1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Guest, PO has ceased our separate tiering and adopted Smogon tiers for SM. More information and updates here.

    Dismiss Notice

Default

Discussion in 'Active Themes' started by Fuzzysqurl, Sep 19, 2013.

  1. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,176
    Likes Received:
    635
    PO Trainer Name:
    RiceKirby
    BG immune to watch would beat most of the point of having a watcher.

    Surviving a lynch is a bit too strong for small games. Maybe a better idea would be to make WW a bulletproof so they are not taken down to crossfire so easily. To prevent Werewolf being found by Mafia so easily, the evasion message could instead say they were protected.
     
  2. Fiery Espeon

    Fiery Espeon The fire never bothered me anyway ~

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2013
    Messages:
    540
    Likes Received:
    129
    PO Trainer Name:
    Fiery Espeon
    I prefer Idea C as it is both a simple and a balanced Default. A teammate for Godfather may be a Mayor, to get new players to understand the Mafia Mayor or "Kuja" concept. I think Bulletproof will actually confuse a lot of players. I think a better addition to WereWolf would be to add a one time poison charge. I think a poison lasting for two days is a boost enough. Especially for small games.
     
  3. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,176
    Likes Received:
    635
    PO Trainer Name:
    RiceKirby
    No Kuja will be added. A simple evil mayor (2 votes) is possible though.

    Poison is not going to be added.
     
  4. Shazan

    Shazan Obey to Kyubey

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2013
    Messages:
    591
    Likes Received:
    14
    PO Trainer Name:
    Obey to Kyubey
    Hmmm, I am unsure how much far you wanna be strict about unusual abilities but maybe some of them could help you reach your achievement.
    1) You want "A theme that encourages communication, teamwork and other player skills" and not "A theme where only 1 role matters and everyone only follows around.". Maybe you can add a village role able to Identify any player that uses a not mortal action on him.
    2) From what i understand the inspectors of this version inspects sides instead then roles, so If watch is a No ability, maybe the 2 bosses instead to have different active abilities: they could have different passive abilities. With one immune to distract and the other a bad miller which inspects as sided with village.
    3) The main problem for the Godfather with big games is the team survival because they are the smallest team. So maybe a good companion could be a Protector or a Safeguarder, depending if it would be better to be safe from night-kills or distraction. The only problem is that if Godfather dies he has nearly no way to win.
     
  5. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,176
    Likes Received:
    635
    PO Trainer Name:
    RiceKirby
    Possibly yes, but poison/piercing kills is not one of them.

    The idea is to achieve that by making it harder for Inspector to claim freely, which would force them to find a voice. Also, by making it harder for a PR to get confirmed clean, players will have to deduce who they should trust.
    Finding a way to encourage fake-claims is another thing that I would like to try.

    No, Side Inspector is just an idea for now. The inspector only see all mafia roles (Boss/Spy) as a Goon, the rest of the roles are being inspected normally.
    Watch is not out of question, but we may need to find a way to make it effective at finding BG without making that chance 99% (as it would be if it was a simply watch).
    Baddies inspected as village is something I want to avoid, since the idea is balance the use of Voicing tactics and Follow the Cop.

    I don't see much point into having a teammate with Safeguard, as the idea is to have GF already immune to distract by default.

    Most people seem to think that GF needs to survive more, so I guess a protection ability is a given. As for when GF dies, the logical possibilities to give a chance to their partner be:
    1) Extra Votes
    2) Having a kill (separated or shared)
    3) onDeath to give them a buff

    A crazy idea I had now would be to split GF's /kill command into two, and then make one of them being the fastest kill, while the other would be the slowest and shared with that partner. Not sure if a good idea, but it's something.
     
  6. Roild

    Roild Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2012
    Messages:
    861
    Likes Received:
    11
    PO Trainer Name:
    Roild
    The changes wouldn't actually make default more popular, just slightly change it in a way where there are other things. w/e, idea C is best. B is annoying if a goon will always get information. Not necessary for smaller games. Mafia spy (diff name imo) with additional pseudo-information things are good. Although I agree with Wind that watch shouldn't be one. Both stalking suffices. Although the roles list needs to account should kind of baby mafia by giving them powers when the village gets numbers. Like spy + goon, then goon + don, then spy + don -> then all together finally with more goons.

    Two werewolves in larger numbers is fine if they each get their own kill (and the anti-PL). Godfather solo is supposed to be really good. I personally don't see it, but it isn't a role that's supposed to win? Idk. It has a very good /potential/ win rate. IMO, just buff it. Like 1-shot NK evade. and +votes. Or voteshield. It is a solo role and a couple small buffs would make it pretty interesting while still default stuff.

    Tips is weird. Just direct to how to play mafia maybe. Tbh, telling people about how to scumtell would be too tough or kind of redundant at the same time somehow.
     
  7. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,176
    Likes Received:
    635
    PO Trainer Name:
    RiceKirby
    Priority is making it a better theme. Popularity will (hopefully) come once that's settled.

    I too have been liking the setup C more. Probably it will easier to control power distribution with that, and only a few players will have more than 1 action. Besides, the idea on setup B is to have the stalk/watch being 1-shot and shared between Goons, but looking at Elements I'm not sure if that's a good idea, as there's always that person wasting it N1 and the rest of the team can't do anything once that's used.

    how2grammar? Jokes aside, I didn't understand exactly what you meant here due to the weird wording.
    But if the concern is spawn, it will probably be Goon + Goon at first, then add a Boss, then replace 2nd Goon by Spy at larger games (22+), then keep adding Goons. BTW, I'm thinking about replacing a Goon instead of simply adding Spy because otherwise the Spy will come far too late.

    Remember that one of the goals is to reduce crossfire. Less bad sides also mean the baddies have, in a way, more information.

    Making Godfather stronger while still solo is also a good alternative, so more ideas on this are welcome. The only concern is that GF is intended to spawn at around 22p, so their power must be compatible with this game size, but in an eventual 35p they will probably have some difficult if they are still solo.
     
  8. Roild

    Roild Member

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2012
    Messages:
    861
    Likes Received:
    11
    PO Trainer Name:
    Roild
    Oops.
    "Although the roles list needs to account should kind of baby mafia by giving them powers when the village gets numbers. Like spy + goon, then goon + don, then spy + don -> then all together finally with more goons. " - me

    I mean to say that the roles lists should increase mafia power accordingly. And in a way so that the spy appears in decently sized games. Which is why I mean goon + spy instead of goon + don during 12-15 or so and then changing to don later on. I think you understand the pros to this.

    Reducing kills is good. I only meant Werewolf in games of 30+ or so where there are too many people and some milling is needed. Maybe just add a temporary kill to mafia? Or basic numbers increase so more of them can die and the side can still survive for a little bit. I prefer the latter though.

    One of GF's abilities should be that it avoids the kills of other Mafia groups, which is why x-shot is nice. +votes gives it power against village if village lets it steamroll.

    As for that person wasting the spy's ability n1, 2x shot should be fine. And maybe a second spy or something other informative role (if not more) in larger games. In larger games, I would not mind spy becoming a permanent stalker. Hell, 3x all the time seems fine to me. 3 nights of stalking is more than enough time to find some info (or none, but the x-shot wouldn't matter if that's the case).
     
  9. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,176
    Likes Received:
    635
    PO Trainer Name:
    RiceKirby
    I made the 2nd draft. Here it is:

    VILLAGE
    -Villager
    -Inspector: Can find a player's role; Mafia Boss/Tracker are inspected as normal FCM/IM.
    -Pretty Lady: Can distract every night. If a Mafia is distracted, that person is immune to PL for the next turn.
    -Bodyguard
    -Vigilante
    -Neighbour: Can reveal itself to another player during the night
    -Mayor: 2 votes
    -Miller: Inspected as Mafia (small games) or FCM/IM (medium-large games). Millers will always appear as Miller on Current Roles list or when killed/lynched.
    -Deputy: Can verify if someone used an action during the night.

    MAFIA
    -Mafia Goon: Shared Nightkill

    WEREWOLF
    -Werewolf: Nightkill. Kill distractors. Evades 1 nightkill.

    GODFATHER
    -Godfather: 2 Nightkills. Can Inspect. Immune to distraction. Evades 1 nightkill.

    ITALIAN MAFIA (shared nightkill, team-reveal)
    -Italian Mafia: Normal mafia
    -Italian Boss: Immune to distraction, can distract once per game
    -Italian Tracker: Can stalk twice per game

    FRENCH CANADIAN MAFIA (shared nightkill, team-reveal)
    -French Canadian Mafia: Normal mafia
    -French Canadian Boss: Immune to distraction, can distract once per game
    -French Canadian Tracker: Can stalk twice per game

    Notes about roles:
    -IM will have faster kills, FCM will have more members
    -Charges for Mafia Boss' distract could increase to 2 on large (22+ players) games
    -Charges for Mafia Tracker' stalk could increase to 3 on large (25+ players) games
    -Deputy will probably be used only on large games (22+ players)
    -Godfather is mostly a stronger Werewolf (reminder that Werewolf will likely not spawn on large games). For now, I'd rather try the Solo Role path and leave an eventual teammate for another time.
    -For Mafia names, I'm thinking about changing Don to Boss (Don Italian Mafia -> Italian Boss) so it gets grouped with the rest of the mafia on Current Roles list and on /roles.
    -I decided to go with the Tracker setup for IM/FCM so not many players will have 2 commands (which can be confusing for new players) and to make it easier to control when mafia gain more power.

    Priority (draft):
    Mafia Bosses (Distract)
    Pretty Lady (Distract)
    Bodyguard (Protect)
    Werewolf (Kill)
    Italian Mafia (Kill)
    French Canadian Mafia(Kill)
    Godfather (Kill)
    Vigilante (Kill)
    Godfather (Inspect)
    Inspector (Inspect)
    Neighbour (Greet)
    Deputy/Mafia Trackers (Stalk)

    Notes:
    -Since both Mafia Bosses ignore distraction, their priority for /distract makes no difference as one cannot prevent the other from using it anyway.
    -Deputy and Mafia Trackers will be able to see each other's actions (AKA priority between them will not be a problem).
    -Yes, Vigilante slower than Godfather.

    Spawn ratios is the same as mentioned before. As a reference:
    04p - 3:1 (Village:Mafia)
    07p - 5:2 (Village:Mafia)

    09p - 6:2:1 (Village:Mafia:Werewolf)
    12p - 8:3:1 (Village:Mafia:Werewolf)

    13p - 9:2:2 (Village:FCM:IM)
    15p - 11:2:2 (Village:FCM:IM)
    20p - 14:3:3 (Village:FCM:IM)

    22p - 15:3:3:1 (Village:FCM:IM:Godfather)
    25p - 17:4:3:1 (Village:FCM:IM:Godfather)
    30p - 20:5:4:1 (Village:FCM:IM:Godfather)
    35p - 23:6:5:1 (Village:FCM:IM:Godfather)
    40p - 26:7:6:1 (Village:FCM:IM:Godfather)
    Tell me what you think, what you agree or disagree with and suggestions for names for roles or commands that you think it would work better.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2014
  10. Fuzzysqurl

    Fuzzysqurl baa baa mareep I do what I want Server Owner Developer I do what I want Server Owner Developer

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2012
    Messages:
    2,096
    Likes Received:
    967
    That means the only VCLR role is Mayor now? There's no way for a Vigi to allow the village to win without the help of a BG, PL, or the Mayor.
     
  11. Windblown

    Windblown sable knight

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2012
    Messages:
    841
    Likes Received:
    169
    Personally I like the idea of GF being immune to all kills but this working idea is fine

    Vigilante v GF would be fine if my above change was done but this is still okay, anything to buff up solo roles
     
  12. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,176
    Likes Received:
    635
    PO Trainer Name:
    RiceKirby
    Yes. The only difference now is that Godfather won't succumb to a 1 vs 1 against Vigilante.
     
  13. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,176
    Likes Received:
    635
    PO Trainer Name:
    RiceKirby
    Since there was not much discussion going on here, I decided to code the theme as proposed on my last draft. Code is here: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10065307/Mafia/NewDefault.js
    The only differences from the last draft is that Mafia Bosses get a 2nd distract on 24+ players, Mafia Trackers get a 3rd stalk on 27+ and Godfather gets 2 evadeCharges at 31+ players.

    I also wrote some tips about basic tactics that I would like to see encouraged, but they ended a bit too long, so suggestions to make them shorter are appreciated.
    Oh, and I found that summary for Default that was added to the theme for a few days then lost after an update (or at least I think I found it), so I added it as the summary for this version.

    Lastly, I named it Default2 because 1) It's meant to be only a test at first and 2) To make it easier to notice it's a different version.
     
  14. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2010
    Messages:
    972
    Likes Received:
    524
    PO Trainer Name:
    Miki Sayaka
    Giving Default2 a test period along with other Review themes.
     
  15. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2010
    Messages:
    972
    Likes Received:
    524
    PO Trainer Name:
    Miki Sayaka
    Since I've been planning to RIP Default and replace it with the current Default2, I want to go over the theme and make sure it can work as an introductory level, but still engaging, tutorial mode.

    Mechanical errors first:

    Is there a reason for this? Seems like it could cause problems.

    Looks like the factional Stalks are fine due to using converts.

    15-17p spawn has French Canadian Boss, but no Italian Boss. Intentional? Fixable?

    The /roles :french canadian tr

    I'm guessing that's supposed to be the same as Italian Tracker's message.

    Onto stuff about the actual theme:

    I like that it focuses on the dynamic of the Inspector looking for Millers in a way that is true to the original but attracts more play strategy. Default is important for introducing a lot of core concepts, such as fake-claiming, meatshielding, knowing who the safe-claim is, and what each role is expected to do for the most part. I want Default2 to be the same, but with more (as much as possible without being convoluted).

    The small game setup is kind of silly - 1 inspector with 2 millers and 2 villagers against mafia doesn't use the basic mechanics very much because a) there's more reward to inspecting a villager than to inspecting a mafia suspect and b) the inspector isn't safe to claim anyway. There isn't much you can do with such basic power roles of course, however, I think the best fix would be to use some sort of Mole instead of a Miller. Werewolf would be ideal for this, and WW is more fitting as a solo role anyways.

    A 5-6p setup with Deputy/Pretty Lady/Werewolf/Villager/Villager[/Villager] could be interesting if Werewolf is made to ignore stalk. Deputy would have to see the target of the action it stalks for it to work, however; Deputy's job would be to find the PL, while the PL can clean people by not getting killed after going on them. Deputy would have a chance to see the PL's target if she suicides on the WW. This could end easily if everyone uses their actions right and the Werewolf fails to frame by killing the PL, but that's okay - it's default. It would also be helpful for new players by introducing the idea that dying is not the worst thing to happen, if your death leads to your team winning.

    I would also like to see WW here because:
    (23:44:25) ±Players: 9-12 Players

    Poor woofy almost never spawns currently :(

    7p should introduce the Inspector vs Imperfect Information game, with the Bodyguard allowing Inspector to claim. Switching the Miller for Villager and Mafia for Mole doesn't seem like a terrible idea though. Mainly, it would address the issues in the paragraph 2 up from this one - inspecting suspects means you have a chance to find a confirmed mafia, while successfully finding and killing PRs (mainly the Bodyguard) will give Mole a strong chance of winning. Then again, it may be better to keep the Miller based setup for small games, and introduce Italian/French Canadian Moles in 13p (removing Millers as necessary).

    For 8-12p, I feel like the balance gets more and more skewed with each role added, and 7v3v1 looks really ugly overall. The PL has restrictions, but will still wall an entire team of 3 with like 60% accuracy once PRs connect. I would honestly rather see Neighbor and Mayor here - although that would lose the mechanic of PL going on WW, which would be covered in 5-6p. Actually, why isn't WW in 12p+? Or at least 13+? With the nightkill evade and PL counter, WW wouldn't suffer too badly as a solo role, and it would make the PL less overpowering.

    Well, regardless of whether WW takes the Marx/Kefka slot, Neighbour over Mayor and Mayor over PL would be better for spawn imo. The Mayor doesn't add much to 8p, while Neighbor can put claim pressure on suspects, which is something default should introduce. The Mayor co-spawning with the third mafia would be ideal if possible, since VCLR with a bodyguard would have a chance to turn around a bad night 1.

    Onto medium games:

    The basic setup looks good. The 4 PRs work well together, but not too well to auto-win. FCM and IM should both get a Mole, while removing Millers for their side. Werewolf should spawn.

    I don't like that the FCM and IM can Distract - it ruins the safety of the Inspector claim, which is fundamentally for Default as a learning theme. If the idea is to make fishing for the Bodyguard or Pretty Lady viable, maybe you could simply make the Inspector ignore Distract?

    The /roles are a little bit unclear and the code is also confusing, so can you explain the mechanics of PLing mafia factions? Can the basic Italian and FCM not be distracted consecutive nights? Why does the boss even evade if they already have this protection?

    Here's the part that's confusing:

    As opposed to

    Probably just an info fail, but this mechanic probably does need work since the PL needs some sort of counter, but ideally, not one that keeps new players from understanding the basics of PL Stalling.

    The Godfather is a pretty strong force (again, what does the PL even do in larger games? she has been tingle'd r.i.p.) - I think it's fine that he's not a mole since he has the 1x nightkill evade. Maybe the nightkill evade should inform the attacker that it was an evade, not a protection; usually I'd say 'less concrete info is better' but in this case I'm worried about it being obvious anyway and only causing confusion (since there's only 1 BG in the game which will go on claimed Inspector). I guess the BG might have gone on the Mayor!

    Anyway, the larger spawn looks fine. I think Deputy could spawn earlier, with the full Stalk command which shows target, given the counter-balance that Mafia Bosses and Godfather ignore Stalk.

    tl;os version is:

    1. Deputy to have full Stalk action.
    2. Werewolf to ignore Stalk.
    3. New 5-6 setup using Deputy/PL/Werewolf.
    4. Neighbor>Mayor in 8p. Mayor>PL in 10p.
    5. Millers are good for 7-12, but add FCM/IM Mole at 12p.
    6. Werewolf spawn at 13+.
    7. FCM/IM Boss should be powerful, but being able to distract the "safe claim" would defeat the purpose of Default.

    Once these concerns are fixed and/or decidedly not necessary, I'll go over it with the other LQC before updating to true default.
     
  16. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,176
    Likes Received:
    635
    PO Trainer Name:
    RiceKirby
    There's no error there. Both Mafia Bosses ignore distract, which means it makes no difference if they distract each other, which is the only situation where priority could be an issue.

    IM has better priority, so FCM spawns their roles earlier. This is the case for the bosses too.

    What's the point of having an Inspector in a setup with only 1 Mafia that's also a Mole?
    Sure, this setup can be improved, but the idea here is to encourage communication.

    Although using Deputy is a cool idea, I think keeping Inspector for small games should be a priority since it's a more common role in themes.

    One of the concepts for this new version of Default is to encourage Voicing over Follow the Cop tactics. For this to work, Moles are a complete no-no.
    Even without that concept, Moles are a lot harder to grasp for new players than Millers.

    Because WW is a role designed for small games, all atempts of putting it on large games never worked. Also, the theme aims to reduce crossfire, which requires less sides spawning.
    On larger games, GF is the replacement for WW, since at some point more kills are necessary to not make games too slow, but even in these cases the idea is to replace, not to add more sides.

    Re-arranging those secondary PRs can be done.

    Both points already mentioned before. Moles are too confusing, WW generates unnecessary crossfire and Mafia with distract is to encourage Voicing and reduce the "Hunt the BG" games that always give Mafia intense headaches.

    Yes, that's an error with the info only.
    As for the PL, if they distract Mafia Goon or Tracker once, that same player will be immune to it for the next night. Teammates still can be distracted meanwhile, and after that 1-night immunity they are back to being distractable.
    And it's not that "Boss evade even with the 1-turn PL immunity", it's that their immunity is a full-fledged one.

    PL is a heck of a strong role in the current Default. This version was designed to not allow roles like BG and PL to be so overwhelming for mafia to deal with.
    With GF being a solo role, I'm not sure about giving that information to other Mafia, but you do have a point in that it will rarely work in their favour since there's only one BG around. I don't know, need more discussion about this. (random thought: Would anyone ever try to fake-claim Inspector as GF by relying on that?)

    Inspector + Full Stalker in same game is kind of a nightmare to mafia. Deputy is meant to be a secondary information role (replacing Spy), not a central PR.

    Actually, Default already lost much of its purpose a long time ago. Lots of themes like Kirby and Zelda introduce the whole Follow the Cop format a lot better than Default, so the idea is to make Default focus on the actual basics of mafia (communication, scum reading, etc) over centralized PRs.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2015
  17. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2010
    Messages:
    972
    Likes Received:
    524
    PO Trainer Name:
    Miki Sayaka
    If that is the case, then the theme of Voicing should be present in as much of the spawn as possible. I would rather avoid complicated things like "Inspector claims, as long as the BG is in, unless there is a Mafia Boss, but only on Tuesday", as the concept of safe claims is difficult enough to grasp in general (but especially when there is so much variance). Voicing and PM communication are also important concepts, so I have no problem with making it work that way, as long as it is consistent.

    Whoops.

    The advantage of this is huge. Having priority doesn't always help against other factions (especially in 2v1v1 situations), and being able to PL the other team makes any advantage kill priority has irrelevant. Balance shouldn't be a huge focus of this theme, but it would be nice if IM had some way to win against FCM in medium games.

    I didn't say Inspector for a reason - the idea was Deputy / WW immune to stalk. It would be somewhat silly because the Deputy's job is obsolete if the PL dies, but at least it would introduce the idea of "clean does not always mean clean".

    How is 1 Inspector with a bunch of Millers going to encourage communication? If by a 24% chance the Inspector finds a Villager (not Miller) and neither of them are killed by the Mafia that night, then he can clean that person via PM... then what? Finding another villager is even more unlikely, and finding a mafia result is inconclusive. The setup more or less depends on whether the Mafia can avoid killing the Millers they need to hide among. Voicing and communication don't play a role here.

    The PL/Werewolf scenario works much better for communication and voicing, because she can clean anyone by not dying on them, while the concept of "millers" isn't gone, because the PL might die Distracting a Villager if the WW happens to find her that night. In any case, after the PL dies after going on a suspect, whomever she had previously cleaned in PM will have to Voice whom she was on. It's better for this purpose because it isn't nearly impossible to clean anyone, and it introduces the mechanics of the Werewolf (in addition to the other reasons I said in the other post).

    Well, it would have been merely to enhance the PL/WW game. This setup falls into the category on "non-peak" so introducing minor PRs isn't necessarily bad. Perhaps a better (simpler) idea is to make the setup PL/Neighbor/Werewolf/Villager/Villager[/Villager].
    Until the Godfather spawns at 20+, there will be only 2 kills per night. That's fairly slow, and there are also quite a few ways for reduced kills, even with the restrictions, due to having 3 PLs flying around. WW isn't really that necessary, but some other adjustments could be made.

    So the game completely changes at 15p? Why not just put both IM and FCM bosses in at 12p (not like they'll be too strong in a 8v2v2) and make Werewolf pierce in 7-11? If the idea is to make voicing the focus of the theme, Inspector, Neighbor, and Pretty Lady are the best options for this. Unconnected, they aren't that strong; and you could probably remove the immunity to consecutive PLs for IM and FCM since they have a boss which can counter the PL; and both would have ways of "cleaning" villagers and getting them to voice, with a chance of cleaning each other and connecting.

    FCM/IM boss at all numbers would make claiming unviable and they would both lose their overwhelmingness. IMO remove the consecutive PL immunity because it makes voicing/connecting harder for a PL who isn't connected to every other PR on startup.

    Since Inspector is unable to claim, probably not. Otherwise it's fine that it appears as "protected" because there is no safe claim and the Bodyguard is probably randing anyway. Then again it just makes the Mafia want to try killing that player again once the Bodyguard dies, thinking it's a PR, only to find they lose their kill support.

    Unconnected, maybe not - but still, keeping it to visit/no visit is probably better since it cleans villagers but not PRs, making Voicing through villagers even more of a theme.

    If that is the case, then there absolutely cannot be a safe claim at any point. I was thinking that Zelda is the tutorial for safe claiming anyway, and Default going with voicing / PM connection is probably best. But there certainly has to be something done about 7-14p, since Inspector being able to claim here will damage the purpose of this theme.
     
  18. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,176
    Likes Received:
    635
    PO Trainer Name:
    RiceKirby
    pls, the /tips says it's on Friday, not Tuesday.
    I believe when you say you want to avoid those complicated situations, you mean at spawn time, since it's not really possible to make it last the whole game. In that case, it's a fair suggestion.


    Noted.

    I'd like to have Inspector at least at 7p+, so since you are suggesting 4~6, the PL/WW/Neighbour setup may work (I was under the impression your suggestion was aimed at 7~8p too).

    Those 3 PLs have quite a few restrictions, so they won't reduce the kills that much. In any case, either spawning GF (or even Vigi) 2~3 slots earlier could be made.

    I guess spawning bosses earlier is not a problem. I expected they would be too much on those sizes, but who knows, could as well try it.

    Even with Bosses around PL would still be quite strong without that temporary immunity, since the best they can do is to prevent stall for 1 turn if they know PL. PL still can clean villagers and get them to voice them normally, possibly requiring just a bit more of reading skills to be sure they can connect to that or not.

    I wonder if that would encourage BG to not always stick to Inspector so they try to troll mafia by protecting a different person. Then again, not a priority, if you feel the evasion looking like a protection is not really necessary I could change that.
     
  19. IceKirby

    IceKirby A.K.A. RiceKirby

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2011
    Messages:
    2,176
    Likes Received:
    635
    PO Trainer Name:
    RiceKirby
    I made a few changes to spawn based on the discussion above. Here's the list:
    List 1 (4~6 players):
    1. Werewolf (werewolf)
    2. Villager (villager)
    3. Pretty Lady (hooker)
    4. Neighbour (neighbour)
    5. Villager (villager)
    6. Villager (villager)

    List 2 (7~12 players):
    1. Villager (villager)
    2. Miller (miller_mafia)
    3. Inspector (inspector)
    4. Mafia (mafia)
    5. Neighbour (neighbour)
    6. Bodyguard (bodyguard)
    7. Mafia Boss (mafia_boss)
    8. Villager (villager)
    9. Werewolf (werewolf)
    10. Pretty Lady (hooker)
    11. Villager (villager)
    12. Mafia (mafia)

    List 3 (13~18 players):
    1. Italian Mafia (italian_mafia)
    2. Italian Boss (italian_boss)
    3. French Canadian Mafia (french_mafia)
    4. French Canadian Boss (french_boss)
    5. Villager (villager)
    6. Villager (villager)
    7. Villager (villager)
    8. Miller (miller_italian)
    9. Miller (miller_french)
    10. Neighbour (neighbour)
    11. Inspector (inspector)
    12. Bodyguard (bodyguard)
    13. Pretty Lady (hooker)
    14. Villager (villager)
    15. French Canadian Mafia (french_mafia)
    16. Villager (villager)
    17. Mayor (mayor)
    18. Italian Mafia (italian_mafia)

    List 4 (19~21 players):
    1. Italian Boss (italian_boss)
    2. Italian Tracker (italian_tracker)
    3. Italian Mafia (italian_mafia)
    4. French Canadian Boss (french_boss)
    5. French Canadian Tracker (french_tracker)
    6. French Canadian Mafia (french_mafia)
    7. Villager (villager)
    8. Villager (villager)
    9. Villager (villager)
    10. Villager (villager)
    11. Miller (miller_italian)
    12. Miller (miller_french)
    13. Inspector (inspector)
    14. Bodyguard (bodyguard)
    15. Pretty Lady (hooker)
    16. Mayor (mayor)
    17. Neighbour (neighbour)
    18. Deputy (deputy)
    19. Godfather (godfather)
    20. Villager (villager)
    21. Villager (villager)

    List 5 (22~24 players):
    1. Italian Tracker (italian_tracker)
    2. Italian Mafia (italian_mafia)
    3. Italian Boss (italian_boss_plus)
    4. French Canadian Boss (french_boss_plus)
    5. French Canadian Tracker (french_tracker)
    6. French Canadian Mafia (french_mafia)
    7. Villager (villager)
    8. Villager (villager)
    9. Villager (villager)
    10. Villager (villager)
    11. Villager (villager)
    12. Villager (villager)
    13. Villager (villager)
    14. Miller (miller_italian)
    15. Miller (miller_french)
    16. Inspector (inspector)
    17. Bodyguard (bodyguard)
    18. Pretty Lady (hooker)
    19. Mayor (mayor)
    20. Neighbour (neighbour)
    21. Godfather (godfather)
    22. Deputy (deputy)
    23. Villager (villager)
    24. French Canadian Mafia (french_mafia)

    List 6 (25~27 players):
    1. Italian Tracker (italian_tracker_plus)
    2. Italian Mafia (italian_mafia)
    3. Italian Boss (italian_boss_plus)
    4. French Canadian Boss (french_boss_plus)
    5. French Canadian Tracker (french_tracker_plus)
    6. French Canadian Mafia (french_mafia)
    7. Villager (villager)
    8. Villager (villager)
    9. Villager (villager)
    10. Villager (villager)
    11. Villager (villager)
    12. Villager (villager)
    13. Villager (villager)
    14. Miller (miller_italian)
    15. Miller (miller_french)
    16. Inspector (inspector)
    17. Bodyguard (bodyguard)
    18. Pretty Lady (hooker)
    19. Mayor (mayor)
    20. Neighbour (neighbour)
    21. Godfather (godfather)
    22. Deputy (deputy)
    23. Villager (villager)
    24. French Canadian Mafia (french_mafia)
    25. Vigilante (vigilante)
    26. Italian Mafia (italian_mafia)
    27. Neighbour (neighbour)

    List 7 (28~40 players):
    1. Italian Mafia (italian_mafia)
    2. Italian Tracker (italian_tracker_plus)
    3. French Canadian Mafia (french_mafia)
    4. French Canadian Tracker (french_tracker_plus)
    5. Villager (villager)
    6. Villager (villager)
    7. Villager (villager)
    8. Miller (miller_italian)
    9. Miller (miller_french)
    10. Mayor (mayor)
    11. Inspector (inspector)
    12. Bodyguard (bodyguard)
    13. Pretty Lady (hooker)
    14. Villager (villager)
    15. French Canadian Boss (french_boss_plus)
    16. Villager (villager)
    17. Neighbour (neighbour)
    18. Italian Boss (italian_boss_plus)
    19. Villager (villager)
    20. Villager (villager)
    21. Godfather (godfather_plus)
    22. Vigilante (vigilante)
    23. Villager (villager)
    24. French Canadian Mafia (french_mafia)
    25. Deputy (deputy)
    26. Italian Mafia (italian_mafia)
    27. Neighbour (neighbour)
    28. French Canadian Mafia (french_mafia)
    29. Bodyguard (bodyguard)
    30. Villager (villager)
    31. Miller (miller_french)
    32. Italian Mafia (italian_mafia)
    33. Miller (miller_italian)
    34. French Canadian Mafia (french_mafia)
    35. Pretty Lady (hooker)
    36. Villager (villager)
    37. French Canadian Mafia (french_mafia)
    38. Vigilante (vigilante)
    39. Italian Mafia (italian_mafia)
    40. Deputy (deputy)

    A few notes I took while making those changes:
    4~6p:
    Used the PL/Neighbour/WW/Villager/Villager/Villager setup suggested by Miki.

    7~12p:
    Mafia Boss created (can distract and stuff, same as Italian/French Bosses. WW doesn't kill Mafia Boss if distracted, just ignore it)
    Mayor replaced by Neighbour.
    Should I keep Miller on 7p or swap it with the Villager that spawn at 8p or 11p to make voicing easier?

    13p~18p:
    Bosses spawn earlier (AKA always that this list is used)
    Swapped Mayor and Neighbour spawns
    Should I make 2nd FCM and 2nd IM spawn 1 slot earlier each and add Deputy at 18~19?

    19p+:
    Didn't focus too much here, but I made GF spawn earlier and Deputy spawn before Vigilante.

    Overall, the focus was to highlight roles that need to work together with others (so Deputy and Neighbour appear more), and to keep the whole "Voicing over Follow the Cop" concept consistent through all game sizes.
     
  20. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2010
    Messages:
    972
    Likes Received:
    524
    PO Trainer Name:
    Miki Sayaka
    I think villager>miller at 7p is better for the reason you said. Not having a miller won't hurt the mafia too much, since the Inspector is having to clean more roles than in regular Default, and there is also a Mafia PL to punish if the Inspector claims to vote off the partner.

    I really do not think the Mafia really needs to have the consecutive PL restriction, but I suppose it needs testing. The main possible problem is that a lone Basic Mafia has so much trouble in a situation where they lose their teammate the Werewolf is already out with the PL in. But this is also the case in several themes, and if Default is a tutorial, it should probably give a realistic rendition of how much PL stall sux. Or something like that. Since there is a Mafia role which counters the PL, I don't think she'd be OP without the consecutive immunity, especially since it isn't normally safe to claim, so the Basic Mafia can counterclaim or "blind counterclaim".

    How about, FCM at 15, villager at 16, and then at 17 make a new list which replaces two Villagers with Mayor and Deputy and add the Italian?
    List 3(13~16 players):
    1. █ Italian Mafia (italian_mafia)
    2. █ Italian Boss (italian_boss)
    3. █ French Canadian Mafia (french_mafia)
    4. █ French Canadian Boss (french_boss)
    5. █ Villager (villager)
    6. █ Villager (villager)
    7. █ Villager (villager)
    8. █ Miller (miller_italian)
    9. █ Miller (miller_french)
    10. █ Neighbour (neighbour)
    11. █ Inspector (inspector)
    12. █ Bodyguard (bodyguard)
    13. █ Pretty Lady (hooker)
    14. █ Villager (villager)
    15. █ French Canadian Mafia (french_mafia)
    16. █ Villager (villager)
    List 4(17~18 players):
    1. █ Italian Mafia (italian_mafia)
    2. █ Italian Boss (italian_boss)
    3. █ French Canadian Mafia (french_mafia)
    4. █ French Canadian Boss (french_boss)
    5. █ Villager (villager)
    6. █ Villager (villager)
    7. █ Miller (miller_italian)
    8. █ Miller (miller_french)
    9. █ Neighbour (neighbour)
    10. █ Inspector (inspector)
    11. █ Bodyguard (bodyguard)
    12. █ Pretty Lady (hooker)
    13. █ Villager (villager)
    14. █ French Canadian Mafia (french_mafia)
    15. █ Deputy (deputy)
    16. █ Italian Mafia (italian_mafia)
    17. █ Mayor (mayor)
    18. █ Villager (villager)
    This would basically be to reduce the gap between the FCM and IM spawn and counterbalance the sudden addition of two threats with more information + a VCLR.

    Looks good. We should probably get a test at a reasonable size game, but otherwise will be ready to update whenever the summary is "fixed". Besides removing the [testing] part of it, the sentence "Not only has one troupe of mafia members moved in but two!" should have a comma, and maybe the last sentence should be about the Voicing theme, since currently it seems to suggest a Follow the Cop setup.
     
  21. Yttrium

    Yttrium Well-Known Member Developer Developer

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2010
    Messages:
    618
    Likes Received:
    280
    PO Trainer Name:
    Yttrium
    (18:46:18) ±Role: Miller
    (18:46:18) ±Ability: Inspected as Mafia, Italian Mafia or French Canadian Mafia. Sees itself as a Villager. Sided with Village.
    (18:46:18) ±Players: 2-40 Players

    Players is inaccurate. I think Miller first appears at 8 players?
     
  22. Yttrium

    Yttrium Well-Known Member Developer Developer

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2010
    Messages:
    618
    Likes Received:
    280
    PO Trainer Name:
    Yttrium
    Why exactly do we have silent nights in Default?