Default

BG immune to watch would beat most of the point of having a watcher.

Surviving a lynch is a bit too strong for small games. Maybe a better idea would be to make WW a bulletproof so they are not taken down to crossfire so easily. To prevent Werewolf being found by Mafia so easily, the evasion message could instead say they were protected.

 

I prefer Idea C as it is both a simple and a balanced Default. A teammate for Godfather may be a Mayor, to get new players to understand the Mafia Mayor or "Kuja" concept. I think Bulletproof will actually confuse a lot of players. I think a better addition to WereWolf would be to add a one time poison charge. I think a poison lasting for two days is a boost enough. Especially for small games.

 

No Kuja will be added. A simple evil mayor (2 votes) is possible though.

Poison is not going to be added.

 

Hmmm, I am unsure how much far you wanna be strict about unusual abilities but maybe some of them could help you reach your achievement.
1) You want "A theme that encourages communication, teamwork and other player skills" and not "A theme where only 1 role matters and everyone only follows around.". Maybe you can add a village role able to Identify any player that uses a not mortal action on him.
2) From what i understand the inspectors of this version inspects sides instead then roles, so If watch is a No ability, maybe the 2 bosses instead to have different active abilities: they could have different passive abilities. With one immune to distract and the other a bad miller which inspects as sided with village.
3) The main problem for the Godfather with big games is the team survival because they are the smallest team. So maybe a good companion could be a Protector or a Safeguarder, depending if it would be better to be safe from night-kills or distraction. The only problem is that if Godfather dies he has nearly no way to win.

 

Possibly yes, but poison/piercing kills is not one of them.

The idea is to achieve that by making it harder for Inspector to claim freely, which would force them to find a voice. Also, by making it harder for a PR to get confirmed clean, players will have to deduce who they should trust.
Finding a way to encourage fake-claims is another thing that I would like to try.

No, Side Inspector is just an idea for now. The inspector only see all mafia roles (Boss/Spy) as a Goon, the rest of the roles are being inspected normally.
Watch is not out of question, but we may need to find a way to make it effective at finding BG without making that chance 99% (as it would be if it was a simply watch).
Baddies inspected as village is something I want to avoid, since the idea is balance the use of Voicing tactics and Follow the Cop.

I don't see much point into having a teammate with Safeguard, as the idea is to have GF already immune to distract by default.

Most people seem to think that GF needs to survive more, so I guess a protection ability is a given. As for when GF dies, the logical possibilities to give a chance to their partner be:
1) Extra Votes
2) Having a kill (separated or shared)
3) onDeath to give them a buff

A crazy idea I had now would be to split GF's /kill command into two, and then make one of them being the fastest kill, while the other would be the slowest and shared with that partner. Not sure if a good idea, but it's something.

 

The changes wouldn't actually make default more popular, just slightly change it in a way where there are other things. w/e, idea C is best. B is annoying if a goon will always get information. Not necessary for smaller games. Mafia spy (diff name imo) with additional pseudo-information things are good. Although I agree with Wind that watch shouldn't be one. Both stalking suffices. Although the roles list needs to account should kind of baby mafia by giving them powers when the village gets numbers. Like spy + goon, then goon + don, then spy + don -> then all together finally with more goons.

Two werewolves in larger numbers is fine if they each get their own kill (and the anti-PL). Godfather solo is supposed to be really good. I personally don't see it, but it isn't a role that's supposed to win? Idk. It has a very good /potential/ win rate. IMO, just buff it. Like 1-shot NK evade. and +votes. Or voteshield. It is a solo role and a couple small buffs would make it pretty interesting while still default stuff.

Tips is weird. Just direct to how to play mafia maybe. Tbh, telling people about how to scumtell would be too tough or kind of redundant at the same time somehow.

 

Priority is making it a better theme. Popularity will (hopefully) come once that's settled.

I too have been liking the setup C more. Probably it will easier to control power distribution with that, and only a few players will have more than 1 action. Besides, the idea on setup B is to have the stalk/watch being 1-shot and shared between Goons, but looking at Elements I'm not sure if that's a good idea, as there's always that person wasting it N1 and the rest of the team can't do anything once that's used.

how2grammar? Jokes aside, I didn't understand exactly what you meant here due to the weird wording.
But if the concern is spawn, it will probably be Goon + Goon at first, then add a Boss, then replace 2nd Goon by Spy at larger games (22+), then keep adding Goons. BTW, I'm thinking about replacing a Goon instead of simply adding Spy because otherwise the Spy will come far too late.

Remember that one of the goals is to reduce crossfire. Less bad sides also mean the baddies have, in a way, more information.

Making Godfather stronger while still solo is also a good alternative, so more ideas on this are welcome. The only concern is that GF is intended to spawn at around 22p, so their power must be compatible with this game size, but in an eventual 35p they will probably have some difficult if they are still solo.

 

Oops.
"Although the roles list needs to account should kind of baby mafia by giving them powers when the village gets numbers. Like spy + goon, then goon + don, then spy + don -> then all together finally with more goons. " - me

I mean to say that the roles lists should increase mafia power accordingly. And in a way so that the spy appears in decently sized games. Which is why I mean goon + spy instead of goon + don during 12-15 or so and then changing to don later on. I think you understand the pros to this.

Reducing kills is good. I only meant Werewolf in games of 30+ or so where there are too many people and some milling is needed. Maybe just add a temporary kill to mafia? Or basic numbers increase so more of them can die and the side can still survive for a little bit. I prefer the latter though.

One of GF's abilities should be that it avoids the kills of other Mafia groups, which is why x-shot is nice. +votes gives it power against village if village lets it steamroll.

As for that person wasting the spy's ability n1, 2x shot should be fine. And maybe a second spy or something other informative role (if not more) in larger games. In larger games, I would not mind spy becoming a permanent stalker. Hell, 3x all the time seems fine to me. 3 nights of stalking is more than enough time to find some info (or none, but the x-shot wouldn't matter if that's the case).

 

I made the 2nd draft. Here it is:

Spoiler

VILLAGE
-Villager
-Inspector: Can find a player's role; Mafia Boss/Tracker are inspected as normal FCM/IM.
-Pretty Lady: Can distract every night. If a Mafia is distracted, that person is immune to PL for the next turn.
-Bodyguard
-Vigilante
-Neighbour: Can reveal itself to another player during the night
-Mayor: 2 votes
-Miller: Inspected as Mafia (small games) or FCM/IM (medium-large games). Millers will always appear as Miller on Current Roles list or when killed/lynched.
-Deputy: Can verify if someone used an action during the night.

MAFIA
-Mafia Goon: Shared Nightkill

WEREWOLF
-Werewolf: Nightkill. Kill distractors. Evades 1 nightkill.

GODFATHER
-Godfather: 2 Nightkills. Can Inspect. Immune to distraction. Evades 1 nightkill.

ITALIAN MAFIA (shared nightkill, team-reveal)
-Italian Mafia: Normal mafia
-Italian Boss: Immune to distraction, can distract once per game
-Italian Tracker: Can stalk twice per game

FRENCH CANADIAN MAFIA (shared nightkill, team-reveal)
-French Canadian Mafia: Normal mafia
-French Canadian Boss: Immune to distraction, can distract once per game
-French Canadian Tracker: Can stalk twice per game

Notes about roles:
-IM will have faster kills, FCM will have more members
-Charges for Mafia Boss' distract could increase to 2 on large (22+ players) games
-Charges for Mafia Tracker' stalk could increase to 3 on large (25+ players) games
-Deputy will probably be used only on large games (22+ players)
-Godfather is mostly a stronger Werewolf (reminder that Werewolf will likely not spawn on large games). For now, I'd rather try the Solo Role path and leave an eventual teammate for another time.
-For Mafia names, I'm thinking about changing Don to Boss (Don Italian Mafia -> Italian Boss) so it gets grouped with the rest of the mafia on Current Roles list and on /roles.
-I decided to go with the Tracker setup for IM/FCM so not many players will have 2 commands (which can be confusing for new players) and to make it easier to control when mafia gain more power.

Priority (draft):
Mafia Bosses (Distract)
Pretty Lady (Distract)
Bodyguard (Protect)
Werewolf (Kill)
Italian Mafia (Kill)
French Canadian Mafia(Kill)
Godfather (Kill)
Vigilante (Kill)
Godfather (Inspect)
Inspector (Inspect)
Neighbour (Greet)
Deputy/Mafia Trackers (Stalk)

Notes:
-Since both Mafia Bosses ignore distraction, their priority for /distract makes no difference as one cannot prevent the other from using it anyway.
-Deputy and Mafia Trackers will be able to see each other's actions (AKA priority between them will not be a problem).
-Yes, Vigilante slower than Godfather.

Spawn ratios is the same as mentioned before. As a reference:

Spoiler

04p - 3:1 (Village:Mafia)
07p - 5:2 (Village:Mafia)

09p - 6:2:1 (Village:Mafia:Werewolf)
12p - 8:3:1 (Village:Mafia:Werewolf)

13p - 9:2:2 (Village:FCM:IM)
15p - 11:2:2 (Village:FCM:IM)
20p - 14:3:3 (Village:FCM:IM)

22p - 15:3:3:1 (Village:FCM:IM:Godfather)
25p - 17:4:3:1 (Village:FCM:IM:Godfather)
30p - 20:5:4:1 (Village:FCM:IM:Godfather)
35p - 23:6:5:1 (Village:FCM:IM:Godfather)
40p - 26:7:6:1 (Village:FCM:IM:Godfather)

Tell me what you think, what you agree or disagree with and suggestions for names for roles or commands that you think it would work better.

 

Personally I like the idea of GF being immune to all kills but this working idea is fine

Vigilante v GF would be fine if my above change was done but this is still okay, anything to buff up solo roles

 

Yes. The only difference now is that Godfather won't succumb to a 1 vs 1 against Vigilante.

 

Since there was not much discussion going on here, I decided to code the theme as proposed on my last draft. Code is here: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10065307/Mafia/NewDefault.js
The only differences from the last draft is that Mafia Bosses get a 2nd distract on 24+ players, Mafia Trackers get a 3rd stalk on 27+ and Godfather gets 2 evadeCharges at 31+ players.

I also wrote some tips about basic tactics that I would like to see encouraged, but they ended a bit too long, so suggestions to make them shorter are appreciated.
Oh, and I found that summary for Default that was added to the theme for a few days then lost after an update (or at least I think I found it), so I added it as the summary for this version.

Lastly, I named it Default2 because 1) It's meant to be only a test at first and 2) To make it easier to notice it's a different version.

 

There's no error there. Both Mafia Bosses ignore distract, which means it makes no difference if they distract each other, which is the only situation where priority could be an issue.

IM has better priority, so FCM spawns their roles earlier. This is the case for the bosses too.

What's the point of having an Inspector in a setup with only 1 Mafia that's also a Mole?
Sure, this setup can be improved, but the idea here is to encourage communication.

Although using Deputy is a cool idea, I think keeping Inspector for small games should be a priority since it's a more common role in themes.

One of the concepts for this new version of Default is to encourage Voicing over Follow the Cop tactics. For this to work, Moles are a complete no-no.
Even without that concept, Moles are a lot harder to grasp for new players than Millers.

Because WW is a role designed for small games, all atempts of putting it on large games never worked. Also, the theme aims to reduce crossfire, which requires less sides spawning.
On larger games, GF is the replacement for WW, since at some point more kills are necessary to not make games too slow, but even in these cases the idea is to replace, not to add more sides.

Re-arranging those secondary PRs can be done.

Both points already mentioned before. Moles are too confusing, WW generates unnecessary crossfire and Mafia with distract is to encourage Voicing and reduce the "Hunt the BG" games that always give Mafia intense headaches.

Yes, that's an error with the info only.
As for the PL, if they distract Mafia Goon or Tracker once, that same player will be immune to it for the next night. Teammates still can be distracted meanwhile, and after that 1-night immunity they are back to being distractable.
And it's not that "Boss evade even with the 1-turn PL immunity", it's that their immunity is a full-fledged one.

PL is a heck of a strong role in the current Default. This version was designed to not allow roles like BG and PL to be so overwhelming for mafia to deal with.
With GF being a solo role, I'm not sure about giving that information to other Mafia, but you do have a point in that it will rarely work in their favour since there's only one BG around. I don't know, need more discussion about this. (random thought: Would anyone ever try to fake-claim Inspector as GF by relying on that?)

Inspector + Full Stalker in same game is kind of a nightmare to mafia. Deputy is meant to be a secondary information role (replacing Spy), not a central PR.

Actually, Default already lost much of its purpose a long time ago. Lots of themes like Kirby and Zelda introduce the whole Follow the Cop format a lot better than Default, so the idea is to make Default focus on the actual basics of mafia (communication, scum reading, etc) over centralized PRs.

 

pls, the /tips says it's on Friday, not Tuesday.
I believe when you say you want to avoid those complicated situations, you mean at spawn time, since it's not really possible to make it last the whole game. In that case, it's a fair suggestion.

Noted.

I'd like to have Inspector at least at 7p+, so since you are suggesting 4~6, the PL/WW/Neighbour setup may work (I was under the impression your suggestion was aimed at 7~8p too).

Those 3 PLs have quite a few restrictions, so they won't reduce the kills that much. In any case, either spawning GF (or even Vigi) 2~3 slots earlier could be made.

I guess spawning bosses earlier is not a problem. I expected they would be too much on those sizes, but who knows, could as well try it.

Even with Bosses around PL would still be quite strong without that temporary immunity, since the best they can do is to prevent stall for 1 turn if they know PL. PL still can clean villagers and get them to voice them normally, possibly requiring just a bit more of reading skills to be sure they can connect to that or not.

I wonder if that would encourage BG to not always stick to Inspector so they try to troll mafia by protecting a different person. Then again, not a priority, if you feel the evasion looking like a protection is not really necessary I could change that.

 

I made a few changes to spawn based on the discussion above. Here's the list:

Spoiler

List 1 (4~6 players):

1. █ Werewolf (werewolf)
2. █ Villager (villager)
3. █ Pretty Lady (hooker)
4. █ Neighbour (neighbour)
5. █ Villager (villager)
6. █ Villager (villager)

List 2 (7~12 players):

1. █ Villager (villager)
2. █ Miller (miller_mafia)
3. █ Inspector (inspector)
4. █ Mafia (mafia)
5. █ Neighbour (neighbour)
6. █ Bodyguard (bodyguard)
7. █ Mafia Boss (mafia_boss)
8. █ Villager (villager)
9. █ Werewolf (werewolf)
10. █ Pretty Lady (hooker)
11. █ Villager (villager)
12. █ Mafia (mafia)

List 3 (13~18 players):

1. █ Italian Mafia (italian_mafia)
2. █ Italian Boss (italian_boss)
3. █ French Canadian Mafia (french_mafia)
4. █ French Canadian Boss (french_boss)
5. █ Villager (villager)
6. █ Villager (villager)
7. █ Villager (villager)
8. █ Miller (miller_italian)
9. █ Miller (miller_french)
10. █ Neighbour (neighbour)
11. █ Inspector (inspector)
12. █ Bodyguard (bodyguard)
13. █ Pretty Lady (hooker)
14. █ Villager (villager)
15. █ French Canadian Mafia (french_mafia)
16. █ Villager (villager)
17. █ Mayor (mayor)
18. █ Italian Mafia (italian_mafia)

List 4 (19~21 players):

1. █ Italian Boss (italian_boss)
2. █ Italian Tracker (italian_tracker)
3. █ Italian Mafia (italian_mafia)
4. █ French Canadian Boss (french_boss)
5. █ French Canadian Tracker (french_tracker)
6. █ French Canadian Mafia (french_mafia)
7. █ Villager (villager)
8. █ Villager (villager)
9. █ Villager (villager)
10. █ Villager (villager)
11. █ Miller (miller_italian)
12. █ Miller (miller_french)
13. █ Inspector (inspector)
14. █ Bodyguard (bodyguard)
15. █ Pretty Lady (hooker)
16. █ Mayor (mayor)
17. █ Neighbour (neighbour)
18. █ Deputy (deputy)
19. █ Godfather (godfather)
20. █ Villager (villager)
21. █ Villager (villager)

List 5 (22~24 players):

1. █ Italian Tracker (italian_tracker)
2. █ Italian Mafia (italian_mafia)
3. █ Italian Boss (italian_boss_plus)
4. █ French Canadian Boss (french_boss_plus)
5. █ French Canadian Tracker (french_tracker)
6. █ French Canadian Mafia (french_mafia)
7. █ Villager (villager)
8. █ Villager (villager)
9. █ Villager (villager)
10. █ Villager (villager)
11. █ Villager (villager)
12. █ Villager (villager)
13. █ Villager (villager)
14. █ Miller (miller_italian)
15. █ Miller (miller_french)
16. █ Inspector (inspector)
17. █ Bodyguard (bodyguard)
18. █ Pretty Lady (hooker)
19. █ Mayor (mayor)
20. █ Neighbour (neighbour)
21. █ Godfather (godfather)
22. █ Deputy (deputy)
23. █ Villager (villager)
24. █ French Canadian Mafia (french_mafia)

List 6 (25~27 players):

1. █ Italian Tracker (italian_tracker_plus)
2. █ Italian Mafia (italian_mafia)
3. █ Italian Boss (italian_boss_plus)
4. █ French Canadian Boss (french_boss_plus)
5. █ French Canadian Tracker (french_tracker_plus)
6. █ French Canadian Mafia (french_mafia)
7. █ Villager (villager)
8. █ Villager (villager)
9. █ Villager (villager)
10. █ Villager (villager)
11. █ Villager (villager)
12. █ Villager (villager)
13. █ Villager (villager)
14. █ Miller (miller_italian)
15. █ Miller (miller_french)
16. █ Inspector (inspector)
17. █ Bodyguard (bodyguard)
18. █ Pretty Lady (hooker)
19. █ Mayor (mayor)
20. █ Neighbour (neighbour)
21. █ Godfather (godfather)
22. █ Deputy (deputy)
23. █ Villager (villager)
24. █ French Canadian Mafia (french_mafia)
25. █ Vigilante (vigilante)
26. █ Italian Mafia (italian_mafia)
27. █ Neighbour (neighbour)

List 7 (28~40 players):

1. █ Italian Mafia (italian_mafia)
2. █ Italian Tracker (italian_tracker_plus)
3. █ French Canadian Mafia (french_mafia)
4. █ French Canadian Tracker (french_tracker_plus)
5. █ Villager (villager)
6. █ Villager (villager)
7. █ Villager (villager)
8. █ Miller (miller_italian)
9. █ Miller (miller_french)
10. █ Mayor (mayor)
11. █ Inspector (inspector)
12. █ Bodyguard (bodyguard)
13. █ Pretty Lady (hooker)
14. █ Villager (villager)
15. █ French Canadian Boss (french_boss_plus)
16. █ Villager (villager)
17. █ Neighbour (neighbour)
18. █ Italian Boss (italian_boss_plus)
19. █ Villager (villager)
20. █ Villager (villager)
21. █ Godfather (godfather_plus)
22. █ Vigilante (vigilante)
23. █ Villager (villager)
24. █ French Canadian Mafia (french_mafia)
25. █ Deputy (deputy)
26. █ Italian Mafia (italian_mafia)
27. █ Neighbour (neighbour)
28. █ French Canadian Mafia (french_mafia)
29. █ Bodyguard (bodyguard)
30. █ Villager (villager)
31. █ Miller (miller_french)
32. █ Italian Mafia (italian_mafia)
33. █ Miller (miller_italian)
34. █ French Canadian Mafia (french_mafia)
35. █ Pretty Lady (hooker)
36. █ Villager (villager)
37. █ French Canadian Mafia (french_mafia)
38. █ Vigilante (vigilante)
39. █ Italian Mafia (italian_mafia)
40. █ Deputy (deputy)

A few notes I took while making those changes:
4~6p:
Used the PL/Neighbour/WW/Villager/Villager/Villager setup suggested by Miki.

7~12p:
Mafia Boss created (can distract and stuff, same as Italian/French Bosses. WW doesn't kill Mafia Boss if distracted, just ignore it)
Mayor replaced by Neighbour.
Should I keep Miller on 7p or swap it with the Villager that spawn at 8p or 11p to make voicing easier?

13p~18p:
Bosses spawn earlier (AKA always that this list is used)
Swapped Mayor and Neighbour spawns
Should I make 2nd FCM and 2nd IM spawn 1 slot earlier each and add Deputy at 18~19?

19p+:
Didn't focus too much here, but I made GF spawn earlier and Deputy spawn before Vigilante.

Overall, the focus was to highlight roles that need to work together with others (so Deputy and Neighbour appear more), and to keep the whole "Voicing over Follow the Cop" concept consistent through all game sizes.

 

(18:46:18) ±Role: Miller
(18:46:18) ±Ability: Inspected as Mafia, Italian Mafia or French Canadian Mafia. Sees itself as a Villager. Sided with Village.
(18:46:18) ±Players: 2-40 Players

Players is inaccurate. I think Miller first appears at 8 players?

 

Why exactly do we have silent nights in Default?