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[BW2] Suspect Discussion: Dusclops

Discussion in 'Gen 5 NU' started by Big Bad Booty Daddy, Sep 26, 2013.

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  1. Big Bad Booty Daddy

    Big Bad Booty Daddy Big Poppa Pump

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    [​IMG]

    Discuss the possibility of Dusclops being banned from the Wifi NU tier. Use this thread to discuss Dusclops' effect on the metagame. Talk about the different sets it can use, good partners and potential checks/counters. State your opinion on whether you think Dusclops should be banned or if it should stay in the Wifi NU tier but make sure your posts are backed up by experience and knowledge. Anyone who makes post based on theorymon risks being infracted. This thread will be up for a minimum of two weeks, and a maximum of six weeks. If a vote is needed, this topic will be bumped, and details will be provided.

    READ THIS BEFORE POSTING AS WELL.


    - Feel free to back up your argument with damage calculations and usage statistics, but do not make them the base of your argumentation.

    - Don't post just for the sake of increasing your post count. If you have nothing to contribute to a thread, do not post.

    - Arguing with other users in a civil manner is allowed in this forums. Attacking someone else in your post is not.

    - If you have no experience in the metagame being discussed, refrain from posting. You should just lurk the respective sub-forum until you believe you can make a good quality post

    - Listen to the leaders of the metagame, they are in that position for a reason. However this does not mean you can't argue with them in a civil manner.

    - Common sense - Use it wisely.

    Finch edit: This thread will be moderated seriously. Also, these rules courtesy of Posting Guidelines from BR![/HIDE]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 13, 2013
  2. Daybreak

    Daybreak can't touch this

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    1. why did u get a picture of dusclops dancing the hokey pokey?

    2. Personally I have debated myself on whether or not Dusclops should be banned from nu and I am going to bring up the main points that should be brought up more.

    a) Most of the attacks thrown at Dusclops will not 2hko it. No pokemon in the nu tier can 2hko it unless if it is a really powerful dark type stab attack.............. and why would u ever switch dusclops into a dark type to begin with.
    b) Dusclops has no reliable safe switch in apart from fire types, but due to there lack of hp and stealth rock weakness, they can only come in reliably once before they lose (dusclops also carries eq from time to time so yeah fire types then couldn't even switch into that besides from charizard)
    c) Dusclops lacks any reliable recovery outside from rest and pain split. Forcing it to rest is a good way to counter Dusclops because it then will have to rely on sleep talk and your opponent will have to rely on the rng for a 33% hit on the move he desires to get. It's not the best counter but a solid one due to to odds being in your favor.
    d) Dusclops is extremely weak to entry hazards. Stealth rocks and spikes all hurt dusclops's ability to wall, especially with the lack of leftovers will keep repeatedly forcing it to take damage and rest sooner or just pain split.
    e) Dusclops is impossible to rapid spin on. Besides from foresight Wartortle and the LOLZY ring target claydol, no spinner will be able to get past dusclops, thus ensuring entry hazards to stay up always in the tier. (hazards especially hurt in nu due to lack of levitators and abundant sr weak pokes)
    f) Dusclops is a huge momentum killer for any team. All dusclops does is sit there and not do anything but burn stuff and take off 100 hp with seismic toss/night shade. Other pokemon will be able to set up on dusclops and sweep like calm mind musharna and nasty plot misdreavus and more. If dusclops decides to switch out, it will take more damage from hazards and be forced to mostlikely rest that next turn, basically waisting turns for the person using dusclops.
    g) pressure. With dusclops's bulk people need to use powerful base 120 attacks to try and pound through dusclops. However these moves only usually have 8 pp and that gets brought down to 4 with pressure. Your most powerful attacker loses it's most powerful attack after 4 turns if it doesn't defeat dusclops in that time frame. Hyper offensive teams will have soo much trouble if they lose that powerful attacker.

    With all of these opinions in mind however I do have to admit dusclops is an unhealthy part of the nu tier. Having an impossible to beat spin blocker for any rapid spinner in a very hazard stacking metagame is detrimental to anybody fighting dusclops. Not only that bust strong powerful attacks usually do not break through dusclops's sheer bulk (albeit needs to rest soon which then it brings the luck factor into the game). With this in mind I truly believe that Dusclops is an unhealthy part of this metagame and should be banned from nu. Impossible to beat, no. Too impactful on the metagame, yes

    Finch Edit: Just saying that Dusclops would be banned to Borderline 3, not LU, if it is deemed broken.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 27, 2013
  3. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    Dusclops being a good spinblocker is no argument to ban it. Misdreavus has been an excellent spinblocker for ages in NU, only being beaten by the rare SD Lum berry Armaldo. Hazard stack is indeed gaining popularity thanks to Ferroseed dropping and people realizing that Roselia is actually amazing, but Dusclops has nothing to do with that. As a spinblocker Missy has a lot more utility, from stallbreaker with Taunt to Cleric to SubCM or Nasty Plot sweeper. Dusclops is more of a wall.
     
  4. Carliphe

    Carliphe New Member

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    Lets see how dark types, the narutal counters to dusclops, performs against it.


    252+ Atk Life Orb Drapion Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 156-187 (54.92 - 65.84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb burned Drapion Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 78-94 (27.46 - 33.09%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

    252+ Atk Life Orb Skuntank Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 159-190 (55.98 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb burned Skuntank Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 79-95 (27.81 - 33.45%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO

    252 SpA Life Orb Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 125-148 (44.01 - 52.11%) -- 5.86% chance to 2HKO


    Now lets see check the numbers against a 252+ def Dusclops


    252+ Atk Life Orb Drapion Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 117-140 (41.19 - 49.29%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb burned Drapion Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 58-70 (20.42 - 24.64%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

    252+ Atk Life Orb Skuntank Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 120-143 (42.25 - 50.35%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb burned Skuntank Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 60-71 (21.12 - 25%) -- possible 4HKO

    252 SpA Life Orb Houndoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 164-195 (57.74 - 68.66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


    As we can see special houndoom (wich is not that popular in NU) is the only dark type that can counter dusclops because of sheer power and inmunity to WOW but is extremely weak to entry hazards. Skuntank and Drapion are very sensitive to being burned, that means they can't really switch in Dusclops so they are not really counters, just checks in the best case.

    Having a poke with the hability to wall most of it "counters" and block rapid spin (in a tier that lacks good rapid spinners) is really unhealthy for the metagame, so I think it should be banned
     
  5. ZoroDark

    ZoroDark i know everything

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    Side note: http://pokemon-online.eu/forums/sho...ion-Misdreavus&p=138609&viewfull=1#post138609
    Misdreavus actually WAS banned for being an unbeatable spin blocker, so you probably want to check some facts before posting!

    About the topic at hand: Dusclops.
    We all know it's an awesome wall and yeah, it's nigh impossible to 2HKO it , but it's also the biggest set up fodder you can imagine. Ghost types like Misdreavus just laugh at it, Substitute mons give it quite a bit of trouble, it absolutely despises status, doesn't have reliable recovery outside of ResTalk and Pain Split which more often than not turns out to be a gamble. Special set-up sweepers with recovery (think Musharna) will always beat it as well (this isn't exactly a great example since Musharna beats 80% of the tier, but point is it can come in infinitely, force out Dusclops which means it'll take SR and maybe Spike damage as well, and then a lot of 4HKOs turn into 3HKOs and 3HKOs into 2HKOs).

    On paper it looks like an unbeatable mon, but in practice there's lots of ways to beat it. General hard hitters like Emboar, Ghost types like Misdreavus, bulky CM sweepers, Taunt users in general, Houndoom forces it into a mind game (not that Pursuit will KO, but it'll weaken to a point it'll be much easier to finish off) etc.
     
  6. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    Hmmm my point was more that Misdreavus is a lot more popular than Dusclops (and imo a better poke in general for reasons I stated in my previous post). If someone says they should ban Dusclops because it's an unstoppable spinblocker when Misdreavus has been an unstoppable spinblocker in the current metagame much longer and fulfills many other roles, it's just a poor argument to ban Dusclops. People still use Misdreavus a lot more than Dusclops, and will continue to do so regardless of whether Dusclops gets banned or not because Dusclops is very one-dimensional while Misdreavus can pull off countless sets effectively. That's why I think the spinblocking is a poor argument here, the main reason for suspecting Dusclops is obviously its amazing bulk, not that it can spinblock the few awful Rapid Spinners in NU. It's clearly outclassed in that aspect by Misdreavus.
     
  7. Sakuya Izayoi

    Sakuya Izayoi love to hate

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    Dusclops might seem like a unbreakable wall in nature, but it is really weak to passive damage. Because it can only hold Eviolite, it doesn't even get recovery. So basically hard-hitters such as Emboar will walk all over it, while Dusclops can only Night Shade it. However, because Dusclops has a very high defensive stats, it forces people to run Spike-stacking teams as plain damage is not enough to weaken and beat Dusclops unless you have a Dark-type in the wings to demolish it, and it cannot come in on a WoW. While it might be set-up fodder, most set up pokemon are SD varients (bar NP houndoom which actually kicks Dusclops in the ass), and all are shut down by WoW unless you run Lum berry. It forces people to run spike-stacking teams in order to weaken it, not to mention it can spread burns, has a very respectable defenses to back it up, so I'm voting for it to be banned
     
  8. MrLumber

    MrLumber Member

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    Dusclops should not be banned for the following reasons:

    Extreme set up fodder for a variety of pokes, sure certain pokes can't set up like they used to, but that seriously shouldn't matter Quagsire is in the tier.

    Completely defeated by dozens of stallbreaker pokes, and while not all can switch on WoW many are able to. Also, if you don't want your counter being willoe'd run Lickilicky. It always can take the momentum and Wish pass and heal bell on Clops.

    Claydol actually has sets with which to guarantee the ability to spin, namely trick sets.

    If dusclops loses its item it becomes practically worthless.

    Dusclops is exceedingly easy to play around. People forget that double switches exist too often, and boy are they easy to play on dusclops.

    If necessary I will post more. Don't ban.
     
  9. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    Alright, I've been playing with dusclops for a while before posting so I can thoroughly analyze it and post an appropriate analyse of it.

    Dusclops is set up fodder for a few pokemon, saying it is "extreme set up fodder" is hugely inaccurate and just plain ignorant.
    The set I run, and will be referring to throughout this post, is:

    F.U.G. (Dusclops) (F) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 112 Def / 144 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Seismic Toss

    I'll now explain what his purpose is and how he accomplishes it, and his impact on the nu metagame. His job is to stop most pokemon in the tier dead in their tracks. Yeah. There are PLENTY of pokemon that can set up on it, but the same is said for ferrothorn and gligar in uu and ou. The problem is, you can set up to +3 with your altaria, hit clops, and do like 60%, then die. There's no need for clops to will o wisp on your sub, because clops takes your hits more then well enough. Clops takes a +4 gear grind from klingklang without even having a +def nature and max investment (252 +4 Atk Klinklang (+Atk) Gear Grind vs 252 HP/112 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 38.38% - 45.77% (3 hits to KO) ), I wanted answers to fighting types, namely sawk, but dusclops entirely shuts sawk down, in fact, I've seen people run knock off on sawk just because they can't touch dusclops. (not a bad idea honestly, seeing as you don't NEED ice punch and knock off hits tangela as well). Your life orb charizard's flamethrower that everyone brought up? 252 SpAtk Life Orb Charizard Flamethrower vs 252 HP/144 SpDef Eviolite Dusclops (+SpDef) : 27.46% - 33.1% (4 hits to KO). Dusclops shouldn't be attacking charizard past 30% unless he can live the blaze boosted one as well, all he has to do is rest and rest as you use up all 12 of your flamethrower, which brings me onto his abillity pressure. Pressure seems like a bad abillity, but on a pokemon like dusclops, it becomes incredible. Your 8 fire blasts become 4. Your 8 hydro pumps become 4. Your 24 flamethrowers become 12. Claydol CAN spin on dusclops, running a trick ring target set, which is incredibly unique and interesting and does work if it tricks the right target, taking its eviolite and allowing it to spin at the same damn time, but will not always work. People can double switch on your dusclops switch in, but now we're going into predictions when is a gray area. Your clops user can easily predict your double switch just as well. Dusclops is far from unbreakable, but he stops too many things on both sides too well. Now for his downsides, he has 2 weaknesses, to ghost and dark. Ghost type pokemon/moves aren't incredibly common in any tier, more so in NU;However, Dark is incredibly prevalent in NU due to the pink blob known as majin buu Musharna. Absol, Houndoom, Skunktank, Drapion, and Afro's Bitch (Mandibuzz). Absol doesn't like switching in unless it carries lum berry, but then you can just burn again because clops can easily take 1 night slash, unless you get super luck..y (huehuehue I'm funny) and get a crit. Skunktank should be running lum currently imo as it's best item, and can take the will o, taunt, and pursuit on the switch or crunch if they're feeling real and try to stay in (same with drapion). Mandibuzz is a different story, with access to recovery and taunt, as well as toxic and foul play, it deals with clops rather nicely, just be careful of switching into a will o wisp. However, you need to be aware of the damage you'll be dealing with your adamant max attack crunch. 252 Atk Skuntank (+Atk) Crunch vs 252 HP/112 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 40.14% - 47.18% (3 hits to KO). Yeah.... Clops can also carry EQ from these dark types seeing as 3/5 of them are hit for SE dmg. Houndoom takes will o's easily seeing as it has flash fire, and can set up NP's if its that set as well, then koing with a +2 dark pulse easily, but it will have to be wary of that random EQ. Dusclops is not as bad as I made it out to be earlier, but I think it's just still way too good for NU. It can be crippled by trick and hurt by knock off, but knock off isn't enough to stop the best. Even without eviolite, it takes hits really well. I'm going to say BAN.
     
  10. Trakyan

    Trakyan Member

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    Aside from the fact it is bulky as all hell, it makes spinning near impossible with the spinners we have in NU. Why is this a problem? Because it lets spikestack murder any and every team unless they run trick ring target claydol, and they managed to trick it onto dusclops. One simple prediction and a switch to another pokemon ruins that strategy.
    Now, misdreavus was a fine and all spinblocker and bulky ghost, but it was manageable because it could be broken by the spinners we have in the metagame and relied on pain split to heal itself, which you can use to your advantage and isnt the best healing technique there is. You could even status it if it didnt use heal bell, or put offensive pressure on it so it couldnt heal bell. As a last resort, you could use pursuit.

    Now, lets take a look at dusclops' side of things. First off, it is bulky as all hell. Do you want to know what can 2HKO it?
    252+ Atk Life Orb Skuntank Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 120-143 (42.25 - 50.35%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO
    That is what pursuit would do if dusclops switched out. Very unlikely 2HKO. Now if it doesnt switch out and wilowisps, its all fine and safe from pursuit and skuntank in general for the rest of the match. If skuntank carries a lum berry it cant 2HKO, not at all, not even after stealth rock damage.
    [secret]
    252+ Atk Skuntank Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 92-110 (32.39 - 38.73%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
    [/secret]
    I know you're saying it can taunt the wilowisp, but that gives dusclops a turn to retreat for free, so it adds a hell of a lot of mind games to pursuit and even then dusclops can easily come in later in the match and heal up. That is the strongest physical attack that will hit dusclops super effectively, except something form absol which doesnt run pursuit or taunt. But hey, that thing must easily murder dusclops
    252+ Atk Life Orb Absol Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 151-179 (53.16 - 63.02%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    Nope, and that's only if dusclops attacks. What if it wilowisps to cripple absol? Absol will use night slash.
    252+ Atk Life Orb Absol Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 133-159 (46.83 - 55.98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (69.53% chance to 2HKO without)
    Now keep in mind absol will be switching into dusclops, not the other way around, so it will need to be taking a wilowisp or whatever dusclops will do while it attacks. Also, keep in mind absol in the calculations is adamant, which isnt used much if at all as absol needs to outspeed things, and absol also has 130 base attack and super effective stab, yet the 2HKO isnt guaranteed.

    That so far rules out pursuit trapping to let you spin, and shows dusclops' far superior bulk to misdrevous. It also doesnt care about status due to sleeptalk, and rest also heals much more reliably than pain split.

    For good measure, this is the best the strongest rapid spinner can do against it
    252+ Atk Armaldo (Move 1) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 88-105 (30.98 - 36.97%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
    3HKO at best, assuming you have rocks up and it switches in, and you hit five times each of the three hits with rock blast, and assuming dusclops just twiddles its thumbs and doesnt rest or wilowisp, or wilowisp misses. The odds of all of that? yeah, not gonna happen.

    Also, the only spinners with recovery, which is still just leftovers, are weak to stealth rock, everything else is an eviolite user which will be quickly worn down by hazards and any attacks at all.

    Ohh, on the special side, and for the sake of consistency i'll use the same spread as before, meaning dusclops can only use 4 sdef evs...
    252 SpA Haunter Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 128-152 (45.07 - 53.52%) -- 34.38% chance to 2HKO
    Haunter has stab, super effective and dusclops has minimal investment. And odds are dusclops lives two hits.

    So, seeing as these super effective attacks fail miserably, what hope does a neutral attack have?
    252+ Atk Life Orb Rampardos Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Dusclops: 168-199 (59.15 - 70.07%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    That is what it takes, 165 base attack, adamant, maxed out evs, life orb(without it is it only a 36.33% chance to 2HKO) and a 150 base power stab move to 2HKO dusclops. Crazy, nothing else really has that powerful a stab move or that high an attack stat. And let's face it, rampardos is going down with dusclops here, life orbed recoil, head smash's 50% recoil and one siesmic toss.

    Incredible bulk as a spinblocker and general wall (with either defense able to reach 591 with a positive nature), and given only the insane end of the spectrum, also known as only one pokemon, and super effective hits stand a chance to 2HKO it, it is broken.
    It's spinblocking ability has single handedly make spikestack such a dominant and viable playstyle, and such a dangerous one. I like the more defensive meta rather than the spam of life orbed houndoom, choice band sawk and calm mind musharna from the last one, but spikestack is near impossible to beat, it is doable and i speak from experience, but takes a lot of the skill out of it. I vote ban.

    Actual Suspect Discussion Ends


    Ohh, and here is just for kicks, the most powerful pokemon there is, with it's strongest stab move (only 10 base power less than head smash, so it sits at an amazing 140, 210 with stab) and choice specs as well as a posetive nature....
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Deoxys Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Dusclops: 168-198 (59.15 - 69.71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    Psshh! dont make dusclops laugh.
    What can OHKO dusclops? Even choice band, adamant victini in sun cant always OHKO with v create, the strongest move in the game sitting at 180 base power, 270 after stab and a mind blowing 405 after the sun boost, completely ignoring the choice band boost at the moment. It takes a stab, specs, modest, rain boosted Kyogre's water spout to garrantee an OHKO on duslcops, which quite frankly means it is as bulky as a max/max +nature giratina. This is how giratina fares
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina in rain: 213-252 (42.26 - 50%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    while dusclops, if it were also resistant to water, would take
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyogre Water Spout vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Dusclops in rain: 135-159 (47.53 - 55.98%)
    Not bad for a NU pokemon.

    Finch Edit: Useless part of the post. Keeping it in hide tags because it doesn't contribute to the discussion at all. Refrain from responding to this part, just acknowledge the first portion of the post
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 4, 2014
  11. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    I like the discussion so far, good posting from the majority of you!

    However, lets attempt to refrain from posting calculations followed by "this shows how amazingly bulky Dusclops is, it must be broken." (Or something along those lines.)

    While the Tier Leaders, Cased and I, understand that you all believe it's overwhelmingly bulky, how about we go into further discussion on how it utilizes this bulk to impact the metagame. To draw this point out even more, how that impact could possibly be "broken" or, not "broken".

    The suspect discussion will last at least 10 more days, if not more. So, feel free to argue it out for a bit over a week and then post your final arguments whenever you believe it's a good time.

    Side note: Please keep everything in your posts on-topic. If they aren't, you could be warned or infracted.
     
  12. Big Bad Booty Daddy

    Big Bad Booty Daddy Big Poppa Pump

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    I'll be a bit more harsh. All of your posts seem to just mention about how bulky it is. If someone uses that as their only argument then from now on, they're getting infracted.

    Discuss its effect on the metagame, like Finch states in the post above me. We get how bulky it is. Although, Spinblocking is an effect on the metagame, so kudos to all of you who have mentioned it. We want to hear something more, though. What other effect does it have?
     
  13. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    I'm going to weigh in with Dusclops. Not only is it insanely bulky as pointed out earlier, it makes spike stacking far too prominent. Spinning in BW(2) NU was always tricky, but with Dusclops in it's borderline impossible. The only Pokémon who can effectively spin against it is Foresight Wartortle, which takes away all offensive momentum. Claydol can be stalled out with Will-O-Wisp and Seismic Toss, Armaldo is dead weight after a burn and defensive Torkoal will lose as well. Smash Torkoal is 3HKOd by Seismic Toss after Stealth Rock, and before smashing can at best 3HKO. So if it switches into Seismic Toss after Stealth Rock it will lose. As a result of this, it's extremely difficult to effectively use Pokémon that are weak to Stealth Rock like Charizard.

    So I'm voting Ban
     
  14. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    While I agree that Dusclops beats all Rapid Spinners 1 vs 1 (though it can't spinblock all of them completely, some have ways around it), I want to nuance the statement about spikestacking becoming too prominent. Rapid Spin is not the only way to keep hazards of the field: Taunt stops all kinds of hazards from being setup. Offensive pressure is a great way to prevent your opponent from setting up on you. So stating that Dusclops is directly making spike stacking teams too prominent just by being a decent spinblocker is exaggeration.

    Spinning in NU is not impossible either. Ring Target Claydol is perfectly viable, as not only does it allow Claydol to spin on Ghost types, it also takes away their item which in the case of Dusclops and the more common Misdreavus is very crippling because they lose their Eviolite. Claydol takes minimal damage from entry hazards, being immune to (Toxic) Spikes and resisting Stealth Rock so it doesn't mind the loss of Leftovers as much. Foresight Wartortle sees more use on Stall teams, but is also perfectly viable. Torkoal can use Yawn as Dusclops comes in, forcing it to switch out and let you Rapid Spin or fall asleep. Since sleep turns reset in gen 5, this means that Dusclops will most likely be out of the game for the rest of the match and will eventually be worn down by entry hazards and repeated hits. I don't really get your argument of switching in Shell Smash Torkoal on Dusclops when rocks are up, that seems like a silly thing to do regardless don't you think?

    I don't believe that Dusclops has made such a huge impact on the tier as other people say here. Indeed, Dusclops is a decent spinblocker, but don't forget that when it dropped we also got an excellent spinner in Claydol (by NU standards ofcourse). As I showed, the common Rapid Spinners still have ways to spin even with Dusclops in the tier and spikestacking still suffers from many weaknesses, being that Spikers in NU like Roselia, Ferroseed and Garbodor have barely any offensive presence and are easily threatened out by common threats like Houndoom and Sawk. More often than not, they will not get a chance to get up more than one layer of hazards.

    I also second CasedVictory that people should give other arguments aside from spinblocking and Dusclops' bulk because in my eyes Dusclops hasn't made a major impact with just those assets.
     
  15. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    You said putting clops to sleep shuts it down for rest of the match, and that is just not true. There are plenty of good heal bell pokes in NU, more so with the drop of miltank, to list a few: Miltank, Grumpig, Lickilicky, Ampharos, Musharna are some of the more used ones; there are also plenty of decent uncommon ones that I've been toying around with such as togetic and chinchou, but thats going off topic. Dusclops also can carry sleep talk which is normally does, so saying once it goes to sleep it's shut down is just not a fair assessment of his ability. Roselia has a good base 105, or 100, special attack which can deal pretty nice damage to either sawk or houndoom if they think they can switch in all willynilly, Garboder has a 120 base power move in gunk shot and often carries rock blast so houndoom is a no go and sawk will take a huge hit from gunk shot. Ferroseed can't really do too much damage, ~30% on a switch w/ gyro ball, but it can twave them. Of course, this is only on switches, otherwise all these pokes better switch the fuck out unless they want to get blasted by CB/LO hits. Onto spinblocking, we really shouldn't bring trick ring target into the arguement because 1 person has used it. Foresight wartortle can spin on clops, but is pretty much deadweight outside of spinning. Unlike hitmonchan who has iron fist+high attack, wartortle has I believe 60 base special attack which it pitiful. Spinning in NU was hard enough when the only 1 spinner wasn't weak to rocks, being an NFE and weak on top of that. Everyone is also saying "oh we have 2 pokemon that can spin on clops and he'll get worn down by hazards" but that arguement goes both ways. Couldn't your opponent have spun away your hazards as well? I know you don't want us just bring up his bulk here, but it is something that can't be ignored when he has base 130 defenses WITHOUT AN EVIOLITE. We're talking the bulk of gligar/mantyke in one poke along with ghost typing. I'll add more to this post later, in a hurry.
     
  16. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Well Equipping Claydol with a Ring Target makes it susceptible to Electric Attacks, and it very much misses the leftovers recovery, so is definitely not a great set to run, and it has to give up a move to run Trick.

    Dusclops most definitely is making Spike Stack teams more prominent and difficult to handle, since the only guaranateed way to remove hazards is to run Foresight Wartortle, which sucks momentum away from offensive teams, Trick Ring Target Claydol is a gimmick at best and Yawn Torkoal? Dusclops runs sleep talk so doesn't care. Armaldo and Tentacool have no chance of breaking through it either.

    It isn't as easy as just taunting something setting up hazards, because that means you have to have your taunter in Vs the Hazard Setter, Offensive Pressure is a fairly good way, but it is extremely difficult to stop Claydol setting up Rocks or Ferroseed setting up 1 layer of Spikes throguhout a match.

    Ferroseed, Roselia and Garbodor all do have an offensive presence, Ferroseed's Gyro Ball, Iron Barbs and Leech Seed make things very wary of switching in or attacking, Roselia deals decent damage to anyhting that isn't Steel type or Specially Bulky with Recovery, and Garbodor hits hard with Gunk Shot and has good Type Coverage with Drain Punch, of course they all have specific threats that can come in/set up on them, but for the most part they aren't pokemon that are easy to switch into. Also any Spike Stacking team should carry a phazer to get rid of any pokes that attempt to set up.

    Also there aren't any arguments other than it's Incredible bulk or it's ability to Spinblock very relaibly throughout a whole game, what should we focus on, It's Attacking Stats? It's Versatility? We should only be focussing on the things that make it suspect worthy.
     
  17. Daybreak

    Daybreak can't touch this

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    It's basically the same reason as to why Giratina is in ubers. Both users are ridiculously tough to take down and makes rapid spinning impossible in that tier as well as nu. To ignore such a threat like that in ubers is basically gonna be someone's downfall.

    Also I know this is a bit gimmicky but dusclops is able to pull of a mono attacking calm mind set as well and it preforms very well actually. I have used it in both nu and lu and it is surprisingly good and is able to take down some of the main counters to dusclops like musharna and misdreavus. Once the normal type goes down dusclops can set up and sweep with relative ease.
     
  18. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    OK, Ring Target Claydol? First off that set has less than 1% usage (source) and when you give Claydol a Ring Target you forfeit Claydol's Electric immunity and possibly its Ground one too (does Ring Target negate immunities bought on by abilities?), you also give up passive recovery from Leftovers which Claydol will sorely miss.

    Pokémon who don't care about a Burn can set up on Dusclops (CM Musharna, NP Houndoom), and dedicated stallbreakers like Mandibuzz can cripple it with Taunt and stall it out with Toxic. Dusclops is by no means unbreakable, but I still think it needs to go, chiefly because of how well it can spinblock - only 2 spinners can reliably beat it with one being dead weight when it's not spinning (Foresight Wartortle) and the other being a fairly poor set (Shell Smash Torkoal). Misdreavus was banned for a time, and that's not as bulky as Dusclops (you can't talk about Dusclops without mentioning its bulk, its one of its most defining features).
     
  19. MrLumber

    MrLumber Member

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    Its weird to me that the inability to rapid spin immediately is such a problem. I mean frillish and missy can both run roughly equivalent sets and still beat all the spinners. What's more armaldo, and potentially wartortle (I can't remember), can run knock off, making dealing with clops easier. Furthermore, clops is obvious set up fodder for much of the tier, and can be an easy victim to stall breakers. Claydol can also run heal block and spec A if you REALLY just want to kill that dusclops, seriously people are assuming the basic support set can beat stall, its just silly. I also don't get how people are saying clops is versatile, it practically has one set, with a few gimmicks which can be somewhat useful, but rely a lot on surprise factor. Yeah pursuit doesn't kill it, but that seriously just limits you in ONE way.

    Its really confusing to me how people are having this much trouble with something that is so utterly predictable.
     
  20. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    I, as with Lumber genuinely do not understand how you can view Dusclops as broken. A Pokémon with immunity to 0 forms of residual damage, no leftovers recovery, one primary set (with 2 slight variants). If it runs Night Shade it's hilarious fodder for things like SubSD Bouff or Guts Ursaring, and if it runs Stoss it loses to sub ghosts. Ok SubSD Bouff and Ursaring are not too common but you also don't need something Dusclops cannot touch in any way to beat it all you have to do is get it to rest (which with hazards, potential status, Leech Seed, attacks etc etc is very easy) then force it out. The sleep mechanics can basically kill it for you, not to mention Knock Off making it infinitely less bulky and easier to kill. Dusclops proves itself a counter to Sawk and fighting types basically, it doesn't even hard counter Wartortle or Claydol (TrickDol leaves it crying even if it's just a choice Trick, Wartortle can run Knock Off and Forseight even, Armaldo can even predict and Knock Off if it wants). Also double switching hurts Dusclops more than most other bulky Pokémon since it lacks lefties recovery and HAS to rest unless it's using Pain Split then it's completely donked by status of any kind.

    252 SpAtk Choice Specs Charizard (+SpAtk) Overheat vs 252 HP/196 SpDef Eviolite Dusclops (+SpDef) : 48.94% - 58.1% (2-3 hits to KO)
    252 Atk Choice Band Emboar (+Atk) Flare Blitz vs 252 HP/60 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 55.28% - 65.49% (2 hits to KO)
    252 SpAtk Life Orb Samurott (+SpAtk) Hydro Pump vs 252 HP/196 SpDef Eviolite Dusclops (+SpDef) : 36.27% - 42.96% (3 hits to KO)
    252 Atk Guts Swellow Brave Bird vs 252 HP/60 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 39.44% - 46.83% (3 hits to KO)
    252 Atk Absol Night Slash vs 252 HP/60 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 40.85% - 49.3% (3 hits to KO) (non LO)

    For a Pokémon reliant on rest and with no leftovers those are big hits to take from wallbreakers. It's not unbreakable by any means.
     
  21. Big Bad Booty Daddy

    Big Bad Booty Daddy Big Poppa Pump

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    Dusclops also gets access to Earthquake, I'm not sure why nobody has mentioned the Earthquake set because you're able to beat every Pursuit trapper/Emboar/Klinklang, all huge physically attacking Pokemon. It requires a bit more support, but it's a good set if you run Earthquake over SToss/Night Shade. You need to have a reliable mon who takes care of SubSD Sawsbuck or something.

    Just something I felt like throwing in.
     
  22. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    No one said it is not unbreakable, but you just showed how hard to break it is. You're taking the tiers strongest attackers, and 1 of which is hitting for SE damage, an other using a move that cuts his attack in half, etc and they don't 2hko (outside of cb emboar). He isn't meant to be taking cb flare blitz or SE night slashes from emboar and absol, unless fully physically invested. He takes hits from swellow well enough to the point of being able to take 2 and rest, during this time swellow will have taken significant damage from recoil as well as poison/burn. Zard won't 2hko because he'll be at -2, samurott doesn't 2hko and is using a 70% accurate move. Knock off hurts it, but he still has amazing bulk with his 130 defenses on both sides of the spectrum. Wartortle doesn't have the room to carry knock off and won't help it beat clops, neither will knock off on armaldo. It will help other team members kill it, but they will have to sacrifice being burned as well as a move slot that they can't afford to give up. And for the love of god stop bringing up trick ring target Claydol, it has less than 2% of claydols usage, which is already only about 6%, so yeah it's REALLLLLY low. Also, if you see someone switch a claydol into your clops, they're not doing it because they want to hit you with a psychic... "He's weak to hazards" So is the fucking specs charizard that everyone's bringing up, you know, the only that has 3 switch ins and doesn't even 2hko? Clops should run seismic toss over night shade, "sub ghosts beat it" all 2 of them? sub missy and subpunch noir, both incredibly rare. Sub SD bouff is a fun poke, but it's stab does not hit clops, leaving it with EQ or stone edge or Megahorn. Megahorn is resisted, and eq/edge won't be doing much (to clops), even after an SD. Also, are you really using heal block as a mention here? Now, I'm fully aware things beat clops, but clops doesn't have to switch into things that beat it, does it? Also, if you run heal bell alongside clops, there goes the sleep turn argument.

    Clops can run EQ (also shadow punch, shadow sneak, ice beam and other great moves), which is something to be wary of, but don't expect it tbh.
     
  23. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Ring target dol is fun. Not common but Specs Trick hurts clops almost as much. You asume it impossible that Clops can be predicted. When a spinner is looking to spin its a safe bet that clops is comming in. It is very predictable. Those figures I listed would be pitiful IF Clops could recover without Rest. It can't do that. Rest makes irt prone to being forced out and unable to heal again. With perfect prediction and no rest turns sure it would be broken as fuck.
     
  24. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

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    You might want to revisit these calcs.

    252 SpAtk Choice Specs Charizard (+SpAtk) Overheat vs 252 HP/196 SpDef Eviolite Dusclops (+SpDef) : 48.94% - 58.1% (2-3 hits to KO)
    That's the first hit. The second hit does 24.47% - 29.05% (easy math) and then 12.24% - 14.53% for the hit after. Adding those together you get 85.65% - 101.68% in three hits, which isn't always a 3HKO (even with SR up). Dusclops proceeds to Seismic Toss in the meantime resulting in a KO if the 3HKO doesn't happen.

    252 Atk Choice Band Emboar (+Atk) Flare Blitz vs 252 HP/60 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 55.28% - 65.49% (2 hits to KO)
    Flare Blitz gives 1/3 recoil. If Dusclops has 284 Hp, that's around 95 Hp inflicted to itself if it scores the KO PLUS 100 damage from Seismic Toss.
    100(100 + 95)/420 = 46.43% Hp lost in battle if both at full health.

    252 SpAtk Life Orb Samurott (+SpAtk) Hydro Pump vs 252 HP/196 SpDef Eviolite Dusclops (+SpDef) : 36.27% - 42.96% (3 hits to KO)
    I won't be the prick that says Hydro Pump can miss, but I will say that doing this is suicide with Seismic Toss's fixed damage.
    Seismic Toss does 30.21% damage each turn and Life Orb inflicts 10% recoil each attack.
    If all three Hydro Pumps hit along with the two sub-sequential Seismic Tosses, that's 2(30.21) + 3(10) = 60.42 + 30 = 90.42% damage onto Sammurot, so it must be at full health AND hit with all three Hydro Pumps in order to win

    252 Atk Guts Swellow Brave Bird vs 252 HP/60 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 39.44% - 46.83% (3 hits to KO)
    Swellow receives average 12.5% recoil from the item each turn and 1 Seismic Toss does 38.31%
    12.5 + 38.31 = 50.81% damage at the end of the turn not including Brave Bird recoil.
    Swellow loses every time.

    252 Atk Absol Night Slash vs 252 HP/60 Def Eviolite Dusclops: 40.85% - 49.3% (3 hits to KO) (non LO)
    Burn it and you have a useless Absol.

    Of course, this is all assuming that Dusclops has full health, which is unlikely, but you see the point that it's possible to get rid of, but it is WAAAAAAY too hard to get rid of.

    The situation is either sacrifice one or two of your powerhouses to kill it OR use up a ton of resources just to attempt to hinder it. It also makes spinning plain impossible without a proper way of getting past it.

    And people were complaining about Blissey in UU being an "indestructible supporter." >_>

    I haven't been in NU in a while now, but even I can see this should be banned.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2013
  25. Liarliarpantsonfire

    Liarliarpantsonfire Member

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    You missed what Weavile wanted to point out with those calcs. You even quoted that part but you still missed it somehow: Dusclops has to rely on Rest to recover any health whatsoever. This means that factoring in Stealth Rock, it can only come in once on any of those pokes. Dusclops has to use Rest so fast, and is then unable to heal itself before waking up. It's forced out easily, and can't switch in anymore reliably because hazards and repeated hits wear it down quickly.

    There's no comparing it to Blissey whatsoever: Blissey had access to Wish, Softboiled and even Rest + Natural Cure to keep itself healthy at all times at no cost. Blissey also had Leftovers coupled with an extremely high HP stat, and didn't worry about status thanks to Natural Cure or even Aromatherapy . Dusclops has to use a very unreliable way to heal itself being Rest-Talk, and is very vulnerable to passive damage.

    I recommend playing more in the current NU metagame before making assumptions, as the theorymon is strong.
     
  26. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

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    Ehhhhh. I guess I went a bit far on the comparison. Scratch that :x

    My point is that it takes too much effort to get rid of Dusclops, not that it's unbreakable. Hazards and Toxic are indeed factors that hinder Dusclops and I am not arguing that, but the fact of the matter is that it takes two or three Pokemon just to get rid of one.

    I'll go back to NU and test this out (don't know why I stopped to be frank), but it still seems like an unbalanced addition to the tier for me.
     
  27. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    The theorymon that "you can easily force clops out" is just as strong in your post, he posted calcs of the tiers strongest attackers and only 1 was a 2hko. Switching out =1 turn, risk of stoss/burn from sleep talk, then he lives a move, then rests next turn. Heal bell is also a move, which fixes rest. Hazards are wearing clops down because they can't be spun away, you know, due to clops being in the tier (also most of the spinners are pretty shit tbh)..
    Clops's presence in nu is detrimental because of several factors: Spinblocking (which is hard enough, although wartortle and now claydol are decent/good), Walling capabilities, His ability to burn everything that isn't a fire type, and pressure, which turns your samurott which wouldn't be that bad because if it gets knocked into torrent, it's popping 50% a hit, but it would only have 4 hits, if it hit them all, and gets stalled by rest. Everyone is saying, oh, Clops will rest and then you force it out. With what do you want to safely do that? Because I'm sure as hell not bringing in my drapion/skunktank/vigoroth/golbat/Whatever into a potential sleeptalk of a will o wisp. Roar/whirlwind work, but the clops will have 2 sleep talks on you to burn/stoss. Yes, his only recovery is rest and pain split which are far from desirable, but they work alongside other pokemon like clerics. Honestly, heal bell/aromatherapy are great moves and are pretty common. You said that he needs to play more of the current metagame before making assumptions, I'd like to tell you to do the same. I remember you (maybe it wasn't but the name was pretty similar) seeing a game with 2 clops on either side, do you remember how it went? Clops needs to go.

    (Sorry for the poor quality of this post, not down with yet)
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2013
  28. Afro Smash

    Afro Smash Mfw I'm living the Australian dream

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    Those calcs are pretty irrelevant because they just show that Dusclops can withstand the most powerful attacks in the tier and STAB super effective hits, Emboar and Absol are the only 2 on that list that are likely to beat Dusclops 1 on 1, Swellow Kills itself, and Zard and Samurott get PP stalled/miss. But the point is people aren't slapping Dusclops on their team to wall CB Emboar or Specs Charizard, it's primary role is a Normal/Fighting type Counter, Status spreader and Spin blocker, and fact it can hold up well vs these pokemon is just a bonus.

    As for it not being able to heal up, Dusclops is only seen on Spike stacking teams and Stall teams because it saps too much momentum away from Offensive teams, and this means he is very often paired with a Heal Bell user and/or a Wish Passer, so can remain healthy and awake throughout a match. Also in an actual game this is how it works, Dusclops is weakened and then uses Rest, now you have to either be able to 3HKO with the pokemon you have in, or switch out and be able to 2HKO Dusclops, and if you can't it's just going to wake up and either start Burning things or Rest again and stall you out with Pressure. And it isn't dead weight whilst it's asleep, It's very dangerous switching any Physical Attacker in as Dusclops is as likely to pull Will o Wisp as Scald is to burn, and Seismic Toss deals consistent damage.

    Ferroseed and Dusclops dropping has given Stall/Hazard Stack an incredible boost, I'll test some more but right now it's looking like Dusclops makes it a little too strong.

    Or maybe Ferroseed is the one we should be looking at :o

    Hehe Bwoi
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2013
  29. Big Bad Booty Daddy

    Big Bad Booty Daddy Big Poppa Pump

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    It's not.

    If anybody even decides to post about a possible suspect of another Pokemon when discussing Dusclops from this point on, automatic infraction.

    Finch edit:
    Just to clarify on Cased's point, he means in this thread. Fell free to use the potential suspect thread. However, until this suspect is concluded, we likely won't be suspecting anything else.
    You still cannot discuss other Pokemon being suspected in this thread, not go off topic at all.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 4, 2013
  30. MetalGross

    MetalGross gems…

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    Hi, time to revive.
    Dusclops' stats are really bad, apart from its excellent base 130 Defenses. These Defenses get boosted even further by Eviolite, getting 446 minimum and 591 maximum. This makes its defenses to an almost stunning Base 200. So how can something like that drop to the depths of NU? Here is the answer: a pathetic base 40HP and literally no offenses or speed. It is a sitting duck, and its HP is so low that even if you invest 252 EVs in it, it will still be 3HKOd by Night Shade.

    Yes Dusclops can tank almost every strong hit in the tier, but after it uses Rest it is the hugest set-up fodder imaginable. Altough you can still click Sleep Talk, there's only a 1/3 chance you get the move you want. Dusclops also isn't a fit in poke, you can only use it on a couple of team styles. Dusclops does not fit on SpikeStack offense, since it saps away momentum faster than you can say the word momentum. If you want a Spinblocker on SpikeStack offense, use Dusknoir or Offensive Missy. Really, the only place where Dusclops is comfortable on is Stall. But even there it is not impossible to beat. Taunt, Whirlwind, Hazards etc can all easily weaken Dusclops to the point where it dies. Dusclops gets hit by all entry hazards without having Lefties recovery, so that's a nice 12,5% every time it switches in and it can get more if you use Spikes. Dusclops is vulnerable to Toxic and Burns, because it slowly takes all of his health, forcing it to rest. And like stated earlier, if Dusclops rests it will be very, very difficult to wake up.

    But I think we can all agree that Dusclops is really good at what it does. It can easily take on all Fighting and Normal types (even Bouffalant!), and it can outstall a lot of defensive pokemons one on one. But really, Defensive Pokemons can Taunt it, Phaze it, status it, and offensive pokemons just have to keep attacking until it breaks down, and there are set-up sweepers that can easily defeat Dusclops (e.g. Musharna).

    I also don't agree how Dusclops is unspinnable. Yes, Claydol can't get through it, but Claydol can't spin on Dusknoir or Misdreavus either. Wartortle can spin on Dusclops and can Toxic it. SS Torkoal can spin on Dusclops. The somewhat gimmicky Ring Target + Trick Claydol can spin on it. Or you could go the different way, and avoid hazards from getting up with a Natu. I know switching into SRers with Natu requires difficult predictions, but if you're worried about SpikeStack, Natu shuts down Ferroseed completely.

    Personally I don't think Dusclops is broken.
     
  31. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    AFTER DISCUSSING THIS WITH CASED LAST NIGHT, WE ELECTED TO BAN DUSCLOPS. HE WILL POST SOON WITH FURTHER INFORMATION AND REASONING.
    HOWEVER, BAN IS IN EFFECT AS OF NOW SO IT IS NOT ALLOWED IN LTT ROUND 2 AND THE TOP TOUR ROUND 1.

    EDIT: DON'T BE LIKE THIS:
    (20:34:03) Afro Smash: yay u banned clops
    (20:34:04) Afro Smash: woop
    (20:34:07) Afro Smash: now sawk
    (20:34:10) Afro Smash: then mush
    (20:34:14) Afro Smash: then good nu
    (20:34:15) Afro Smash: fanks
    (20:34:15) Daybreak joined the channel.
    (20:34:19) bugzinator: houndoom
    (20:34:21) bugzinator: 1st
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2013
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