1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Guest, PO has ceased our separate tiering and adopted Smogon tiers for SM. More information and updates here.

    Dismiss Notice

Set Suggestions and Changes (read the OP before posting)

Discussion in 'Gen 6 Battle Factory' started by Xdevo, Sep 24, 2013.

  1. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,524
    Likes Received:
    1,616
    Only use this thread if there isn't anyone online. It's a lot easier and faster to just talk to the reviewers in #BF Review. Submitting the set yourself makes it a lot easier as well, because reviewers cannot accept their own sets. ~sulc

    This is the thread for posting any changes you feel are needed to be changed in someway, or removed entirely. Please give reasoning for the changes you suggest and give another option in place of it for change suggestions.

    Be sure to give an import of the set you are talking about and which tier it is found in.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 17, 2015
  2. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2012
    Messages:
    4,289
    Likes Received:
    2,267
    PO Trainer Name:
    Finchinator / Finch
    Although Choice Scarf Dodrio may appear pretty mediocre on paper, it is pretty good in practice and certainly worthy of having a set.
    People like Meeps used it in the POCL and to get relitively high on the Standard NU ladder, too. In addition, NU only has a few Pokemon that can resist its main attacks (Klingklang, Rhydon, Golem, Mawile, and Gigalith off the top of my head.) Although the typical physical walls like Alomomola can still wall it, rocks aren't too common and/or reliable in BF, you can't assure getting a wall/resist, and Dodrio is really a great revenge killer for BF.

    Edit: Meeps used Fearow in POCL, my bad. Still standing by my opinion, though.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2013
  3. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2012
    Messages:
    1,137
    Likes Received:
    854
    PO Trainer Name:
    Afro Smash
    This isn't up to date, im pretty sure majority of those sets (at least for lower tiers) have been deleted/adjusted.
     
  4. Raducan

    Raducan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2013
    Messages:
    1,366
    Likes Received:
    1,135
    Wifi Ubers:

    Kyogre @ Leftovers
    Ability: Drizzle
    Calm Nature, Level 100
    Scald / Rest / Roar / Sleep Talk
    EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 SpD
    IVs: All 31
    Stats: 404 HP / 212 Atk / 226 Def / 336 SpA / 407 SpD / 216 Spe

    I get this set a lot in BF Ubers and I do not like it. I feel the using Kyogre as a special wall isn't the best idea. I know that this set can wall special attackers, but it can't do anything to them except roar them out. I also think that this set gets worn down too easily. For example, if it just got hit by a Specs Spacial Rend and the opponent gets roared out to a Ferrothorn, Kyogre is forced to switch in something and not be able to rest, or else it's gone. I just don't think this set carries its weight.

    Zekrom @ Leftovers
    Ability: Teravolt
    Jolly Nature, Level 100
    Bolt Strike / Hone Claws / Dragon Claw / Substitute
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    IVs: All 31
    Stats: 342 HP / 399 Atk / 276 Def / 248 SpA / 236 SpD / 306 Spe
    Generation: Black/White 2

    I'm not a big fan of this set because it just gets walled so hard by Ferrothorn. I don't think that Hone Claws does much for Zekrom, if Zekrom isn't behind a sub, it can easily be revenge killed by a scarfer or just a max speed base 100 poke.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2013
  5. fitzy

    fitzy Heart of the cards Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2012
    Messages:
    883
    Likes Received:
    295
    AP0A0W00F2S4K9N2F9S700000000470VVVVVV51
    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Ability: Serene Grace
    Timid Nature, Level 100
    Substitute / Calm Mind / Thunder / Water Pulse
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    IVs: All 31
    Stats: 404 HP / 212 Atk / 236 Def / 236 SpA / 237 SpD / 328 Spe
    Generation: Black/White 2

    Asked in indigo for opinions:(17:48:53) fitzyhbbe: do people still run sub cm thunder wp jirachi in ou?
    (17:49:04) Hit-Girl: y
    (17:49:10) Hit-Girl: uncommon tho
    (17:49:17) Hit-Girl: Thunder + STAB is way more common now
    (17:49:32) fitzyhbbe: It's a bf set so idk
    (17:49:44) fitzyhbbe: I'd think in bf you'd not want thunder
    (17:50:36) +Hannah: fitzy, then run Psyshock/FLash cannon more
    (17:50:43) BoostedSplash forfeited against ZoroDark.
    (17:50:45) Hit-Girl: what
    (17:50:56) Hit-Girl: anyway
    (17:50:58) +Hannah: I ladder a lot, and that set is pretty common
    (17:51:02) Hit-Girl: Should be removed @ Fitzy
    (17:51:02) +Hannah: It's either baitset or that

    Removed
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 26, 2013
  6. Raducan

    Raducan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2013
    Messages:
    1,366
    Likes Received:
    1,135
    HV0E4J02J2SFBCCBADK000400700070TVVVVV51
    Reshiram @ Life Orb
    Ability: Turboblaze
    Naive Nature, Level 100
    Blue Flare / Stone Edge / Dragon Pulse / Flame Charge
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    IVs: 29 HP
    Stats: 339 HP / 277 Atk / 236 Def / 399 SpA / 248 SpD / 306 Spe
    Generation: Black/White 2

    Opinions in the channel:
    (20:37:10) Raducan: Hey guys, I've been laddering in BF and I've seen/had this set a lot. Opinions on it?
    (20:38:33) +Xdevo: That seems
    (20:38:36) +Xdevo: like a really old set
    (20:39:25) +Dr. Fuji: it's not a bad set
    (20:39:31) +Dr. Fuji: I won a battle with it
    (20:39:33) +Dr. Fuji: once
    (20:39:36) Raducan: I just feel like that
    (20:39:40) Raducan: Most people that use the set
    (20:39:41) +Xdevo: Winning a battle with a set
    (20:39:42) Raducan: Get*
    (20:39:45) +Xdevo: doesn't make it good
    (20:39:47) +Dr. Fuji: I know
    (20:39:49) Raducan: Don't know how to use it
    (20:40:03) Raducan: effectively
    (20:40:16) +Xdevo: Do we have defensive Ho-Oh
    (20:40:34) Raducan: nope
    (20:41:26) +Xdevo: Does LO DMeteor 2HKO Ho-Oh before or after Rocks?
    (20:41:38) +Xdevo: *Offensive Ho-Oh
    (20:41:48) Raducan: from a what?
    (20:43:42) +Xdevo: Resh
    (20:46:18) Raducan: Focus Blast: 17.1 - 20.24%
    (20:46:18) Raducan: 252+ SpA Life Orb Reshiram Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Ho-Oh: 250-294 (60.24 - 70.84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    (20:46:46) Raducan: Timid:252 SpA Life Orb Reshiram Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Ho-Oh: 227-269 (54.69 - 64.81%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    (20:46:54) +Xdevo: I don't see the huge need for Stone Edge
    (20:47:03) Raducan: Yeah, I agree

    Edit: This set has since been removed (upon agreement with others) and another LO Reshiram set has been submitted.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2013
  7. puregenius

    puregenius :<

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2011
    Messages:
    481
    Likes Received:
    50
    ah bloody hell had responses fully typed out and then left the page by accident :\
    anyway the tldr version:

    lol mate a special wall that can wall special atkers doesnt carry its weight?
    and being able to roar them out is already very good compared to chans/bliss who just gets set up on (he can also burn checks with scald)
    the example u provided isnt great considering it applies to pretty much every thing that can phaze
    gira: what if u phaze to latios
    luiga: what if u phaze to zekrom
    heres some of the stuff spdef ogre checks: most cm arceus, darkrai, kyurem w, reshi

    the reason subhc zek was invented/is used is because it can beat ferro lol
    the idea is to sub up so u can set up hone claws freely
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2013
  8. MewtwoHidden

    MewtwoHidden My Hax Makes Me Famous

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2012
    Messages:
    823
    Likes Received:
    119
    PO Trainer Name:
    MewtwoHidden
    The entire point of the SpDefensive Kyogre set is to wall Special Offensive Pokemon, which we all know it can do just fine so I say keep it.
    If you can't beat Ferrothorn with SubClaws Zekrom then odds are you're doing it wrong.

    I'd advise against that Mewtwo set; I doubt it has any competitive value. As far as Lugia I believe I've seen Lugia sets not inclined towards walling such as a CM set; I think that should be removed, but any set inclined towards walling I think should be kept.
     
  9. The Real Elmo

    The Real Elmo Caterpie hungers...

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2010
    Messages:
    618
    Likes Received:
    33
    Can we get Quick Attack>Roost on LC Tailow?
    It never finds any time to use Roost, and Quick attack can help it hit all the random faster scarfers
     
  10. Arceus_17

    Arceus_17 Avoid eye contact

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2012
    Messages:
    296
    Likes Received:
    75
    PO Trainer Name:
    [Brief]A_17
    PLEASE DO THIS
     
    Joyverse likes this.
  11. Arceus_17

    Arceus_17 Avoid eye contact

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2012
    Messages:
    296
    Likes Received:
    75
    PO Trainer Name:
    [Brief]A_17
    That Stalltwo is amazing and probably one of the best Mewtwo sets. Can defeat virtually any non-fire Pokémon and super effective scarfers like Genesect or Darkrai.

    In LU, I agree that Sub + Magnet Rise Aggron is in general inferior to banded and even Rock Polish sets.

    In LC; Ice Shard in Scarf Shellder is a joke, as it's only real use, if you can say so, is to avoid Sucker Punches or finish 1HP Scarf Magnemite. Razor Shell is by far a better option.



    I am okay with E-Belt Infernape in OU and Scarf Dodrio in NU.
     
  12. Raducan

    Raducan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2013
    Messages:
    1,366
    Likes Received:
    1,135
    AN081Y00F2SEL072HCE70002O003S0OVVVVVV51
    Groudon @ Leftovers
    Ability: Drought
    Impish Nature, Level 100
    Dragon Tail / Fire Punch / Earthquake / Stealth Rock
    EVs: 252 HP / 96 Def / 136 SpD / 24 Spe
    IVs: All 31
    Stats: 404 HP / 336 Atk / 374 Def / 212 SpA / 250 SpD / 222 Spe
    Generation: Black/White 2

    The EVs on this thing are quite weird. Would be better if all the EVs went to HP/Def.


    AN0N1Y00F2S2HCE071A700014006000VVVVVV51
    Groudon @ Leftovers
    Ability: Drought
    Careful Nature, Level 100
    Earthquake / Stealth Rock / Fire Punch / Roar
    EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 SpD
    IVs: All 31
    Stats: 404 HP / 336 Atk / 326 Def / 212 SpA / 297 SpD / 216 Spe
    Generation: Black/White 2

    Not a huge fan of special defensive Groudon. Most people that play BF probably don't even realize it is specially defensive, and thus use it incorrectly.
     
  13. Arceus_17

    Arceus_17 Avoid eye contact

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2012
    Messages:
    296
    Likes Received:
    75
    PO Trainer Name:
    [Brief]A_17
    Scarf Mence appreciates the removal of Lugia sets.
     
  14. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2010
    Messages:
    2,702
    Likes Received:
    890
    Hi, can we rekindle the "Enslave Lugia" trend, it's still as dumb as it was before and makes BF Ubers a massive drag whenever it shows up, it's seriously not a healthy mon.
     
  15. Arceus_17

    Arceus_17 Avoid eye contact

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2012
    Messages:
    296
    Likes Received:
    75
    PO Trainer Name:
    [Brief]A_17
    There are a couple of sets that come to my mind which need to be refixed as soon as possible in BF LU.


    - Sawsbuck has Nature Power which is now pointless since it no longer performs Earthquake, but Tri Attack. Jump Kick is a viable alternative.
    - Clefable's wallbreaking set must be entirely reformuled, including Ev distribution, or simply deleted since Double Edge is no longer STAB and it lacks a strong Fairy physical move to replace it.
     
  16. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2012
    Messages:
    968
    Likes Received:
    744
    Both are not going to happen, these sets will be permanently gone (unless someone wants to implement support for past generations) once we have Gen 6 sets. For now deal with it as they work with Gen 5 mechanics. Note that these are Gen 5 sets mistakenly being played with Gen 6 mechanics. There is no reason to get rid of them when all of the sets will most likely be gone in a few weeks.
     
  17. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2012
    Messages:
    1,262
    Likes Received:
    431
    If at all possible, I wouldn't mind if we start with the replacing of the sets and stuff, but if the day comes we are able to have it, someone should save the sets somewhere in case we are one day able to have both gen 5 and 6 battle factory, and with the proper mechanics. I'd hate to see all that work go to waste if it ends up as a minor inconvenience just at this point in time. So, unless they are actually stored in some database right now that's easily accessible as like a backup/storage thing, I wouldn't mind doing that for the unforseen future. But, I'd rather all that work just be somewhere, rather than if they get perma-deleted from everything.
     
  18. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2012
    Messages:
    968
    Likes Received:
    744
    Well, by permanently I meant they wouldn't be available for use in the near future and the packs would be disabled. It would be a waste to actually delete them.
     
  19. Sasuke Uchiha

    Sasuke Uchiha God of tits and wine

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2011
    Messages:
    316
    Likes Received:
    204
    PO Trainer Name:
    Yellan
    Hi. Today I discovered you guys added a set for Xerneas in the Battle Factory tier. The set I am speaking of is the one that sets itself up to kill literally everything in one turn thanks to power herb geomancy ^.^
    I think this set should be removed because if it manages to set up, the opponent has pretty much lost the game if he didn't get a counter.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2013
  20. Hannah

    Hannah Come a little closer

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2010
    Messages:
    985
    Likes Received:
    237
    PO Trainer Name:
    Hannah
    Isn't that how most/all setup sweepers work in BF?
     
  21. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2012
    Messages:
    968
    Likes Received:
    744
    If it is a viable set in Ubers I see no reason to get rid of it. The set shows up on occasions and does not guarantee a win 100%. With XY Ubers there are bound to be Pokemon that are "broken" because of the nature of Ubers as a ban list where Pokemon have very few checks and counters. On a side note, the XY Ubers pack was accidentally enabled and currently needs more sets. I have disabled it for the time being until we have enough XY sets to disable the BW2 packs.

    And yes hannah, that is how set-up sweepers work.
     
  22. Fixed

    Fixed Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2013
    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    99
    I have added a bunch of XY Ubers sets, and there are more waiting for when I can submit them. These include Xerneas counters like Aegislash, Jirachi, Scizor, Chansey and Gengar so hopefully Xerneas will be less of a problem now. While checking the currently available sets in XY Ubers I have found some sets that in my opinion are bad and should be changed. Here is a list:




    Banded Ho-oh is too slow. With only 8 speed EVs you will be outsped by nearly all base 90s, because even slow defensive sets on Pokemon like Groudon and Dialga often run 16-24 Speed to creep on each other. The extra speed also helps out a lot against other Ho-oh, unboosted Xerneas and uninvested Lugia. I personally run 252 speed, but other speed levels like 176 EVs are possible too.

    Defensive Groudon is better off without Dragon Tail. It is important that Xerneas can't set up on you, especially in Battle Factory. Suggested replacements are Roar and Thunder Wave. Roar has the additional benefits over Dragon Tail that it doesn't miss and can phaze through subs. Thunder Wave is a good move in general and right now it's very popular on defensive Groudon.

    Thunderbolt on Xerneas is a bad move. It hits only two Pokemon harder than Moonblast: Ho-oh and Tentacruel. Tentacruel is hardly used anymore, so the only point of Thunderbolt is to 2HKO Ho-oh (or OHKO after SR). The moves Thunder, Psyshock and Hidden Power Rock all do this and more: Thunder OHKOs most Ho-oh and bulky Kyogre and has a chance to OHKO Gengar, Psyshock hits Arceus-Poison, Chansey and Gengar, and HP Rock OHKOs Ho-oh.

    Geomancy Xerneas doesn't need this much speed. It is a set-up sweeper and will hardly ever be attacking unboosted. Outspeeding the likes of offensive Groudon is not important, you set up on it instead of attacking. Setting up on Specs Kyogre is never a good idea, it can possibly be Timid and outspeed you anyway. The most speed you need is to outspeed scarf Terrakion after a boost, and it is possible to downgrade to outspeeding scarf Garchomp, Palkia or Genesect. The extra bulk from the freed EVs helps a lot in taking Psystrikes etc. while setting up and taking on revenge killers with priority.

    Deoxys-S should run Spikes. The main point of Deoxys-S is putting two hazards in the first two turns before being killed. Deoxys-S with only one hazard is a waste of a spot, if you consider how easily Dialga and Groudon can set up SR. Magic Coat and Fire Punch are both useful moves, but sadly you will have to lose one of them.

    The CM Leftovers Mewtwo set is one from Gen 5, and now works better with Mewtwonite Y. I would say the same about the stallbreaker set, but arguably physical attacks hurt Mewtwo Y too much even after Will-o-wisp so this is debatable.

    SD Rayquaza is better off with an Adamant nature. The extra power behind Extremespeed is very important when attempting a sweep. The main reason for using Jolly seems to be Timid Dialga, which is very uncommon. It is also important to note that against many teams Rayquaza cannot immediately attempt a sweep because there are revenge killers, and an Adamant nature allows it to run a sort of wallbreaker role much better.

    Specs Kyogre is better off with a Timid nature. Unlike many other base 90s, it already has enough power due to the rain boost, and running Timid to outpace neutral Groudon, Ho-oh, Dialga and other Kyogre is very useful. You do not even need maximum speed, enough to outpace either neutral base 90s or neutral base 95s with the rest in HP is possibly even better.




    There are also some sets that I can't really see working in the new metagame:

    The Rest/Sleep Talk Kyogre looks very underwhelming, and the rain nerf hasn't helped it. On a select few teams it can be useful to tank certain hits, but on most teams this pokemon isn't strong enough. You are basically asking Dialga or even Ferrothorn to set up hazards. If you are lucky and your opponent doesn't run either of these, then they will probably have a standard Kyogre check like Palkia, which forces you out anyway. This Kyogre set is basically just an inferior Giratina.

    I don't like Sub/HC Zekrom. I have always thought this was kind of a gimmick set, and the decreased usage of Ferrothorn hasn't helped it. On some teams this may be a very good lure, but in most offensive matches this is just dead weight.

    The current Mega Gengar set is not a good set for Ubers. Before the ban in OU, this was a good set in that tier, but in Ubers Gengar is just not strong enough to kill Pokemon after trapping them. The Perish Song set is better for Gengar. If you feel that it is too strong for BF, feel free to not add it, but it makes little sense to put up a much worse set instead.

    Sub/CM Giratina-O is a very gimmicky set in my opinion. I have never seen it, and it can neither sweep nor lure. A quick check at the usage stats reveals that only 3% of the Giratina-O have Calm Mind. The fact that Xerneas completely walls and sets up on this Giratina-O isn't helping its cause.

    Excadrill was useful in gen 5 because it was one of the few Pokemon with Rapid Spin. However in the new generation there is the move Defog which can be used by the likes of Arceus and Giratina. So Excadrill has lost its niche and shouldn't be in Ubers anymore.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2013
  23. Sasuke Uchiha

    Sasuke Uchiha God of tits and wine

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2011
    Messages:
    316
    Likes Received:
    204
    PO Trainer Name:
    Yellan
    I don't think there is a single pokemon in the entire game that can get to +2 in Sp Atk, Sp Def and Speed in one turn while also being weak to only Steel and Poison. I don't think there is a single set in BF that gives you such an edge over the opponent at team preview, except for maybe Numel in LC.

    This isn't Ubers, this is Battle Factory. And BW2 Ubers is actually a very balanced metagame. I think an exception could be made for this particular set. But let's see if it is still this outrageous after some checks/counters are implemented.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2013
  24. Big Bad Booty Daddy

    Big Bad Booty Daddy Big Poppa Pump

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2012
    Messages:
    950
    Likes Received:
    877
    PO Trainer Name:
    -
    Banded Ho-Oh does in fact NOT need Speed. The Band set usually runs a lot of HP.

    Thunderbolt is NOT outclassed by Thunder because it is Weather reliant. And lmfao, HP Rock. No. That's not even a good move for it to have...

    Garchomp isn't very good in Ubers as a Scarf Pokemon and is outclassed by possibly every single scarf Pokemon in the tier. 280 outpaces a lot 90 Base Speed Pokemon that don't have + Speed nature.

    Spikes is very interchangeable on Deoxys-S. We figured that hitting Steel-types was more important than being able to do nothing vs. them instead of being forced to switch out.

    Mewtwo Y has 70 Base Defense, please tell me more about how it runs a good StallBreak set!

    SD Rayquaza should not be Adamant. I know the extra power on Extremespeed is nice but Dialga outpaces if it's Max Speed, and all the other 95+ base mons do. Adamant is nowhere near is as good.

    _____________________________________________________________________________________

    Specs Kyogre has solid bulk and I'd rather be able to take hits better than outpace Pokemon that I'd rather outpace. Specs Kyogre is staying how it is, that is the Kyogre set.

    RestTalk Kyogre has Roar and tanks a Xerneas +2 Thunder. Please tell me more about it is set-up bait.
    +2 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Kyogre: 302-356 (74.9 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    SubCM Zekrom is NOT bad, lmfao, it's not JUST because of Ferrothorn. I mean in all honesty if you wanted to beat Ferrothorn you'd run mainly Focus Blast over Substitute and run Life Orb. Sub HC allows you to set-up on the switch (Zekrom causes many switches)

    We decided not to add the PerishTrap Mega Gengar for now because of many reasons, one being that it's incredibly cheap and that won't enhance the Ubers metagame. We're still deciding, Raducan and I will make a decision tonight.

    Sub/CM Giratina is not bad, it COULD run Shadow Ball over D-Pulse but the bulk allows it to take a lot of common moves in Ubers without breaking the Sub and allows it to set-up or just attack from the Sub.

    Please don't walk around here like you are some sort of "Ubers God" and whatever you say is correct because you've said it. Please don't even bother adding to your post. On the server, you submitted a Specially Defensive Xerneas. Don't submit if you don't even know what you're talking about.
     
  25. Fixed

    Fixed Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2013
    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    99
    I'll not bother with adding anything to my post if you don't want me to. In fact, I might not bother with adding sets to BF at all if according to you I don't know what I'm talking about. One last comment: The ONLY thing that Xerneas wants to use Thunderbolt on instead of Moonblast or HP Rock is Tentacruel. Literally.
     
  26. Hannah

    Hannah Come a little closer

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2010
    Messages:
    985
    Likes Received:
    237
    PO Trainer Name:
    Hannah
    What about Poison Arceus and hitting other Pokemon more reliably than Focus Blast? or if you don't have HP Rock it can hit Ho-oh for what it's worth.
     
  27. Fixed

    Fixed Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2013
    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    99
    Moonblast hits Poison Arceus harder than Thunderbolt. STAB + Fairy Aura + resisted cancels out and 95 power > 90.
     
  28. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2012
    Messages:
    968
    Likes Received:
    744
    A few things I felt needed addressing:
    - Personal attacks and fighting are a big "no-no". Next person to do so is getting infracted.
    - Posts that say something is "bad" or "doesn't work" and does not elaborate are also getting infracted.
    - Any posts that are devoid from any helpful content are also getting infracted.

    Follow these steps and I will actually bother reading this thread seriously.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2013
  29. Raducan

    Raducan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2013
    Messages:
    1,366
    Likes Received:
    1,135
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2013
  30. Fixed

    Fixed Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2013
    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    99
    My apologies for not adding explanation as to why I found certain sets bad earlier. I have edited my post now.

    EDIT: I've talked to ßasedVictory and we're cool now. Don't worry about discussing the sets I commented on.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2013
  31. Arceus_17

    Arceus_17 Avoid eye contact

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2012
    Messages:
    296
    Likes Received:
    75
    PO Trainer Name:
    [Brief]A_17
    First of all I salute Fixed for sharing his thoughts on BF Ubers sets. Though I don't agree with him in most points, it is definetly important to keep this discussion alive in order to help improving Battle Factory quality.
    In my opinion, a Pokémon can hold its place in a tier if it is able to fulfill a specific purpose better than any other Pokémon. For example, the Rest/Talk Kyogre which Fixed refered to as a "worse Giratina" is able to do something that Giratina would pray for, that is walling every special Dragon-Type in the tier bar Palkia. In the same boat, Excadrill can do 3 things that any other Pokémon can't do at the same time: spinning hazards, setting hazards and sweeping. We may took these "underrated sets" for granted but they turn out to be extremely helpful under the right circumstances.

    So now it's my turn to state my opinion and ironically, my "complaint" is not about a Pokémon I consider "bad" or"outclassed". Without further delay, I think it is consensual that we have a new problem named Xerneas in BF Ubers.
    I have read here from someone that said Xerneas is a sweeper like many others - it raises its stats and then proceeds to sweep the opponent's team. Well I don't agree - at least with the first part of the sentence: Firstly, Xerneas is a unique sweeper as it is capable of raising its SpA, SpD and Spe by +2 for the slight drawback of holding a Power Herb. I consider Xerneas the perfect sweeper (as far as any Pokémon can be considered "perfect") in his perfect environment and I'll try to explain why in the following points:
    - Fairy Type - Xerneas typing is indeed a blessing. The huge amount of Dragons and, more importantly, Choiced Dragons that crawl the current BF Uber metagame and whose Dragon STABS can't touch Xerneas provide it countless oportunities to use Geomancy with complete safety. Furthermore the tier is currently relatively Steel and Poison free, with the only respective notable moves being Iron Head from Genesect and Jirachi, the recent Flash Cannon Dialga, Ferrothorn and Forretress with Gyro Ball and Judgement/Sludge Bomb from both Arceus (Steel and Poison).
    - Xerneas's natural bulk with its solid and invested (since it doesn't need 252 spd Ev's) 125/95/98 defenses that allow it to survive brutalities such as Iron Head from +1 Genesect or a +1 LO Psystrike Mewtwo.

    The fact is, never a sweeper had so many chances to setup. This doesn't happen with Shellder in LC, Samurott in NU, Klingklang in RU, Omastar in UU, Dragonite in OU or with any other Pokémon of any other tier. Adding to that, the only current sure counter to Xerneas is little Jirachi. There are a few checks that can tank a +2 hit and phaze Xerneas away (which is pretty much a death sentence to it) like Roar Kyogre, Lugia or Grass Arceus but that's about it...

    To conclude, I think it would be a good idea to promote a couple of "lower tier" Pokémon capable of dealing with Xerneas.
    Unaware Clefable or the above-mentioned Scizor are my suggestions.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2013
  32. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2012
    Messages:
    4,289
    Likes Received:
    2,267
    PO Trainer Name:
    Finchinator / Finch
    I am just going to state a few facts and supported opinions.

    There are between forty-five and fifty sets and approximately twenty-five Pokemon in current Battle Factory XY Ubers, and that number is consistently rising (thanks to ßased, Raducan, and whoever elects to submit sets that are reviewed and accepted).

    Xerneas only has one set, being the standard sweeping build.

    It is fair to say that the odds of your opponent drawing it are relatively slim.

    It is also fair to say that we aren't banning anything from the Wifi Ubers metagame, even in a BF version of it.

    Ubers is already a ban-list, we shouldn't be banning Pokemon from it (while the rare ability (moody) or overly absurd combination, item, (insert non-Pokemon factor of the game here) etc. get universally banned due to it being highly uncompetitive (once more: see moody).

    In a metagame were a Pokemon that is seen a fixed fraction of the time, it is not ideal to go out of your way and run counters that are otherwise deadweight (Examples: Shedninja, Escavlier, Bronzong, Mega-Venusaur, etc.) This is a general rule amongst BF sets and their potential acceptance. To give an actual example, I rejected Physically Defensive Golurk in BW2 OU. Although Terrakion was at its peak during this period, Golurk is too situational and otherwise mediocre to be deemed viable to the extent that acceptable BF sets require.

    If a Pokemon happens to counter Xerneas and functions decently in the metagame (or at least have a viable niche to an extent that makes it a relevant, as previously stated), then it should be added and will be one of the Xerneas answers when you have it and your opponent has Xerneas. (Examples: Scizor, Mega Scizor, Arceus-Poison, Assault Vest Dialga (I think this is a thing, but my Ubers knowledge is shoddy), Aegislash, etc.)

    There is no need to overstock on Xerneas' checks and counters.
    There is no need to ban Xerenas.

    In any given battle, an opposing 'sweeper' can 'sweep' your team, assuming you are unfortunate enough to draw no 'checks' or 'counters', your 'checks' or 'counters' die, or any other circumstance occurs which leaves you unable to defeat the aforementioned 'sweeper'. This is how competitive Pokemon works - even in non-BF games, teams have weaknesses and can get swept. Xerneas might be an above-average sweeper, but just off the top of my head before I listed a few answers to it, and this doesn't include the 'setting-up' part of 'sweeping' and the potential to get revenge killed.

    Furthermore, there is no problem with Xerneas or anything regarding it.

    P.S: tyrenitr
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2013
  33. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2010
    Messages:
    2,702
    Likes Received:
    890
    So there's almost a 1/2 chance of getting Geomancy Xerneas in the current BF Ubers on either team (obviously it'll end up with about 50 mon in due time so that's like 1/4) assuming there is only the Geomancy sweeper (1/4 and 1/8 if there is one more set). I don't know how many solid Xerneas checks there are in BF Ubers, or how many there will be. But Xerneas' checks/counters are pretty specific and the chances of just the opponent getting a set of a Pokémon that counters/checks Xerneas well are p low. In a lot of cases if you draw a Xerneas you have an extreme advantage in BF. In normal Ubers things are different, you can go out of your way to prepare for Xerneas, but not in BF, if you don't roll the Scizor/Ho-Oh (loses to Thunder/Tbolt!)/Defensive Arceus that is one of 4/5 types etc. you are going to lose to Xerneas.

    You may say it applies to "any sweeper", DD Ray is checked by most Ubers Scarfers, is really frail (suffers to Espeeds from anything that can tank a hit) and fails to KO some Groudon/Bulky Fairyceus/Lugia and is weak to SR. Ekiller is one I would agree with, if you don't get Giratina, a fortunate Arceus, Lugia or Skarm you're prolly going to bite it. But most sweepers have enough checks/counters that they don't come close to the level of prep needed for Xerneas. If you are weak to Xerneas in normal play, that's your own fault, you lost to your own mistake, if you don't happen to get one of the 6/7 sets of Pokémon that check Xerneas reliably, you lost to a dice roll. BF Ubers was p shit last gen, and Xerneas will do it again :]

    Like in BF LC we don't put in most of the Shell Smashers, most good LC teams would prepare for them in the REAL LC, but in BF they can't do that and you can roll an extremely unfair advantage, quite easily.
     
  34. Fixed

    Fixed Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2013
    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    99
    I agree with Finchinator that Xerneas isn't a huge problem. After all Pokemon are added (including a second and possibly third Xerneas set), the chance of your opponent having Xerneas will be only about 5%. Also, there are quite many Pokemon that can take on Xerneas, with more to be added. These are the current Xerneas counters, listed from most to least effective:

    Ditto
    Aegislash (counters any set)
    Jirachi (counters any set)
    SDef Kyogre(1/3) (survives even Thunder and has Roar)
    Chansey (is 2hko'd if Psyshock > Thunderbolt is added, but can Toxic back)
    Lugia (has a chance to be ohko'd after SR if Thunder > Thunderbolt is added)
    Thundurus (prankster twave so something else can revenge)
    Ho-oh(2/2) (loses to Thunderbolt/Psyshock after SR, needs some prior damage to revenge, banded set sometimes loses to Thunder at full HP)
    Smeargle (can Spore + Whirlwind if no hazards, not really relevant as Xerneas is used late game)
    Deoxys-A (Psycho Boost + Espeed revenges after some prior damage, but not really relevant again)
    Shaymin-S(1/2) (scarf set outspeeds and will always can flinch Xerneas down)
    Gengar (dies to Moonblast after SR, but with proper EVs and moveset only Psyshock kills)

    Additional Xerneas counters that could be added (in random order):

    Scizor
    SDef Forretress (maybe even with Red Card)
    Klefki (dual screens is very viable, as is the Swagger set but I hope that one won't be added)
    Shedinja
    Roar Arceus (any form not weak to Moonblast works with enough SDef)
    Scarf Mewtwo
    Lucario

    So there are enough checks and counters available. Nearly every game you will get at least one of these, so battling Xerneas is not as hopeless as some of you think. Xerneas is definitely a dangerous sweeper, and you have to be careful and keep your counter alive if your opponent has it, but it should be manageable. Other dangerous setup sweepers, especially the Arceus forms, are in my opinion just as dangerous as Xerneas.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2013
  35. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2012
    Messages:
    1,137
    Likes Received:
    854
    PO Trainer Name:
    Afro Smash
    Yeah SD normalceus is probs just as threatening, but isn't exactly uncompetitive. Things like swagger foul play sets, that perish trap gengar set and shedinja i believe shouldn't be added to BF, because they are uncompetitive and are too luck based imo.
     
  36. SilverPT

    SilverPT Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2013
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    0
    There is a slightly difference between counter and check. SDef Kyogre is not a counter since it loses a minimum of 61.3% (Thunderbolt) of health at +2 Xerneas (it's not hard to get at all, so I'm gonna be taking it in account) to be able to Roar it out. The same goes for Lugia, that has to Toxic Xerneas first and then stall with Roost (+ Multiscale). Thundurus loses 57% (Moonblast) even without any boost by Xerneas (it's OHKO'ed if Xerneas is at +2). Ho-Oh has to be at full HP to do something relevant, otherwise will lose 65.5% (Thunderbolt). Smeargle... *sigh*. Deoxys-A can only do around 63~75% with that combination before it gets killed. Skymin needs to flinch 3~4/6~7 times in a row to be able to kill Xerneas. About Gengar... I don't know which proper EVs you want in BF, but Gengar will struggle a bit.
     
  37. Fixed

    Fixed Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2013
    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    99
    Kyogre switches into Xerneas using Geomancy. Xerneas does ~70% with Moonblast (which is stronger than Thunderbolt...) and gets Roared. Power Herb gone, Xerneas countered. Lugia does the same. Thundurus dies yes, but it stops Xerneas' sweep. Ho-oh will be at full HP often if rocks are off, because of Regenerator. Smeargle can be used if you can keep hazards off and you have no other counter, it's not something you'd want to do but still it can work. Skymin depends on luck yes, but with prior damage (hazards + hit when Xerneas sets up) and possibly combined with priority it can stop Xerneas. For Gengar I want the #1 usage set, which is clearly better than the current one. ßased told me it probably won't be added though.
     
  38. SilverPT

    SilverPT Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2013
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    0
    Kyogre is indeed a strong counter. Losing 70% of HP is really nothing ("A counter, by definition, is a Pokémon that can switch into any common move of the Pokémon it is countering and either cripple it, force it out, or KO it outright, while at the same time sustaining little to negligible damage or risk to itself."). :]
    I don't know how alowing Xerneas to stay with +2 Spe Atk & Spe Def is stopping it from sweeping. But yeah.
    Smeargle... oh Arceus. Losing 99% of HP is definitly the meaning of a true counter. I think Smeargle should counter every mon.
    For Gengar, if you're talking about the set with Destiny Bond, yeah, I give you that.

    And one more thing: why do people keep insisting on putting hazards on the opponents side on not on theirs too? Cause if you're looking for counters (or even checks, I suppose) you should consider entering on the switch, taking hazard damage, the move damage and be able to kill the mon you're countering on the next turn, or at least make it switch out and not taking a considerably amout of damage. But yeah, this were just my two cents.
     
  39. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,524
    Likes Received:
    1,616
    The sarcasm is unneeded.


    The reason that Kyorge is considered a counter is because it forces Xerneas out. Xerneas has a single chance to get off Geomancy; once that chance is gone, Xerneas is crippled. Yes, Kyorge is at 30% and has to find a turn to Rest, but Xerneas is pretty much out of the match. That is why all of the "counters" people are saying are so shaky. If Xerneas gets out of play after it uses Geomancy, it's done.

    For the hazard thing, he explicitly mentions "if you can keep hazards off," that was the whole point.
     
  40. Prince LudwigVKoopa

    Prince LudwigVKoopa Bull Prince of Fullmoon Island

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2013
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    8
    PO Trainer Name:
    Prince LudwigVKoopa
    9L0K0L06H05CE6U5M2X6C003W003W00VVVVVV60
    Lileep @ Eviolite
    Ability: Suction Cups
    Calm Nature, Level 5
    Stealth Rock / Ancient Power / Giga Drain / Recover
    EVs: 228 HP / 140 Def / 140 SpD
    IVs: All 31
    Stats: 26 HP / 9 Atk / 16 Def / 12 SpA / 18 SpD / 8 Spe
    Generation: X/Y
    Submitted By: Xdevo
    Accepted By: Xdevo


    This should be Storm Drain.


    I10B2G0042SA96TCA1H007000000070VVVVVV60
    Genesect @ Choice Band
    Ability: Download
    Hasty Nature, Level 100
    U-turn / Extreme Speed / Iron Head / Flamethrower
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    IVs: All 31
    Stats: 283 HP / 339 Atk / 203 Def / 276 SpA / 226 SpD / 326 Spe
    Generation: X/Y
    Submitted By: Insane Soul
    Accepted By: Finchinator

    Missing EVs.
    (The set itself might be questionable... why not Blaze Kick?)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 30, 2014