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[Final] Suicune

Discussion in 'Gen 5 UU Analyses' started by Alfalfa, Oct 12, 2013.

  1. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    Alfalfa
    This analysis still mentions Mamoswine (who is now banned), Cradily (who has lost its place in UU), and Water Absorb Quagsire (Gastrodon is better).

    http://wiki.pokemon-online.eu/wiki/Suicune

    [​IMG]

    ==General==
    Having been an OU staple for three generations straight, Suicune is a very solid Pokemon in UU. With impressive bulk and speed, Suicune is very capable, and is good at what it does. It can fill a couple of decent offensive and defensive roles for teams that need them. Combine that with a decent typing and access to Calm Mind, and Suicune is a definite threat.

    However, there are still some fatal flaws that Suicune has to deal with. Roserade and Raikou are a pain, and they run around everywhere in UU. The Sleep mechanics in Generation 5 has hindered the viability of RestTalk, making it much more difficult to successfully pull off. Finally, there are several strong attackers in this generation that can override its bulk, making it much more of a liability than ever before. Despite these flaws, Suicune is still a good Pokemon that should not be ignored.

    ==RestTalk==
    {{set
    |name=Crocune (Mono-attacker)
    |item=Leftovers
    |ability=Pressure
    |ev=252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Def
    |iv=0 Atk
    |nature=Bold
    |move1=Rest
    |move2=Sleep Talk
    |move3=Scald
    |move4=Roar}}

    Suicune still has the sheer bulk to pull off a RestTalk set, even with the conditions pushed against her favor. Pure Water-typing has only two weaknesses, Electric and Grass, only one of which can be seen as a physical attack in UU. As a result, Suicune can check several threats, such as Victini, Darmanitan, Rhyperior, Azumarill, Sharpedo, and so on. However, Suicune still has issues stomaching high-powered attacks, such as +1 Heracross' Megahorn, or Mienshao's Hi Jump Kick. Scald is Suicune's STAB of choice to avoid being Taunt bait, and with the 30 burn chance, can prevent certain attackers from muscling through it. Roar is a phazing move that prevents opponents from setting up on it, and Rest + Sleep Talk is Suicune's only method of recovery.

    The EVs maximize Suicune's physical bulk, allowing it to perform at its best defensively.

    ===Synergy===
    Suicune has major issues with the sleep mechanics of this generation, and thus, wants Heal Bell support. Umbreon is a good candidate for this, also having access to Wish as well, while forming a strong defensive core with Suicune. Entry hazards are never to stomach, but Suicune does not synergize with the most Rapid Spinner, Blastoise, at all; thus, Hitmontop is a good teammate instead, still packing some of the key traits that Blastoise has. Bronzong also has good synergy with Suicune, being able to take on Grass-types that trouble it, whereas Suicune can handle Fire-types in return. Zapdos also synergizes well with Suicune, being able to take Grass-types for it, whereas Suicune can handle Ice-type attacks. Zapdos also provides a decent check to Crobat, who is a nightmare for Suicune to face. Suicune also appreciates entry hazard support to take advantage of using Roar. Bronzong, Roserade, and Rhyperior can lay down entry hazards for Suicune to take advantage of.

    ==Offensive Calm Mind==
    {{set
    |name=Offensive Calm Mind
    |item=Leftovers|item2=Life Orb
    |ability=Pressure
    |ev=252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    |iv=3 Atk/30 SAtk
    |nature=Timid
    |move1=Calm Mind
    |move2=Hydro Pump|move21=Surf
    |move3=Ice Beam
    |move4=Hidden Power Electric}}

    This is Suicune's best set in the metagame. With good bulk and speed, and Calm Mind boosting its average average Special Attack, Suicune can prove to be a useful sweeper. After a Calm Mind or two, Suicune can rampage through all but a few Pokemon. Hydro Pump is Suicune's most powerful STAB, and can hit anything that is not resistant or immune to it hard. However, Surf is more accurate, and has more PP, but much less power. Ice Beam hits Grass-types that resist Suicune's Water STAB, and secures an OHKO on Flygon. Hidden Power Electric allows Suicune to hit opposing Water-types, especially Empoleon, hard. The EVs are straightforward, maximizing speed and power. The IVs minimize Foul Play damage while still being aligned for a full-powered Hidden Power Electric.

    ===Synergy===
    This set has problems with three Pokemon in particular: Snorlax, Umbreon, and Gastrodon. Virizion can handle all three of them, and Metagross can easily wear them down. Victini can lure in Snorlax and hit it with a Banded Brick Break, or Trick a Choice Scarf onto it. Zapdos can lure in and KO Gastrodon with Hidden Power Grass, disposing of it before it can be of trouble to Suicune. Specially Defensive Empoleon is not always going to be 3HKOed by Hidden Power Electric without Spikes or Life Orb into the equation. Virizion can also handle Empoleon, but Dugtrio can also trap Empoleon, though it has issues switching into it. Roserade is also a good teammate should you choose to run Spikes, as it can handle the Grass and Electric-types that switch into Suicune, as well as appreciating Suicune's ability to switch into Fire and Electric-type attacks. Entry hazards help put additional pressure on the opponent; Bronzong, Rhyperior, and Roserade can lay down hazards for Suicune to make use of.

    ==Crocune (Mono-attacker)==
    {{set
    |name=Crocune (Mono-attacker)
    |item=Leftovers
    |ability=Pressure
    |ev=252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Def
    |iv=0 Atk
    |nature=Bold
    |move1=Calm Mind
    |move2=Scald
    |move3=Rest
    |move4=Sleep Talk}}

    Although the power creep and the change in sleep mechanics have hindered the viability of this set, it is still a decent bulky sweeper that can prove to be difficult to take down. The idea to get as many as Calm Minds in as possible using Suicune's high defenses, and then sweep away. Rest + Sleep Talk is Suicune's only method of recovery, though the adjusted sleep mechanics makes it much more difficult to pull off. Scald is Suicune's STAB attack, and the only attack it will be using; its burn chance makes it a better choice over Surf, as this allows it to potentially burn an opponent and cut their attack power in half, which is well worth a little less power.

    ===Synergy===
    This set is completely walled by Gastrodon, Snorlax and Umbreon still give it problems, and now Suicune has to deal with opposing Water and Grass-types, such as Roserade and its fellow Suicune. Virizion can set up on everything that walls Suicune, sans Roserade, whom can be handled by Snorlax or Victini. Suicune also needs some defensive support, such as Rapid Spin support, and something to compensate the mediocre sleep mechanics. Umbreon has Heal Bell to wake up Suicune early, and can also pass decent-sized Wishes to it. Since Blastoise does not synergize well with Suicune, Hitmontop is a good teammate for Rapid Spinning, as its access to Foresight allows it to spin on anything, even Ghost-types. Entry hazards come in handy, especially against Umbreon; Roserade, Bronzong, and Rhyperior are once again good teammates to set them up.

    ==Other Options==
    Suicune's movepool is pretty small, and thus, does not have many other options available. Hidden Power Grass can be used if Gastrodon is too big of a problem. A Substitute + Calm Mind set can be used to allow Suicune to protect itself from most revenge killers, but it really does not appreciate detracting from its beloved HP stat. Suicune has some utility moves in its arsenal, such as Toxic, Protect, and Reflect, that can be used. Finally, a Choice item looks like a good idea on paper, but it better left to stronger special attackers, such as Empoleon and Raikou.

    ==Checks and Counters==
    Snorlax and Umbreon are the best, most common counters out there. They can take any of Suicune's attacks and start setting up on it, though Snorlax dislikes an untimely Scald burn. Gastrodon can take anything that Suicune has, except for Hidden Power Grass. Raikou is faster than Suicune and can set up Calm Minds on it. Grass-types, such as Roserade, Virizion, and Shaymin do not appreciate switching into Ice Beam, but can handle Suicune very well. Strong attackers, such as Heracross and Chandelure, can easily muscle through Suicune. Finally, Sableye is a pain; although it cannot switch into any of Suicune's attacks, it can prevent it from using either Rest or Sleep Talk.

    Skeleton
    [Secret]
    ==General==
    *An OU staple for three generations straight, Suicune is a very solid pokemon in UU. With impressive bulk and speed, Suicune is very capable and good at what it does.
    *Can fill a couple of different offensive and defensive roles
    *Roserade and Raikou are a pain
    *Gen 5 RestTalk mechanics are pathetic
    *Several strong attackers can override its bulk

    ==Offensive Calm Mind==
    Suicune @ Leftovers / Life Orb
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 3 Atk / 30 SAtk
    - Calm Mind
    - Hydro Pump / Surf
    - Ice Beam
    - Hidden Power [Electric]

    *Good speed and bulk makes this set viable
    *Calm Mind up
    *STAB Hydro Pump hits very hard, but Surf is more accurate, albeit much weaker
    *Ice Beam and HP Electric are for coverage
    *3 Attack IVs minimize Foul Play damage while still being aligned for usage of Hidden Power Electric.

    ===Synergy===
    *Metagross can wear down some of Suicune's counters
    *Victini can lure in Snorlax and hit it with Banded Brick Break or Trick a Choice Scarf onto it
    *Gastrodon walls this set; Zapdos lures in and KOes Gastrodon with Hidden Power Grass


    ==Crocune (Mono-attacker)==
    Suicune @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Calm Mind
    - Scald
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk

    *Effective bulky sweeper
    *Despite this gen's impairing sleep mechanics, Suicune can still pull through.
    *The gift of Scald has also granted Suicune more set-up opportunities
    *Repeatedly use Calm Mind, and sweep away with Scald.
    *When you are low on health, Rest away, and use Sleep Talk to allow you to do something while sleeping.

    *This set does not like Snorlax or Umbreon
    *Completely walled by Gastrodon
    *Virizion handles everything that walls Suicune
    *Umbreon has Heal Bell to wake up Suicune early, and can pass decent-sized Wishes to it.
    *Hitmontop can Rapid Spin away entry hazards that would wear down Suicune.

    *Still bulky enough to run a RestTalk set
    *STAB Scald allows Suicune to cripple physical attackers like Metagross and Mienshao
    *Roar for phazing out set-up sweepers
    *RestTalk is Suicune's only method of recovery

    ===Synergy===
    *Umbreon has Heal Bell to wake up Suicune early, and can pass Wishes to it as well
    *Bronzong has good synergy with Suicune
    *Does not synergize well with Blastoise; try Hitmontop instead for a Rapid Spinner

    *lol
    *Hidden Power Grass can be used to hit Gastrodon
    *Substitute + Calm Mind can be used, but Suicune does not appreciate the reduction in HP very much.
    *Toxic, Protect, Reflect
    *Choice item, but Suicune is weak without Calm Mind, and that is better left to other special attackers, such as Empoleon and Raikou.

    *Snorlax and Umbreon
    *Gastrodon
    *Raikou
    *Roserade, Virizion, and Shaymin
    *Wallbreakers like Banded Heracross and Specs Chandelure maul Suicune
    *Sableye is a pain, being able to prevent Suicune from setting up or using RestTalk, but will not appreciate taking a boosted attack.
    [/Secret]
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2013
  2. Sakuya Izayoi

    Sakuya Izayoi love to hate

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    Reuniclus is OU again.
     
  3. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    Thanks for clarifying that
     
  4. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    Choice Item and Tailwind don't belong in the OO.

    A Substitute + Calm Mind set with Max HP and either SAtk or Speed invested (or both) would be arguably worthy of a mention (at least an OO.)
    I personally think speed is necessary for things like Togekiss, Specs Chandelure, and Adamant Heracross.
    It would be Max HP / Max Speed. Hydro/Surf-IceBeam/HPElec-Sub-CM.
     
  5. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    Suicune's movepool is pretty barren. I will get rid of Tailwind, but not everything in OO is always going to be a good set (think Energy Ball Jellicent or Choice Specs Nidoking). Sub + Calm Mind detracts from Suicune's beloved HP stat, but I will put it into OO.
     
  6. Xinc

    Xinc Time for Oras?

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    Approved, though I would prefer if you put resttalk first as it definitely takes advantage over Suicune's good defenses. I believe it is also more commonly seen, though you are right in saying the sleep mechanics mess her strat a bit. Also mention that Suicune + Umbreon combo is a powerful stally combination. Suicune appreciates hazards for all sets, as it enables Calm Mind Suicunes to put pressure, and resttalk suicune to take advantage of roar + hazard damage.
     
  7. Alfalfa

    Alfalfa Underappreciated

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    Understood