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[BW2] Suspect Discussion: Druddigon

Discussion in 'Gen 5 LU' started by Xdevo, Sep 18, 2013.

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  1. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf Active Member

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    Agreeing with pnerd that Druddigon is amazing but it does force you to trade with your opponent more often than not. Referring to the CB if you aren't investing in bulk you aren't switching in willy-nilly because taking a hit and Stealth Rock damage is crippling to your bulk, such that you now will be able to revenged by things that couldn't do so from full health.

    I absolutely agree that CB Druddigon is terrifically devastating but having used it for a while now (I've used the other sets in the past (helped pioneer the mixed one :p) and they're nothing particularly suspect worthy) it does tend to very commonly trade with the opponent, it will get one kill, maybe two before being taken out by the opponent due to chip damage from dying Pokemon weakening it for a revenge, but two requires some good fortune and rarely any more than that.

    Relating to what pnerd stated at the end forcing a trade in each battle isn't enough grounds for a ban for me.
     
  2. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Really I'm on the fence about druddigon. I mean for one thing, it's CB set is absolutely devastating as we know. It's resisted by few, mainly steel types, and gets revenge killed while locked into Outrage by pokemon like Hitmonlee and potentially Medicham + some other fighting type pokemon pretty easily.

    I honestly prefer having an Offensive Bulky Tank use of Druddigon at times, with 252 HP/252 into a defense stat/20 remainder into Speed or Attack if I want to outspeed Tangrowth or not. He does get the coverage of EQ, Dragon Claw, Sucker Punch, and Flamethrower/Fire Punch/other filler as we all know. While it's not showing the devastating power of the CB set, this set can just as potentially score 1-2 KOs if not dent a lot of things that try to switch in. I've had a lot of success really depending on what I decide to use the 252 extra defense EVs for, as into one of the other stats with a +defensive nature can literally turn OHKO's and 2HKOs into 2HKOs and 3HKOs depending on if rocks are up or not. If it comes in on a resisted pokemon attack of Electric, Fire, Water, or Grass then the chances of it putting a dent in the Active Pokemon or the potential switch in is still pretty high, and if they expected an attack to OHKO the chances could be they don't and end up letting a pokemon die while druddigon can still die vs the next pokemon and use sucker punch for extra death damage, or switch out to come in on a resisted hit potentially later and do the same process over. Sadly, as a pokemon it doesn't last too long and while it finds it's way around the pokemon we've been talking about under certain circumstances, it lacks a recovery move outside of rest and will get warn down if it has to face a potentially powerful neutral hit.

    As for the Bulky Defensive style sets that focus on phazing/status, those really are more annoying to deal with, but don't last long outside rest and sleep talk, and with potential 1-2HKOs out there, you'd have to worry about not getting the right sleep talk move. Plus, I really didn't think about how much of an impact druddigon has on the tier in terms of what it does check/counter. Due to the dragon typing, it has the 4 key resistances in LU: Grass, Water, Fire, and Electric. There are about 20 pokemon in the LU tier "officially" based on the stats that druddigon resists a STAB of, while there are 45-50 pokemon constituted as LU with 4% or higher usage based on last month's stats. About half of them are dual-typed and and have access to a good dual type move that can deal damage to Druddigon. About half of those dual types can actually attempt to dent and or kill Druddigon. The other half of the tier is doing neutral damage, most of them do have the power to 2HKO the monster but are potentially OHKO'd back by a certain coverage move it may have. I've started to look at it as if Druddigon staying might be a good thing defensively for the amount of pokemon it does check and keep in balance, letting teams live easier. Without the thing, things would get potentially a lot more Offensive in terms of things dying in one hit. As in the 20 pokemon of the tier would have a frenzy vs each other and relying on the old FWGE cores of some magnitude in order to survive through matches, then have a way to count in the other 13 types that roam around, and the coverage moves to check them.

    In terms of a balance of power vs CB druddigon and a bulky defensive tank that has 120 base attack being able to dent a lot of pokemon if it's in on a resisted hit. It's a tough choice for me when I've used Druddigon and seen both sides really, I think Druddigon is going to be one of those pokemon that keep about half the tier in check unless we want supercharged FWGE types running around that actually have fair amount of coverage against about 10 of the other types, and offers a great other option than their main immunity.
     
  3. MewTheDestroyer

    MewTheDestroyer God

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    Druddigon is broken as hell. Nothing switches in safely to it, due to it's plethera of move options, and it's bulk allows it to take some super effective hits as well. The best things that can take a hit would be Steelix and Aggron, but they get wrecked by Superpower and Fire Punch.
     
  4. New Breed

    New Breed ka$h

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    Thanks for your insight you must be an incredible player!

    I honestly can't see why this suspect test is even a thing, yes Druddigon is a good Pokemon, yes it gets alot of usage, yes CB can 2HKO most of the tier but it clearly has significant drawbacks with the most obvious one being locked into a move for 2-3 turns and getting confused at the end (often inviting setup opportunities). I'm honestly sick of this theorymon shit if you actually play the tier you will know thats it's never as simple as "hey let me click outrage you die!!!!!!"
     
  5. Dr. Fomantis Toboggan

    Dr. Fomantis Toboggan man in the couch

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    If Stealth Rock is up then Durant has a 50% chance to ko. Throw in the Iron Head flinch hax that's not a bad percentage, and worse case scenario Durant faints and Drudd is left with a very small amount of hp locked into Outrage. Or you could miss I guess which sucks.
     
  6. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Druddigon is never going to switch into Durant though. Only time it should ever have to see durant is if it already locked into Outrage or you have Fire Punch. Likewise, Durant only ever tries to revenge druddi because of this fear of being 1 or 2HKO'd while switcing in.
     
  7. Tyki

    Tyki Change

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    Hey guys, more stuff incoming. I know, I know.

    We're going to TEST BAN Drudd from Wifi LU. We would love to hear your opinions on the tier with this test ban under this post. Same posting rules apply here. After a good amount of time (a few weeks or so), we will come to a decision on whether or not to ban Drudd or not.

    Regarding the Lower Tier Triathlon, Drudd will still be available for use. Again, this is only a test ban and ruining a tournament just for that is silly.

    Just a reminder, THINK BEFORE YOU POST. We are not afraid to infract you.

    Thanks all for understanding and happy testing!
     
  8. Dr. Fomantis Toboggan

    Dr. Fomantis Toboggan man in the couch

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    Sorry, I don't think you read the post right. I'm not talking about Druddigon switching into Durant, I'm talking about Durant switching into an Outrage, like in the post.
     
  9. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Two things are probably going to come from Druddi being test banned; the tier's going to get more offensive(ironically), and FWG cores are going to explode in popularity again, which pretty much goes with the tier becoming more offensive. As powerful as CB Druddi is, its defensive sets keep things like Rotom-C, offensive Slowking and Lilligant at bay as well. Sceptile for days.
     
  10. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Delta Stream

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    lol like half my teams now are unuseable because of drudd test ban

    On a serious note, I'm going to chime in (dont infract pls). What I've been hearing a lot is that Choice Band is a destructive nuke. While that may be true, what makes this thing even more threatening is the versatility of its sets. Maybe you may expect band, but its actually the ParaShuffler set, or you make the switch and find Rocks on the field. Or maybe, you might expect a Stealth Rock lead Turn 1 and find yourself nuked early game. Not knowing makes facing Druddigon much more dangerous, and finding out will usually cost you a Pokemon, or having one crippled, or something bad.

    I'm still kinda on the fence cuz I goddamn love Druddigon, so I'll abstain from actually outright voting for now
     
  11. Tyki

    Tyki Change

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    Bumping this due to lack of discussion. Here are some guiding questions:

    How does the tier react to the lack of Drudd?

    Which pokemon become more usable? Which become less usable?

    What takes the roles that Drudd used in the past?

    I don't want theorymoning, I want actual experience.
     
  12. Laurel

    Laurel Well-Known Member

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    Im using absol on my team now and sheer force steelix for rocks. I really dont like meta w.o drudd im seeing too many scarf tyhlosion spamming eruption. Fgw is being spammed so hard theres a guy on front page with fggww core... Im getting to use Fraxure which is fun though. Very underrated pokes that rips through fgw but growth sleeps it once you outrage. I think drudd made the meta better -sigh-
     
  13. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    With Druddigon out of the tier, teams no longer have a brainless pokemon to slot into a team that checks a majority of attackers, wallbreaks and team supports, often simultaneously. IMO it's a much healthier metagame without Druddigon around. There's no mindgames of "is it CB, is it bulky glare", there's no "welp i'm gonna have to sac something now" etc. More defensive/stally teams are much happier in the meta without Druddigon providing an easy way to take out a majority of the team. There's nothing really that takes the place of Druddigon in the meta because nothing did its jobs like it did. Now if you want a tank and a wallbreaker and an SR mon and a check to things like Rotom-C and Entei you have to build a team.
     
  14. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    Seeing more VoltTurn teams with Druddigon gone. Uxie is now the go-to Stealth Rocker, and forms a nice bulky VoltTurn core with Rotom-C, who benefits greatly from Druddigon being gone. I predicted that Entei would be very common as a result of the Moltres ban, but with Druddigon gone as well it managed to take the second place in the usage stats. Also worth noting is that many people lost their main SR user (let's be honest, Druddigon was by far the most popular one) so aside from Uxie, they looked into other options like Omastar and Crustle. This made spike stacking more prevalent indirectly. If that sounds too far fetched, Omastar and Crustle have a combined 20% usage atm while Kabutops and Hitmonchan have a whopping 31% usage together, or 1/5 and 1/3 teams respectively. And then I don't even count the lesser used ones like Qwilfish, Scolipede, Cryogonal and Hitmonlee.

    In my eyes this is unhealthy for the metagame, and while Druddigon wouldn't make spikestack any less overpowering, it would at least give people a very good option for a hazard setter and thus make spikestack a lot less prevalent. If anything Druddigon made the metagame more balanced and it would be nice to see it return for a second round.

    I also disagree with Aurist that stall is significantly more viable with Druddigon gone. If it is any more viable then it's probably related to Moltres getting banned together with Druddigon. Ofcourse it is impossible to be sure which of the two made stall harder to use, we can only theorymon now because they decided to ban the two pokes (and even more inconveniently, two of the best wallbreakers) at the same time >.> Also worth noting that Druddigon can't be an effective tank, wallbreaker and SR user all at the same time... that's exaggerating it to say the least.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2013
  15. Laurel

    Laurel Well-Known Member

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    When has there ever been a mind game is it CB or is it Bulky Glare. You can look at a team and notice if it's a wall or band / designated SR lead and since when has Drudd checks been different for Band or Glare... you always bring in your intimidater / steel poke... Anyways I agree with liar liar stall is only becoming using more because of Moltres not because of Druddigon.

    Druddigon is not a mindless poke that makes the meta worse it is antimeta and has good offensive/defensive typing and Stealth Rocks, which is exactly why it was S rank before it was banned. There are other pokemon that can be mindlessly slapped onto LU teams and achieve... SR Krookodile, SR Uxie, Slowking to name a few. Druddigon doesn't even hurt stall that badly... switch Momo into Outrage and then protect and it's confused... and if it's not go into Steelix and roar or SR.

    Some Rotom-C also run WoW so i don't think people ever relied on Druddi to counter it... maybe as a check, and with FGW spam now Entei is beyond easy to counter.

    You argue that Druddi makes teams more varied because it cannot be slapped onto a team, I'd like to argue the exact opposite. That's one less pokemon that can take out FGW cores, before if you had an FGW core you needed a steel poke outside, a qwilfish, or a very bulky tangrowth with sleep powder and were in constant fear of Sheer Force flamethrower, now people can run FGW offense with Gatr, Magmortar, and Sceptile with absolutely no fears. I honestly think the metagame is becoming more and more standard like gen 4 UU, because there is so little that can run through a generic core.
     
  16. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    It's not just FWG cores that are becoming significantly more powerful. Pokes like Rotom-C and Galvantula have virtually no commonly used checks right now, only the rare Clefable and Ferroseed. Their ability to Volt Switch out causes so many 50/50 situations in the new metagame. No problems with the occasional mindgames, but if the only ways to stop VoltTurn with common pokes are Krookodile and Lanturn it's just not funny anymore. I mean when gen 6 is properly coded Lanturn can't even paralyze Electric-types so it just dies to Leaf Storm like Krookodile if you predict wrong.

    Speaking of gen 6, with all the new Fairy-types being added Druddigon would have a very hard time, keep that it mind. I think Druddigon should go back to LU just to see how it would react to the new Fairy's, don't you agree? I think that would be very interesting to see, as without Drudd nobody would have any reason to use Fairy-types, which would be a great shame in my opinion.
     
  17. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

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    That's not the point. This is specifically Gen 5.

    If anything Drudd makes the tier more balanced by being a Dragon (don't say Fraxure and friends we all know that is impractical) and providing a pivot so that the tier isn't as overpowering. It doesn't break the metagame, it helps it.

    Drudd should come back because to be honest the metagame is worse without it than with it.
     
  18. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    I see why people want Drudd back, and can agree for the most part. Drudd was a pretty important member of the LU tier with his key resistances to things like Rotom-C and Entei. He was able to reliably set up rocks, and his only controversial set was his CB set *in my mind. I don't know why I was talking about the effect of his defensive set. I think Drudd could come back, his CB set didn't have too much usage honestly and BW2 is almost over. He did have a huge affect on the tier when he left, but this could also be a bad thing. He was a cornerstone of LU, having almost 30% usage, so of course his ban would affect the tier :l He can come back is what I'll say from now on

    Tyki edit: Please keep out the unnecessary comments.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 23, 2013
  19. VuvuzelaΒzz

    VuvuzelaΒzz •Sage

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    Liarliarpantsonfire:
    [secret]
    The stats you're referencing have Druddigon at #1 in usage.

    If you're going to state that you disagree with Aurist that stall is more viable post-ban, you should at least justify that opinion. As for the tank/wallbreaker/CBer, you're missing Aurist's point; he's saying that the hole Druddigon left is obvious because of the fact it performed roles it filled so well, and that because there's no single Pokemon in the tier than can fill it's shoes the tier is more diverse.

    Lets assume that what you say about them having no "commonly used checks"(quite open to interpretation) is true. In that case, the metagame has to adjust to them by bringing up their checks in usage, which actually supports the claim that Druddigon's ban makes the tier more diverse.

    Now it's time to dispute the actual claim. Firstly you say "check", which means that all that a Pokemon needs to do to fit that definition is be able to switch into the opposing Pokemon's most commonly used move and be able to defeat it in return. Considering that the most commonly used moves of both your examples are electric type, Lanturn and Krook are in fact checks, so you're claim falls apart right there(Note I'm not saying they're reliable, but you didn't clarify).

    The tiering for XY is separate from that of BW, not a continuation of it. As a result none of the bans put in place during BW apply in XY apart from the initial OU banlist, which isn't relevant to the point you're making.[/secret]
    Laurel:
    [secret]
    Most "intimidaters / steel pokes" are 2HKO'd after SR by CB Outrage.

    Yes, Druddigon was a really good Pokemon in LU, but I don't see how that's a counter-argument to it being broken. No one's saying that the fact it fit onto the vast majority of teams made it broken, only that it played a part in making the tier less diverse, which apparently a lot of people think is what the retest is about(Obviously I don't). Also, apparently you haven't used "Momo" against Druddigon, because Protect resets Outrage's count. I also like how you assume that everyone runs a Physically defensive Regenerator + Steelix.

    Hence why he said "check", as opposed to "counter".

    So you now need more than one Pokemon to deal with a three-Pokemon core that can take numerous forms. Sounds fine to me. The message I get from this paragraph is:

    "I don't mind Druddigon centralizing the tier, but, by god, I find FWG centralisation utterly abhorrent!"(Note I'm not arguing that centralisation alone is relevant to this or any other suspect)[/secret]
    NidoTheKing:
    [secret]
    It's perfectly possible for other sets of a broken Pokemon to be healthy for a metagame, but that isn't relevant to whether or not it's broken or not. I understand the point you're making is more aimed at the impact it's had on the metagame because of the fact that this is a test-ban, but the only impact on the metagame that's truly significant as to whether Druddigon should be banned or not is it's impact on the viability of stall / defensive play(In my opinion). People's preferred centralizing force in the metagame(there always has to be one) is purely a matter of opinion, unless one side can prove that the other's / others' choice is broken, which is what Druddigon "being a Dragon" boils down to (Druddigon vs FWGE). Things like it being a pain to FWGE and FWGE being better without it around don't really affect it's standing. In fact, it's ability to check common Pokemon in that sense was part of why it was suspected, as it allowed it to come in and fire off nukes.[/secret]
    I'd like to say I'm not arguing for either side with this post, merely countering arguments that I find to be flawed. If you reply as to validity of the arguments I've criticized, that's fine, but please don't try to debate whether Druddigon is broken or not with me via a response to this post, because that's not why I wrote it.
     
  20. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    Reply in bold.

     
  21. VuvuzelaΒzz

    VuvuzelaΒzz •Sage

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    Yes, when Druddigon was in the metagame stall basically needed to run Steelix(or Steelix 0.5, aka Metang) along with a physically bulky Regenerator pivot in order to not lose a Pokemon if a CB Druddigon found it's way in. The fact that you're not forced to run that specific build when making a stall team is in fact stall being more viable.

    On the second point, aside from the fact that things which a suspect keeps in check are not relevant to whether it's broken or not(unless it's a defensive suspect), FWGE is now a centralizing force in the metagame, Druddigon was before. So what? As I said to Laurel, you now need more than one Pokemon to handle a core that can take multiple forms and is comprised of more than one Pokemon, which to me seems completely reasonable. If FWGE is broken measures will be taken to restore balance, but that has no bearing on whether Druddigon is broken.

    Apparently you disagree on the definition of diversity then. Also, I don't really think diversity plays into suspects, which I feel I made clear in my last post. I was just going along with the arguments being made and countered in the post I quoted. And yes, teambuilding is harder when you can't run a Pokemon that checks a large variety of common threats, but how is that relevant to this or any other suspect, or a hindrance to diversity? I mean you're entitled to your opinion, but that doesn't affect whether Druddigon was overpowered or not.

    And I acknowledged that they were bad checks in my first post, but you didn't clarify. They meet the definition of a check, which is the term you chose to use, not me. Fair point on Galvantula vs Lanturn though, I was mostly thinking of Rotom-C.

    If you want a list of things that check Rotom-C reliably(Galva is significantly harder to check reliably), here's an apprehensive one:

    •Itself
    •Tangrowth(does it as well as Druddigon ever did)
    •Entei
    •Sceptile
    •Magneton
    •Lilligant
    •Clefable
    •Cryogonal
    •Ferroseed
    •Sap Sipper Miltank / Bouffalant / Sawsbuck / Zebstraika

    As for Galvantula, well Druddigon itself didn't really enjoy coming in on it much more than Krookodile considering:

    252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Bug Buzz vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Druddigon: 172-203 (48.58 - 57.34%) -- 39.45% chance to 2HKO (guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock)
     
  22. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    I realize now that I used too much bias for wanting Drudd banned after talking on skype with other people who had different opinions. Drudd gone makes the tier more diverse, but that's because he had a 30% usage. You just took a poke out that was on 30% of every team so of course the tier will change. Drudd's usual set wasn't broken, it was just the CB set (I wish we could complex ban CB from Drudd). Drudd was a cornerstone of LU because of his typing, being the only dragon in LU. He was able to check a majority of the tier and keep the balance. Things like Scep/Entei certainly had other counters, but Drudd was just a good poke. Drudd being gone changed the tier, it could be argued either way to be good or bad, but with so little time left in BW2, I think it's bad. If Drudd were to come back, I think it would be a good thing. Drudd has essentially 0 counters, but he isn't unique in that aspect. Emboar in NU, Victini in UU, Hydreigon in OU, mons counter each of their moves separately, but not all in one which is ok. I think Drudd can come back. It was unanimously agreed and his defensive sets were fine and far from broken, his only controversial set was CB Drudd, having essentially 0 counters (Although Steelix came pretty close). He had mons that could take a hit or 2, but because he was so strong and bulky, not much could ohko after taking a hit. Typically, you were forced to sack the mon that was in, trying to get off as much damage as possible and then allowing you to revenge kill it. But Drudd leaving completely changed the tier, since he was so helpful. He had a typing that let him counter FWG cores by himself as well as electric types, his leaving does allow them to be more effective, but it's not like they were unviable beforehand. I think the testban showed that Drudd did indeed balance the tier since his leaving shifted the tier towards a more offensive metagame (even though it was ALREADY offensive). I think Drudd coming back would do more good than harm.

    Also, as the post above me said, Drudd doesn't really counter Galvantula. 2 LO bug buzzes can ohko standard Drudd, and 2hko CB Drudd as well (Specially bulky Drudd will not be)
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2013
  23. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    I don't see how this has any relevance. Druddigon's usage was never part of the argument for a ban. The fact that the tier changed makes no real difference in the argument for its ban.

    So? There are a lot of Pokemon that had non-broken sets that were banned. Mold Breaker Exca would be great in OU, Defensive Kyurem would cool in UU, etc. If a Pokemon is broken only with one set, it's broken overall. That's how tiering has worked since the idea of non-legendary bans became common place.

    Again, so? All of the Pokemon Druddigon "checked" (Offensive druddi is 2HKO'd by CB Entei anyway) have other checks that were in use before Druddigon became popular. We shouldn't keep something broken in the metagame to check a bunch of non-broken things (nor should we keep broken things to check other broken things).

    Similarly, saying that you think it is "good" if Druddigon returns means nothing if you have no reason to back it up other than "I think it'd be good."

    There are huge differences between those Pokemon and Druddigon. Unlike Emboar, Victini, and Hydreigon, Druddigon has a great typing and bulk for its metagame. Druddigon also only has to use 2-3 moves to OHKO or 2HKO everything in its tier, unlike the ones you mentioned which require between 4 and 6 moves and multiple items to 2HKO everything. No one ever said that Druddigon was broken because it had no counters; it was the fact that it could use one move to OHKO or 2HKO all but 3-4 Pokemon in the tier, and could still hit those few Pokemon with another attack.

    How does the fact that Druddigon is a decent check to a team style (that can be made with more than half of the tier) make it not broken? Giratina would check a lot of things in OU, Cresselia checks a lot of LU Pokemon, does that mean that they should be allowed? No, the logic is completely unsound. We don't leave things in tiers because they check other things. That simply isn't how tiering works.

    The fact that there is a good 4 mon core that about 60% of the tier fits isn't something unique to LU, and it isn't even close to broken here. Nearly every tier has similar cores just because of the fact that Fire / Water / Grass resist almost all of its own weaknesses.

    Also, I completely disagree with the idea that LU has become more Offensive since the ban. I've seen much fewer HO teams and a lot more balanced and semi-stall teams since the ban.
     
  24. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Honestly, I'm actually enjoying the LU metagame for the first time, in a really long time. I know I've been an advocate as a regular player because I love this tier, and honestly Druddigon being gone is a real breath of fresh air. No longer can you just toss Druddigon on a team and expect oh they have a Fire/Water/Grass/Elect type and expect well I just send him out when they use theirs, deal a big hit because I force a switch on 90% of those types, and switch back out for later. It works the same for me too, in I can't use that strategy and I'm perfectly happy with it.

    I know I was on the fence and thought that potential FWGE cores would spring up and dominate things, but that's not the entire case. I've been running a team with lanturn as my only W/E typing and a lack of grass/fire (bar a zoroark flamethrower which is surprisingly lack luster), and it's done well for itself, but mostly that the rest of my team handles those kinds of cores pretty well (and no it isn't dedicated to counter them), and they aren't as overwhelmingly dominate as I thought they'd be. They are good, but not 100% dominate more about 80% when played right. You really do have to think a lot ahead and know what you have to save for each specific thing as you are going to be killing each other's teams off in what could be close games in this metagame and not waste turns when you previously had a check to help keep things living/minimizing damage.

    I disagree about the HO teams devo, as I see just as many of those as they aren't really dying off, but it really leaves room for a more balanced experimentation. This druddigon ban probably has made me my happiest to be an LU player since mid-summer/early autumn last year. That's a full year that I've endured a lot of the BS we've had, and I looked at playing this tier still with hope and brash arrogance :P overcoming every stupid little thing we got that was annoying, (Cress, Durant re-introduction, Moltres re-introduction, Nidoqueen, Tornadus, Meloetta) and it's just another time for me to try new things. I don't care if it's banned or stays, but just going to say this has been my favorite time to play LU in almost over a year.
     
  25. Aquadude

    Aquadude Member

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    PO Trainer Name:
    pokemon trainer Adam
    Being an avid druddigon user in 5th gen I was surprised something so defensively amazing was able to be used in LU My Druddigon is one of the big reasons why I was good at LU when I was playing it daily. however the best way to deal with my and most Druddigons are indirect physical. In all honesty I am neither for or against it. sure i've been using it for 2 years but do I care if i lose the premier physical wall of the tier? The answer to that is no. A wall that damages direct physical attacker when they attack that can hit that hard I say If it has become that prevalent then maybe. I will add this bit of info. The awkward thing about Druddigon is it counters itself. Bear that in mind when making a decision
     
  26. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    Druddigon is banned by a 3-0 decision. The leader paras will be posted soon.
     
  27. Tyki

    Tyki Change

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    PO Trainer Name:
    Tyki
    My Paragraph:

    Druddigon unfortunately has the curse of having many good, viable sets, though one set that is simply too strong. Choice Banded Druddigon simply deals too much damage with too little counters and takes too much damage. Having one pokemon be able to power through a team with one move while resisting the FWG all by itself makes Druddigon do way more than is healthy for the metagame. Are the support and LO sets broken? No, they are just really good and I understand that, though as we see with other suspects, one set can break a pokemon. What doesn't help this is the fact that Druddigon CAN run a multitude of sets, giving sheer unpredictability to it if put on a well made team. What could be a Banded Druddigon could actually be a bluffed set with Flamethrower that now has taken a huge chunk out of your Steel Type or Tangrowth with Sheer Force.

    When the best response to a poke itself, there is usually a problem. With Druddigon being the only common Dragon type, and there being very little Ice type, it's very hard to 2HKO it on a switch, and also hard to revenge it compared to other tanks. Yes, it is not risk free. Being locked into a move which will then confuse you is a pretty harsh drawback, though it would be worse if the coverage of said move wasn't only taken by Steel Types. Unlike other wall breakers in the tier, Druddigon does not rely on an inaccurate move to wall break. If we are still comparing Druddigon to other wall breakers in LU, we must consider that Druddigon both has a much better defensive typing than the others, and simply is more bulky. It may be slow, though that gives the user an incentive to use Trick Room as well (which more people should use >.>).

    I understand that not everyone will be happy with this decision, and I don't expect you to all be. From what I have learned from Moltres, I will get hate for not following the status quo. We have seen that in the current LU tier, Druddigon leaving has not made the tier unhealthy (no, I do not care about whether or not Devo can play his stall or not). If anyone wants to compare the numbers of the people in the thread who voted each thing, keep in mind that I did go back and reread all posts again. I took in consideration everything said about saying no ban, though I found very little evidence for people to say that CB Drudd was not broken. One thing in particular I saw suggested that you must trade off Druddigon in most situations. This implies a guaranteed kill for Druddigon, which is not healthy. Sorry if any of you are mad with this decision, I looked at my response from the doc and understand that you want more of a public decision. However, many of the people who play LU don't post on the forums, and I can't control that. We only have a small selection of the LU player base, so it is my job to make a judgment for the community. I may make wrong judgments, as we all do, though I am feeling pretty good about this one. If we do end up being wrong, we can always retest or suspect other pokes. Just give it a chance guys.

    tl;dr Read the whole thing you lazy fuck.
    [/HIDE]
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2013
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