack power or a vital niche or can't match up vs certain pokemon. The latter sets have their own pokemon that deal with druddigon in at least 2 hits, or don't find it /that/ much of a problem, but it's still difficult to play around mostly. Kind of hard to say on the full extent of druddigon right now on it being broken or not.
     
  6. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    I've faced Druddigon plenty of times, and started using it myself recently. It's a reliable SR user, and has a powerful STAB Outrage as well as a strong priority move in Sucker Punch. It's very easy to fit on any team, just because it's very reliable. That's why it's used so much. I don't think we have to argue that the non-CB sets are not even close to broken. They're all very good, from the offensive SR set to the defensive ParaShuffler and even the dual-phazing sleep talker. But all these sets can be dealth with by many pokes, like Tangrowth, Alomomola, Physically defensive Lickilicky, CB Aggron, Steelix, Tangela, Escavalier, etc. It is also awfully slow, and locking yourself into Outrage means you'll always get revenge killed. Even CB Druddigon will rarely get more than one kill against a decent opponent, because it is so slow you can easily get a hit of before it kills you with Outrage, and then it's usually in kill range of anything faster. That being said it will usually get a kill, but it leaves itself very exposed afterwards meaning it is just a one for one trade in the end. I don't see any good reasons to ban Druddigon. So no ban.
     
  7. Sakuya Izayoi

    Sakuya Izayoi love to hate

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    I'm a Druddigon user myself, and it is really good at what it does. Probably the most broken thing about Druddigon is its versatility and movepool, being able to run 3 completely different sets (Specially defensive, Band, Mixed) which have different counters to it. Druddigon does have excellent bulk and a really solid Attack stat to back it up, so it does give the tier a run for its money, despite is very low speed stat (which is just right to be a dangerous sweeper under TR!) However, Druddigon doesn't have any reliable recovery to begin with, and is very prone to being weakened by passive damage such as entry hazards. Compelling that there are many fast and dangerous sweepers in the tier, Druddigon can still be beaten with strong and hard attacks, despite its really good defensive typing. While the CB and Mixed set is a powerful wallbreaker, note that many teams do have their own wallbreakers and ice-move users, so it is very prone to being revenge-killed if locked into Outrage. So I'm voting No Ban.
     
  8. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    252+ Atk Choice Band Druddigon Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 187-222 (46.28 - 54.95%) -- 99.61% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Choice Band Druddigon Outrage vs. 104 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 255-300 (51.3 - 60.36%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Druddigon Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lickilicky: 228-268 (53.77 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (also not viable pokemon)
    252+ Atk Choice Band Druddigon Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 133-157 (39.93 - 47.14%) -- 41.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (regardless cant do anything back and is outclassed by Tangrowth)
    252+ Atk Choice Band Druddigon Outrage vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Escavalier: 146-172 (42.56 - 50.14%) -- 93.36% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    above loses to Druddigon in all situations.

    252+ Atk Choice Band Druddigon Outrage vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Aggron: 91-108 (29.35 - 34.83%) -- 81.64% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Choice Band Druddigon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Steelix: 148-176 (41.8 - 49.71%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Druddigon Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 78-92 (26.71 - 31.5%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Choice Band Druddigon Earthquake vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Aggron: 408-480 (131.61 - 154.83%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Druddigon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Steelix: 148-176 (41.8 - 49.71%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Druddigon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 87-103 (29.79 - 35.27%) -- 91.11% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    the above are solid, viable checks to druddigon, though they don't appreciate multiple switch ins, and Aggron is screwed if you predict.

    some other calcs for good measure

    -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Druddigon Outrage vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Qwilfish: 178-210 (53.29 - 62.87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Druddigon Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Durant: 138-163 (53.48 - 63.17%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Druddigon Outrage vs. 156 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Magneton: 105-125 (37.5 - 44.64%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252+ Atk Druddigon Earthquake vs. 156 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Magneton: 316-376 (112.85 - 134.28%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    In addition to this, even if most/all these pokemon weren't 2hkoed, aside from Aggron they still would be able to do very little to Druddigon. Things like Cryogonal with SE STABs still have to get Druddigon down to 60% to KO, let alone things with resisted/neutral moves and/or physical moves. Simply saying "it gets locked into Outrage so it's open to revenging" doesn't mean that much when almost all of the tier can't revenge it until it's half dead, it's doesn't provide a full picture of Druddigon's situation in the tier.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2013
  9. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    Ehmmm I specifically said that I was talking about the non-CB sets. Read carefully before replying please.
     
  10. Dr. Fomantis Toboggan

    Dr. Fomantis Toboggan man in the couch

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    Well Tangrowth and Tangela can put it to sleep or Knock Off it's Choice Band, but yeah the rest of those checks kinda blow. Defensive Cryogonal is a scrub anyway, offensive revenges it no problem. After Stealth Rock CB Durant (best Durant) has a 50% chance to ko Drudd and can switch in on an Outrage. It's so slow that it's going to stay at full health long, so in a game it's never really as hard as it might seem to revenge. So with that, and Durant, Aggron, and Steelix, (mostly Durant and Aggron), I'm gonna say no ban.
    It would be sad seeing this thing go though, the handy Stealth Rock and the most usable Sceptile check. Now there's the only poke in the tier that might warrant a suspect discussion.
     
  11. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    Nothing counters CB drudd w/ Fire blast. You can't switch in on it, there's nothing. Aggron, take this EQ real quick. Tangrowth, CB outrage/ sheer force fire blast. Alom, eat 2 outrages please. Durant/escav, hungry for some hot fire blasts? Steelix, you're no exception friend :] The other drudds are fine, but CB/mixed drudd just can't be stopped. Aggron and durant/escav aren't counters, Ohko'd and 2hko'd respectively by EQ

    Steelix can take 2 EQ's (no recovery and it'll be almost dead) Tangrowth can take 2 outrages if rocks are off the field (almost dead+can't touch drudd)

    CB drudd may be slow, but you aren't going to be trying to outrage on a jynx, you'll be doing it on something like Scolipede, Feraligatr, magmortar, Roselia, Slowking, Liligant, Rotoms, Clefable etc. Stuff you can easily take a hit from.

    No point in saying the other drudds are "broken", they can be stopped, but people really are underestimating the power drudd has. 2hko'ing something that reists it w/ high defenses (durant) shoots up a red flag in my book.

    Complex bans are out of the question I'm assuming, so this is an annoying spot to be in. He deserves a ban, he really does, but he helps keep peace in LU at the same damn time. Defensive drudd gets rocks and the illusive dragon typing as well as rough skin, beautifully stops Entei, liligant, etc and scares them. I'm undecided at this point, but it seems like the only reason to keep drudd is because he stops other pokes from being broken tbh
     
  12. Um Hello?

    Um Hello? Member

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    Will refer to Druddigon as Drudd for ease purposes.



    Firstly, to the people talking about
    Am I the only one who uses a Physically Defensive variation of this with rocky helmet? It's a counter to Entei/Krook amongst others. - I've never tried a SpecDef version but just something I noticed, lol.


    For quite a while Drudd has been the King of LU, (without checking the actual stats I'm going to say since at least NQueen moved up?)

    The main problem with Drudd, - any Drudd barring the aforementioned RestTalkDualPhaze for half of it's moveset - is it's speed, even if you're that guy who uses scarf Drudd it's still super slow and is outsped by a decent number of non-scarfed Pokemon anyway.

    Speed is by far the biggest reason for Drudd staying in LU, a pretty large % of the tier does outspeed it, and whilst it can threaten things out with an Über-strong outrage, if the opposing player doesn't switch it can outspeed a lot of the time and at least do something back, whether an attack or status of some kind.

    The fact it 2HKO's/1HKO's the majority of the tier really loses weight considering something like banded Rampardos or Aggron does a similar thing with Head Smash, but all three still have the speed issue, (and Ramp a complete survivability issue)

    NB: Aggron is naturally faster then Drudd too.


    However, to slightly mitigate the speed issue Drudd does have access to pseudo-priority in Sucker Punch, which even unstabbed does a nice amount to a lot of the frail Pokemon in LU.

    Because you're predicting every single switch perfectly, right?
    Also, with Fire Blast you lose some of your other coverage. (Outrage/Fire Blast/EQ/??) I'll say that the last slot is either Sucker Punch or Dragon Claw) You could use Sleeptalk too! - Outrage does hit everything that Fblast/EQ doesn't hard, but locking yourself in can be a waste.

    Also if you're using Sheer Force for Fire Blast you can be beaten by abilities, (sturdy/levitate are the main ones I'm thinking of) due to the loss of MoldBreaker.

    NB: If running mixed either with LO or Banded what nature are you using with it?

    Next, Drudd is weak to all forms of hazards. And whilst it does have the option of coming in play either on a weak attack or as a revenge killer (or a double, technically) and just clicking Outrage then dying after it kills something. Most of the time this is the inferior option, so Hazards can rack up. (Yes, spinning in LU, we've all heard it in the Moltres thread, I believe I said it myself, but you don't need team support like that for Drudd).

    Dragon is a nice defensive typing, but that doesn't mean it's taking every hit - resisted or not, Drudd has average bulk when not invested heavily, for example, using the 236 HP Spread:

    252 Atk Choice Band Entei (+Atk) Flare Blitz vs 236 HP/0 Def Druddigon: 45.48% - 53.67%

    252 SpAtk Life Orb Moltres Fire Blast vs 236 HP/0 SpDef Druddigon: 38.14% - 45.2%
    /
    252 SpAtk Life Orb Moltres Hurricane vs 236 HP/0 SpDef Druddigon: 76.27% - 90.4%

    252 Atk Krookodile Earthquake vs 236 HP/0 Def Druddigon: 46.89% - 55.37%
    2-3 hits to KO

    252 SpAtk Life Orb Rotom Shadow Ball vs 236 HP/0 SpDef Druddigon: 42.09% - 50%


    Those are just a few common LU offensive Pokemon, that make it hard for Drudd to come in safely, and can revenge a weakened Drudd, particularly if locked into Outrage.




    The other Drudd sets are all perfectly viable and perform slightly different roles, from a great Stealth Rocker with various movesets, from SR/Glare/Phazing to SR/3 attack


    Not really o.o For band/mixed as long as it outspeeds and can hit it hard (50-100%+ will do) it's a solid answer to Drudd, and whilst Specially Defensive [Physical imo] takes hits better it also deals a lot less damage back.



    No ban.
     
  13. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Yeah one slight flaw with your argument there raikage. Druddigon can't learn Fire Blast. Source. I wouldn't say Band Druddigon can't be stopped - I use it often, and I've never found it unbeatable. It is a very good Pokémon, as a wallbreaker it's one of the best in LU. Nothing can safely switch in. Personally I don't think it's broken, because all the moves Band Druddigon commonly uses have drawbacks: Outrage locks it in, Dragon Claw is weak as is Fire Punch on neutral targets, Superpower has stat penalties and Sucker Punch makes Druddigon set up fodder. And while there is nothing that can safely switch into it, quite a few Pokémon can easily revenge kill it when it's locked in Outrage. And Dragon moves have very poor super effective coverage in LU - apart from Druddigon, Dragon types are very rare.
     
  14. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    why would you intentionally ignore the CB set to say it's not bannable?

    also to everyone else... I'm interested to know how doing 40-80% to a Druddigon and then dying is a Druddigon revenge. That literally means you're losing 2 pokemon minimum just trying to check it.
     
  15. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    If we banned Pokemon because of their power with Choice Band or Choice Specs (ie this is similar to Moltres argument), then let's just completely change the suspect discussion. Let's ban Choice Band and Choice Specs; now nothing is going to nuke everything without some boost. Happy?

    Getting back to serious, Choice Band Druddigon is not a risk-free Pokemon; its STAB Outrage is strong, but you can still play around it - it gets locked into Outrage for 2-3 turns, it is slow, all of its other moves have drawbacks, and it gets worn down very easily. This isn't like it is a Tornadus-T discussion, where we are discussing a Pokemon that literally takes no skill to use to 6-0 teams. Druddigon isn't ban worthy.
     
  16. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    Please explain to me how you can "play around" a CB Druddigon without 1 of 3 fairly uncommon pokemon in the tier. Also please explain to me how Druddigon gets "worn down very easily" when it has to be near half health - that's around 4 switch ins to Stealth Rock, or the equivalent of saccing 1 reasonably powerful mon - to even be revenged by some super effective STAB moves.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2013
  17. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    Just because something is a good wallbreaker does not mean it is broken. Sure, not many Pokemon are switching into it safely, but the same applies to every other wallbreaker in their respective tiers, such as Specs Latios (OU), Rampardos (NU), Swords Dance Heracross (UU), etc. Sure, they all have flaws, but so does Druddigon. It is pitass slow, and every move it uses has penalties, as Dr. Doom mentioned:

    I hate it when everybody assumes something is broken because it is a good wallbreaker. Wallbreakers are meant to have few safe switch-ins; that is what allows them to break walls. Druddigon's bulk is indeed good, you can easily revenge kill it with that shitty speed:

    252+ Atk Choice Band Aggron Head Smash vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Druddigon: 391-462 (110.45 - 130.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Druddigon: 283-334 (79.94 - 94.35%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Life Orb Hitmonlee Hi Jump Kick vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Druddigon: 313-370 (88.41 - 104.51%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 Atk Flying Gem Archeops Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Druddigon: 312-367 (88.13 - 103.67%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Now, they are all taking Rough Skin recoil, but you get the idea that Druddigon is not as broken as it seems.
     
  18. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Yes but Druddigon is far harder to revenge kill than Rampardos or Latios, Ramp is weak to Aqua Jet/Mach Punch and has poor defense and middling Speed, whereas Latias can be Pursuit Trapped and is Weak to Ice Shard.

    Band Aggron is a good but rare pokemon, however it relies on hitting an 80% accuracy move, which can FAIL YOU WHEN YOU MOST NEED IT FUCK (sorry, still bitter) and is an incredibly powerful move/pokemon.

    Durant again has to hit an 80% move, and isn't even guaranteed to kill after Rocks.

    Hitmonlee is only Guaranteed after Rocks, and unless Drudd is locked into Outrage it can switch in to any Ghost or Psychic with impunity, and HJK is unreliable.

    Archeops is rare, only Guaranteed after rocks, has to have it's gem intact and takes rough skin damage which is detrimental to it cuz of its ability.

    I agree on all of Drudd's moves having Drawback though, SP lowers stats, Outrage leaves it vulnerable to Revenge Killers and lets Steelix/Aggron come in for free, Sucker Punch makes it Set Up Fodder, and EQ has immunities, bu EQ/Dragon Claw are generally reliable moves for getting off some good damage without any downsides.

    Jynx, Offensive Cryo, Aggron and Escav are probably the best and most reliable revenge killers, all can OHKO and either resist Outrage or outspeed.
     
  19. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    Just because something is a wallbreaker that doesn't mean it can't be broken. There are only 2 Pokemon that are in LU that can switch into Outrage, both of which can be destroyed with another attack. Unlike Latios and Rampardos, Druddigon has amazing bulk and is extremely hard to OHKO and extremely easy to switch into play. Unlike Heracross, it doesn't require a boost and doesn't have a weakness to a number of common attacks. Unlike all three, there is no abundance of resists to Druddigon's STAB move in LU; there are only 3 Steel-types in LU, one of which is 2HKO'd. Of the Steels not in LU, only 2 are usable and one of which is still 2HKO'd. None of these Steels have any healing. There is a plain difference between Druddigon and all of the other wallbreakers. If you don't have Steelix or Aggron on your team, something is going to die. Steelix and Aggron both have to worry about Superpower and Earthquake. Druddigon isn't just a suspect because you can't easily switch into it; it's because it can 2HKO everything in the metagame with extremely little prediction while still having a huge number of chances to switch into play thanks to fantastic typing and a near unresisted STAB.


    So, Druddigon is barely OHKO'd by the most powerful attacks in the tier? Does that mean that it somehow can't get a free kill nearly every match? Yes, if you carry one of LU's extremely powerful Pokemon you can revenge Druddigon, just like you could carry a select number of Poekmon to revenge kill every broken Pokemon that's every been a suspect.

    Cherry picking the most powerful pokemon that are in the tier (and Archeops) to show that Druddigon is easy to revenge kill doesn't make your argument strong. It only shows that Druddigon is so bulky that you have to use the most powerful things in the tier to even try and stop it.

    This is why Druddigon is a suspect. Not only does it get a free kill on the vast majority of Pokemon in LU, but it has the bulk to switch into play as often as it needs to, and makes it hard to revenge kill without using an extremely select number of Pokemon. Druddigon doesn't just break walls, it tanks attacks, and then nukes you with an attack only 2-3 Pokemon in the tier can handle.
     
  20. Double01

    Double01 Member

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    Band Druddigon has to lock itself into Outrage which is even more of a hinderance than aggron or durant using an 80% move js.

    Also wall breakers are suppose to break walls. The same thing can be said for HC durant or CB Aggron so posting useless calcs isn't going to help. (yes Ik druddigon has better typing than/defenses than the other 2).
     
  21. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Afro Smash
    I will say however there are far more than 2 Usable Steel types in the tier, Klinklang, Bisharp, Escavalier, Magneton, Aggron, Steelix, Ferroseed and Durant are all viable Steel types in LU. Bisharp is 2HKO'd and can deal around 50% with Sucker Punch, Klinklang can deal around 50% with Gear Grind, and can be 2HKO'd if Drudd is Rough Skin, Durant is 2HKO'd but can OHKO after Rocks, Escavalier depending on the Spread can live and OHKO with Megahorn, Aggron is 3HKO'd and OHKO's back with Head Smash, Eviolite Magneton is 3HKO'd and can 2HKO back after Rocks, Steelix takes nothing and can wear Drudd down with EQ and Ferroseed takes minimal damage and wears down Drudd very fast with Leech Seed + Iron Barbs.

    So if Druddigon decides to lock itself in to Outrage (which it needs to do to pick up a lot of 2HKO's on Defensive mons) then there are a quite a few Steels that can come in and take it out, some can direct switch in. Now obviously Drudd has coverage options to take these out, but usually just carrying a Steel type will make the Druddigon user a lot more cautious as opposed to just spamming Outrage, making it easier to play around. Locking itself in to Outrage also means it can be Sub stalled by a lot of pokemon until it gets confused and then either start attacking or start setting up, or you can bring in a revenge killer safely to kill it.

    It should also be noted that Druddigon is quite easy to wear down, it's weak to all Hazards and has no form of recovery, and it's Dragon typing means you use it to sponge a lot of FWG attacks, so usually by the time Drudd is on the field it's taken 12% from SR and around 20% from an Attack, making its list of potential revenge killers a lot longer.

    If you 'know' this then why are you comparing it to the other 2 which have worse defensive typing and are far easier to revenge kill?
     
  22. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    I meant to say bulky Steels in LU, my bad. Durant, Bisharp, Esca, and Klinklang are 2HKO'd with SR on their standard sets. Magneton has to have both Eviolite and a good bit of HP investment to take the attacks, and then has to have HP Ice and a lot of SpA investment to 2HKO back. Ferroseed and Klinklang aren't in LU either, which is why I omitted them (not that they aren't usable, but just because they simply aren't "in LU"). Steelix and Aggron are the only bulky steels that can take more than two of Druddigon's attacks. Only Durant can actually try to OHKO without being out sped and 2HKO'd. Bisharp has to try and get lucky with Substitute to come out alive and either way is down to less than 25%.


    I'm not sure if you mean that you sac something for a steel to come in, or some form of pivot situation, but most of the Steels can't switch into Druddigon, and only Aggron can punish the switch enough to really hurt Druddi's team. All of the other steel's are 2HKO'd (Esca, Klinklang) or can only punish with hazards (Ferroseed). Yes, Druddigon can't
    freely spam a Outrage to 2HKO everything if you carry one of those few Pokemon, but it can still do a lot of damage if it either waits until that one pokemon is gone/weakened, or just lures it with an Earthquake / Superpower. Sure, you can try and pivot around Druddigon, and having a Steel makes it easier / possible, but that same line of logic applied to other suspects in various tiers.

    Yes, if you switch Druddigon into attacks, it will get worn down. But that also means that Druddigon can launch nuclear Outrages and Dragon Claws. The fact that Druddigon can actually switch into attacks and then retaliate is actually a good thing for something that people (mistakenly) think is a wallbreaker. Druddigon can tank a lot of punishment while dishing out seriously high amounts of damage, just like Rhyperior did when it was down here.
     
  23. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    I did not mean to imply that wallbreakers can't be broken, I said that just because something is a good wallbreaker does not mean it is automatically broken.
     
  24. Beastly

    Beastly Active Member

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    Druddigon as been in this tier for as long as I remember that if you say the word Lu the first word pokemon you think of is drudd because its used so much and for good reason.
    But it is not broken. Ive used this plenty of times from needing a massive threat to getting rocks up.
    On rocks drudd i haven't seen it being good i mean it gets the job done but so does crustle ferroseed clefable and the first two get gets spikes up too and clefable is a great special wall.
    Banded Drudd is very threating but thanks to The Steel types in the tier [Steelix Ferroseed Aggron Durant] It cant spam outrage and if it spams Eq um thank you Sub NP Mismagius sweep.
    Sp Def drudd i havent seen used too good if someone proves its awesomeness show me but for what ive seen not banned worthy on Sp def.

    Lu is Drudds Home so keep it there i say NO BAN
     
  25. Ssshanto

    Ssshanto New Member

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    So much discussions, but Druddigon is just too good.
    People are saying Drudd is countered by "steel" types, Ferroseed, Durant and Escavalier.

    If you run Flamethrower, All of them are OHKOed(except maybe abit of spdef Ferroseed) and it takes down Tang easily.
    Also, with its great bulk, setting rocks is easy.

    So something with 3 uses, Ultra powerful Dragon Claw/Outrages, Outspeeding almost all (Ferro/Esca) steel that "counter" him and OHKO and rocks.

    BAN PLZ
     
  26. WizzleKidd

    WizzleKidd Wizzlin' PO since Feb '11

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    This is just perfect. WE JUST GOT TO BAN DRUDDIGON NOW!!! Flamethrower does not OHKO Steelix. Plus is so extremely rare....

    ....No but seriously don't.
    Druddigon has great bulk yes, and can set up rocks easy, great. That's what it does. Yes also because SR Druddigon boasts the same power as CB too? No point discussing this.


    Yes it has access to a CB Outrage but being locked into it can you mess you up at times e.g. opponent switching in their steel type.
    And please can we not forget that there are many checks to the band set. First off Druddigon is slow thus can be played around and crippled (I admit you're quite fucked if you have nothing bulky like Tangrowth or steel) second there are many flaws, superpower lowering stats, EQ missing, sucker punch failing, wrong prediction with outrage...fire punch being weak.. Just not feeling any overwhelming presence.

    Also something to think about, this would really upset the LU ecosystem.. CB Entei, durant, feraligater e.g would all be wrecking havoc with Druddy missing and then what? Suspect discussion this... suspect discussion that.....

    TL;DR - With some flaws, Druddigon slots into LU with its usefulness and has replaced Slowking as the new king. NO BAN.
     
  27. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    Actually, CB drudd 2hko's both durant and escav with outrage. Wat. Flamethrower is an option, but meh. I just think cb drudd hits way too hard. The only steel types that take a hit are Steelix, Aggron, and Ferroseed. CB drudd is very slow, but being forced to sack something to it is ridiculous. All 3 have rather low usage on Lu, ferroseed actually being Nu. I think people are really underestimating the raw power of CB drudd, he has really plenty of opportunities to switch it. Gatr, Tang, Uxie, Clefable, Liligant, Rotoms, slowking, alom, roselia, etc. After a switch in, he beats all of these pokes 1v1. Rotom can trick him it's scarf/specs, but all that'll do is allow you to revenge kill it, you were still forced to sack something. Can drudd be revenge killed? yes, with really powerful moves, but it's still possible. But to revenge kill it, that means you had to let something die. When you have to let something die to switch in, it's broken. To all the people who talked about Aggron as a counter, I doubt many of you actually used it since he's sitting at 6%. Look at the top used 30 pokes, then look at the ones that can switch into drudd. That's right, 2. Now if you want to kill it back, both need to rely on hitting a 80% accurate move and both require choice bands to do so. CB aggron is the most common aggron I believe, but CB durant makes up about 10% of durants usage. 95% of teams I see have something that can take 1 cb outrage, but about 5% have something to take 2. I think CB drudd hits too hard in NU as well as having only 2 weaknesses. It also has moves to hit its "counters" for ohkos in fire punch and EQ (not counting steelix although steelix can't do much back). This thing 2hko's pokes that have great bulk and resist the hit, seriously? (escavalier/durant/bisharp). Ban.

    And as to the aboves post saying "oh switch your steel type into it and you're safe" l0l ok. Please, switch your escav into cb drudd, tell me how that goes :]. Gatr has many other counters outside of drudd, as does entei. durant is another story and drudd does not beat it lolwut.
     
  28. WizzleKidd

    WizzleKidd Wizzlin' PO since Feb '11

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  29. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    So based on what you said, Druddigon can be running three sets at once, good to know.
    (Mixed, SR, and Choice Band.)

    Alright, I have used Druddigon quite a bit and followed this Suspect discussion long enough.

    The main sets that should be brought into discussion are the Choice Banded set and Bulky-Offensive Stealth Rocking set. Yes, mixed and Restalk Druddigon have a niche, but they're not common enough, nor consistently effective.

    As a few other posters stated, Druddigon does 2hko Pokemon like Durant and Escavlier with CB Outrage and it hits really hard in general. However, it's not nearly as powerful as Entei, Durant, Moltres, Escavlier, etc. Druddigon's power isn't the defining factor that makes it potentially broken. Druddigon's bulk is.

    Druddigon doesn't only have a typing weak to only two rather uncommon attack in types in the tier, but it also resists fire, water, and grass. In addition, it is bulky enough to avoid OHKOs from remotely everything bar a few boosted and/or super effective attacks. While doing this, it has the above-average (but still not alone game breaking) power, or the ability to be a utility with SR and such.

    Although Druddigon has the ability to tank hits with ease and dish out massive damage, I feel it is still incredibly good, but not quite broken. Some people say that with the bulk, power, and the amazing 27% usage - it is just plain unhealthy for the metagame. Well, I beg to differ. It is a nice check to the FWG cores and it still isn't so incredibly strong or bulky (as it still gets 2HKOd by a lot of common moves) that it doesn't cut it for broken.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2013
  30. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    252 Atk Choice Band Druddigon (+Atk) Outrage vs 172 HP/0 Def Escavalier: 45.06% - 53.09% (2 hits to KO)

    ^standard banded escavalier. If you actually read what I said with an open mind, you'd see that my point was that the usage of his counters was too low, and he has coverage moves for them all, aka no counters.

    "wait whats the point here" - you

    Now let's read my post where you commented that <3
    "All 3 have rather low usage on Lu, ferroseed actually being Nu. I think people are really underestimating the raw power of CB drudd, he has really plenty of opportunities to switch it. Gatr, Tang, Uxie, Clefable, Liligant, Rotoms, slowking, alom, roselia, etc. After a switch in, he beats all of these pokes 1v1.

    Isn't reading a wonderful thing?

    I said "CB drudd beats durant", as in it 2hkos and non cb durant doesn't ohko. I said durant beats drudd on the switch in as well. I'll take this apart
    You switch durant into drudd. Durant will get 1 hit off, and then die.
    first statement
    now for the second one
    You switch drudd into a durant. Drudd will die in this situation. Escav isn't 2hko'd by outrage with the right EV's?
    252 Atk Choice Band Druddigon (+Atk) Outrage vs 248 HP/0 Def Escavalier: 42.57% - 50.15% (2-3 hits to KO) Your calc was right, but you didn't factor in rocks which you factored in your moltres arguments. Drudd will have a ~85% chance to ohko escav if you're running the lesser used bulkier set. I was not complaining at all about aggrons 80% move, I simply factored it in as you factored in moltres's inaccurate moves. You also said you can para drudd with some of the pokes I mentioned, lolwut since when does drudd care about para. If drudd is the only poke keeping others in check, they should be suspected, we should go for a balanced metagame where all teams can work well ideally. Aggron + steelix EQ. Escav ferroseed durant -> fire punch/flamethrower. Nothing stops CB drudd. You can't say that's balanced out by it checking other threatening pokemon. Bisharp and Durant may not be the BULKIEST, but they have great defenses, base 100 for bisharp and 70 hp I think and durant is like 70 hp and 109 def? Don't quote me on that, but those are respectable defenses and they RESIST the hit, but get 2hko'd. Escav is also 2hko'd almost always. Ferroseed is NU. That's 2 pokes, Aggron and Steelix, aggron being the only threatening one and it dies to an EQ.
     
  31. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    In my opinion Druddy is way too powerful. I have only been testing its offensive presence so that is all that I will discuss. I might do the defensive reasons for why it should stay/go later depending on how the thread goes. I've been messing around with a few sets and they are as follows:
    Not-so-standard mixed
    Druddigon (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sheer Force
    EVs: 156 HP / 252 Atk / 100 SAtk
    Brave Nature (+Atk, -Spd)
    - ThunderPunch (I don't get much use from this. Might replace with Sucker Punch)
    - Heat Wave
    - Outrage
    - Earthquake
    The EV's here ensure that I 0hko Max HP Max Sp.D Ferroseed with Heat Wave while not taking anything away from my attack or bulk. The Speed ends up not mattering 99% of the time, but can be altered to accommodate for other Druddigon's. The nature can be changed too, but I'd rather keep my defenses.[/HIDE]
    Bulky Phazer/Sweeper
    (Druddigon) (M) @ Rocky Helmet
    Trait: Sheer Force
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Dragon Tail
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Hone Claws[/HIDE]
    Standard Band (Extra speed)
    (Druddigon) (F) @ Choice Band
    Trait: Rough Skin
    EVs: 224 HP / 252 Atk / 32 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Outrage
    - Superpower
    - Sucker Punch
    - Dragon Claw[/HIDE]
    Defensive Support
    (Druddigon) (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Rough Skin
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Glare
    - Dragon Tail
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake[/HIDE]

    The Mixed Drudd I have been using hits hard enough with the LO for me. Earthquake and Heat Wave are there for the Steels and Tangrowth/Tangela/Ferroseed. I've even used Lum/Expert Belt with this set and got pretty much the same effect, with the ability to better bluff my choice. This thing is really just a monster. Nothing likes taking hits from it, and all the usual counters/checks are obsolete with Heat Wave and Earthquake. While it doesn't hit quite as hard as the Band does, it still takes massive chunks from anything that switches into it. It gets the best use as a lead and mid-late game.

    The bulky phazer is just so amazing. When coupled with Hazard stacking teams this thing is a complete monster. Even when it isn't this Drudd is difficult to deal with. Physical attackers get annihilated by my Rocky Helmet and Rough Skin, and I can easily rest off damage thanks to the amazing bulk Druddigon has. Hone Claws boosts an already great base 120 attack and ups my accuracy do Dragon Tail doesn't miss. This thing hits surprisingly hard sometimes. The EV's can be messed around with and I have yet to find my "perfect" spread.

    For all of those saying locking Druddigon into Outrage is bad you obviously haven't used this. Nearly everything in the LU meta takes 50%+ from it. If something doesn't die, Banded Druddy is severely crippling something. The only downside to spamming Outrage is the confusion afterwards. With the offensive nature of the tier, chances are Druddy will be finding himself hitting more offensively oriented Pokemon and even if he isn't, nothing is going to take the hit well. Not to mention that common sense tells you "Don't spam Outrage if the opponent has Steelix". Pretty much anything else is taking a massive chunk.

    I really have nothing to say about the support set. It just is what it is ya know?
    At the end of the day this thing just kind of annihilates the entire metagame. Nothing is safe when Druddigon is being used. The % usage of the sets is irrelevant to be honest. This changes with the metagame for starters, and people tend to lack creativity when using standard Pokemon like Druddigon. Druddigon is pretty versatile but people seem to be making him a one note Pokemon.

    Using this on Trick Room is a completely different story. He is one of the few Pokemon that can lock themselves into a move on a Trick Room (team) and not think twice about it. Even if you don't, Life Orb/Lum Berry are great options to aiding Druddigon and overcoming his only weakness in his speed.

    Offensively I believe Drudd should be banned. I will pay more attention defensively and see how it fares as many having been saying having him as a defensive mon helps deal with many treats in LU.
     
  32. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    Druddigon is more powerful than Entei (when they are both using their best attack that has potential harm for both pokemon); Druddigon's Outrage hits harder than a Choice Band Durant (all of Durant's STAB moves are only 80 BP), Moltres has to use the Modest Specs set (which is fucking amazing btw) to be more powerful, and is only marginally stronger at that.

    Esca is the only thing that has any notable advantage in power, and it's still pretty small.
     
  33. Orcelot

    Orcelot AKA Angelus

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    Also, you have to keep in mind that the player using Druddigon can pretty much just click one button to do massive damage to almost anything. Other than Steelix and Aggron, even steel types can be 2HKO'd by a CB Outrage. While these other Pokemon are certainly strong, they at least can't just spam one move and win against a decent team.
     
  34. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Honestly, Druddigon is extremely reminiscent of Rhyperior. It's not as bulky since it doesn't have Solid Rock, and Outrage isn't as safe to spam as Earthquake was, but the bulk to live extremely strong attacks and strength to KO back is still there. I'm mainly going to be comparing Druddigon's traits to Rhyperior's in this post since the two play extremely similar to each other despite the type differences, but I'll make it so that newer people will still understand where I'm getting at.

    Going further into its bulk, Druddigon's got a lot of things going for it. Resistances to Water, Grass, and Fire actually help quite a bit, locking down strong presences in the tier like Sceptile, Rotom-C, Slowking until it burns, and makes Moltres think twice about nuking things with Fire Blast. Dragon attackers are basically non existent, with Fraxure being the second best and nowhere near Druddigon's level, and Ice isn't exactly the most common Hidden Power type in the tier, or at least it has a lot of competition since a lot of special attackers depend on another type depending on the coverage they need.
    More than the obvious, though, Druddigon can simply eat Hurricane from Moltres, Stone Edge from Kabutops, and any of Durant's attacks and KO every single one of them back with the right move. Banded Druddigon 2HKOs Durant with Outrage anyway. Honestly, this is what makes CB Druddigon so scary; not just the tier shattering power, but the sheer bulk it possesses. Tons of walls are 2HKO'd by Outrage, and every offensive pokemon that can out speed has to launch extremely powerful(often inaccurate enough to deter from using them in the first place) attacks to have a chance at killing it. And if the opposing player feels like bringing it out while its healthy against something that can't kill it? The game turns into, at best, a 50/50 chance at either losing something or Druddigon being able to switch out due to not using Outrage.

    That's another thing as well. Druddigon doesn't have to use Outrage to deal plenty of damage to the opposing team, as it has coverage moves like Earthquake, Superpower, Fire Punch and Rock Slide. The last two may be a little lacking in power, but that's what Sheer Force is for. It's not about the fact that it boosts those moves power, but it turns solid checks and counters(read: all those steel types in LU) into shaky answers to a monstrous threat.
    On the flip side to this, though, there's the fact that Druddigon does have to use some prediction to be used to its fullest, since the steels are so very useful in LU for things other than the dragon as well. Rhyperior had the privilege of being able to spam its STABs while both being able to switch out and having the guessing room to not have to use Megahorn or Ice Punch because of both its bulk and Solid Rock. Plus the fact that neither of them locked Rhyperior into not being able to switch.

    Ultimately, though, Outrage locking Druddigon into battle is really the only downside about using it. The speed problem is there but it's so bulky that it normally doesn't cause problems. I'm still torn on Druddigon simply because although it is amazing, its speed and Outrage's downside makes you trade pokemon with your opponent more than you'd think, as long as they know what they're doing. Still, consistently forcing a trade every battle may be grounds enough to ban it, depending on your perspective.

    EDIT: 252 HP Escavalier can live 2 outrages, and always KOs 252 HP Druddigon with CB Megahorn. It's a pretty good check all considering, since Fire Punch is only really useful for it and Durant.
     
  35. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    The thing is, Druddigon has limited amounts of switch-ins though. It sounds crazy because he has so many resistances, but that Choice Band set absolutely hates taking any form of damage at all. And it is so slow that you can easily wear it down before it even attacks. Also, there are plenty of Pokemon that can take at least one Outrage and then respond back with a strong attack. Sure, call it a "sacrifice", but just because you have to sacrifice something does not mean it is broken. That is what wallbreakers are supposed to do - have a lot of power. It is not like its Outrage is OHKOing everything bar Steelix or Aggron; if you want to control the metagame and keep it from becoming too offensive, you are doing it wrong.
     
  36. Orcelot

    Orcelot AKA Angelus

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    That is just nonsense. Looking at the usage stats, the top 5 Pokemon are Druddigon, Uxie, Entei, Slowing and Rotom-C. Of those 5 Pokemon, the only one it can't safely switch into is itself. Entei is a bit shaky, since Flare Blitz still does quite a lot, but it can avoid the 2HKO thanks to its resistance and start firing off attacks. Looking down the list you've got Pokemon like Typlosion, Manectric and Sceptile which Druddigon can also switch into fairly easily.
     
  37. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    Standard escav is 172/0 I believe, but 252 can live 2 outrages, but if rocks are up it has I believe an 80% chance to 2hko. Fire punch is really only for those 2, and some obscene things like sub cm mismagius (unless u have mold breaker in which case loleqspam)

    I feel like most of the discussion points have been said on both sides, just need to weigh em imo. I'm not even going to respond to the last post by Alfalfa because I'm scared of what I'll say :l For the sake of avoiding an infraction for spam, I'll contribute more in this post however. I wasn't around for the rhyperior era, but I'm assuming banded rhyperior was a massive threat it seems? or was it just offensive w/ rocks? In either case, drudd is a little similar, it may lack solid rock, but it has mold breaker, rough skin, and sheer force. 1 good defensive abillity, 2 good offensive abilities (although sheer force isn't that good on a poke like drudd tbh). You may be "locked into outrage" but that's not a downside when you kill everything anyways, especially since you have CB in the first place and are gonna switch out once you get confused.
     
  38. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Flare Blitz vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Druddigon: 161-190 (45.48 - 53.67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    This might sound hypocritical, but check your facts; CB Druddigon has a 41.41% chance to be 2HKOed without Stealth Rock, and it always 2HKOed with Stealth Rock. I might have been too broad with the "limited switch-ins", but what I really meant was how its resistances are not as great as they seem. Most of the Pokemon it is wired to check can still beat it: Bulky Waters in LU carry Scald 99% of the time, which keeps Druddigon from switching in, and offensive Water-types always have a way of dealing with Druddigon, whether it be Ice Beam, Ice Punch, or in Crawdaunt's case, Crunch. Entei can still 2HKO Choice Band Druddigon with Flare Blitz, especially with Stealth Rock up, and every other Fire-type can still do over 50% to Druddigon with one attack, sans Magmortar. That limits it down to Rotom, Manectric, Magneton, Sceptile, Ammoonguss, and Lilligant, assuming you have Sleep Clause up (Druddigon hates Leech Seed from Tangrowth, and Sceptile's Acrobatics hurts). Suddenly, that huge list of Pokemon that Choice Band Druddigon could guarantee a safe switch in on is limited down to a select number of Pokemon. So basically, Druddigon is not "switch in on resist, freely Spam Outrage".
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2013
  39. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    The thing is... Druddigon has plenty of switch in opportunities. The Banded set doesn't hate damage any more than any other Pokemon does... I don't even get what you're trying to say there. Druddy isn't easily worn down either. It takes boosted attack, choice attacks, some of the most powerful and most risky moves in the tier to do good enough damage against him. Unless you specifically prepare for taking a on a Banded Drudd (which means carrying Steelix, Aggron, and/or Bulky Escavalier) you are pretty much guaranteed to lose one Poke, and have another severely crippled. And that's if you play it perfectly. Outrage is 50%+ to everything not Steelix or Aggron. The 50% is on the DEDICATED PHYSICAL WALLS. Offensive Pokemon are losing significantly more. That is easily enough to be considered broken.

    A few calcs vs. offensive Pokemon
    252 Atk Choice Band Druddigon (+Atk) Outrage vs 4 HP/0 Def Krookodile: 122.89% - 144.88% Guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Choice Band Druddigon (+Atk) Outrage vs 4 HP/0 Def Rotom-C: 119.01% - 140.08% Guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Choice Band Druddigon (+Atk) Outrage vs 4 HP/0 Def Moltres: 103.42% - 122.05% Guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Choice Band Druddigon (+Atk) Outrage vs 252 HP/0 Def Hitmonchan: 121.71% - 143.42% Guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Choice Band Druddigon (+Atk) Outrage vs 4 HP/0 Def Entei: 93.82% - 110.75% 62.5% chance to OHKO
    252 Atk Choice Band Druddigon (+Atk) Outrage vs 136 HP/0 Def Entei: 86.17% - 101.73% 12.5% chance to OHKO
    252 Atk Choice Band Druddigon (+Atk) Outrage vs 4 HP/0 Def Sceptile: 153.55% - 180.85% Guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Choice Band Druddigon (+Atk) Outrage vs 252 HP/0 Def Gallade: 127.35% - 150% Guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Choice Band Druddigon (+Atk) Outrage vs 252 HP/0 +1 Def Gallade: 84.71% - 100% 6.25% chance to OHKO
    252 Atk Choice Band Druddigon (+Atk) Outrage vs 252 HP/0 +2 Def Gallade: 63.82% - 75.29% 2 hits to KO Bulk Up Gallade loses at full HP
    252 Atk Choice Band Druddigon (+Atk) Outrage vs 4 HP/0 Def Galvantula: 163.12% - 192.55% Guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Choice Band Druddigon (+Atk) Outrage vs 252 HP/252 Def Spiritomb: 75.33% - 88.82% 2 hits to KO
    252 Atk Choice Band Druddigon (+Atk) Outrage vs 252 HP/252 Def Sigilyph: 80.17% - 94.25% 2 hits to KO
    252 Atk Choice Band Druddigon (+Atk) Outrage vs 252 HP/252 +1 Def Sigilyph: 53.45% - 62.93% 2 hits to KO Cosmic Power Sigilyph loses w/ max physical. Even burned Drudds lose after getting one hit off (assuming Sigi comes in unburned)
    252 Atk Choice Band Druddigon (+Atk) Outrage vs 252 HP/252 Def Sigilyph (+Def) : 36.49% - 43.1% 3-4 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
    252 Atk Choice Band Druddigon (+Atk) Outrage vs 4 HP/0 Def Feraligatr: 98.08% - 115.38% 87.5% chance to OHKO
    252 Atk Choice Band Druddigon (+Atk) Outrage vs 252 HP/0 Def Aerodactyl: 118.96% - 140.11% Guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Choice Band Druddigon (+Atk) Outrage vs 4 HP/0 Def Lilligant: 137.23% - 161.7% Guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Choice Band Druddigon (+Atk) Outrage vs 4 HP/0 Def Magmortar: 144.86% - 170.55% Guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Choice Band Druddigon (+Atk) Outrage vs 252 HP/0 Def Braviary: 95.79% - 112.87% 75% chance to OHKO
    252 Atk Choice Band Druddigon (+Atk) Outrage vs 252 HP/0 +1 Def Braviary: 63.86% - 75.25% 2 hits to KO
    252 Atk Choice Band Druddigon (+Atk) Outrage vs 252 HP/0 +2 Def Braviary: 48.27% - 56.68% 2-3 hits to KO Bulk Up Braviary loses
    252 Atk Choice Band Druddigon (+Atk) Outrage vs 4 HP/0 Def Kabutops: 111.45% - 131.68% Guaranteed OHKO
    What offensive Pokemon safely switches in?.... I mean well... what can AT ALL.
    [/HIDE]

    And for some defensive mons:
    252 Atk Choice Band Druddigon (+Atk) Outrage vs 252 HP/0 Def Uxie: 68.93% - 81.36% 2 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
    252 Atk Choice Band Druddigon (+Atk) Outrage vs 252 HP/252 Def Uxie (+Def) : 51.69% - 61.02% 2-3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
    252 Atk Choice Band Druddigon (+Atk) Outrage vs 252 HP/252 Def Tangrowth (+Def) : 46.29% - 54.95% 2-3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
    252 Atk Choice Band Druddigon (+Atk) Outrage vs 252 HP/0 Def Tangrowth (+Def) : 56.68% - 67.08% 2 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
    252 Atk Choice Band Druddigon (+Atk) Outrage vs 252 HP/252 Def Regirock (+Def) : 36.26% - 42.86% 3-4 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
    252 Atk Choice Band Druddigon (+Atk) Outrage vs 252 HP/0 Def Regirock: 45.6% - 53.85% 2-3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
    252 Atk Choice Band Druddigon (+Atk) Outrage vs 252 HP/252 Def Spiritomb (+Def) : 68.42% - 80.92% 2 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
    252 Atk Choice Band Druddigon (+Atk) Outrage vs 252 HP/252 Def Lanturn (+Def) : 67.4% - 79.3% 2 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
    252 -1 Atk Choice Band Druddigon (+Atk) Outrage vs 252 HP/252 Def Qwilfish (+Def) : 52.99% - 62.28% 2-3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
    252 Atk Choice Band Druddigon (+Atk) Outrage vs 252 HP/252 Def Alomomola (+Def) : 47.75% - 56.18% 2-3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)
    252 Atk Choice Band Druddigon (+Atk) Outrage vs 252 HP/0 Def Slowking: 92.89% - 109.64% 56.25% chance to OHKO
    252 Atk Choice Band Druddigon (+Atk) Outrage vs 252 HP/252 Def Slowking: 70.81% - 83.25% 2 hits to KO

    Durant and the other steels have been talked about, so I don't feel the need to calc those, but these are supposed to be bulky. Physically at that. Physical walls are simply not supposed to be broken with Physical attacks. That's not right. We aren't even discussing the mixed set with this.
    [/HIDE]
     
  40. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    PO Trainer Name:
    Alfalfa
     
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